Amy Butcher, MOTHERTRUCKER: Finding Joy on the Loneliest Road in America
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[0:41]Amy Butcher is the author of Mother Chucker, finding joy on the loneliest road in America.
[0:47]By the way, this is published by Little A, which is where my memoir, bookends, is coming out.
[0:52]So we are like publishing soul sisters or something like that.
[0:56]She is Amy is an award-winning essayist, and also author of the 2015 memoir, Visiting Hours.
[1:03]She has additional work that's been published in the New York Times, Grand Art Harper's,
[1:07]the Iowa Review, Lithub, Guernica, Brevity, and others.
[1:11]Mother Chucker is in development to be a major motion picture by Make Ready Films directed by the Primetime,
[1:17]Emmy-winning creator of Transparent, and I love Dick Joey Soloway, and starring Academy Award
[1:23]and Golden Globe winner, Julie Admore.
[1:26]excerpts from Mother Chucker earned a 2020 Individual Excellence Award from the Ohio Arts Council.
[1:32]And Amy's additional work has benefited from awards and grants from the Vermont Studio Center,
[1:38]the Kimmel Harding Nelson Center for the Arts, the Stanley Awards for International Research,
[1:43]and the Olive B. O'Connor Fellowship in Creative Writing from Colgate University.
[1:47]Her essay, on images of violence, earned a notable distinction in the Best American Essays 2021 series,
[1:54]guest edited by Katherine Schultz.
[1:56]She earned her MFA from the University of Iowa, and presently serves as the Director of Creative Writing,
[2:01]and an Associate Professor of English at Ohio Wesleyan University.
[2:04]Amy teaches annually at the Iowa Summer Writing Festival, and the Sitka Fine Arts Camp in Sitka, Alaska.
[2:11]She currently lives in Ohio with her three rescue dogs.
[2:14]Welcome, Amy. Thank you so much for coming on moms.
[2:17]Don't have time to read books to discuss Mother Tracker, finding joy on the loneliest road in America.
[2:23]Thank you so much for having me.
[2:25]It's my pleasure to be here.
[2:27]Uh-oh.
[2:28]You know, from the first minute when I read the title of this, I was like, oh, I'm going to love that book.
[2:33]You know, there was just something about it, and now that I've read it, you have so many meetings.
[2:39]There are so many meetings for your subtitle, and what that lonely road is.
[2:44]And I don't know.
[2:45]It's so poignant.
[2:46]Anyway, why don't you tell listeners a little bit about the book, how you found joy in more ways than one?
[2:54]Absolutely.
[2:55]So this book really began for me in 2018.
[2:58]I am a college professor in Central Ohio.
[3:02]I write a lot of essays kind of around women's issues and feminism, among other things.
[3:07]But in my own home, I was experiencing a partnership with a man.
[3:12]But at the time I wasn't using the language, I think that I should have been.
[3:16]I was using sort of codified language that it was a unhealthy relationship, a little toxic.
[3:22]And so I was dealing with this private situation.
[3:26]And one night I found on Instagram using the Explore feature, this account, Alaska Mother Tracker.
[3:33]And I had been traveling a little bit in Alaska, South Eastern Alaska, teaching at an arts camp in Sitka, the Sitka Fine Arts camp.
[3:41]And so I had a little bit of knowledge about Alaska, but really the idea of a woman who essentially what I found is that joy was the nation's only big rig driver on the James W. Dalton Highway, which I knew remarkably little about.
[3:56]But her photos were of this massive blue 18-wheeler, these snow-capped roads.
[4:03]And the more that I began to research what the James W. Dalton Highway was and what it was that this woman, Alaska Mother Tracker, who her real name was, was Joy Ruth Weebie.
[4:13]What she did was essentially drive structural materials and creature comforts and food, 413 miles up the James W. Dalton Highway, which is known as the Loneliest Road in America, the most isolated road in America, and also the deadliest road in America.
[4:32]And so it is essentially this road that is primarily gravel in many places one way that extends from Fairbanks, Alaska all the way up to industrial complex of dead horse, it's called, and the oil fields of Prudo Bay.
[4:47]It was the only woman to be doing this drive in an 18-wheeler in this male dominated industry in this, you know, male dominated landscape.
[4:56]And she was this petite, funny, oftentimes sort of vegan woman and just the antithesis of anything that I imagined up there.
[5:07]I was captivated by, I think, in the way that so many of us are when we see someone on social media, this life that she seemed to command fearlessly.
[5:16]And again, just working this job that is incredibly demanding on the body, but also, you know, commanding on the psyche, on her mind, the risks that she faced, you know, doing this drive two to three times weekly.
[5:30]And so I really became, you know, fanatical about following her, about learning more about her life, and ultimately reached out to her and, you know, as a writer, I'm always looking for an interesting story.
[5:42]And most of the time, you ask someone, hey, can I, you know, fly across the country to spend some time with you and write about you, and it's an easy, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a laugh.
[5:52]But instead, Joy kind of chuckled and she said, sure, you know, when do you want to come up and so within two weeks, I was landed, I landed in Fairbanks, Alaska at 4 a.m. And, you know, by noon, she was picking me up and we were setting off together.
[6:07]So, ultimately, the story really is about our friendship, but it's, as you kind of have highlighted, there's a lot more to it than that. It's also about what it means to be a woman in America and sort of the dangers that women, you know, place their bodies, these, these dynamic situations that they place their bodies in every day in pursuit of, of, of a life well lived in a life that is lived in a way that is safe and, and free.
[6:34]That was an amazing description. One heartbreaking slash ironic slash memorable moment in the book was when your parents naturally were worried when you decide to go off on this adventure to Alaska and
[6:49]no cell service and what if something happens and how would they be in touch and how would they know what if something happened and, and your response in your head was something bad had been happening to me all the time and they didn't know and this was like my escape and I just like keep thinking about that.
[7:08]What are loved ones fear what they don't know how like how do you balance when something terrible is happening to you how much do you tell what if it happened slowly like this whole thing tell me a little bit about about that.
[7:24]Yeah, thank you. That's such a smart observation. And yeah, you know, the more research that I did hoping that I could relieve some of these fears, you know, to tell one's family, hey, I'm embarking on this trip across the country to meet essentially what is a stranger from the internet and then to take off in her truck up the deadliest highway in America.
[7:44]As you said, there isn't a cell phone service. There is no Wi-Fi. There are no police. There are no real, you know, there are no rest stops. There are two separate little camps along the way where one can stop and get a meal and check the weather.
[7:57]But other than that, you're on your own. There's not even in most places shoulders or guardrails. And so, you know, this is a road that is incredibly treacherous not only for those conditions, but also everything that is exacerbated by the weather.
[8:10]You know, obviously avalanche and snow and blizzards and ice and even, you know, as we find out in the book, even in spring and summer, the fog and the water, the rain, the flooding is really risky as well.
[8:23]And so the more information I tried to find on the Dalton Highway, the more dangers sort of presented themselves. And so, you know, this was something that everyone was really concerned about.
[8:34]And I think in general, it speaks to those larger idea that that the outside world is ultimately a lot more dangerous for women. And that's certainly true. Right.
[8:44]We certainly understand that women face, but what was really difficult for me is that there was this abundance of concern about the risk that I was.
[8:55]facing by putting my body out in the world. And here I was in this relationship that I didn't know how to talk about it. I didn't know how to confide in others that this partner that I had been with at that point for several years.
[9:10]His behavior was escalating in such a way that he was physically, you know, backing me into corners, physically intimidating me screaming and yelling at me until I'm on the floor sort of cowering, protecting my head.
[9:25]One moment that I write about in the book where we kind of took our first road trip out west and we were camping in Mesa Verde. And it was our first night and I was belated to be on this trip with him and all of a sudden, he slipped into this rage and we kind of moved from the bonfire into our tent.
[9:44]And I just kept thinking, like, I am going to die out here. I am going to die in this tent with this man that I love. And I did not know how to talk about that. I come from...
[10:00]a background in which I have not personally witnessed violence in the home in this way,
[10:06]and I use physical intimidation and I use verbal abuse as a form of violence.
[10:12]I knew remarkably little about domestic violence, and so in my head as a educated,
[10:17]you know, 30-year-old woman who considered herself a feminist, I thought that domestic
[10:22]violence would abuse really only warranted that term if it was, I talk about sort of this like hierarchy,
[10:28]that, you know, because he was not outright hitting me, I didn't have the right to be afraid
[10:35]or to be concerned about my safety, that that felt frivolous or melodramatic. And so,
[10:41]you know, I was in this relationship with this man who I talk about this in the book, you know,
[10:46]he was a teacher of young people. He was a lover of the arts. He was really the brightest
[10:53]and the sweetest person in any given room, and yet within the confines of our own home,
[10:58]I felt absolutely terrified by this behavior that was escalating. And, you know, our culture
[11:04]does not talk about this, and it doesn't talk about the way that domestic violence so often builds
[11:09]in this way. I think in the last few months, there's, I think, a lot of renewed interest.
[11:15]I'm thinking specifically surrounding the murder of Gabby Petito. I'm thinking of specifically
[11:21]the incredible series made the adaptation of Stephanie Lam's book, which does, I mean,
[11:28]such amazing and intricate work in exploring, I think the nuance of the social systems that ultimately
[11:34]failed her, but also what I so love about that work is the way in which she evidences this is,
[11:39]you know, a fist against the wall. This is a building of behavior that doesn't immediately
[11:45]strike so many of us as domestic violence, but it is. And so, you know, ultimately it was this paradox
[11:51]of I'm doing this thing that everyone is so concerned about, about my safety, but really,
[11:57]and the research backs this up. I mean, women are at greatest risk in their own spaces and their
[12:03]homes with, you know, enforcement partners. And that was certainly what I was experiencing,
[12:09]and really had no way of addressing it or even calling it, again, what it, what it really is.
[12:15]Well, your, what you ended up doing was like the ultimate escape, right, to go from
[12:21]cowering in the corner to basically fooling yourself into the universe and driving on this,
[12:28]on this desolate road. I mean, it's so perfect, really. It's like, it's almost like fiction,
[12:34]like you're, it's like what you should, and it's just perfect. But then, and as you, you know,
[12:40]as you point out in the book, and then of course I went on this big like Instagram deep dive into
[12:43]joys account and you and like you finding out and like, oh my gosh, and then it was so tragic
[12:49]that so you become like BFFs with joy immediately. And she's so nice and welcomes you there. And
[12:54]like she's so open to this. And you're so open and you have this whole amazing relationship. And,
[13:00]and then to talk about what happened then. Yeah, so we did this trip. This was April of 2018. And
[13:07]it sounds insane to say that I, you know, I flew across the country and suddenly I am so close to
[13:12]this woman, but there's something about the nature of being in an intimate space. I think with
[13:17]another woman. And the Dalton Highway, you know, is, is again, this really treacherous road. And
[13:22]we are, Joy had warned me that it would take us, you know, 14 to 16 hours at minimum if we hit
[13:27]ideal weather to do the drive up to the oil fields of Prudo Bay and the industrial complex of
[13:32]Deadhorse. And warned me, you know, if we hit anything, if we hit fog or rain or snow or ice or
[13:38]blizzard, which we did, it can take us dates, you know, the road just shuts down. There is not the
[13:43]infrastructure up there where the support to adequately clear the road. And so, you know, I
[13:50]didn't know what to expect. And I think you're right. In many ways, it made it, it made both of
[13:54]us so incredibly open to the experience and to getting to know each other. I did an interview
[13:58]a few months ago in which a woman kind of laughed about, you know, Susan Arlene, the wonderful writer,
[14:05]has this quote about if you really want to get to know someone, put them in a car. And I had never
[14:10]heard that before, but it was so true. There's just this openness where the landscape is beautiful,
[14:15]but it's, you're looking at it for, you know, 14, 16 hours. And so our conversation, you know, began
[14:22]around what is it like to drive this road? What is it like to be the only woman, you know, performing
[14:28]in this way, working this job that is otherwise male dominated. And ultimately, the conversation came
[14:34]down to what it means to be a strong woman. And what our society sort of holds up as a symbol of strength.
[14:40]And so for joy, you know, she began to talk about, she loved the highway. She was deeply religious.
[14:46]And she believed that she felt closer to God up there, that everything else kind of was drowned out.
[14:51]And she could just feel very close to that God. And that wasn't something that I necessarily
[14:58]shared, but it was such a beautiful, pristine environment that it was hard not to feel that.
[15:03]And she was very convicted that we had been brought together on purpose. And she kept saying,
[15:07]I mean, it really was a refrain of our trip. God brought you to me, God brought you to me. We are
[15:12]soul sisters. And you're going to tell my story. And again, the whole thing, I mean, you say it
[15:17]it felt like fiction. It felt like I stepped into a story in which I was a character. And there
[15:23]was something much larger happening there. And I, you know, as someone who is a little wishy was she
[15:27]with faith and has a complicated history, you know, I can't, I would lie if I said that I didn't
[15:33]also feel there was something profound that was being orchestrated in some way that was, you know,
[15:39]I was a part of something with joy. And, you know, she began to open up about not only did this
[15:46]road make her feel close to her God, but also it provided a financial means to support herself
[15:51]and her dependent daughter. And, you know, as a writer and as a woman, I think I understand what
[15:58]was being said there, but the more that I began to kind of ask about that, the more it became clear
[16:03]that that joy had also had a long and complicated relationship throughout her life with not one,
[16:10]but two husbands who were abusive. And so she had left this first husband because they had two
[16:17]sons and she did not want these boys to be brought up in a home in which they saw that this was how
[16:22]this is what it meant to be a man and to treat a woman in this way. And the job in many ways became
[16:28]something of necessity, you know, as she said, I make more driving this highway than I could ever
[16:34]make in fairbanks, you know, in an office job. And in a lot of ways, I think the job was both.
[16:40]It was this this way to feel close to God and to feel separate from men. And it was this way to
[16:48]provide for herself and her child should she need to leave her second husband who had also had a
[16:53]history of abuse. And so, you know, we, I think because that conversation was sort of a foothold,
[17:02]I was then able to explore again to this person who really owed me nothing. I began to explore
[17:07]what I was experiencing and to talk about it with her. Enjoy was really fiercely protective,
[17:12]you know, she said, you are me 20 years removed. And I know what you're doing. I know that you
[17:18]think that you can ride this out and you can endure this and it will get better and it doesn't.
[17:24]It does not. And it really shook me. It really shook me because again, this was someone who
[17:30]owed me nothing and who knew so little about my life beyond what I had told her. And in that way,
[17:36]I think I was able to be more open with her than anyone else who knew me or knew my partner.
[17:41]And so I returned from that trip at the, you know, the end of April. And, you know, my partner
[17:47]and I separated and I am one of the very lucky women who was able to separate without violence
[17:53]without further incident. I feel very aware of how rare and how privileged that is. And, you know,
[18:00]the plan was to return in September or October of that year, so three months later, four months
[18:05]later. And instead, I saw on Instagram no less that Joy had passed away on that drive. She was
[18:14]coming home from a trip to Prudo Bay. And it was summer. It was August. And so, you know, you would
[18:19]think that the roads are clearer than they would ever be at Northern Alaska. But unfortunately,
[18:25]there was such a thick fog that Joy drove her truck along the shoulder. And she was told to do
[18:31]because you can't see oncoming trucks. And the road is so narrow in so many places. And instead
[18:37]her tire bit into the tundra and flipped and she was killed instantly. And so I think, you know,
[18:44]I set out to write this book about, you know, this mother trucker, you know, this I called it my
[18:50]empowered, funny, you know, road trip story with this incredible dynamic woman from Instagram.
[18:57]But it became, I think, a project that is much different. But I would also argue, I think, much
[19:02]more important in the sense that the book talks about, you know, these risks that women take
[19:07]every day to secure their safety and their well-being and that of their children. And I think the
[19:13]fact that all of this happened, you know, just weeks before I was set to return also speaks volumes
[19:19]to, again, this idea about about safety and about what we do to provide for ourselves and our loved ones.
[19:26]Well, like you said, I think it's hard not to feel like there was some sort of fate at work,
[19:32]right? You find this woman, you sit with her, her story needs to be told. And then as you're
[19:40]transcribing, it ends like her life. And I mean, it's, you were in exactly the right place,
[19:46]like there's something about it that just was like pre, you know, not to, whatever your religion,
[19:52]it just, it's not really just like, I don't know. It's, I'm so glad you got to know her. And now
[20:00]I'll ask it to know her.
[20:01]I mean, she's a role model in ways.
[20:04]She's a warning in ways.
[20:06]She's flawed.
[20:08]She's, but it's also instructive for the reader, right?
[20:15]And it moves us.
[20:16]And then to combine your story with her story too,
[20:19]it's hard not to read it and then sort of take a beat
[20:22]just to rethink the ways that people are living,
[20:26]how you get through abuse, independence,
[20:30]what it even means.
[20:31]And then, of course, it all just ends.
[20:33]So it's like, you know, but there she was,
[20:36]looking at that, like her last picture that she posted
[20:39]was so, you know, heavenly.
[20:41]I don't even know how it's to say, right?
[20:42]With the, yeah, it was the sign that it was,
[20:45]it was the sun setting on Arctic Alaska.
[20:49]I mean, it's just amazing.
[20:50]And it was something that she pulled over and snapped
[20:53]just an hour before she died.
[20:55]And, you know, I also think grounding this
[20:57]in the context of 2018 and, and you know,
[21:00]you could say the same thing, obviously, about now.
[21:02]But Joy and I were so very different on so many levels.
[21:06]I mean, not only, you know, faith,
[21:08]but also politically, we had radically different ideas
[21:11]about ideology, about where our nation should be
[21:15]and who should be leading it.
[21:17]I mean, there were so many things that I think
[21:19]in any other situation, we would have a little in common.
[21:22]And yet, I think it was, it was really important for me,
[21:25]both as an individual and a woman,
[21:28]but also to explore that this is the language that we speak
[21:34]and so many people speak.
[21:35]And so many women speak and are not able to voice them out,
[21:39]right?
[21:40]I think one of the things I was really amazing
[21:42]of in trying to write about is that then of the day,
[21:45]Joy and I are two white women and we are, you know,
[21:49]rumbling around in this truck on this built up,
[21:52]you know, industrious road through a state
[21:55]that has consistently one of the largest rates
[21:58]of domestic, highest rates of domestic violence
[22:00]in the country and it's largely perpetuated
[22:03]against indigenous women and women of color.
[22:05]And so I think also trying to grapple with that
[22:08]with like the privilege that is being able to sit
[22:11]in this truck and talk with this woman openly
[22:13]and even be believed when finally,
[22:16]I tell someone what I'm experiencing, you know,
[22:18]is something that I think for me as an educator
[22:21]and someone who works with women specifically here
[22:25]at a college in Ohio,
[22:27]I'm just very aware of how even credibility
[22:30]is in many ways like a currency and a power
[22:33]that I have that so many women do not have.
[22:36]And so, you know, to the extent that it's possible,
[22:39]I really wanted this book to examine sort of all
[22:42]of those complex issues and absolutely be something
[22:46]that, you know, people regardless of what it is
[22:50]you believe in any capacity can see some aspect
[22:53]of yourself or a loved one in.
[22:56]And how did you then regroup after this whole thing?
[23:01]I mean, what happened when you found out about joy?
[23:04]What were the next steps?
[23:05]How did you like get back into life and regroup
[23:09]and trust again and you know,
[23:12]how do you rebuild essentially?
[23:14]Yeah, I mean, as a writer, I'm always aware
[23:18]when I'm saying something that sounds scripted,
[23:22]but I really mean it when I say that I honestly believe
[23:25]that joy saved my life.
[23:26]I think had I not met someone
[23:29]and been able to confide openly in what I was experiencing
[23:32]and the way in which it was escalating.
[23:35]I mean, joy looked at me quite frankly and says,
[23:37]it does not get better, it only gets worse.
[23:39]And, you know, you're sticking it out
[23:42]because you think that, you know,
[23:43]you see how loving this man can be,
[23:46]you see the moments of tenderness and kindness.
[23:49]You see the fact that he's grappling with his own behavior,
[23:51]but at the end of the day,
[23:52]you are still afraid in your own home
[23:55]and you are being made to feel small and weak and feeble
[23:58]and you're none of those things.
[24:00]And, you know, I don't know what to do with the fact
[24:03]that I met joy, she told me these things,
[24:07]it caused me to abruptly change the path of my life
[24:11]and then she died.
[24:12]And I, you know, for a while,
[24:15]I did not know how to proceed with this book.
[24:17]In terms of my day to day,
[24:19]I knew instantly I had to fly back to Alaska.
[24:21]I had planned to, as I mentioned, go up in September,
[24:24]October and do the drive with her again.
[24:26]As a writer, you know, you want to spend as much time
[24:29]with your subject as possible.
[24:30]I wanted to see the road in a different environment.
[24:33]We had been calling and texting almost daily,
[24:36]certainly weekly in the months between April
[24:40]and her death in August.
[24:41]And so, you know, I had planned to go back in September
[24:43]and instead, there I am on a plane
[24:45]at the end of August going to attend to a funeral.
[24:48]And it was devastating, it was crushing.
[24:51]I also was able, however, in those moments
[24:55]to meet other women that she had inspired and helped.
[24:59]I was by no means an exception to the rule.
[25:02]Joy really was this kind, open, helpful, generous person
[25:06]with everyone she met.
[25:08]And I was able to forge this incredible friendship
[25:11]with her best friend from childhood.
[25:13]And the stories that I was told even then, you know,
[25:15]Joy is like bending paper clips to make a retainer
[25:19]for her friend because her friends parents couldn't afford,
[25:22]you know, orthodontics.
[25:23]And so, Joy is doing her best to help her friend,
[25:27]you know, like these stories that are cute,
[25:29]but they also speak to character
[25:31]and to who someone has been all along.
[25:34]And, you know, while I was there for this funeral,
[25:37]I found out that there is something called a trucking convoy,
[25:41]a memorial trucking convoy,
[25:43]that when someone who is a beloved part
[25:45]of the Dalton Highway dies on the Dalton Highway,
[25:48]the truckers that are available meet together in Fairbanks
[25:52]in a transport company parking lot
[25:55]and then proceed to drive up to the start
[25:59]of the Dalton Highway, specifically the small town called Fox.
[26:03]And so that was a week later
[26:05]and I extended my trip and I stayed
[26:07]because I wanted to pay tribute to her in this way
[26:10]that everyone else that she worked with
[26:12]and loved was paying tribute to her.
[26:14]And so I was lucky enough to be able to kind of sneak my way
[26:19]onto a truck with another trucker
[26:22]and sit in an 18-wheeler as we drove up the highway
[26:26]to the start of the Dalton Highway.
[26:28]And, you know, it was something like 118-wheelers
[26:32]creeping through downtown Fairbanks with police
[26:35]and escort cars blocking off the road.
[26:38]And, you know, all of Fairbanks was out on the side
[26:41]of the road in lawn chairs, clapping and, you know,
[26:44]trying to get truckers to hawk.
[26:46]And it was just so utterly profound
[26:48]and I felt so grateful to get to be a part
[26:51]of that sort of cultural moment too
[26:53]and what it means to Alaskans when someone dies
[26:57]on that road serving really what is ultimately
[26:59]all of America because she's supporting, you know,
[27:02]the oil fields that keep America in many ways running.
[27:06]And so it was just profoundly powerful
[27:09]and really from that moment on,
[27:12]it has been my mission to help other women,
[27:16]to work to educate young women especially
[27:20]about what domestic violence sort of looks like.
[27:24]And again, trying to as much as possible move us away
[27:28]from this conversation where abuse is only physical
[27:32]where it is only, you know, battering.
[27:35]I mean, there are so many ways,
[27:37]and this is a crushing thing to say,
[27:38]but there are so many ways to abuse another person
[27:41]and none of them are permissible.
[27:43]And I think our society holds up this worst case scenario
[27:46]and it is a worst case,
[27:48]but there are so many things that happen so often before that.
[27:52]And I really feel like it is my life's work
[27:55]and enjoys name to do that work
[27:58]and help other women in the way that she helped me.
[28:01]And how do you feel now?
[28:03]Like, how do you feel now?
[28:04]You've had this whole profound experience.
[28:06]Now your book is out.
[28:07]It's gonna be a movie, right?
[28:08]Isn't it?
[28:09]Yeah, I mean, we're a little caught up in COVID snags,
[28:12]but yeah, I mean, we had Julian Moore sign on
[28:16]to play Joy and Beanie Feldston to play me
[28:18]and Joey Soloway directing.
[28:21]And you know, it's hard to say what's going to come of it.
[28:24]I think it's in many ways a risky project in the sense
[28:27]that it's no Marvel movie that all of America
[28:29]will necessarily go see.
[28:31]but I think it's a profoundly important story.
[28:33]Yeah, I mean, honestly, I feel really lucky.
[28:36]I feel I have always felt,
[28:38]I mean, the first thing I said to my parents
[28:41]when Joy dropped me off back at the hotel
[28:43]and Fairbanks after our drive was I said,
[28:45]I am part of something.
[28:46]There is something at work here
[28:48]and I am just a messenger of some sort.
[28:51]I am just a scribe because none of this has felt
[28:55]like something that I have been anything other than a witness to.
[29:00]And again, I think for someone who is not religious,
[29:03]it sounds ludicrous, but it's true.
[29:06]And you know, I have heard the book came out November 1st.
[29:10]I have heard from hundreds of women, hundreds of women.
[29:14]And you know, individuals who relate to some aspect
[29:18]of this story, who see some aspect of themselves
[29:21]or someone they care about in our story.
[29:24]And I have heard, you know, I've received fan mail
[29:26]from a woman in her 90s
[29:27]who has never before written fan mail.
[29:30]I had another woman who has always wanted to buy a camper
[29:34]and travel on her own, but has feared that.
[29:37]And mostly she wrote feared the loneliness of traveling alone.
[29:40]And she went out and finally did it and got this camper.
[29:43]And you know, there are so many ways to live boldly
[29:46]and bravely.
[29:47]There are so many ways I think to kind of enact
[29:50]what I think Joy taught me,
[29:52]but ultimately to have this network of individuals
[29:55]have any one reader who relates is enough.
[29:58]But I have, in many ways.
[30:00]It's just benefited from this chorus of voices,
[30:02]saying me too, you know, I have been there
[30:05]and I have been in that relationship and I have stayed
[30:07]because it's not as bad as it could be.
[30:10]And because I think this is what society wants
[30:12]for us in ways is to be partnered
[30:14]and to have this domestic life.
[30:15]And that's beautiful if that's what you want,
[30:18]but I think ultimately putting women's bodies
[30:21]and women's safety above all else,
[30:23]which is not something that I think we necessarily do.
[30:26]Wow, amazing.
[30:28]Are you working on a new project?
[30:29]I'm going to read everything you write from now on.
[30:30]I am an SIS at heart, I love essays
[30:33]and so it's been my lifelong dream to write an essay collection.
[30:37]And so I'm working on an essay collection largely.
[30:40]I think writing about joy has made me,
[30:42]I mean, the book is a strange little beast
[30:44]in the sense that it is both memoir
[30:46]and sort of literary journalism, you know,
[30:49]a profile of a really fantastic woman.
[30:51]And even in some ways sort of like travel reported.
[30:54]And so I'm currently working on an essay collection
[30:57]about other incredible women
[30:59]and about this idea of the leaf
[31:02]and the fact that it's in many ways this currency
[31:04]that some of us are afforded and some of us are not.
[31:07]So that's sort of what's at play right now.
[31:09]But again, I think just in many ways,
[31:12]I feel I will forever carry joy with me
[31:15]and that feels like a profound gift.
[31:17]It's amazing.
[31:18]And we both are being published by Little A, by the way,
[31:21]because we are, I'm so excited for you.
[31:23]And I did want to say too, of course,
[31:25]I took a peek at the beautiful new website
[31:27]and it looks absolutely incredible.
[31:29]I'm so excited for you.
[31:31]And Little A, I had, it's just been a dream team.
[31:34]It has been, is Carmen your editor, no?
[31:37]Yes, I've worked with three in my time
[31:39]and it's been so wonderful
[31:41]and they are just the most generous,
[31:43]whip-smart, supportive champions.
[31:46]So I'm so excited for you and I have no doubt
[31:49]you're gonna have every bit of a wonderful experience
[31:51]as I have.
[31:52]Thank you.
[31:53]Yeah, I love Carmen.
[31:54]She's like, amazing.
[31:55]The whole thing has been great, so anyway.
[31:57]All right, well, I can't wait for your essay collection
[31:59]and thank you so much for sharing.
[32:02]And I feel sort of privileged to be a part
[32:05]of this really important relationship
[32:09]and that it's out in the world.
[32:11]I don't know.
[32:11]I feel like everybody's playing a role here
[32:13]and getting the story out to the people who need it.
[32:15]So I'm so grateful.
[32:16]And I'll link on this chain that is very nicely important.
[32:20]Like I'm so grateful to be a part of this
[32:22]and to be in such a good company
[32:23]with all of the other guests that you have interviewed.
[32:25]I'm, and to speak with you is just a dream.
[32:28]So thank you.
[32:29]Thank you, baby.
[32:31]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens and you're listening
[32:33]to the award-winning podcast.
[32:35]Moms don't have time to read books.
[32:37]If you like this podcast,
[32:38]you will love my new anthology called Moms
[32:40]Don't Have Time to Have Kids.
[32:42]Check it out and you'll hear from 49 authors
[32:45]about all sorts of things.
[32:46]Moms don't have time to do.
[32:47]All the authors have been on this podcast.
[32:49]Also check out my TikTok at with Zivi and Tracy.
[32:52]My other podcast, Sex Talk with Zivi and Tracy.
[32:55]Check out Moms Don't Have Time to Write on Medium.
[32:58]And of course, my new publishing company called Zivi Buggs.
[33:02]And now back to our daily author interview site
[33:04]and a quick hello from some of my kids.
[33:07]Hi, hi, hello.
[33:08]Enjoy the show.