Daniel Black, DON'T CRY FOR ME: A Novel

[0:38]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. And speaking of books, I have two of my own books coming out this spring and summer. Princess Charming is a picture book, which debuts on April 19, and A Memoir of Love, Loss, and Literature comes out on July 1, and it is truly a labor of love. I hope you'll preorder, order, and join me on tour as I go across the country. You can find out more at zibbyowens.com or bookendsmemoir.com. And you can follow me on Instagram at zibbyowens because I always post about everything. Enjoy the show. Doctor Daniel Black is the author of Don't Cry For Me. He is a professor of African American studies at Clark Atlanta University and a native of Kansas City, Kansas. Yet he spent the majority of his childhood years in Blackwell, Arkansas. He now aims to provide an example to young Americans of this importance of self knowledge and communal commitment. He is the author of They Tell Me of a Home and the Sacred Place in addition to Don't Cry For Me. Welcome, Daniel. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Don't Cry For Me, a novel. Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here. Uh-oh. As I was just saying, I read this all through my spring break with my kids, and I will forever associate it now with this trip, and I will never forget it. I was posting about it, and people, like, loved it. They're like, oh my gosh. This is the most beautiful book. I'm like, I know. I'm reading it. So anyway, thank you for the bringing depth to the the trip I took. Depth and emotion and feeling and heart and soul and loss and all the good things that your book did. So it was beautiful.

[2:19]Daniel Black: I'm glad. Thank you so much. And I'm just glad that this book is being read and being felt by so many, many, many, many people. It's, you know, it's this kind of universal story of this dying man and his longing to be reconnected to his son. And it just shows that, all over the world in every place, in every home, in every community, we struggle with what it means to parent. Struggle with what it means to be a child. We struggle with what it means when our children are not what we prefer or not what we want. And in the end though, it doesn't matter nearly as much as how much we love them. Mhmm.

[3:00]Zibby Owens: That's true. Yeah. I mean, I loved your not in the novel, the reflections on the limitations on the ability to feel that love and that feeling love and having the time for love and and attention to the people who you care about is a luxury in and of itself. That's right. That's right. It's a luxury in and of itself. Well said. Absolutely. It is. And everyone doesn't get that luxury. Yeah. Right? And specifically black men in this country and black men of a certain age

[3:32]Daniel Black: were limited in so many, many, many ways, right? They weren't even given what most folks were given, right? And that is just the right of an education. And people can really underestimate how much knowledge and education means when one begins to parent, because it has everything to do with the depth of your imagination. Mhmm. And and and and the strength of your own self worth so that you don't try to extract meaning from your children's lives for yourself.

[4:04]Zibby Owens: Mhmm. Very true. I mean, when you think about the effect, even I mean, there were so many effects, but just the education alone, as you point out, like, what does that do to a whole group of people who then don't have the benefit of of knowing so many of these stories that are so important? Things not to recreate, things not I mean, just it's the whole thing is obviously just unthinkable and horrific. But where it trickles down to parenting and love and being able to express that love and prioritizing that when survival becomes, like, the main priority is That's right. It was so powerful in the book, this notion of forgiveness or, like, seeking forgiveness or understanding that sometimes the limitations of your parents are through no fault of their own. They're circumstantial or they did the best they could with what and then when you understand where they come from, it's a completely different relationship.

[4:56]Daniel Black: That's right. That's right. That's right. It's a completely different relationship. It's absolutely right. And most kids never really truly investigate to the depth we ought to what our parents were like as kids. And what happened to them as children that shaped who they are. We just want these perfect beings to love us and take care of us, you know, and to honor us. But the and the truth is that most of our parents have done an an extraordinary

[5:27]Zibby Owens: job in parenting. We just don't know how far they had to come to do it. That's right. That's right. Especially with some of the traumas and the losses. I mean, the main character's loss of Esau, his brother, was so I mean, I felt that. I felt that so deeply and profoundly what that would do, how someone's older brother, the source of, like, comfort and how they would snuggle and just having that guardian and from such a young age, losing him. I mean, it was just it's just so it's so sad. It was just so sad. It was. It really was. It absolutely really was.

[6:07]Daniel Black: And and that sense of loss, you know, so shaped Jacob. Mhmm. And the irony about that can I call you Zibby? Of course. Yes. The irony about that Zibby is that that loss of his brother and the love of his brother is really the only thing Jacob has as a gauge of what it means for a man to love a man. Yeah. But he needs that so desperately because this gay son of his has been the bane of his existence in so many ways. But the irony is that he loved a man once too. Yep. And he says it wasn't sexual and it wasn't sexual, but you he loved him so intensely that at times it it reads and feels as homosocial. Mhmm. You know, at least homosocial. And it certainly reads as intimate.

[6:58]Zibby Owens: Yep. Well, they were like in bed with like stroking his face. That's right. That's right. You know, the way, you know, and it transcends parenting when it's siblings. Right? But it's not inappropriate, but it's just very intense. That's right. That's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Wait. How did you how did you come up with the whole story? I know that it was your your own life experience in part informed this and the the narrative to talk to me about all of that, where it came from and your own family and all of that. The

[7:31]Daniel Black: irony is I never intended for this to be at all any of my own story. Mhmm. Right? It just kind of evolved that way after a while. What I was really thinking of mostly was the fracture between too many black men and their children. They're just so And it's true. I'm sure it's true for white men. I'm sure it's true for, you know, Latinx men, etcetera. But it's particularly true for black men and not all black men. So I don't wanna represent that at all. But there are just too many black men who are estranged from their children, who are distant from their children. And I wanted to write a book about a black man realizing at the end of his life that really nothing was more important. You know, so many times, black men and men in general will fall out with wives or girlfriends and the fallout becomes the center of their lives instead of what do the children need. Right? And we end up in court and we end up with these ugly divorce proceedings. Sometimes all of this happens and the children kind of just get lost in the fray, you know. And I wanted to really write a book helping black men to know if you have to sleep on the sidewalk in front of your children's house, do that. Whatever you have to do, do it to make sure your children are always clear that you are there for them. And because the day will come to where that'll be your only comfort. And do you have kids, Zibby? I have four kids. Four kids. And how old are your kids? I have twins who will be 15 in June and then I have an eight, almost nine year old and a seven year old. Okay. Okay. Okay. Great. Great. Great. So I'm sure of course in your life now, the notion that you would have no contact with your kids at all is unthinkable. Right? And it should be unthinkable, right? It should be unthinkable. And it should be unthinkable for fathers too. Part of what we've done in this culture is we made women central to children's lives and made fathers tangential. Mhmm. Like if the dad is around, fantastic. That is such a good thing. But the mother must be. Mhmm. And I think that's wrong and I think that's problematic. And I think it puts undue pressure on women. Mhmm. Right? Think it makes us ask things from women that are unfair, that are just absolutely unfair. And it gives men free passes in certain ways that I think is absolutely unfair too, in terms of the responsibility of child rearing. And I think we need I think we need lots of revision around this. So I wanted to write this book to help a man see that his role as a father was really the most important thing that ever happened to him. And in this case, Jacob, he wanted a child, you know, he wanted a son particularly and he got one. He just didn't get the kind he wanted, you know. You don't get to pick. Don't get to pick, you don't get to pick. And what's also true, of course I won't put you on the spot, but what's also true is children can disappoint you. That is true. In fact, I don't know any parents who would never disappointed in children in some way about something, right? That's part of the parenting process too. But I think that it's different for a child's behavior to disappoint us versus their being disappoints us. Right.

[10:54]Zibby Owens: Well, I mean, I think that's in part the onus is on the parents. Right? You have to put aside any expectation of of what I mean, you're not I don't know. As I've had more and more kids, my involvement in them, feel like is tangential. Not tangential, I mean, we're deeply sort of enmeshed in every day, and I all I do is think about them and all of that. But they are who they are. That's right. And they were that way from day one, before day one. They just they and I it is our job to sort of unpack that gift and see what they become and then try to bolster any of the strengths or unique qualities that they have. But the idea that as parents, we could decide. I mean, who's just like, who would ever think that we had that kind of power? Right? These were just creatures who were like ushered get to usher in the world, and it's a privilege to do so. That's how I feel at least. Absolutely. It's absolutely a privilege. It is absolutely

[11:49]Daniel Black: positively a privilege to do so for sure, for sure. And as I was writing this book, my father was ill. My father was ill and struggling with Alzheimer's as I was writing this book and he died the day I finished it. It's the craziest thing, he did, he did, he died the day I finished it. And in so many ways, I realized then that I had been writing about him without really knowing it and without really intending to, right? And it was a very emotional, very powerful kind of moment. And my father was a great man, etcetera. He and I had all kinds of tensions at times and but he my father was an awesome person. And it took him dying and me really thinking through to realize just how far he had come. My father was not a reader. My father could not read very well. And I have a PhD, right? And I realized, I said, you know, for that to be true, there must have been something he did well. Right? And many many things he did well, of course. But the truth of the matter is, I don't know that I had ever really sat down and evaluated the cost of his life being born in the 1940s in the rural South and all the unbelievable racial tensions he had to contend with, not being allowed to go to school because he worked on a farm, you know, he he missed far far far more days than he went. But black children's education, you know, was not compulsory yet. You know, and so it was not illegal for him to miss school and, you know, sometimes in a year he'd go ten or twenty days total, you know, and so to then turn around and own a house as a grown man to turn around and rear children and send children to school and have a son, you know, to go and to get a PhD is a gargantuan leap historically.

[13:45]Zibby Owens: Yes.

[13:46]Daniel Black: You know, and so that's really what I wanted to show in this book that very often progress is made and people achieve and transformations occur in people sometimes without us ever knowing.

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[15:42]Daniel Black: Well, as a child, I I was a reader. As a kid, was a reader. And my great grandmother who was born in the eighteen nineties lived next door to us in rural Arkansas and she too loved reading. And she and I were very, very close. She and I were very close. And I would read to her out loud. Her her sight became bad and I'd read to her out loud. And so I became an avid reader. Read and we didn't have books, we had the bible, she got Reader's Digest, and that that was pretty much our library. But I but I was a reader, and I I like to read and I've always been academic. It's very much like you said, ironically, and that is I just was who I was. Right. Even though my parents were not readers at all, I did not come from a reading household in terms of my nuclear family, but I was, you know, and so that got me started in terms of reading and loving knowledge and I did very well in school academically. And when I finished high school, I was a poor broke black boy in the country, but I got a scholarship to go on to college, a full scholarship, thank God because I wouldn't have gone otherwise. And I went to college and I did very well there. And then I went to Oxford, England and did a degree. And then from there I went to Temple University and thank the true and living God for scholarships because I would not have been able to go otherwise. I just would not. In fact, when I left home to go to college, my dad gave me $50 and he was like, I hope this helps you. And I was like, yes, sir, thank you. And of course that was a lot of money to him and I get that. And so I went straight through, I went straight through nonstop. So at 25, I had a PhD, I was done. Wow. And it's been a glorious ride and I've been teaching now at Clark Atlanta University since I've got that PhD and it's been absolutely fantastic. I went there for my undergrad degree and it was wonderful. And so I've seen what an academic life looks like. What I've also seen, because I come from non academic folks is how a non academic life is. And I've also seen what happens to black people in this country who are outside of academic spaces and what kind of life is afforded a person who is not educated. I see now why my enslaved ancestors absolutely begged and insisted for the right to read. I get it, I mean I get it in so many ways Zibby and I understand on so many levels now because what they knew at least what they imagined and it was true was the ability to read is the ability to think. The ability to read is the ability to analyze. The ability to analyze is the ability to understand your life, the world around you, how it works, how it functions. To participate, to become a participant in a democracy, to become a participant, you know, in a country so that your citizenship is guaranteed. And that is, it's so absolutely positively critical. Otherwise, you always see yourself as an outsider. You always understand yourself as being marginal to the center of the place where you exist. And you always have this attitude of gratitude for simply being allowed to exist, you know? And so this reading in this novel, which I think is so important, in fact, when Jacob, of course, in his latter years, he becomes a reader. And it changes his whole understanding of human beingness, you know, it changes his whole understanding of who he is, what life is, of how life moves. It changes his understanding of how people are conceived, right? It changes his entire notion of what it means to be alive. And thus he now realizes, oh my God, what have I done to my son? What have I done? Dear God, what have I done? At this point though, his health won't allow him to physically move, so he cannot go find him. And one of the things that I hope works, that I think works is he does a very dangerous though a very remarkable thing. And that is he puts his heart on the page. And because what he has discovered by reading is that you can translate your heart to the page and another person can get it, whether you're physically there or not. Words have this magical, magical power to carry meaning and to construct healing even in invisible places. And he hopes and he believes that writing these letters, of course the entire novel is these series of letters, is enough, will be enough, is going to be enough to transform his son's life. That's what he's really, really praying that it will be enough to transform his son's life. And we'll know in the sequel.

[20:39]Zibby Owens: Oh, the sequel's coming?

[20:41]Daniel Black: I in fact, I'm probably 75%

[20:45]Zibby Owens: through it. Wow. That is exciting.

[20:47]Daniel Black: Oh my gosh. When the sequel, it it's nothing it's Isaac answering the letters.

[20:52]Zibby Owens: Wow. Oh my gosh. I love that. Oh, I'm so excited. Do you have a title for that?

[20:58]Daniel Black: I do for now. Isaac's song. Aw. But I don't know that I'll stick with that. I might. We'll see.

[21:07]Zibby Owens: You know, I interviewed Anna Quinlan recently. She has a new book out or coming out. I don't know when this will air, but it's called Write For Your Life, And it's all about the lost art of letters and the importance of writing and handwriting, especially, but telling stories and letting people you love know. I feel like these two books should be would be a great sort of gift together. Wow. Right? Look at the power. Like, she's advocating the power of letters. And this is like, I mean, I don't know. It's like case in point, right? Right, right, right. Even in fiction. Even in fiction. Absolutely. Absolutely. Wait. So what do you teach? What are your class? Like, I wanna take your class. Like, you're such a you're such a great I just wanna listen to you and learn from you. You're so inspiring. Thank

[21:53]Daniel Black: you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, my class and I I I will admit humbly that my classes are always full. I bet. And I have so much fun with students. I do. It's just the best. It's it's the greatest. I have I just have such a great time with students. I this semester, I'm teaching a seminar in the works of August Wilson, unbelievable class. Just fantastic class. Just it's the most it's it's the funnest class I've probably taught in twenty five years. It's just amazing. But I teach classes like that. I teach classes like seminar in the works of Toni Morrison Mhmm. Seminar in the works of Ernest Gaines or introduction to African American studies, pro seminar in African American studies. Anything concerning African American studies, African American literature, black writing, black writers, that's the kind of stuff I teach. It's amazing. Well, you should do, like, a like, a master class or, a, you know, one like, beyond your university.

[22:48]Zibby Owens: Right? I feel like you have Yes. Such a huge

[22:52]Daniel Black: audience for that. I appreciate that. In fact, I'm gonna do a writing workshop at some point, probably August, I'm thinking. I'm kinda planning it out now because so many people have asked me for that. Wow. That's really exciting. Wow.

[23:05]Zibby Owens: Well, if you find any great books, by the way I started a publishing company called Zibby Books, and we we do fiction and memoir. So always looking for powerful, amazing stories. Absolutely.

[23:15]Daniel Black: I may make some suggestions to you. Absolutely. Keep me in mind. Pitch some I will.

[23:20]Zibby Owens: Talented students and everything. Yes, absolutely. So as a beloved professor, what advice do you give to aspiring authors?

[23:29]Daniel Black: I always tell authors two things. Don't sacrifice a good story with bad grammar.

[23:37]Zibby Owens: Yep.

[23:38]Daniel Black: Gordon. I always tell students that because so many students wanna write, so many adults wanna write and many of them have great stories, but many of them are not quite as committed to the meticulous nature of the craft as they are to the idea of being a writer. And I always tell them, do not sacrifice the grammar, learn the grammar. If you have to take a class, if you have to take seminar or workshop, whatever you do, learn grammar because it matters in terms of the quality of the story you tell, matters in terms of your ability to write the story. So I always, always, always, always tell them that. The second thing that the advice I always give to a burgeoning writer is to read more than you write. Because the more you read, the more styles get exposed to you, the more you read, the more you see in terms of form and possibility of ways of writing, ways of phrasing things, etcetera. And reading is just kind of, it's the method, if you will, I think. So I always tell folks, read, read, read, read as you write. So those are the main two things I say.

[24:48]Zibby Owens: Excellent. Thank you so much. This has been so wonderful. I've totally enjoyed speaking with you. I cannot wait for the next installment. I can't wait to hear what he has to say. I'm like, oh my gosh. Exciting. So anyway, thank you so much. Thanks for coming on and sharing Don't Cry For Me with the world. Thank you tremendously. I've had a ball. We'll talk Okay. Alright. Take care. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.