Katherine Heiny, EARLY MORNING RISER: A Novel

[1:32]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, moms don't have time to read books. And speaking of I have two of my own books coming out this spring and summer. Princess Charming is a picture book, which debuts on April 19, and A Memoir of Love, Loss, and Literature comes out on July 1, it is truly a labor of love. I hope you'll preorder, order, and join me on tour as I go across the country. You can find out more at zibbyowens.com or bookendsmemoir.com. And you can follow me on Instagram at zibby owens because I always post about everything. Enjoy the show.

[2:11]Katherine Heiny: Katherine Heiney is the author of Early Morning Riser, a novel. She's also the author of Single, Carefree Mellow, a collection of short stories. Her fiction has been published in The New Yorker, the Atlantic, Plowshares, Glimmer Train, and many other places. She lives in Washington DC with her husband and children. Welcome, Katherine. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Early Morning Riser. Thank you. It's my pleasure. Are you an early morning riser, by the way? No, no, not at all. Not at all. Am if left to my own devices, I go later and later and later until I'm just like around the clock. Like switched to be nocturnal. Yeah. Nice. I had a third child when my twins were like seven and a half or six or something. Anyway, they were like and they were learning about nocturnal and diurnal in school. And they're like, mommy, we think you're actually nocturnal. I was like, It does feel that way these days. But anyway. Okay. Early Morning Riser. Please tell everybody. I'm sure so many people listening have already read this because this book has been so successful and amazing. But tell listeners what it's about. Oh, I'm really bad at elevator pitches, but it's about a school teacher who moves to a small town and becomes involved with the local lothario, and then a car accident that changes all their lives. And I would guess it's about acceptance and family, which makes it sound really boring. But that's as close as I could come to saying what it's about. I mean, to have better elevator pitches. I think that's pretty good. I mean, I I do also feel like it's like this quest for for love, but it's so funny. I mean, the way you write about it, it's like the whole tone of it and the way Duncan comes in and out of Jane's life over time is just it's just perfect. She has this kind of laid back feeling about it. Like, she's so passionate, and then she's okay with what happens. And I don't know. I like the trajectory of her her passion, I guess. Not saying that very well, but do you know what When I'm trying to I started writing it, it was just gonna be a story that happened in real time. But then I kept realizing that I wanted to see Jane over several years and especially her relationship with Duncan. And like that first part of the relationship was so passionate. And then, and I think in the end, she doesn't get what she wants, but what she gets is so much better. Which is the way a lot of life goes. My son made me watch a TED Talk about video games, where it says that video games are good life preparation because instead of going from A to B, you have to like fall into a river and climb a mountain and hide from bad guys and earn your life back. So, it's like a jagged line. And that's how that's life preparation, which totally didn't make me approve of video games anymore. I'm But like, that is that is the best justification for playing a video game. I love I love the tenacity of that argument. But I think that's very actually very true of life. And I think very few people go from a to b a to z. This is my life. It was perfect all the way through. Probably nobody does that, actually. Yeah. Probably not. You wrote really beautifully about Jane's relationship with Jimmy and how it is to take care of somebody who has special needs of any kind. Tell me a little bit more about that relationship and how you depicted his character so well. Well, Jimmy sort of came in by accident in that my favorite thing to write about of all things is dinner parties that don't go very well. My husband used to be a diplomat. I've been to a lot of dinner parties. I think I have a certain amount of PTSD around the whole subject. But so, the first dinner party in the book, I was looking for more people that Jane could invite. And I thought, she'll invite Duncan's coworker, but Duncan's such a poor businessman and such a lackadaisical proprietor, I couldn't imagine he'd have an assistant who was super switched on. So, I thought, well, this is the person that he would hire. But then the more I wrote about him, Jimmy sort of became the heart of the book. And it was very important to me that he be, even though he has special needs, that he'd be a complicated person and an honorable man and worthy of love, not just worthy of pity, and that he would add things to James life. I didn't want him to be defined by his intellectual disability. I wanted that to just be a part of him. Yeah. Well, you did a really good job of that. And I feel like we really got to know him when the whole not scandal, but deception. I won't give anything away. When that whole piece of occurred, it was like heart it was heartbreaking. I was like, no. Tell me this is not happening. It's so, you know, it's so easy to take advantage of of lots of different people, but it's it doesn't make it any better when it happens. The aftermath is super painful. I agree. And I think it's part of the small town thing that they all watch out for Jimmy. But even with everybody, nobody was really stepping forth to be a caretaker. And that's how that happened. Yes. That's true. Tell me about, like so Jane has a lot of different views on being single versus being with the wrong person, how she saw her life, how her life turned out. Like, what should we take away from from Jane aside from, like, falling in love with her as a character? I think that well, I think that Duncan actually turns out to be a good husband and a great father despite everybody telling her otherwise. And I think that Duncan is very redeemed for me by his love for Jimmy. And I think that he gets to the point of, we love Jimmy, he's a part of our family years and years before Jane does. Mhmm. Because I think Jane is all caught up in guilt and responsibility. And I guess what you should take from her is it may not be perfect, but it may end up being perfect for you. I like him. I thought it was so sick. Wait. Catherine, tell me how you became a writer. Like, when did you fall in love with writing? When did you start? When did you know you were a writer? Did you like to do it from a young age? Tell me about your first book and how we, you know, second you know, how we got here. Well, I always liked writing and I loved writing and I always wrote like stories and poems. And I remember when my best friend went off to college, I wrote her every letter was like either in the form of a newspaper interview or, you know, some. I'm sure she was just like, get over yourself and write me a normal letter. But and then I couldn't, I never thought I could like, be an actual writer who supported myself. And when I was an English major, and my dad said that he would apply, he would pay for me to go to law school or to one of the top creative writing schools, which were Iowa and Columbia at the time. So, applied to like 10 law schools, didn't get in because I'm sure they were all like, this girl has taken every creative writing class, and no political science classes. Why would we? And I didn't get into Iowa, but I got stuck in their rejection system. And they sent me a rejection letter every three days until I had to call them and was like, relax, I'm not coming. And then I got into Columbia. So off I went. And I sold my first story to the New Yorker while I was still at Columbia. And I remember thinking like, this is really easy. I don't know why people say writing is so hard. And I found that out later, but it was really this amazingly lucky, wonderful thing to happen to me that I'm not sure I would be a writer now if I hadn't gotten that big break. It was such a huge break and so cool. But then my children were born, and my children are going to listen to these interviews and be like, you know, thanks a lot. We didn't ask to be bored. But when my children were young, I had no energy to write. I mean, I had time, but just no creative energy. And it wasn't till my youngest child started first grade that I had the energy to write and solid blocks of time to write. So, my first book came out when I was 47. So, any writers anywhere should learn from that. It's never too late. And I also always want to say to parents who are writers that if you put it away, it'll be there when you go back for it. I was afraid that I had forgotten how to write, but I think in fact, I had just gotten much stronger and then you have more to write about. I know I had the same thing. I used to write and then I had kids and I basically stayed home for eleven years and didn't pursue any big projects, you know, like things every so often. And just like you, my youngest of four is now in first grade. And I'm like, oh, I feel like I've crossed over since sort of milestone. Like, there's he can get himself dressed. Like, you know, like, everybody can do their things now. So there's finally the space. But I do feel that when people are in that, like, at least certainly for me and it sounds like for you, like, it it felt like like it would never come back. Like, I was just I had gotten off track and the track couldn't you could not get back on that track. And I was watching other people keep going on the track while I was not on the track at all and thinking like, well, oh, well, I guess, like, my life didn't go that way. And I guess that success will not be mine, and that's okay. You know? More power to them. But it's not the case with writing. I feel like writer writers so many people on this podcast are in their forties, fifties, sixties. You know, the I feel like your mind maybe has to get to a certain place or it all just kind of shifts. I don't know. If I if I had to predict them, like, if you were a a child who liked to write and a teacher told you you were a good writer in, like, about third grade, if you were a lawyer or ever thought about being a lawyer, and if you love to read in your forties and fifties, watch out. You're gonna publish a book. Well, I remember when my sons were, like, two and four, people would say to me, what are you writing? And I'd be like, nothing, but I brushed my teeth today. Like that's progress. And I definitely had the feeling that like writing was happening for other people. And I was not as kind as you thinking, great, good for them. I was always very depressed. I remember when we watched Breaking Bad for the first time, and Gail, the chemist has all those notebooks where he just writes prolifically. I remember seeing that and feeling sad because I wasn't a writer, I didn't keep notebooks even. It was like everything conspired to sort of make me feel bad about it. It was a huge thing. So everybody, if you want to write, you should go back to it is my advice. It'll be there. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated, but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100 European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zibby for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[15:58]Katherine Heiny: When you went back to it, did you start with a big project? Like, how did you did you say like, okay, now I'm gonna work on stories. Now I'm gonna work on a novel. Like, this is like, how did you structure it? Or did you just sort of dabble for a little bit first? Well, for a long time, I felt like I couldn't write a novel. I felt like I didn't have the reach or the maturity or the interest or whatever. So, when I was in my early forties, and my son went back to school, I thought, okay, I'm just going to be a short story writer. And once I decided that stories came faster almost, then I could write them down. And the first story I wrote after a long break was a story about a child's tenth birthday party, and how it goes wrong in every single way. And I always found children's parties to be the most stressful events. Worse than dinner parties even. And I often wonder if my sons are going to look back on their birthdays and their predominant memory will be my really unhappy face. I'm worrying about the entertainer or the cake or whatever. So, we wrote a story about that. And then the stories just came very quickly. And a lot of them didn't have plots because I'm a sort of not a lot of my work has plots. The later work does, the earlier work doesn't. And I forget even when was your question? Oh, what did I go back? So, I started doing stories. And then a couple of the stories I started revisiting, because I had more to say about those characters. So that's what became my first collection and my first novel. Interesting. Do you ever think about bringing back some of your earlier characters? Like, do they still take up space in your head in some way? Like, you think about them and wonder what they're up to? I do. The main well, secondary character in my first novel, Audra, was very unfiltered person. And I still think of things that she would say sometimes. And I'm like, oh, I wish I was writing that book. But in general, I think sequels are really hard. I'm not sure I would ever write a sequel. But after I finished Early Morning Riser, I had very major book hangover or whatever you call it. And everything I started to write wound up being about a teacher in Northern Michigan with two girls. Then I got this amazing fan letter from a woman in Boyne City where the novel takes place saying that she moved there to be an elementary school teacher. And she married her local boyfriend after a very rocky courtship, and they had two daughters. And now she's like 72. And she said, I've always loved my life, but your book made me realize anybody would be proud to have my life. And that was the most beautiful. I was like, Oh, I have closure. That's why writers write books is to get that kind of letter. So, it really helped me put the book to bed and not keep wanting to be there because it was a really fun book to write. And it was kind of it was hard to say goodbye. Oh, I love that. That's so nice. Wouldn't it be crazy if actually all characters there were those people and maybe they just didn't know that they had home books written about them. No. Crazy. So then what have you were you able to move on and start something new? Like, what are you working on now? I just finished a short story collection. And one of the stories in it is sort of loosely based on the time when I was in my 20s and I lived in New York City and I worked as an office temp. And one day through hangover error and laundry crisis, I wore a bridesmaid's dress to my office job. And then I spent the rest of the day calling people to tell them how hilarious it was. And my friend Mary took the subway like 40 stops to come see me. And I'm not a great fan of the aging process, but the older you get, the better stories you have to tell. So, the fact that like, I have that story and I can make a character do that is really funny to me. There were short stories. I mean, in a way it's harder than a novel because it's like you're starting over fresh with the characters. But also, think you can take more chances and maybe be a little more experimental in a short story because it's like, oh, it's just 20 pages. So I just finished that. It'll be out next year. It was called Games and Rituals. Love it. Wow. Congratulations. I once went to a wedding. I was with my husband or soon to be husband at the time. So it was his friends. I didn't even really know them, the the people who were getting married. And I showed up wearing the same exact dress as all the bridesmaids, but I wasn't a bridesmaid. Yeah. Hey. Yeah. It was like a red Ann Taylor dress. I don't know. Anyway, all night people were coming over and congratulating me and like asking me where the bathroom was and like all these things. And I'm like, I don't even know these people. I just met them. So it was crazy. Yeah. Did the bride get angry? No. She thought it was hilarious. She's like, well, I love that dress. It's like my favorite dress. That's why I picked it. I was like, okay. Well, the day that I wore the bridesmaids dress and my friend Mary took the subway and we went out to lunch and it was at a deli and like, I wasn't paying attention. And when they called my name, I didn't go up. The guy was like, behind the counter was like, Hello, woman in the prom dress. And I felt like that made me really happy too. It was not a sleeveless dress, which is what everybody asks me. And that would have been even greater. But it was like a Laura Ashley, it's like a two piece dress, which is maybe why I thought it would be okay for office wear. I mean, can you imagine the people in the office, they must have been like, don't get that temp again. She's insane. But it was like, it was black. It had puff sleeves and a sort of floral. It was shiny. There was no really real way I passed it off as like office wear. But this is what sleep deprivation does to you. You make these decisions early in the morning and you have to live with them throughout the day. The presumed world of being trapped in a certain spot all day long, and that's the end of it. Love it. And how great that you just went to a deli. Yeah. Why not use it for a scene? Of course. What advice would you have for aspiring authors? I guess, keep going. Whole thing about your brain being a muscle and your imagination getting stronger the more you work it, it's really trite, but it's really true. And when I taught creative writing, my students never sent anything out. They never submitted their work. I was like, elves are not going to come in the night and publish this stuff. How to get it out there. Like, I sent stories out almost as soon as I started writing them. I mean, I would wait and I would polish them and I would submit them. But so I would say get your work out there and don't take rejections personally and and just keep going. I once went took a writing class. I do I like writing personal essays, not short stories, but I took this class with Sue Shapiro about writing for magazines and newspapers back when there were magazines and newspapers. And she said, you know, always have a a whole list, like a whole spreadsheet or a whole list, and don't take it personally. Like, just it's like a you have your list of 20 places you're gonna send it. And as soon as the one comes back and says no, you cross it off and just go right to the next one. Like, you don't stop. You don't think. It just means it's not right for that. Like, moving on. And that whole approach has helped me through so much stuff. Right? Just like you have Oh, your yeah. Moving on. Well, when I sent the story to the New Yorker while I was still in graduate school, it had been 30 other places. And then my friend Jennifer was like, you're supposed to start with the New Yorker. And I was like, oh, I didn't know that. So, I sent it in on a Thursday. And Roger Angel called me on Friday. I didn't even know the mail worked that fast, let alone. And he said, so this man called with a deep voice and was like, Is Catherine Heiney there? And I thought it was the landlord wondering where the rent was. So, it's like, she's gone. She's out of town for the whole weekend. Can I take a message? And he was like, This is Roger Angel from The New Yorker. And I was like, Oh, wait, it's me. It's me. And I think I cemented my images sort of in mini for all time by pretending not to be myself. So, he called to take the story. But I almost didn't send it in. It's all very everybody's every writer's path to where they are is is very different. But all of them, I think, show persistence. Yes. I love that image of elves in the night publishing stories. That's so great. What if that's the way life worked? That would be great. There's a All so much work. Yep. Maybe you could write a short story about that. I know. I just thought, oh, wow. Maybe I could. Yeah. Go for it. Yeah. Alright. Well, send it to me when it's done. I'd love to read it. Alright, Katherine. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming on mom's no time to read books. Thanks for the true pleasure of reading your book, which I absolutely adored. And the way you write your sentences, your scenes, your sense of humor, the like quirkiness to it, it's just great. It's just a total joy. It was a total joy. So thank Thank you. Thank you. It was my pleasure. And we're friends on Facebook, so it's sort of been stalking you from afar for a couple And of years you're just as charming in person, well, live as you are on Facebook. Oh, thank you. That's really nice. Well, if you're ever in New York and you want, I could try to charm you in an actual person, you know? Well, I would love that. We can wear bridesmaids dresses and meet for coffee somewhere. Oh my gosh. That would be so funny. I would love it. Little bridesmaids party. Let's do it. Let's do it. I'm in. I'm totally in. Deli sandwiches all the way. Okay. Alright. I'll get you in.

[26:03]Zibby Owens: Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing,

[26:23]Katherine Heiny: and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.