Anna Pitoniak, OUR AMERICAN FRIEND: A Novel

[1:29]Zibby Owens: this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. And speaking of books, I have two of my own books coming out this spring and summer. Princess Charming is a picture book, which debuts on April 19, and A Memoir of Love, Loss, and Literature comes out on July 1, and it is truly a labor of love. I hope you'll preorder, order, and join me on tour as I go across the country. You can find out more at zivieowens.com or bookendsmemoir.com. And you can follow me on Instagram at zivie owens because I always post about everything. Enjoy the show.

[2:08]Anna Pitoniak: Anna Petoniak is the author of Our American Friend, a novel. She's also the author of Necessary People, The Futures, and of course now Our American Friend. Before becoming a full time author, she worked in book publishing, including as a senior editor at Random House. Anna grew up in Whistler, British Columbia. She graduated from Yale and lives in New York City. Welcome, Anna. Thank you so much for coming on Mom's Don't Time to Read Books to discuss Our American Friend. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. It's my pleasure. Okay. So please tell listeners what your book is about. Sure. So this is the story of an unlikely relationship between a journalist named Sophie Morse who was once a White House reporter, attempted to leave the field of writing about politics but was beckoned back in by an offer from a mysterious first lady named Laura Kane, who was born and raised in Soviet Russia and later moved to Paris. And then later yet moved to America and married the notoriously brash future president Henry Cain. First lady Laura Cain asks Sophie to write her biography and to finally tell the world everything that Laura has kept secret up until then. So Sophie begins writing this story and the secrets that come out in the process of writing it have the potential to reshape the world they both live in. Love it. It was also so neat how the project how Sophie ended up getting picked for the project that she basically asked such a good question. And as somebody who asked questions all day, I was like, Yay. Go her for asking. Yeah. So she asked this very insightful question about the first lady's dad and his involvement in Paris and everything while they were in Paris. And I guess she remembered the question for so long that she was that she was beckoned to do the writing herself. Yeah. No. I think it's I I do think it's very telling when someone asks a question that proves they've really been paying attention and really been listening. It opens up this kind of trust between a subject and a writer, which is exactly what happens with Lara and Sophie. And I felt the same way. I'm so glad that Sophie had an active role to play in Lara's selection of her as her biographer. It wasn't just Lara picking her out of a crowd for no good reason. There was that there was that explanation behind it. So interesting. I also loved the Upper East Side references in the book Mhmm. Which are very close by. So Yeah. Yeah. No. It was it was the first book I wrote after I had left my job at Random House and was a full time writer working from home, you know, spending a lot more time in the neighborhood than I had when I was schlepping into Midtown every day. And I've always loved this neighborhood. I've sort of fallen in love with it over the years, but writing this book was really a reflection of how much time I was spending there and observing all these little details and all the neighborhood spots. So that was a really fun part of the writing process for me. Did you also have a front door and put on a Christmas wreath? I did not. But there was the a sort of interesting little side note to that is there's a real townhouse on East 70th Street, which was right near where I was living at the time. I've now moved all the way to 68th Street, so very far, that has a sort of interesting history behind it. This woman who wrote a memoir that I read as part of my research, she herself grew up in that townhouse, the daughter of Russian parents, and had described this very sort of Russian inflection to this particular building. I walked past it every day, and I couldn't help but think, oh, maybe this is where my characters could live. So I sort of picked out the front door that would have the Christmas wreath on it even though I didn't live there and was able to almost pretend like it was a real place for these characters as I walked past it. Oh my gosh. Well, I have now I'm gonna go walk on 70th and try to figure out what it was. I'll tell you which one it is. Okay. Tell me later. Tell me, like, put in the chat or something. That's funny. And you even have, like, the upstairs neighbor who was immersed in Russian everything and how the two of them and how he said, like, when she talked about going back, how he said, No, no, no. Like, I'm done. I'm never going back. And she's like, But you're still so in it. I mean, you're his whole apartment was covered in Russian things. And I was really thinking like, Oh my gosh. I can't believe this book is coming out in the context of what's going on in the news right now. Like, it's insane what's happening. So It is. I mean, how do you feel? I mean, you must have done so much research for this book. Tell me about that and how you're sort of making sense of Yeah. It know. I know. I did. I did a lot of research. As I mentioned, it was the first book I wrote as a full time writer as opposed to someone splitting their time between a day job and an early morning job. Because I had that time on my hands, allowed me to just dive so much more deeply into the research process than I did for my first two books. I've always been fascinated by Russia for reasons that I'm not quite sure why. I've always loved Russian literature. I think that was sort of my entry point into being interested in the history and the culture. So I spent a lot of time just absorbing as much as I could, especially about the cold war, about the KGB, the KGB versus the CIA and what it was like to grow up during that time. And I don't know that it's given me any special insight into the horrible situation that we're in today. I do feel this sort of conflict, which is that I can't stand Putin, can't stand what he's doing. And I do think it's very important to clearly state that Russia is the aggressor and Ukraine is being attacked and annihilated in this awful way. But I think a lot of ordinary Russian men and women probably don't support this war and can't abide it at all. So I feel this real conflict, which I think people probably felt at other points in the past, which is that you can love the culture and appreciate the culture and have this interest in it, but also find it completely repellent what's happening today. So I do think that one thing I picked up on in my research, which certainly seems to be true these days is I read a couple of biographies about Putin because there's a Putin esque Russian president who makes an appearance in this book. And in reading about him, it became very clear that he just carried this humiliation with him ever since the end of the cold war, because he was a KGB officer who had this very ignominious end to his time at the KGB. And I think it's clear to everyone today that he's acting out of this place of just totally irrational anger and humiliation that makes him a very scary person to be reckoned with. Wow. It's like dealing with the child, really. Exactly. You know? It's like a toddler you could explain to a toddler that throwing this fit isn't going to get him or her the toy they want, but they're not gonna listen. They're gonna throw the fit because something in them is causing them to throw a fit. Well, like the Putin character, I mean, the the American president and wife share some commonalities with the former president too. Did you write this, like, right as Trump was elected or when were you was this in the aftermath of that or what happened? When was Yes. So I first got the idea back in 2016, but it wasn't for a few years that I began writing it. So I read a profile in, think it was GQ magazine in the spring of twenty sixteen. So Trump was still just a candidate at that point. He hadn't been elected. And the profile was really focused on Melania Trump and how little was known about her. But this article was attempting to expose some of those things from the past. And one detail really stuck out to me in the article, which was that growing up in Yugoslavia during the cold war, it was a time when most people in that situation really didn't have much in the way of money or material comfort. But Melania's father was a member of the communist party, quite well connected, had this relatively comfortable job that gave them quite a good living. So she grew up with this kind of privilege and material comfort that was a byproduct of her believing in communism or of her family believing in communism. Then you flash forward all these decades later and she's married to the president of The United States, who's sort of the ultimate capitalist and the ultimate capitalist society. And I kept finding myself wondering what it would be like to make that journey from one ideological extreme to the other and had something happened along the way to change her mind. Now, there was no way I was gonna find this out about the real Melania because she's such a closed book and nothing's known about her. And maybe nothing did happen along the way. Maybe she's simply an opportunist, but I was really interested in those possibilities. I couldn't stop thinking about that kind of question, which is usually a sign that maybe you're onto something and this might be area to explore for your next novel. So it wasn't until the fall of twenty eighteen, about two years later that I began writing Our American Friend. And I was very certain at the outset that I didn't wanna write about the real Melania or the real Donald Trump. Partially again, because so little is known about the real Melania that it wouldn't make much sense to base a story on the real person. And also because I couldn't stand the idea of spending all that time with these people who I found so obnoxious and repellent. So it was a good way of taking a seed of inspiration from reality, but writing very much my own version of it and letting my characters evolve organically, have their own journeys, have their own paths. And I think it was also helpful to have this world to escape into during that time that was so chaotic and challenging for so many people. This was a way of engaging with some of the moral questions posed by our era without driving myself crazy watching twelve hours of MSNBC or CNN every day. Oh my gosh. Wow. So wait, can we go back and tell me about how like your job in publishing, I wanna know about becoming an editor at Random House, your other books. Like when did this start? How far back did you start writing? Was history like what was your main interest at school? And we both went to Yale, right? Yes, that's right. That's right. Awesome. When did you graduate? Can I ask? Of course, I graduated in 2010. I was an English major and also an editor at the Yale Daily News, which is sort of my that's the extent of my experience with journalism. I've had a few people ask about that given that the character of Sophie is a reporter. I've always loved journalists and admire them so greatly and sort of got to work briefly as a journalist at the college paper, but I loved it. I think that it gives you such a great license as a novelist when you make one of your characters a reporter. It's their job to go out and ask questions. So that's irresistible. But in any case, yes, when I graduated from college, I started working in publishing. My very first job was as a subsidiary rights assistant at Penguin, and then later moved over to become an editorial assistant at Random House where I worked for just about eight years gradually moving up and building my own list and becoming an editor in my own right. And I think it was in the spring of twenty eleven. So about a year after graduating from college that I began to feel the itch to do something creative that only belonged to me. That was something that I didn't necessarily get paid for or have that sort of obligation that you have with a regular job. I was also really fascinated and somewhat perplexed by that whole post college experience of moving to New York, of choosing one path and watching your friends choose another path, of suddenly being aware of these great differences that college had a way of covering up and kept you from seeing. It was also not long after the recession. I had a lot of friends working in finance, which was sort of getting its footing back, but obviously had just gone through this huge shock. Those various factors are what planted the seeds of what became The Futures, my first novel, which I loved writing that book because it was really a way for me to process some of the observations and thoughts and feelings that I was having in those post college years, but without writing about myself, because not a lot was happening to me. I was just going to work every day and doing my normal thing. And when I started writing the book, I wasn't sure what it would turn into. I didn't have the great grand goal of becoming a published novelist because I had no idea if it would be any good. And I worked on it for about three years in little dribs and drabs in the morning before going to work, before eventually having a finished draft that I shared with my husband and with my sister, and then eventually went out and found an agent and a publisher. Wow. You make it sound easy. Yeah, I know. And right now I'm like, Oh, that was nothing. But it was almost ten It's a little over ten years ago now that I first started writing the book and the amount of intimidation and frankly, just terror I felt when I opened that blank word document for the first time. Oh my God. I'm just very grateful to my former self for having started it because I think starting is always the hardest part. Yes. Depends, though. Sometimes it's the hardest Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and 365 returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zibby for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[19:14]Anna Pitoniak: And then what about your second book? So my second book, Necessary People, I also wrote while at Random House. And that was a very fun book to write, very different from the futures, and was certainly a reflection of a different period of life when I found myself thinking a lot about ambition and how people define themselves in terms of their jobs and moving up in various hierarchies. And necessary people takes place in the world of television news. It's about two best friends, Stella and Violet, who have always had this complicated sort of frenemy like relationship. When Violet gets a job as a TV producer, she feels like she's finally found a way to stand apart from Stella. But then Stella swoops in and becomes an on camera star whose shadow quickly eclipses Violet. Violets as it always has. And it's the story of them competing with each other and bringing out both the best and the worst of each other. And that was really a fun book to write because I do think that ambition is a theme that we all encounter, especially in a place like New York City. And there's a lot of good to it, but there's a lot of bad to it too. And Necessary People is very much a story about that. Wow. Okay. So now you have Our American Friend. What have you learned from like that I hate that sounds like a canned question, but now that this is your third launch, what are you going to take away even from a book publicity standpoint or marketing or with all of your experience and as an editor? What works for you? What doesn't work for you? What are you excited about? What are you not excited about? Yeah, that's a great question. I think the thing I appreciated the most the third time around as compared to the first two publications was the importance of only trying to control what I can actually control and to not sweat too much the things that are completely out of my hands. Every time I talk to writer friends, I say that the best piece of advice I can give just from a sanity perspective is do not check your Amazon reviews. Do not read your Goodreads reviews because there may be some great ones out there, but there's gonna be a lot of negative ones too, no matter how great the book is. And that's a good way to drive yourself crazy. I think it's helpful too to remember why you wrote the book in the first place, which is that it's a story that you're excited about and that you wanna share with the world. That is a really important thing to come back to when the sort of ups and downs of the publicity and marketing process hit. But also if you can really figure out what your book is about and what it means to you, it'll help you ideally speak about it in a more authentic way when you're doing podcasts or other interviews, or when you're sharing your own material on social media or doing a marketing campaign. So in terms of like real specific brass tacks, I used to be much better at this because when I worked in publishing, I had the chance to see all these great campaigns at Random House and what was working for those books. It's amazing how much can change in three years, which is about how long it's been since I left Random House. All the specific buttons we wanted to push back then. Now it's a whole new set of things. So I think it's just sort of staying curious and flexible about what's actually going to help get eyeballs on your book and move the needle on it. But one thing I've gotten better at, which I was not as good at on my first two books is asking friends and people in my life to sort of help me along the way. I think it's easy as a writer to feel very shy. And I think a lot of writers are sort of shy and introverted by nature, but you have to put that extrovert hat on when it comes time to talking about your book. And you probably have plenty of friends and family and people in your community who love you and they love the book and they're excited about it. So you just ask them to get that word-of-mouth going for you. Because I really do think the word-of-mouth is just the most powerful thing in the world. You're absolutely right. I feel like that too. And I also the thing of you have to see it enough times. You know? Yes. You have to see it or someone has to mention it or you have to be like, okay. Okay. You know? Yeah. I think Now this I think that's exactly right. I think it's maybe a little bit less about that one big mega publicity hit that's gonna change your mind. Although those certainly exist still. But if you've seen it mentioned in, you know, three different places on a friend's Instagram feed and in a roundup online and on a podcast, then you're probably thinking, okay. There's clearly something to this book. Maybe I should give it a shot. Yes. I agree. And what do you like to read? Like, are you reading right now? What am I reading right now? I actually I was just wandering through the bookstore yesterday because I feel a little bit like I'm emerging from this days of having been talking about myself and my book for so long and haven't quite had I didn't have a strong gut instinct of what I wanted to read next, which I sometimes do. But I was wandering through the bookstore yesterday and just sort of scanning my eye across the shelves to see what jumped out at me. And the book I wound up picking up, I can't believe I've never read this, is A Fine Balance by Rohington Mystery, which came out, I wanna say, in 1995. One of those books that I've always heard is magnificent but never picked up. And I just I think with everything going on in the news right now and the sort of chaos of the world, I just have this desire to escape into something completely different. And I started reading it last night and already am loving it so much. And I'm so glad it's a 600 page novel because it's exactly the kind of thing I just wanna escape into for a while. Wow. I have not read it. And probably because it's 600 pages. Yeah. It's very long. Yeah. No. But it's one of those books where I think if you if you fall in love with a really good book at the beginning and it's really long, that's actually No. That's a good thing. That can be such a good feeling. Yeah. There are definitely many books I wish didn't end because I love them so much. Exactly. But in general, I think that kind of sweeping saga, especially family sagas where you're following all these different threads, the grandmother and the mother and the children and the interlocking fortunes over the course of various years. I love books like that. I just find them so juicy and appealing. Yeah. Those are great. Would you ever go back to being an editor, even part time or freelance? Or I do occasionally a little bit of freelance editing, which is really nice because the thing I miss about the job at Random House is that sort of creative partnership that develops between an editor and a writer. You're really in the trenches together. You're talking about these characters and these dynamics as if they're real people. And that's such a rewarding and special kind of work. So every once in a while, I'll do a little bit of freelance editing, especially for a few writers who I used to work with at Random House where we've continued working together a bit. Now, I don't think I'd wanna go back in any full time capacity just because a lot of your time is taken up with everything else. The project management, the coordination between various departments. There are so many moving pieces that come with publishing a book. And I've liked being able to be more selfish with my time and devote that time to writing as opposed to the sort of bureaucracy that comes with it. Got it. Awesome. Okay. Well, I feel like you've already given so much advice. Any parting advice for aspiring authors? Yeah. I think the best advice I can give is probably the simplest advice, which these writers have surely heard from many other people before, which is that the best thing you can do as a writer is just get your butt in the chair every day and develop a habit and a routine. I think that advice basically gets dressed up and spun in different ways. But if you can figure out what time of day works for you, whether it's a half hour or an hour carved out somewhere and stick to it every single day, I'm a big believer in having that time set aside, even if you don't get a single word written, even if you're just sitting there rereading what you wrote yesterday, maybe tinkering with it around the edges, it's that practice and that formation of a habit that's really going to serve you well. So that's the best advice and the simplest advice I can give. And I think that if you really want to do it and you keep showing up day after day, it's going to happen eventually. There are no guarantees in terms of how it gets published or what happens with a book ultimately. But just by the act of showing up every day and writing, you are becoming a writer. So that's pretty cool. That is pretty cool. I love it. Anna, thank you so much. This was really fun. And it's so nice to know you're we're in the same neighborhood and so we can get together in real life at some point or whatever, cross paths and maybe we've already crossed paths and now we know. Yeah, exactly. Now we know. Well, and thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here. All right. Good luck with your heat and everything. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. All right. Soon. Take care. Bye bye. Bye. Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. If you like this podcast, you will love my new anthology called Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids. Check it out, and you'll hear from 49 authors about all sorts of things moms don't have time to do. All the authors have been on this podcast. Also, check out my TikTok at with Zivvy and Tracy, my other podcast, sex talk with Zivvy and Tracy. Check out moms don't have time to write on Medium, and, of course, my new publishing company called Zibby Books. And now back to our daily author interview site and a quick hello from some of my kids. Hi. Hi. Hello. Enjoy the show.