Emily Henry, BOOK LOVERS
[0:01]Hi, this is Vivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast.
[0:05]Moms don't have time to read books, and speaking of books, I have two of my own books
[0:10]coming out this spring and summer.
[0:12]Princess Charming is a picture book, which debuts on April 19th, and bookends.
[0:17]A memoir of love, loss, and literature comes out on July 1st, and it is truly a labor of love.
[0:24]I hope you'll pre-order, order, and join me on tour as I go across the country.
[0:28]You can find out more at ziviowens.com, or bookendsmemoir.com, and you can follow me on Instagram
[0:35]at ziviowens, because I always post about everything.
[0:38]Enjoy the show!
[0:41]Emily Henry is the author of book lovers.
[0:44]She is the number one New York Times bestselling author of People We Meet on Vacation,
[0:49]and Be Treat.
[0:50]She studied creative writing at Hope College, and now spends most of her time in Cincinnati,
[0:54]Ohio, and the part of Kentucky just beneath it.
[0:57]Hello!
[0:58]Hey, how are you?
[0:59]Good.
[1:00]How are you?
[1:01]I'm good.
[1:02]Thank you.
[1:03]Your office looks so beautiful and cozy.
[1:04]I just want to climb into it.
[1:06]You know, it is.
[1:08]I'm always here looking at your right computer, and I'm such a waste.
[1:12]I need to.
[1:13]I say this often.
[1:14]I need to set it up, but then I wouldn't have as good a background.
[1:16]Right.
[1:17]You would just have a wall, and you're just sitting facing the beautiful set.
[1:20]No, there are bookshelves this way, too, but they're not.
[1:22]They're not color-coordinated.
[1:23]They're messy, and we don't need to show you.
[1:27]It's everywhere, and it's like a zoo, so be private, shall we?
[1:30]Yes, no, I'm good, shall we?
[1:33]Oh my gosh.
[1:34]Well, congratulations on the lunch book lovers.
[1:37]So exciting.
[1:38]Thank you.
[1:39]Oh my gosh.
[1:40]I've been really looking forward to this book, and discussing this book, and reading it,
[1:43]and it was so fun and great, and I'm just convinced that you should text for everyone
[1:48]who ever wants to flirt, ever.
[1:50]People should hire you.
[1:51]You should just be one of those, you know, that movie rocks and, like, you know,
[1:55]just do this for sure.
[1:56]Yeah.
[1:57]I've got everyone you're like always talking.
[1:58]You have, like, this gift of flirty text, texting, or whatever, anyway, dialogue, too,
[2:04]but particularly, thank you.
[2:06]I think I would have to be both people in that texting situation, though, because a lot
[2:10]of times it's like, you set up the joke, and then the person on the other side is like,
[2:13]okay.
[2:14]Like, that's all I have to say.
[2:16]Yes.
[2:17]Yeah.
[2:18]Well, that's like, I mean, that person's not even worth your effort.
[2:21]Right.
[2:22]That's like, leave that number.
[2:23]Yeah.
[2:24]Someone you can spar with, but I think there is something so attractive about someone
[2:28]who's on your same wavelength in that way, right?
[2:31]Yeah.
[2:32]I mean, even when you make a new friend and you're like, wow, this is, this is really
[2:36]going well.
[2:37]That's like such an exciting feeling when you feel funnier and brighter and more sparkly,
[2:42]because the person you're talking to just, like, gives as good as they get, you know?
[2:46]Yes.
[2:47]Totally.
[2:48]Well, let's back up.
[2:50]Can you tell us that there's what book lovers is about?
[2:53]Yeah.
[2:54]Book lovers is about Norris Stevens, who is an uptight, ambitious semi-cut throat literary
[3:00]agent who lives in New York.
[3:02]And she loves her life, loves her job, but she has this problem, which is that she keeps
[3:07]getting dumped by men who should be perfect for her, for women who work her total opposite.
[3:12]So she, every time she gets a boyfriend, like he gets sent out of town by his job,
[3:17]and while he's there, he falls in love with like a small town baker or flower, you know,
[3:22]forest, whatever, and her relationships end.
[3:25]And so she has kind of accepted that she is the villainous in every small town romance
[3:31]story.
[3:32]Like, she's just there to be the foil to the, like, good girl.
[3:35]And because of that, her younger sister Libby convinces her that they should get out of town
[3:40]for a month and have a sister's trip.
[3:42]And they can kind of give Nora her own transformational, small town experience, maybe
[3:47]she'll fall in love with the carpenter or a local doctor, you know, a country that whatever.
[3:53]But while she's there, she keeps running into her nemesis from back in the city, Charlie
[3:57]Lastera, who is this editor, who summarily rejected Nora's clients big book and did
[4:03]so in like a very rude way and that, you know, they've been on the wrong foot ever since.
[4:07]And so he keeps intruding on what should be this really idyllic, small town experience
[4:12]and bringing, like, his brand of New Yorker back into her periphery and upsetting everything.
[4:19]Amazing.
[4:20]And I love how you have it, like, it's so self, it's so, like, publishing meta.
[4:25]Right.
[4:26]Is it?
[4:27]Yeah.
[4:28]It would be funny if there was a story like this and then all of a sudden you're writing
[4:31]that story.
[4:32]Yeah.
[4:33]Yeah.
[4:34]I think it's so funny because the more time you spend in a certain world, the more you
[4:37]know, it's weird little quirks and I feel like, I mean, you're in books and every single
[4:41]corner of books.
[4:42]But like, I bet you would have, I mean, maybe this is something you're working on.
[4:46]Like, I feel like you would have so much to say about the podcasting world that like,
[4:50]you know, everybody listens to podcasts, but most of us don't know anything about how
[4:53]the sausage gets made and like, you know, all of the weird quirks, you know, like, what
[4:59]to expect from guests.
[5:00]Like, you've probably had some very awkward interviews, like, you've done it all.
[5:04]And I don't know.
[5:05]It's like, I don't keep setting out to write these very meta books, but I'm just really
[5:08]fascinated by so much of the book worlds.
[5:11]Huh.
[5:12]I never thought about writing about the post publishing world, but I am actually working
[5:15]on a novel about the book worlds.
[5:17]Yeah.
[5:18]I'm not saying, but about like, not, not a real, not real man, yeah, nothing like that.
[5:23]But, um, but it is endlessly fascinating, right?
[5:26]Cause it is.
[5:27]It has so many, it in so many ways it doesn't make any sense, right?
[5:31]Right.
[5:32]It's right.
[5:33]It's like the total conundrum, like, there's so many books, there's so many people
[5:37]who want to write books.
[5:38]There's like, there are so many readers, but then how do the readers find the write books?
[5:43]Like, it's like, it's like magic.
[5:45]It's like completely agree.
[5:46]How do people find, how do they find the write things and I don't know.
[5:50]And I think that's why it feels so miraculous when you do read a book and you're like,
[5:55]this is the perfect book for me in this moment in time.
[5:59]And I don't, I don't even know if we stopped to appreciate how weird that is because
[6:03]so often I'll pick up books that just for that moment.
[6:05]And like this, I'm not feeling this, I'm going to set it aside.
[6:08]And then maybe like three years later, I'm like, oh yeah, that book.
[6:10]Try it again.
[6:11]And it's, you know, a roller coaster for me where I cannot get off and would not want
[6:15]to.
[6:16]And yeah, I don't know if we stop often enough to be like, this is weird that I'm really
[6:19]in this thing that feels like faded for me in this moment.
[6:22]Totally.
[6:23]When you feel like somebody like on the page is like reading your mind and it's, yeah,
[6:28]I wrote about it.
[6:29]I have to spend more, I wanted to do an event with you by this, but I have to spend more
[6:31]bookends coming out.
[6:32]And it's a lot about my love effects and whatever.
[6:34]I felt like the opposite also happens, like there are books that yeah, so hit me when
[6:39]I was like right after college or I was like trying to figure my whole life out and all
[6:43]of the stuff and like what they were going through and I was like, yes, this.
[6:47]And then I go back and read it and I'm like, well, what on earth was it?
[6:51]Like what was I going through like, but in turn, but usually then the author has written
[6:56]something more recently than I'm still responding to.
[6:58]But like for any of us to go back, no, I'm so with you, there are so many like middle
[7:03]grade or like chapter books that I loved as a kid that like as an adult, I've been like,
[7:07]okay, I remember being eight years old and having a very strong emotional reaction to
[7:12]this book and rereading it and realizing like, yeah, this is a book for kids.
[7:15]It's really bare bones.
[7:16]There's very little character development, not to say that's every book for kids, but
[7:19]the ones I'm thinking of where you're just like, I like sobbed.
[7:23]I sobbed about this and it's like 80 pages long, nothing, you know, nothing really happens.
[7:29]I don't know.
[7:30]You're so right.
[7:31]It's like the right book for the right time is like, I don't know.
[7:36]It is like a time capsule.
[7:37]It's true.
[7:38]Well, it's like clothing.
[7:39]Right.
[7:40]Yeah.
[7:41]Kind of outgrow a certain thing.
[7:42]Right.
[7:43]And you need to, you need to let it go and buy yourself new clothes.
[7:45]Yeah.
[7:46]You got to put those in the container under the bed and we're really going to hide that
[7:49]shame box.
[7:50]Is she actually a box?
[7:51]I'm really growing shame boxes, I should say, it's like all different.
[7:57]So I'm curious because you are so open on social media and all this.
[8:02]Like you're very funny.
[8:03]I mean, you're a beautiful, beautiful young woman and yet you're like posting all these
[8:08]ridiculous faces that you make and all this stuff.
[8:10]And it's obviously a conscious choice, like to show behind the scenes and the reality
[8:14]and everything.
[8:15]So how did you, did that just happen or did you decide to do that?
[8:20]Like, do you have a specific approach?
[8:22]Because I feel like the marketing of the brand of the author is also part of the puzzle
[8:26]of the whole thing.
[8:27]Right.
[8:28]And I don't think, you know, I don't remember when I started, but I definitely feel like
[8:32]Instagram has shifted in the last few years because the filters have changed from like
[8:36]you have dog ears to like, we gave you like a 16 inch waste for some reason.
[8:42]And I think watching that, like I had the realization, like I didn't know that that was
[8:46]happening.
[8:47]Like I am sort of, I use technology, but I'm never good at it.
[8:50]And I'm always like behind everything.
[8:53]So I didn't realize how much of what I was seeing was edited images.
[8:57]And I reached a point where I was like, wow, I feel worse about myself physically than
[9:01]I ever have in my life.
[9:03]What's going on?
[9:04]And then I realized like, I'm seeing like, of course I do, like I'm my main entry point
[9:10]into the world of strangers right now is like beautiful pictures of them on the internet.
[9:15]Oftentimes edited not always, but it's like, you know, of course you want to post the
[9:18]most flattering picture.
[9:19]I do too.
[9:20]I post the most flattering pictures as well.
[9:23]But I think just realizing that and being like, wow, that's really bad for me to not understand
[9:28]that that's just like, you know, the right lighting, the right makeup, the right, whatever.
[9:32]It's really bad for me mentally.
[9:33]And so I wanted to just kind of be like, I need to start sharing more of what actually
[9:38]happens when I take selfies because I'll take them for like 20 minutes.
[9:44]And there's like five that are good.
[9:45]And the rest I'm like, I really, I am, I'm taking these pictures myself and they're
[9:50]still that ridiculous.
[9:52]Like I'm still blinking in most of them.
[9:53]And it's like, I'm the one controlling the clicker.
[9:56]Yeah.
[9:57]This is happening.
[9:59]So yeah.
[10:00]I think like you know like social media so weird you're always trying to figure out how to be authentic on it, but you like almost can't because you're always funneling yourself into this one picture and this caption and it's just impossible to contain.
[10:13]Everything in that post and so I think it's just like a very small way of being like yeah, this is great here I am looking nice and you know, this is what I looked like in all the other pictures it's just like a way to.
[10:26]remind people I think that like this is not the summation of my life and experience, this is one corner of my house that is clean everything else right now is absolute chaos like that's the truth.
[10:41]I'm curious how you manage because you have all the you have multiple books now be treats and people you know vacation and everything is like has been back on the list and staying on the list and new books and there's so much going on with you so.
[10:55]How much time are you spending writing and then like career like sort of writing management stuff and like how are you keeping up how are you keeping up with like the reader especially with the interaction with readers and fans how are you doing that.
[11:07]Well, I think this is a funny question to get from you, it's like famously the busiest woman in books like making time for everything because I think you know to me it feels like there's too much there's too much I can't keep up with all of it and then I look at all my friends who are like.
[11:22]You know raising kids and have other jobs and like are doing all the same stuff as me and I'm just like I was made I was like made in a laboratory to do one thing at a time and be very lazy.
[11:34]So, I think you know right now what I'm kind of doing is my team has been really great about giving me the end of the year where I'm like no publicity stuff at all from like September through end of December early January so that I can write a book because otherwise it's like not happening.
[11:50]And I think I'm just like I don't know my big thing is I'm trying to work on saying no and that's really hard because it's often just like a ton of stuff you want to do it's not like saying no to like your you know sisters cut like barbers cousins like like birthday party it's like saying no to like a great interviewer great event with an author I love and that has been like the biggest I think point of growth for me in the last year is just simply having to say no and not being able to.
[12:20]Say yes, which is what I would do so yeah I feel like there's like a chunk of the year that is you know supporting my release and talking to readers and all that a chunk of the year that's just writing and then the whole year just like practicing saying no.
[12:36]Do you feel like like is reading fan mail from readers like a guilty pleasure like do you love doing that or do you like save it for certain times like you must get so much mail that's really like.
[12:50]Just about the mail part, you know, tell you about the mail yeah well it's really wild because you know be treated I feel like wow I'm on top of the world this is going so great, but people even on vacation was the one that really caught on book talk and so that was when.
[13:06]You know the reader messages started to really pour in and that is amazing there is no way that I could respond to all of them and so it is the kind of thing where it's like I do just kind of.
[13:17]out of curiosity like go into my dms every once in a while and just read the lovely messages and it's I don't know it's it's amazing and it's the kind of thing where I almost feel like I was talking to someone recently.
[13:30]And they were saying like it's kind of like looking into the grand canyon where it's like on a logical level you're like this is amazing, but your brain is sort of like don't even bother trying to understand this because it is so huge.
[13:43]And you cannot understand standing this close like how amazing this is and I think when I'm reading those messages there's this feeling of surreal like this very surreal quality where I'm just like I can't believe this is real and my brain is sort of like refusing to compute it is just like look good look at something else you can't handle like.
[14:02]What this is it's like too amazing, you know, yes, totally get it oh my gosh I love it well wait let's go back to the book for sure, and first of all you have a great like sister dynamic right and you have the pregnant sister and somebody who's like really she's just so ready to like out of her own life, even if she has to like hike her way up the hill and and like what a trip.
[14:28]Even means like what is in escape and like and all of that and then and also the respect of people you work with or work for and how that plays into everything too so I don't know talk about either of those things talk about like the sister relationship or talk about you know this sort of love hate work relationship situation yeah well the sister relationship I so I have older brothers I have sisters in law who I've now you know known for years and love like sisters and think of a sister.
[14:58]But I grew up with older brothers and I had kind of written about that relationship in one of my way novels, but a lot of my closest friends are older sisters who kind of have this caretaker relationship with their younger sisters and like you know one of my best friends I have gone on multiple girl trips like with her and her sister and it's so funny because they will really be like at each other's throats.
[15:21]being so mean to each other and then five minutes later they're like laughing so hard they can't stand up and they're crying and I'm really fascinated by that relationship like the intensity.
[15:30]Of a close sister relationship and especially one where it's like that you know they've been they've been through all the same trauma they've had the same childhood even if it struck them kind of differently.
[15:40]And you know one of them has has kind of taken on this like parent parental role, but they're also like best friends and I'm just I was so fascinated by that and really wanted to write that and also you know my other best friend like we've been best friends since we were 10 years old and so we've gone through all these big major life transitions like we left and went to different.
[16:00]colleges in different states and then we moved back to Cincinnati and then she left again and moved to Denver and so I feel like I've been through all of those growing pains of like.
[16:10]Like we love each other so so much but our lives are taking us in different directions and if you know to really love each other well we have to be willing to kind of let that space grow to let you go and pursue your dream and live somewhere else and.
[16:26]And that's like a really painful but beautiful thing when you have that relationship that spanned decades and you have to just create room so that you can both keep growing and that love doesn't have to go away and.
[16:39]So even though you know like I don't have biological sisters or you know sisters in my immediate family.
[16:45]I really felt a lot of that relationship with my friends kind of like creeping into it and the feelings of I like I don't want you to leave I don't want you to to go anywhere where I can't get to you.
[16:59]I also want you to be happy so badly and so much I think of Norinne Libby's relationship is both of them feeling that way about each other.
[17:07]I felt I just so related to Libby I have to say, are you my sister no no I mean the pregnancy part though yeah yeah I heard no sorry not that part yeah yeah yeah.
[17:17]Like the dragled like you know she didn't want to express how you know it's just it's really hard.
[17:25]You know I think you know one of my good friends was pregnant while I was writing the book and and I it was really nice because she's so open and so she was like just really sharing how she was feeling in that weird feeling of her identity splitting it was her first and like feeling like.
[17:41]you know I think of myself as this artist and now I'm going to be a mom and like always feeling like you know she's failing at one when she's succeeding at the other and.
[17:51]I think that's so refreshing because you know I feel that way after I was 15 years to this so you know I think I mean and I don't know that I don't think that men feel that same pressure where for some reason it's like you know parenting is important to men as well but I feel like that feeling of.
[18:08]I am only a mom in these moments or I'm only an artist in these moments and I'm always dropping the ball on something I don't know it's just it's so fascinating and it's.
[18:19]hard and I feel like I want to see more of that in fiction and the risk you know kind of like this space given to moms to like complain.
[18:28]And like to like instead of being like this is a beautiful experience and I love I love being pregnant so much and I loved my natural birth in a swimming pool at home like it's okay to be like I am so tired and like sick of my family and I need a minute alone you know.
[18:45]I've read this book by Julia May Jonas called Vladimir oh I am so sorry no but the cover I think is yeah the very very I'm like I'm so embarrassed I literally like walk into my house and I like put it face down on like.
[18:58]What I walked in because I was like I feel like I don't want to.
[19:01]It's like you know bear chest of a man what do people think I'm reading this is like can't show my babysitter anyway in the beginning of that book the main character is a novelist and she wants to write this novel.
[19:14]From three women's perspectives an artist a mother and a career woman and then like throughout her fictitious book in this novel you realize it's the same woman.
[19:25]Yeah and I loved that and I was like why did you not write that book go write that book.
[19:30]Yeah okay maybe I'll write that but I hope she does but it's not true I mean there are all these different identities that all of us have whether you have your own kids or not this whole like sides of yourself that you have to interweave like which one am I today.
[19:42]Yeah how much of this is you know it's like this pie chart right each day you only get to see a little bit of places right like it's like a yeah it's like the chore chart.
[19:54]And then planner and I'll be a photographer tomorrow.
[20:00]You know, then a wandress. Yeah, then a wandress. Yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh. And talk about the work relationship and how, you know, even between two very professional people and who are super accomplished. There can be some sort of underlying sexual attention. Like, what do you do about that and doesn't come from all the negativity. Yeah.
[20:23]Yeah, it's so interesting because I don't know. Have you watched that show severance. It just came out on Apple TV like a few with Adam Scott. Yes. It's really good. But I just saw the picture of it and I was like, I should watch that. Yeah, it's fantastic. I mean, it's dark. It's upsetting, but it's fantastic. And, you know, so much of it. It's like this weird like workplace like satire in a way. And it's so interesting because it really, it's obviously totally different from what I'm doing, but it was making me think so much.
[20:51]about kind of the dynamics that form in a workplace. And you know, like there's like kind of the shorthand now of like my work way for my work husband words like you find that person. You're like, okay, I'm sticking with you because like we all, you know, like I know who to look to in the meeting when somebody says something ridiculous. Like we're going to be making eye contact and whatever.
[21:10]And I think, you know, it's like when you spend that much time at your job or like have that really tricky work life balance, those relationships are so important. And like can very naturally become more. And I was really, you know, excited for this book to have two characters who are so similar. Like you said, they're both like like die hard professionals.
[21:31]But I wanted to use that similarity to create this feeling of tension first with like them having sort of a contentious like argumentative relationship.
[21:39]And then with like sexual and romantic tension, but just the idea of like when you're when you see yourself mirrored.
[21:46]Like that weird push pull where you're like, do I hate you or do I love you and is it because I because you are me like is this narcissism what's happening.
[21:56]It was really fun because I had written mostly couples who were really different before that. And I was like, okay, I want to write two piece in a pod and and see if I can still make it like feel fairly intense and combustible.
[22:08]Did you see dirty rotten scoundrels is from a really long time ago.
[22:11]No, I've heard of it. I've not seen it.
[22:13]It's not like totally related to what is making me say this, but it's like the scammer is trying to take advantage of the woman who turns out to also be scamming him.
[22:23]So it's it's sort of the same thing. It's like you don't know who really has the power like you're both doing what you're doing. And yet you can't always see it. I don't know.
[22:32]No, and there's that feeling of competitiveness.
[22:35]Yeah, totally. Yeah.
[22:37]But that's awesome. I love the dynamic between the word Charlie Charlie. Thank you. Yeah. It's really it was really awesome. And I just like left wanting wanting more.
[22:49]Thank you. That's the best. What's your next novel? Do you have it already? I have a draft of it. I don't think I can't speak like freely and openly about it. But yeah, I think it'll be coming out next summer. It is another romance.
[23:03]The cast is like slightly larger, which is like something I'm trying to balance now and edits of making everyone feel real.
[23:09]So much of it. It really is, you know, it's kind of like about it's about a friend group. I'll say that it's about a friend group and a relationship within that friend group. And it's really I feel like it feels really different. But obviously like, I really only know how to like do a couple of things. So I think readers who like this one will still really like that one, hopefully.
[23:29]And also set in the literary world or can you don't say it is not set in the literary world. I'm trying to think if there's even a single character from it is not it's it is pretty. So in that way it's different.
[23:40]I do feel like I could just keep writing books set in the literary world forever. I really do. And I'm like, now at this point, I'm like trying to find a way to distinguish.
[23:51]But honestly, I'll probably come back and do another one. Maybe it'll be a book podcast or if you don't do that first. We'll see.
[23:58]Can do it together. Yeah. I don't know if there's enough of that podcasting. I mean, I'm literally just sitting here in my room like what you have.
[24:06]I mean, you have to have like, you know, there's like the quirks and the people. Like I'm sure a lot of people show up without headphones or like, I mean, that sounds so boring, but I feel like there's a way to do it funny.
[24:16]Probably right. Yeah. You're probably right. You're just too close to it now. You don't like, you know, if you started writing down everything that's happened to you since starting the podcast, there would be a lot there.
[24:27]I mean, I guess that's a lot of that's going into the memoir probably though. No, no, not too much.
[24:31]Not too much. So excited for that. Oh my gosh. I have to send it to you. I have to. Yeah. Please do. Okay. Yeah. It's true. I almost wrote an article about like what not to do when you're a guest on a podcast.
[24:43]I think I should write that. I think you should. You have to be helpful for a lot of us. Yeah. You're not doing any of those things. Oh, good.
[24:50]But I had, I did have one interview where I was just like, this is a perfect example. Like, I hope they were like chewing gum.
[24:57]I won't even, I won't even say it, but hardly ever happens, but it's just like, you know, okay.
[25:02]Now I can't, I honestly can't even remember who that was because I could go back and listen to it again.
[25:07]But anyway, interesting. Do you have any parting advice for aspiring authors?
[25:13]Well, I mean, I really feel like you just have to like not give up because it feels like everybody else has had this overnight success and that's almost never true.
[25:23]That's like the one in a million. Most of us really are doing like the frantic Googling building of like Excel spreadsheets being, you know, just trying to get all the information and to query agents and all of that.
[25:34]I feel like it feels so trite to say, but it really is true that it's like it just takes so many notes before you get a yes and all you really need is that one yes.
[25:45]So I don't know. I know it can be so discouraging. And so I think the big thing is I just want people to know they are very much not alone and not even just like the other people who are aspiring to publish, but like all of the published writers they're, you know, listening to podcasts of and reading like all of those people are also very familiar with rejection.
[26:03]That's just a part of it. Very true. Awesome. Well, I'm so excited for the book. Congratulations again. And yeah, let's keep talking.
[26:14]Thanks for having me. All right, bye Emily.
[26:17]Hi, I'm city Owens and you're listening to the award winning podcast. Moms don't have time to read books.
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