Jenny Mollen, CITY OF LIKES

[1:34]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, moms don't have time to read books. And speaking of books, I have two of my own books coming out this spring and summer. Prince's Charming is a picture book, which debuts on April 19, and A Memoir of Love, Loss, and Literature comes out on July 1, and it is truly a labor of love. I hope you'll preorder, order, and join me on tour as I go across the country. You can find out more at zibbyowens.com or bookendsmemoir.com. And you can follow me on Instagram at zibby owens because I always post about everything. Enjoy the show. Jenny Mullen is the author of City of Likes. Jenny is a writer, actor, Instagram personality, and New York Times bestselling author of the essay collections I Like You Just The Way I Am and Live Fast, Die Hot. Her digital series I Like You Just The Way I Am, which she wrote and in which she stars currently streams on ABC Digital. Heralded by the Huffington Post as one of the funniest women on both Twitter and Instagram and named one of five to follow by T Magazine. Jenny wrote a standing column for Parents Magazine and has contributed to Cosmopolitan, Glamour, New York, elle.com, Grubhub, and Wake Up Call with Katie Couric. With her Instagram handles at Jenny Mullen and at dictator lunches, Jenny has more than half a million followers. And by the way, Jenny and I are going to be doing a lunch event together. And I was a guest along with my husband, Kyle, on her podcast, Third Wheel. So after you listen to this one, you should head on over to Jenny's podcast and listen to Kyle and me on Third Wheel, probably revealing too much about ourselves. Welcome, Jenny. Thank you so much for coming on. Mom's no time to read books to discuss City of Likes, your new novel, and then your other memoirs and basically the fact that I've invaded your whole private space. It's all the stuff I'm reading about you. I love it. No, I love it. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. Okay. Let's talk about City of Likes. Okay. So it's your first novel. Yes. Were you scared? What made you write a novel anyway? Okay. So I

[3:40]Jenny Mollen: had a manager in LA who and I so okay. Let me back up. Wait, wait. I forgot to no, it's working. Okay. This is sort of embarrassing, but I'm gonna just tell you the guys the the real. I was wrapped across the boards at Gersh at the time. And this is and you know because I love Joe Valtteri and I never meant to leave Joe Valtteri, but this is sort of what happened. Okay. My dog, mister Teets, who now you've read about, he's my first husband, love of my life. When he passed away, I was just devastated and I sort of out of touch with reality where expected I couldn't believe that my publicist couldn't get him an opit in the New York Times. Seriously? It's like outrageous. Like, people need to know that he's gone. I'm so upset. And then I went through, like, the anger phase of loss where I did fire my entire team at Gersh because but at the time, nobody there mentioned that he died and reached out to me. And I felt like he was such an ever present big part of my life. He's on both my books. He's such a big part of my Twitter, my Instagram. And so when they didn't reach out, I was like, everyone has to go. Everyone. Have I have. So I I fired my team. Okay. Then I was without an agent. I'm sorry. Let me just say that now so you don't like. No. No. I'm over now for your last. I'm sorry. Richard Pine, who I went in and met with him and he basically looked at me. He had read a little bit of one of my books and he said, I mean, your first two books, they did okay. And I was like, what? Well, I mean, I made the list. He's like, yeah. Well, that doesn't mean anything. What? But, I mean, he's kind of right. So he's like, you know, like Snooki is a New York Times bestseller. Like, I can't really so I did get what he was saying. And he said and and he's charming. And he said, do you wanna tell me it but kind of like a dick as well, but but in a good way. Not like I totally like him. And he said, do you want to tell me? Do you want me to tell you? Do you want to tell me what you want to do next? Or do you want me to tell you what I think you should do next? And I was just so taken aback. I said, well, why don't you tell me? Why don't you tell me what you think I should do next? And he looked at me and he said, I think you have a voice for fiction and I think you should write a novel. And I think if you can write a novel, you can have whatever kind of life you want. Meaning, basically, then the world is your oyster Mhmm. If you can write fiction. Do you feel like the world was not your oyster? I don't know. I guess I had these two amazing books. I guess in the in a weird way, thought I I went in there thinking, oh, I'm gonna write an now if the first book is My Crazy Life Prior to Kids, my second book is sort of this reluctance to have children. And the third book would be about surrender and now where I'm at. I thought I was gonna do like a mommy book. But when I sat and I've left his office that day thinking, oh, he's crazy. I'm not gonna do that. And then I went away with Jason and I wrote sort of a pitch for what I thought this mom book would be. And felt like everyone in my audience was expecting that from me and that's what I had to do next. And I was so bored. I was writing for Parents Magazine at the time and so I was using all of my material already. And also my youngest was getting to a point where he wasn't just ahead. He was sort of a character. And I almost felt like, oh, now I'm kind of exploiting him and I have to walk this sort of tightrope. And this stuff is so boring. This material isn't funny anymore because I had all of these sort of constrictions. Yep. And so Richard just kept playing over and over in my head and I went back and I said, okay, I'm gonna fucking try to write that novel. And so I sat down to write it and I remember he was like, this is a beautiful disaster. Oh no. But didn't feel discouraged. I was like, okay, I'm going to try it again. I'm going to That was write the whole draft. Like you said in the whole draft. I sent him like 50,000 words. Okay. It's a lot. Yeah. And then I rewrote it again and then we took it out and yeah. So the the first time I took it out, this was the first time I took it out. I had worked with somebody to kind of, I don't know, chaperone me a bit, but I don't think I was miss I was really deeply misguided with this whole thing. Okay. It didn't it didn't not work. And when Jason finally read it after the submission was out, he's like, Jenny, this doesn't make any sense. This is a mess. So I called Richard and I pulled the submission, which is awful. I don't know. I mean, now you you probably know, but I don't know if your listeners know that it looks terrible for a book to pull the submission. I have to tell you what I did later, but okay, go on. Okay. So I pulled the submission and because I already getting feedback, negative feedback, like I don't think this is ready. I don't know that this works, you know, whatever. So I pulled the submission and then like I parted ways with Richard after, you know, I tried to sell another, I don't know, just we weren't working. Even though again, I love him. It just wasn't the right fit for me. And I went and I tried to write the book again. And then I took it out during the pandemic. And I got feedback from people where it was like, I don't know of a book about privileged white women in Lower Manhattan doesn't read as tone deaf in a post COVID world. And people were really at that point, like scared then to take the book. And so I decided, you know, because I can't put something in a drawer, I just refused. I took another stab at it. And then I went sort of the untraditional route of I found sort of a Hollywood producer who had an imprint deal. And I said, I know I can sell this as TV. I know this works as a show. I'm going to sell it that way and back into the book deal. Interesting. So then I sold it to Sony. And you know the deal I made with this producer basically was like, listen, can you get it bound on shelves? My ego is too big. I cannot do like just like a self publishing situation. I can't do it. I have to, you know, I felt like so this was a marathon for me and I wouldn't let it die. I couldn't put it away because this is this story I had to tell, even though I feel like nobody wanted this from me. I think everybody wanted me to do a funny, lighter mommy memoir. And, you know, I don't know. I'm not like the traditional, like, highbrow literary type of author that I think some of these publishers were maybe looking for. So it wasn't working. But I couldn't take no for an answer.

[10:17]Zibby Owens: Love that story so So that's how it's here. I'm shocked because it's a great book. Like, it's really fun and awesome. Timing is stopped thinking about it. Like, I was I almost text you because I was invited to this dinner the other night, which was like this one of these Oh my god. But not an influencer, like an actual, like, important ish, like, person. But, like, everybody had to go around the table like this? Yes.

[10:42]Jenny Mollen: Oh god. And tell you something they're struggling with? No. It's so embarrassing. No. It's so awkward.

[10:48]Zibby Owens: This exactly happened to me. And I was literally sitting there. And by the way, I was seated next to the membership director of a club like the club in this book. And I was like, I am like living a moment out of City of Likes right now and this is the craziest thing it's ever happened. It was a really fun time. It was amazing. I made great connect. You know, like people I'm like really good. Would love it to have been the same woman that I'm, like Anyway, we'll talk about it. I'll talk about it after. But I was like, this is the same moment. So anyway, Yes. I'll say, like But, like, the characters in your book are great. Like, why would I don't know why a traditional publisher it would have been a zippy book in two seconds, I feel I think yeah. I don't know. The timing, the whole thing, it just didn't wasn't

[11:27]Jenny Mollen: the right time. Maybe it's now is the right time and that I was saved for some reason. But, yeah, this one was and the others were so easy. Like everything happened so easily. Was just like, ugh. But now I don't mean like I care about this one more obviously because I've had to bleed for it. Wait. Tell me then. So tell me more about the show. So it's a it'll be a TV show or what? So I guess I can tell you now that so Diablo Cody is supervising me. I love Brooke. She's an amazing writer, I and I feel like her aesthetic is perfect. I also feel like she I don't know. I just I have a shorthand with her, so it's going to be such a fun process. I'm excited about that. Sony optioned it, so we'll basically maybe I don't know once the book is out, I'll take I'll take meetings and we'll pitch it, but we're going to write the I love for it. Wow, that's so fun. But again, for me, it's I know you're dealing with. Know no. It's just that I was smart of you. I had to. I was like I'm gonna get this in the world. Crazy. And my husband's just like, oh my god. Can you just, like, get over it?

[12:37]Zibby Owens: For my book that is now coming out essentially, the proposal for it. Yes. I sent it out to a bunch of publishers and I put like on my daughter's whiteboard, like 50 publishers or whatever I was sending it to. And people could call me back saying no. And I was like, I wonder what's going on. This is so weird. Yes. And so I was like, maybe I should reread my sample chapters. No. So I was like, Kyle, let me just read you my sample chapters and just see like what's going on. He fell asleep. And

[13:07]Jenny Mollen: I was like So you kind of had this same This experience

[13:10]Zibby Owens: isn't good. I was like, these aren't good sample chapters. This is You can't get too close to it. I know. And I was like, and I didn't even spend that long enough. Anyway, I wrote I wrote every You rewrote the whole thing. I wrote to all the I talked to Joe and I was like, we have to send the letter to the people who were left and say like, you know what? She's redoing it. These are not good. I didn't even have time to work on it. I'm a busy mom, but I promise you I'm gonna do a good job. Yeah. And that's how I found like the editor who like saw into my heart and I'm with the exact right person,

[13:36]Jenny Mollen: but I had the same. Yeah. I was like, should I just pull it? Should I? Yeah. Because what nobody tells you and I didn't realize because I sold my first two books on just tell me about that sheet of paper where I was like, I'm going to write this and maybe this. It was just such an easy, ridiculous. I don't know a couple of paragraphs. It wasn't a lot. Yeah, but I had I had already had a you know, I was writing for Playboy at the time, so I had a collection of short essays already that they could look at. Yeah, but it was just such an easy, smooth ride. And I went to St. Martin for the first one and then I followed my editor over to Doubleday for the second. Oh, got it. Okay. Yeah. I didn't realize with a novel, you really need to turn in a polished manuscript. It can't just be, this is sort of what I'm thinking. Right. Yeah.

[14:21]Zibby Owens: Well, that I'm like reading submissions for our company, I'm like, I don't know. Like when people What do you? Yeah. Like if you have something where you're like, this could be good, but we don't know versus like, this just came in and it's amazing. Right. So what do you do? Well, it's easier to go with the one that's amazing. But what about if you're like, I could make this great? Well, we do some of that too. I mean, I think it's a Yeah. I kept thinking like, don't these people want to like have a hand in the That's shaping of what I was saying. That's why I didn't write my whole book at first because I was I could write it a million ways. Like, I could do it a million different ways. But I would like somebody to tell me like, Okay, that way makes sense. That way not as good. You know, as opposed to like spending a couple months writing the whole thing and then like throwing it out. Like, couldn't I just start with like, right? Yes, completely. It's like training for something, right? Like otherwise I can have like someone could teach me the wrong way to hit a backhand 100%.

[15:13]Jenny Mollen: Yeah. Or you're just like, I don't know the rules of women's fiction that I can't have. You know, I don't can I say what's happening in the book? Yeah. Yeah. What is your book about, Jenny? Okay. Yeah. So also this is the book is about a new mom who moves to Manhattan and sort of falls under the spell of this mommy influencer and gets a little wrapped up in that female friendship that I think we've all had where you're sort of in a toxic relationship with a narcissist and how you walk that tightrope of how can I be both Batman and Bruce Wayne at the same time? How can I service my family but also serve this narcissist in my life? And she's getting gassed up by this person. The light is being, you know, she has a light on her when she's, you know, felt sort of invisible and lost in the trenches of mommy hood. So it's exciting and fun and she's getting all this free stuff and living this life. But then as we peel back the onion, you start to see how much of this is real. When I started off with this question of like, if we're curating our lives online so intensely, how present are we in our actual lives for our families? And it just, it bothered me so much, especially because I don't know, I follow a lot, a lot of these women and I'd see the posts and I'd see the kids and they looked like they were sort of propped up. And then the caption never matched what was going on in the photo. And it drove me insane. And I think that is what really just galvanized my writing the novel just over and over again. Following these people that you know you're like, that's not your life. That you're not happy. Where's the truth in any of this?

[16:53]Zibby Owens: I feel like I only follow mostly writers at point. You do? Oh, yeah. I could I so I feel sometimes I don't I think I feel like there needs to be following rehab sessions. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Where someone comes in and just sort of helps It's like you can't no. Just like don't follow those women. Yeah. That's why you create.

[17:11]Jenny Mollen: But then it became fun because I was like, well, I'm gonna just go after these people. And I had to like almost like screenshot and save in like a folder just my all time favorite post because they're so absurd, some of these things that we're seeing. I don't know. People dressing their kids up and like they're in like the slutty version of the outfit and the kids in the you know, I mean, just it's all it's it's so out there.

[17:37]Zibby Owens: It's crazy. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zippy.

[20:24]Zibby Owens: But I do wanna hear more about how you ended up writing in general because you share your whole life story in your memoirs Yes. As good memoirs do. But you have been wanting to be an actress for so long. Like Yes. This was like the like Yes. Yet you pivot and you're super amazing at what you're doing now. Not that you're not a great actress. Yeah, no, I think that acting was a gateway for me. I didn't know.

[20:48]Jenny Mollen: First of all, I grew up. I was dyslexic. School was never easy, but I'm very I'm just resilient, I think. And I don't know if that comes from, you know, just like struggling with school and but I've I've always had a chip on my shoulder. I just have something to prove. So it's like I had to go to a good college. And then I had and that's why I related so deeply to your book. I have that. And I also have similar to you like this, like, a bit like larger than my father that I feel like I need to usurp in some weird weird fucked up way. And so I was very motivated to sort of, I don't know, do something. Mhmm. And I love telling stories. But again, I I my grammar is terrible. I'm not a great speller. I didn't ever think I could be a writer. But I found myself in the theater department, and I ended up going to UCLA for theater and just started working. I started getting jobs. But I was always playing, you know, the girlfriend, the random patient, the dead body, just these thankless roles. And I never felt fulfilled as an actress. And then I married a guy again who was a bit like, you know, took up all of the room, you know, in the relationship to some degree. Not he's always like, why do you blame me? It's not my fault. I was already famous when you met me. I didn't do it to hurt you. And I'm like, I know, but it's annoying that you're famous. And it bugged that's like was the one reason I didn't wanna date him. I hated that he was famous. It drove me crazy. It's just like all anybody ever wanted to talk about was, so tell me about your husband, Jason Biggs. Or, you know, I only like it when I'm trying to get into a restaurant. Otherwise, I'm like, get the fuck away from me. I don't wanna take yourself your selfie with him. So you were so funny in the book about, like, the nail salon with the guy. She's The woman at the nail salon would treat me like shit. Then Jason came in. It was like full body massage, paraffin body dip, everything. She's upset. She's like clear people out of the way. Wanted him to be so comfortable. Yeah, it was insane. And so, yeah, so I think also I was so frustrated that my career wasn't where his was that I started tweeting. And I started tweeting, and I didn't even know I was funny. I mean, I never did comedy. I thought I was such a serious actress in college. And I did a one woman show at UCLA that was sort of my first book, but, like, almost like the serious version. I'm not kidding. And so and so, yes, I started tweeting just like out of rage. And at that point in time, in the, like, mid two thousands, comedy was really just democratized. Twitter changed everything, especially for female voices. So you could be Lena Dunham or you could just be some random chick in your Studio City apartment and you're putting a tweet out there and it gets just as many likes and all of a sudden you grow this following. It was incredible and it really changed my life. And so after, I don't know, about a year or two years, I had this platform. And so then and then I I said to Jason, I said, I think I'm gonna write a short story. And I knew a girl who had was a writer on some show, and I and she had a connection to the smoking jacket was which was this, like, playboy sort of comedy site at the time. So I sent a letter to them saying that she she thought that I would be a good fit, which she never did. I didn't actually really know her. And then I had an a short story I wanted them to post. And it shut the site down. I mean, I crashed the site. And after that, the the I don't know. The guy who was running the magazine at the time called me and said, do you wanna have a standing column on our site? And so I just started writing these crazy fucking capers that I was already living in my real life. And after a year, Joe Veltri was like, think you should try to write a book. And that's how it happened. Wow. It was so surreal. So random. But after I started writing, I'm like, I'm never who would ever want to act again? I don't know if I service somebody else's story. I always want to tell my own stories. I had total control. And then we turned the first show in the first book became a digital series for ABC where I got to finally, I got to cast Jason's ex girlfriend. I got to, like, cast somebody to play Teets. I I had, like, a casting couch with dogs. They all came in. Oh my gosh. Amazing. So, yeah, that it it really yeah. The writing changed everything. So are you over the, like, resentment? It just still I'm over the resentment now just because I I don't have time to resent him anymore. I'm too busy with the kids. I feel like the kids are sucking my will to live too often. I don't have time to, like, resent anybody else. Now I resent him more that he like goes away to work and isn't there to co parent with me. Because the best part of having an actor husband is that he is sort of a stay at home mom when he's not working. And I get so much out of that

[25:45]Zibby Owens: that when he goes away, it does feel like one of the legs on the chair of the chair is broken. Yes. Now I saw on Instagram that you like called in reinforcements that you're one of my God. Had to. Yes, I had to. Oh my gosh. Yes. And, you know, you now have taken like a whole new approach. Not new, but you're you're on the authenticity meter. Yes. And maybe it's an act, but it feels very real. Yes. Like, that you're very open about the craziness of life and and Yes. Having kids and, like, when you end up in the last row of an airplane. Oh my god. It was hell. And I was like, I have to give you a travel agent. Yes. You've decided to just be all in. You, this is how it is. It's not always so glamorous. Yes. You know, Tell me how that is and how that makes you feel and, like, that if that was a decision or it just kind of I think it comes from having two narcissist parents. I've nobody was ever listening to me. So there was no reason for me to not just, like

[26:37]Jenny Mollen: I I don't know. There nobody was paying attention. So I always felt even with Twitter as well. Nobody this is going to the ether. Nobody's listening to this shit. It doesn't matter what I say. And that's why I think I've always just been so open and honest about it because who am I am I hiding things from? Who's listening? And so when all of a sudden, it felt like I had feedback suddenly, it just reinforced that and sort of pushed me to go further with it. Got it. Because I, yeah, and I even, all of my amends letters I've written to Jason's ex, I've said to her, I was egged on. It wasn't really my fault. I mean, I was being rewarded for explaining to you. I know, whatever. But I just kept going with it because I felt like, God, everybody else must feel the same way. There are women out there who I'm connecting with them on some weird level. I think everybody must feel the way I feel. Not everybody, but some

[27:43]Zibby Owens: people. And it worked. And so also with the kids, you said a second ago, like, now they're becoming too much real characters so that you can't exploit them in the book and you're so careful to hide their faces and all And that yet you share all your own emotions. Like, this is something I always struggle with too. Like, I want to say this really funny story. Is it revealing too much? How do I know if it's revealing too much? Right. Know, I posted one thing that my daughter did that I thought was so benign and she got upset about it. And so now I'm like, I took it right down and I was like, okay, well, I'm never gonna say anything that this child of mine says ever. So

[28:20]Jenny Mollen: how do you know? Like, how do you know how to handle it and like, how do your kids feel? Do they even get the whole you know, like, how do they do you talk about it or all? Well, I live in fear every day. With that, I'm so scared that they're gonna Google us one day and, like, see Jason's penis and see my boobs in some guy's mouth. And, you know, it's just like there's so much to find on the Internet. So many stories about us, so much shit that I've like, you know, I and even in the books that I've sort of, I don't know, done. So I I live in fear, but I also I didn't even I don't think Sid even knew really what Instagram was until recently at school and his friends are asking him, but he still doesn't know that I'm on Instagram a lot. He just knows, oh, are you posting this? Are you posting that more with the food stuff? Kind of is. Yes. Wait. I want talk about dictator lunches too. Yeah. So he's aware of the food stuff. Yeah. For before the pandemic, I treated the phone like it was a cigarette and he never wanted them to see me on the phone because I felt like, oh, this is something that's taking my attention away from them. And I was just pained over it because I knew just my own childhood trauma. It was just me projecting onto them. And I felt like, oh, god. I I don't want to not be the parent that's, like, fully focused on my kids because that was what I always wanted. But how do you how can you be the mom you always wanted when you didn't have the mom you always wanted? So you're walking this tightrope. Now he knows that, you know, people will say things or he's a little bit more aware, and he doesn't like when I have the video camera out or video camera, my phone. I'm taping something, and he's not in it, I'm avoiding him. That drives him insane. He's like, hi. Hello? Hello? So I don't know. I think I might get the opposite where now that I've protected them so much, they're gonna say, what? How could you have just omitted me from your life? I don't know. I think you lose either way. It's true. You're damned if you do. You're damned if you don't. Yeah. It's impossible.

[30:14]Zibby Owens: Parenting is in general. Yeah. What I hate about parenting. It's

[30:18]Jenny Mollen: ridiculous. We have to, like, fail at some of it I know. In order for them to, like, turn out. My kids, like, wanna be YouTubers when they grow up. I'm like Yes. You know? I mean Come on. Yes. Wait, dictator lunches. You have a cookbook coming out, right? That's so cool. Yes. I have a cookbook that comes out September 13. That's so backed into each other. Wow. Didn't mean for it to happen. It's okay. But yes, it's crazy. And who was publishing that? That it was HMH and now the new their new sort of name is harvest. Okay, I think it was bought by Harper Collins and then now their little section is called harvest. Traditional publisher Traditional. Oh, and I love it. It's like hands off. I feel like I'm like, I don't have to do anything. I don't have to weigh in. I don't have to weigh in on. I mean, the normal things, but you knew all the stuff that I've had

[31:06]Zibby Owens: to do with this book. It's just night and day. And so are they your picture? Like, tell me. So how did that whole thing start? So so you take pictures of the meals you make? Yes.

[31:17]Jenny Mollen: I and it started off just as like a fluke thing. I was just bored at night and I don't know how to turn the TV on. And so I'm just in the kitchen rummaging around forging for snacks. And again, I just wanted to tell a story with these lunch boxes and it is again. It's like a sublimation of my own guilt because I'm a working mom. I'm not around all the time and I think this generation has it. Maybe I don't know if I want to say harder, but we were in it. We're in a sort of precarious position because unlike our parents generation, it's like, I think my mom could go to work and feel fine about working and feel proud of herself for working because she had a mom who stayed home. But we if you have a mom who worked and you're also the child that carries those sort of issues with my mom was never around. I'm a latchkey kid. And then you but you also have the drive and ambition to want to work. You're sort of fucked. So I'm grappling with this, and I want to send him to school with this handwritten letter. And food has always meant so much to me, and it's my way of sort of communicating with him and showing up when I'm actually not there. I'm not the one doing pickup and drop off every day. I'm not around to the way that maybe a more traditional mom would be. So for me, the food and the lunches

[32:36]Zibby Owens: are that. That's so cool. So what's like, give me a lunch. What should I do? Give a gift. Okay. So I'm really into like doing like a Guatemalan coconut rice.

[32:45]Jenny Mollen: Okay. So easy. You can make a giant batch with black beans and then I'll do like some roasted pumpkin maybe on the side. I always do like a weird fruit salad with different fruits. And you're making all this stuff? Yeah. I make this stuff, but I don't make everything. I also will use whatever I have leftover. So if we had pasta the night before, it's like I'll throw pasta in the the main and just make some like, I don't know, cucumber creatures or, you know, something random and throw it in. But, yeah, I don't know. It's it's so bizarre. I never expected it to become anything. It just happened. I literally was just posting it on my my normal feed. Yeah. And I thought I was annoying people because I was posting too often with the food. So I went and started this other account. And then I can't tell you of all this shit I've done in my life, I've never I've there's so many people who want to talk to me about dictator lunches. I'm like, why hasn't anything else in my life worked out this way? It's always the things that you you don't put time and effort into that take off. And for whatever reason, that was just this weird anomaly.

[33:50]Zibby Owens: So, yeah, so I decided I'm like, I think I could make this into a book. Oh my gosh. I love it. It's so cool. Yeah. Okay. So then are you ever gonna do fiction again?

[34:00]Jenny Mollen: Well, I don't know. I wanna see how this does. I'm scared. I I don't this was such a harrowing experience. It was not fun. I like your having the book, but it was TST. I haven't TST. It was not. It was so hard. And that's why I think I'm just like, I have to make this book work. I have to see it succeed because it needs that happy It's going to

[34:20]Zibby Owens: It's to succeed. It's really good. It's fun. It's a great summer book. It's like, it's got all the things. Yes. Good characters, unpredictable ending,

[34:29]Jenny Mollen: you know, the whole thing. Yes. Now I do feel like it's worthy. Yeah. But the emotional, yeah, the journey with it was not what I expected.

[34:38]Zibby Owens: What advice would you give for someone well, maybe not writing fiction because I feel like you're a mess about fiction. But if somebody wants to be an author in general or a memoirist or whatever,

[34:48]Jenny Mollen: what advice would you give? Oh my god. I would just say like, start putting yourself out there however you can, whether it's Twitter or Instagram or TikTok. The more you can sort of build and cultivate this following, the easier it's going to be for you. And nowadays, I mean, you can you can have as much writing as you want, accessible to everyone at any, you know, in any in any form. So I would say that just putting your work out there is what's going to get is what's going to get you that traditional book deal if that's what you're looking for. And just don't give up on it. You don't have to, when somebody tells you no, you don't have to accept that. I think oftentimes people throw things in a drawer because they're like, I don't know, nobody wanted it. But I'm here to tell you that doesn't matter if they don't want it. You're still going to feed it to them. They're just going to get it a different way.

[35:41]Zibby Owens: Wow. Amazing. Jenny. Okay. Well, you know, I love the books. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. I'm like, can't I really want you to write it doesn't have to be a mommy memoir, but I just want like a like, I need another installment. Like Yes. Because you have us all following along. And I know Yes. On Instagram, that sounds like creepy, but, you know, that we see what goes on in your daily life. Yes. But it's the interior monologue that I love so much. Oh, thank you. All the stuff. Yeah. I love that. Because I relate to I mean, I just relate to it. I mean, there's such universal stuff, or maybe it's not universal, and I'm just equally crazy. I love it. Which is possible. That's why you've got to stay honest because I think so many women out there feel the same way we do. Yeah. Very true. All right. Well, thanks for coming on. Thanks for having Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.