Katy Tur, ROUGH DRAFT: A Memoir
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[0:41]Katie Tur is the author of Rough Draft, a memoir.
[0:44]Katie is the anchor of Katie Tur reports on MSNBC, a correspondent for NBC News, and the author
[0:50]of The New York Times bestseller Unbelievable.
[0:53]She is the recipient of a 2017 Walter Cronkite Award for Excellence in Journalism.
[0:57]She lives in New York City.
[0:59]Welcome, Katie.
[1:00]Thank you so much for coming up.
[1:01]I'm starting with time to read books to discuss Rough Draft.
[1:05]I appreciate you having me.
[1:06]I'm excited to talk.
[1:08]I have to say, I did not realize until I read about it in the book about Trump's particular
[1:15]focus on you.
[1:16]And so I was reading it all weekend, and I told my husband about it.
[1:21]He's like, well, let's just look it up.
[1:23]So anyways, then we watched the footage when he was like, little Katie, whatever.
[1:26]I was like, oh my gosh, nuts!
[1:29]And you were not cable news junkies during 2016, clearly.
[1:33]No.
[1:34]Or at least not MSNBC, cable news junkies.
[1:36]Yeah, sorry about that.
[1:38]Well, why don't we just jump in and just start there?
[1:42]And then I really want to talk about your parents, because I found their story just absolutely
[1:46]fascinating.
[1:47]How did you get to the point in your life, and you already wrote a whole book about this,
[1:50]which now I want to go back and read where you ended up in that position, and how did
[1:56]you even handle that?
[1:58]So unbelievable.
[1:59]The last book is a really fun read, and I actually picked it up the other day, and I thought,
[2:04]oh wow, I did a good job with this, which I'm excited by, because usually when I read
[2:09]old writing, I'm horrified.
[2:11]But my parents were journalists.
[2:13]I grew up in journalism, and I wanted to have a big global adventure.
[2:20]So I rose up in the ranks from local to network, and then I found the network, and I moved
[2:26]away to London and had the entire world as my coverage zone.
[2:32]So I was going to survive in Indonesia, and Banda Adche, and Singapore, and Thailand, and
[2:40]Chrome, and Budapest, and I'll go on and on.
[2:44]And I just had this incredible position as a foreign correspondent.
[2:50]But then I came home one weekend to remind New York that I existed still, because sometimes
[2:56]they can forget about you when you're not in their face.
[3:00]And at the very same time, this would be candidate for president to send a set of gold
[3:05]stairs, escalator, and told everybody that he was running, and that Mexicans were rapists,
[3:11]and some were good people, and it caused a big kerfuffle, and BC said, well, why don't
[3:15]you cover Donald Trump for a few weeks?
[3:17]It would only be a few weeks, because nobody thought that the campaign would go anywhere.
[3:21]And then to go back to London, I said, sure.
[3:24]And a few weeks, weeks turned into 510 days, living out of a suitcase, losing my apartment
[3:32]overseas, and my post overseas, gaining a job in politics, and eventually an anchoring spot,
[3:40]and finding the love of my life and my husband, and now everything is changed, certainly
[3:45]I know the path I thought I would be on, but I can't complain about it, I got very lucky.
[3:50]Wow.
[3:51]That is a story.
[3:52]Yeah.
[3:53]Why do you think?
[3:54]I know you wrote about this, that you were really just texting to take notes of whatever
[3:59]Trump was saying, and he thought you weren't paying attention, and then why do you think
[4:03]there was this fascination?
[4:05]Why did he keep talking about you and all this footage and everything?
[4:08]So I think that part of it was, he saw me being there covering him as NBC News taking him
[4:17]seriously.
[4:18]You know, I was the first full-time network correspondent to be on his campaign.
[4:24]I also think that he was confident that he would be able to charm me, charm me into
[4:31]just repeating whatever he wanted repeating.
[4:33]And I think he thought it, I think he ultimately likes a bit of banter, not banter,
[4:39]likes a having to describe it, like the bouncing ball back and forth.
[4:43]He likes to spar, thank you, spar, spar, and so I think part of it was because I was the
[4:48]first one there, part of it, I think it was because I was a woman, and then the desire to
[4:53]spar.
[4:54]Well, that is such a wild ride that you went on, and it was wild, and it was really interesting,
[5:00]it was scary at times, and most of all, it was captivating to watch this country change.
[5:07]No matter what you think of how it turned out, it was captivating to watch this country
[5:11]change.
[5:12]And it's scary looking back on it, especially as we have so many people in this country
[5:17]who have decided that they don't want to participate in democracy any longer, that they
[5:21]want election results to be overturned, and they believe lies.
[5:27]It's scary.
[5:28]No, it was like the cost of a very scary time that we're currently living in.
[5:32]But Trump, of course, so famously, loathed journalists and thought that the media never,
[5:40]it was all fake news and blah, blah, blah, blah, and yet there you are trying to report
[5:44]the news.
[5:45]I mean, how did that feel?
[5:48]He loathed journalists, but he was desperate for our attention.
[5:51]Yeah, I don't think he even, I don't necessarily think that he'd loathe this either.
[5:54]I think he likes the bright lights, he likes the focus speaking on him and reporters gave
[6:02]them that.
[6:03]Wow.
[6:04]It was weird.
[6:05]It was definitely a really weird experience.
[6:06]It was not like any political campaign anyone has covered, it was not like a story I'd
[6:11]ever covered, and at times, it got scary in terms of my own personal safety.
[6:18]And that's for my colleagues.
[6:21]There were moments where we didn't feel comfortable.
[6:25]We all at the end of it ended up having armed security with us, like former secret service
[6:32]agents who would be by our side wherever we went because there were threats.
[6:38]Wow.
[6:39]Well, you come by this living on the edge, if you will, earnestly through your parents
[6:46]and their adventures.
[6:47]I loved learning about the rise of even sort of helicopter coverage, breaking news, how
[6:55]the team of them really reshaped things.
[6:58]The image of your mom when your dad was covering a fire and she was in this car with the
[7:04]gas, not properly, basically this Molotow cocktail.
[7:07]He was just so in it, right, and running in and she was there with her head bent over.
[7:12]It was such a vivid seat.
[7:13]And I was just like, oh my gosh, this woman.
[7:16]I mean, you know, I probably didn't explain that well enough to people listening, but
[7:20]there is a scene in which Katie talks about her parents and her, and they started young,
[7:26]right?
[7:27]Your mom was like, how old was she?
[7:28]My mom was, my dad was 18, my mom was 23.
[7:32]Oh my gosh, crazy, very young, very young.
[7:35]And they decided to get into this coverage by this, it was like this magnetic draw to
[7:43]to adrenaline and disaster, and your dad, especially just, you know, this is a total prefrontal
[7:50]cortex lack of development response, did I mean this is like why people can't drive a car
[7:56]until they're 25.
[7:57]And he's like running into flames and she a little older is thinking like, anyway, but
[8:02]also putting, putting them at risk in the pursuit of news, which essentially is sort
[8:07]of, is like what's happened with you.
[8:09]Well, I mean, I just, I think I saw that what they did kind of just assume that part
[8:14]of the job was that you, you run head first to the danger and, and like you were going
[8:19]to be threatened as a journalist, I mean, they had death threats after they covered the LA
[8:24]riots and my dad's the gun under his pillow, talk about that in the book.
[8:28]Yeah.
[8:29]And I think part of me just subconsciously thought like, well, you know, this is, this
[8:32]is what happens, like people hate you so much that sometimes they want to hurt you.
[8:36]And you mentioned that they, he gave you a gun when you went to college or you just
[8:39]hurt under your pillow or something.
[8:40]Oh my God.
[8:41]So I, I totally forgot about that until I started writing the memoir.
[8:45]I don't, I buried it.
[8:46]Yeah, you know, I grew up shooting guns.
[8:49]He would take me to the shooting range.
[8:51]It was, it was a great bonding experience growing up looking back on it.
[8:55]I have, I have some questions.
[8:57]But when I went to college, I mean, there's a lot that leads up to this tonight, you
[9:01]know, not to just throw it out there willy-nilly, but he handed me my grandmother's silver
[9:06]revolver.
[9:07]And he said, keep it with you for protection.
[9:10]And it wasn't loaded.
[9:11]And I just remember taking it and saying, yeah, okay, and I put it in my bedside table
[9:17]at my dorm room, which is I think completely insane.
[9:21]And I forgot about it.
[9:22]I totally forgot it was there.
[9:24]Didn't tell anyone about it.
[9:26]It was like buried under a bunch of stuff.
[9:28]And I think I realized it was there when we moved and I gave it back when I moved to another
[9:33]house.
[9:34]And looking back and thinking about that now as a adult who has her own kids, it's the
[9:42]most bonkers.
[9:43]I actually was, I was worried about putting it in the books.
[9:46]I thought people might think that I was nuts.
[9:48]No, you didn't.
[9:50]I didn't think I might think I was nuts.
[9:54]It didn't make you seem nuts because you so clearly outlined all the things that led
[10:00]up to this being a moment that didn't even cause you
[10:03]to blink an eye, like, and so it made total sense.
[10:07]I feel like that out of context would be very different.
[10:10]But once you've seen, you're like, oh, yeah, sure.
[10:12]Of course, he would do that.
[10:13]And she'd be like, OK, because you got picked up out
[10:16]of your bed to go be flying a helicopter
[10:19]and cover news things all the time.
[10:21]It's quite a childhood.
[10:24]All that.
[10:24]It was a really wild childhood.
[10:27]Yeah.
[10:28]I don't know what it was.
[10:30]You wrote a lot about, or not a lot.
[10:32]You wrote very well about your dad's abuse of tendencies.
[10:37]And later explained your understanding
[10:40]of that in the context of what happened afterwards.
[10:43]But even the external, all the people who could
[10:48]he overhear some of the violence and the footage
[10:51]that you listened to with your dad literally attacking
[10:54]your mom, I mean, that was intense.
[10:57]And how does that, how did you experience that,
[11:00]even writing it and reliving it?
[11:02]And now of the past the age that they were
[11:06]to know what it must have been like for your mom.
[11:09]Looking at that and hearing it, it's twofold.
[11:12]One is a daughter.
[11:13]It's visceral.
[11:14]And it reminded me a lot of the scary moments of my childhood.
[11:20]And it just really brought me back to a dark place.
[11:23]But then also in this moment that we're living in,
[11:25]the idea that it just wouldn't happen now
[11:28]where somebody in a prominent position
[11:32]would be on tape recorded, not just verbally abusive,
[11:38]but you could hear the physical assault, on tape.
[11:41]That tape would be on the internet.
[11:44]Somebody would have put it out there,
[11:45]even if they didn't have the guts to confront it directly
[11:49]or by name, somebody anonymously would get it out there.
[11:53]And it would be a known thing.
[11:55]And it would have been very difficult for the family.
[11:59]And it would have been destructive for us
[12:00]in terms of the ability to make money, which is such an ugly idea.
[12:05]But at the same time, it would have stopped it.
[12:08]It wouldn't have kept going because it would have been out there.
[12:11]But it was a different time.
[12:13]People didn't have, the internet wasn't around.
[12:15]People abuse toward wives and women.
[12:19]While it wasn't accepted, it wasn't surprising, I guess.
[12:24]And it was just kind of a thing that happened.
[12:26]It really got me when I got my first job in the news business.
[12:32]And I walked into KTLA, a place that I had visited,
[12:36]when there was a kid with my grandmother
[12:37]to drop off tapes.
[12:39]And this older assignment editor, he must have been
[12:43]at his 60s at the time, late 50s, 60s, walked up to me.
[12:47]And he just looked at me and he said,
[12:50]like, you're brought up to her daughter, and I said, yeah.
[12:53]And he said, I used to listen to him, you know,
[12:56]break your mother on those tapes.
[12:58]And we just made a face and annoys, like, oh, I walked away.
[13:02]And I remember thinking, oh, my God.
[13:05]I remember being horrified that everybody knew.
[13:09]And thinking, like, that nobody didn't even, but even at the time,
[13:13]I didn't even, it didn't even occur to me
[13:15]that nobody did anything.
[13:16]At the time, it was more, oh my God, everybody knows
[13:19]our ugly family secrets.
[13:20]It's hard, and it was really hard writing about it.
[13:23]It's hard talking about it.
[13:25]I'm being between, not between us, I'll talk to everyone.
[13:29]I am terrified about this book coming out.
[13:33]Everyone's like, aren't you so excited?
[13:35]And I am suppressing a panic attack
[13:39]because it is, it's so personal and it's so revealing.
[13:45]And I hate the idea of abuse being a defining attribute
[13:53]of my existence.
[13:54]And I also, I really hate the idea of my mom
[13:57]having to live it again.
[13:58]And I am scared about hurting my dad, if that makes sense.
[14:03]Yeah.
[14:04]Because my dad was and is, you know,
[14:07]we don't have much relationship now,
[14:08]but my dad was really fun, really fun growing up
[14:14]and so much, my dad was my hero for a lot of my childhood.
[14:18]And it's hard to rectify as I write in the book,
[14:22]the hero and the harm.
[14:24]It's hard.
[14:25]And it's hard to juggle those two things into, you know,
[14:28]and one thought, think back at my childhood
[14:32]and miss it, like really deeply miss it.
[14:34]And then in the next thought,
[14:37]be sick of my stomach over it, it's hard.
[14:39]Yeah.
[14:40]So why do it?
[14:44]So the pandemic hit, it's a few reasons.
[14:49]One was, it's a fascinating family history
[14:53]and I wanted to get it down.
[14:54]Just as a journalist, I knew that like,
[14:56]this has gotta, I gotta write this down
[14:58]because this is a great story.
[15:00]I also wanted my kids to have a piece of their family
[15:03]history on paper.
[15:04]My husband has a memoir about his also completely insane
[15:07]childhood.
[15:08]His dad was a drug dealer in Miami.
[15:12]And so they have that.
[15:13]I want them to have my side of it also.
[15:15]And I want them to know more about me
[15:17]because I feel like Los Angeles is so much a part
[15:19]of my identity, but it's lost.
[15:20]I've been here for so long in New York
[15:21]that that side of me is if I didn't get it down,
[15:25]it would have, would have disappeared.
[15:27]I wanted to know what streets in the Palisades
[15:29]because I send a letter time there.
[15:30]I was like, okay, where is this?
[15:33]I'm trying, I have a guess at this location
[15:36]we can talk after.
[15:37]I don't know.
[15:37]You don't have to reveal it.
[15:38]I can never, for many streets.
[15:40]I can tell you what I know.
[15:41]Yeah, the Palisades, I love the Palisades.
[15:43]You know what I'm going to ask.
[15:45]What is your husband's book for people interested in?
[15:48]My husband's book is called The Last Pirate.
[15:51]He would roll his eyes at me talking about it.
[15:54]I asked you to talk about it.
[15:57]It's called The Last Pirate.
[15:58]It's about his growing up having no idea who his dad was
[16:03]after the age of more no idea period.
[16:05]But when he was 10, his dad disappeared
[16:07]and his mom just said, oh, I think he's dead.
[16:09]And when he was in his 20s, he got curious
[16:13]and he started to dig around and find out what happened to him.
[16:16]And he on a large petition the National Archives
[16:19]to see if they had any information about Anthony the Copple.
[16:22]And they sent him back thousands of pages of an indictment.
[16:26]It was the United States versus Anthony the Copple.
[16:30]It was the court case that landed him in prison.
[16:33]It was like a 10 million pound, 10 million pound marijuana bust.
[16:40]Wow.
[16:40]It's interesting.
[16:41]The whole thing starts out with him on a road trip
[16:44]with his mom after they had just dug up a cooler
[16:49]from his aunt's backyard, which contained $500,000 in cash.
[16:54]Wow.
[16:55]Which he didn't know about at the time.
[16:56]His mom didn't tell.
[16:58]Did they keep it?
[16:59]Did anyone keep it?
[17:00]Oh, they kept that.
[17:01]Definitely, they kept it.
[17:02]Yes, definitely.
[17:03]They kept it.
[17:04]I wonder how they used it.
[17:06]I think they kept it.
[17:08]Anyway, so back to the pandemic.
[17:11]Everybody had an experience in the pandemic
[17:15]where they thought to themselves,
[17:16]because we were all so isolated and so forced
[17:19]to confront our lives.
[17:22]They thought, is this what I want to do with myself?
[17:24]Am I the person that I should be?
[17:27]And so in that forced state of self-reflection,
[17:30]I started to wonder if I really should have been a journalist.
[17:36]Like did I become a journalist
[17:37]because I wanted to be a journalist
[17:39]or did I become a journalist?
[17:40]Because my parents put me on that path.
[17:44]And then the country is falling apart.
[17:48]Is my job a good job?
[17:50]And am I doing good for society with my work?
[17:54]My question that.
[17:56]And then my mom sent me, you know,
[17:58]I got dark in my head.
[17:59]And my mom sent me the hard drive
[18:02]containing all the footage that she and my dad shot over the years.
[18:06]And it was like my childhood in a box.
[18:11]And I remember opening it up and looking for the videos
[18:13]and thinking, and then being just brought back
[18:16]into all of the complicated emotions I felt
[18:20]and realizing that I couldn't answer the question
[18:24]of where I'm going without looking at where I'd been.
[18:28]And in order to do that, I could start going therapy.
[18:33]I've already done therapy when I was younger.
[18:36]And I found it helpful, but also hard
[18:38]because I just hysterically cried through every session.
[18:42]Or I could write it down.
[18:45]And writing unbelievable was cathartic
[18:47]and helping it through the craziness of the 2016 election.
[18:52]And so I did it with rough trash.
[18:54]And I say it was a whole lot harder than writing
[18:58]about an experience, a contained experience.
[19:01]And there were many moments where I thought,
[19:03]oh my God, I shouldn't do this.
[19:06]I should quit, but I didn't.
[19:08]And now it's all down.
[19:09]And I think I feel better.
[19:14]I mean, it's one thing to write it down.
[19:17]And then it's another thing to decide
[19:19]to release it to the public.
[19:20]Right, you could have kept it for your kids
[19:22]and you're just to work on your own mental health.
[19:24]But there at some point is a decision
[19:26]probably because it's such a good book.
[19:27]You're like, well, I've better so.
[19:28]I mean, that's what I would think is like,
[19:30]well, now I wrote it and it's really good.
[19:31]I've better sell it.
[19:33]I would, to be honest, without the deadline
[19:36]of the pressure of a contract,
[19:37]I would have never done it.
[19:38]I know that's how I operate.
[19:39]I just would have never, never done it otherwise.
[19:44]So what would happen that you would be like,
[19:49]I'm so glad, that fear was unnecessary.
[19:51]I'm so glad I did it.
[19:52]Like, in your best case scenario,
[19:55]is it that other people who have experienced abuse
[19:58]and their families come to you.
[20:00]say, oh my gosh, I feel understand.
[20:01]I feel less alone.
[20:02]Is it people saying like getting critical acclaim for the book?
[20:06]Is it like what is it that would make it worth it to you
[20:09]to get over the sphere if you knew it now?
[20:11]I hope that it's, you know,
[20:14]I do hope that it helps some people and I, you know,
[20:17]I have, I feel it's very presumptuous to say
[20:20]I wrote this to help other people.
[20:22]But I've given it to a few people that I am close with
[20:25]or that I know that I thought I knew well.
[20:27]Some of my colleagues especially and they read it
[20:30]and they've said, oh, this is very familiar to me
[20:33]and I was surprised by that.
[20:35]So that made it feel better.
[20:37]I think mostly I'd like to come to some peace with my dad.
[20:43]Yeah.
[20:44]Well, I didn't even have that relationship.
[20:47]We didn't even discuss one of the bigger pieces
[20:50]of your story too, which is what's happened with your dad
[20:54]and his, why don't you tell that story?
[20:56]Because you told it right now.
[20:57]Yeah, it's the pronouns get difficult here.
[20:59]I will, yeah.
[21:00]I'm a disclaimer that it's hard for everybody.
[21:03]And when I talk about my dad in the past,
[21:05]I use he and when I talk about my dad in the present
[21:10]or post 2013, it's she, my dad transitioned
[21:14]or began the process of transitioning to 2013.
[21:17]And she called me and told me that she was making
[21:20]this decision while I was covering the Boston marathon
[21:24]bombings completely.
[21:26]For me, it felt completely out of the blue.
[21:28]For her, it was certainly not.
[21:29]And it was a moment where she said,
[21:35]this is gonna be great because this is the reason
[21:40]I have been so angry.
[21:42]This is where all my rage has come from
[21:44]and this means it everything's better.
[21:46]And I said, okay, that's great, but I do think we need to
[21:51]and I avoided doing this for so long
[21:53]because I knew that it was just gliding a match.
[21:56]And I said, I think we need to address some of the stuff
[22:01]that happened in my childhood that happened
[22:04]while I was growing up, the way that you treated mom
[22:08]and the way that you treated me and my brother.
[22:11]And I just think we need to reckon with it
[22:14]if we really wanna move forward and change
[22:17]and become the best versions
[22:20]or the most honest versions of ourselves.
[22:23]And it was like lighting a match
[22:28]and I turned her box and it blew up
[22:30]and then I got the flames under control.
[22:33]And she just didn't wanna talk about it.
[22:40]And it just, it was okay and then it wasn't okay
[22:46]and we didn't talk about it
[22:48]and we still really haven't talked about it.
[22:50]And it's it's resulted in on her side
[22:55]some public blowups and jabs at me
[23:00]which were really hurtful.
[23:03]And I didn't really wanna get into any of it.
[23:05]So I don't wanna talk about the abuse.
[23:06]So I just kind of shut up and didn't say anything.
[23:09]And I just didn't feel like that was appropriate
[23:11]to be out there.
[23:13]It's personal private family stuff.
[23:16]I think them on the cusp of that generation
[23:17]where like being tough was the most valued
[23:20]and prized attribute for a woman.
[23:22]And so I'm tough.
[23:23]I can deal with this.
[23:24]I don't need to talk about my vulnerability.
[23:26]And I know that like the generation or the women
[23:29]who are even slightly younger than me
[23:31]have a much better way of embracing their vulnerability
[23:36]and leading with it.
[23:37]But I wasn't in that space.
[23:40]And then I, you know, so documentary came kind of rambling.
[23:44]I've been told that I ramble so I'm sorry.
[23:47]That's okay, it's a podcast.
[23:48]Yeah, this is the best way to detect podcasts.
[23:50]So yeah, so that's what happened with the relationship.
[23:53]It's just, it's where it's strange.
[23:55]And it takes two in any of the strange men.
[23:59]I think there's one in five people
[24:01]that have a close family of strange men,
[24:04]which is a lot of people.
[24:05]That is a lot of people.
[24:05]And you know, it's both of us at this point.
[24:10]It just takes it and pick it up a phone.
[24:12]And I think that I don't want us,
[24:14]I don't want us to do it for whatever really.
[24:16]I wonder what will happen after this comes out.
[24:19]If the phone, I do, I do, I do, I'm scared.
[24:23]I'm scared, definitely scared.
[24:25]Well, it's pretty amazing that you're doing it anyway.
[24:29]I think when you are writers who are scared
[24:32]and who are really putting it out there,
[24:34]those are the best stories to read, honestly.
[24:37]And if you're not taking risks,
[24:38]really, if you're not like going deep into the real stuff,
[24:42]the reader knows that, right?
[24:45]Yeah.
[24:46]So I think it's a good sign, is all I'm trying to say.
[24:48]And I have to say also, I mean,
[24:51]before I started this podcast,
[24:53]you know, I would have thought abuse was like X percent.
[24:58]And now I feel like it's like 10 X percent.
[25:01]In other words, like every, especially in memoir,
[25:04]or maybe there's just something about the memoir genre
[25:06]that really, or the people publishing memoirs
[25:08]or maybe it's like a not a fair representation,
[25:11]but there's so much abuse.
[25:13]Right, but also part of it is that it's complicated.
[25:16]You know, it's not a lot of abuse, it's not,
[25:19]it's not so black and white, where it's like,
[25:21]this is, this was an abusive person and they are awful.
[25:24]Now there you need to condemn them to history.
[25:27]Absolutely.
[25:28]There is love there.
[25:29]And the relationships are fraught.
[25:31]You know, there is, there is abuse,
[25:32]but then there's also, you know, the kind words
[25:35]and the, and the embraces and the fun.
[25:39]And I think people don't talk about it
[25:42]because they don't wanna wash away everything else.
[25:45]Or they think to themselves, it wasn't that big of a deal.
[25:48]Because look at all this other stuff.
[25:50]Did you guys still think about?
[25:51]Have you read, I think it's called Never Simple by Liz Shire?
[25:55]You might wonder what happened on.
[25:56]It's a memoir, it's really interesting.
[25:59]Her mom had some mental illness.
[26:01]But even when we talked about it,
[26:02]she's like, I hope I'm making clear
[26:04]that how much I, you know, I loved her,
[26:07]even though it was so difficult.
[26:08]And it's a very similar thing that you're saying,
[26:10]like when you expose the worst of people,
[26:13]you don't want them.
[26:14]You know, it's the whole thing of like,
[26:15]I can say my mom's annoying,
[26:16]but like, I don't want you saying my mom's annoying.
[26:19]Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly.
[26:22]I'll make fun of my brother,
[26:23]but you can't make fun.
[26:24]I mean, not that I'm making fun of my mom.
[26:25]Yeah.
[26:26]But like, I certainly don't want anyone else doing that, so.
[26:29]Yeah, it's because you don't,
[26:30]because you don't want people to,
[26:33]you don't want something to be painted
[26:34]with a very broad brush.
[26:37]And I think we have a tendency in this moment
[26:40]what that we're into,
[26:42]just be very cut and dry about people,
[26:47]about things that were said.
[26:49]And I find in my personal experience,
[26:52]it's much harder than that.
[26:55]Okay. Well, Katie,
[26:56]I think you have nothing to be scared of.
[26:58]I'm really excited for you.
[27:00]I do believe this is gonna help a lot of people.
[27:02]I loved reading this book.
[27:03]I really couldn't put it down and sincerely enjoyed it.
[27:07]And couldn't wait to read it.
[27:08]And then it was not at all disappointed.
[27:11]And I just love stories that, you know,
[27:14]I just thought it was great.
[27:15]So put on whatever fortification needed
[27:18]because it's great.
[27:20]It's just, I don't know, congratulations.
[27:24]Thank you so much.
[27:25]And I'm so honored that you want to have me.
[27:27]I think you're amazing.
[27:28]And I love this podcast.
[27:30]I love the conversations you have.
[27:31]So thank you.
[27:32]Thank you.
[27:33]That made my day.
[27:35]All right.
[27:37]Thanks so much.
[27:38]Hope our paths cross in person sometimes.
[27:39]See you later, of course.
[27:41]Okay, bye bye.
[27:42]Bye, Zibi.
[27:45]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[27:46]Don't have time to read books.
[27:48]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[27:51]and at Moms.
[27:52]Don't have time to read books.
[27:53]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com
[27:56]and sign up for my virtual book club
[27:57]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[28:00]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound
[28:03]for the Sound Editing.
[28:04]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[28:06]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.