Kimberly Brown, NEXT MOVE, BEST MOVE: Transitioning Into a Career You'll Love

[1:33]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, the creator and host of the award winning podcast that you're listening to right now. Thank you so much. Books. It is a daily podcast three hundred and sixty five days a year, and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career, their book, their life, and more in thirty minutes or less because who has time? I am now an author myself, although I wasn't when I started this podcast, and you can get my new memoir, A Memoir of Love, Loss, and Literature wherever books are sold starting July 1, and my children's book, Princess Charming. You can learn more about me at zibbyowens.com. But really, you're here to learn more about the authors, and that is what we're going to do. Also, sure to check out all the other podcasts in the ZCast Podcast Network. You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com, and definitely check out those shows as well. Kimberly B. Cummings is the author of Next Move, Transitioning into a Career You'll Love. She is a leading career and leadership development expert and an accomplished speaker and podcast host whose mission is to empower women and people of color in the workplace. Her personal and professional development company, Manifest Yourself LLC, provides in person and virtual workshops, trainings, and coaching to professionals looking to lead a dynamic career and life. She is regularly featured in national media, including NPR, Harvard Business Review, CNN, Forbes, HuffPost, BuzzFeed, and more. She has spoken to and created workshops for many organizations, including the New Jersey Conference for Women, Elevate Network, Urban League, Princeton University, and National Sales Network, South by Southwest, among others. She is also on the board of directors for the Power of You Teens organization. Next move, Best Move is her first book and available wherever books are sold. Welcome, Kimberly. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Next Move, Transitioning into a Career You Love. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here with you. Oh, it's my pleasure. Why don't you tell listeners a little about your book and why you were the perfect person to write it? Monique Oh gosh. Okay. So

[3:41]Kimberly Brown: I spent nearly ten years in higher education. I always joke and say that I've worked with folks who are age 18 who don't know what to do with their lives, all the way through in their 60s, to put all of their experiences together to really just enjoy the world of work. I worked in university career services and then transitioned into talent acquisition at a Fortune 100 company in financial services. So I've dedicated most of my professional life to helping people navigate the world of work and hopefully transition into a career that they'll love. And for me, when I think about career transitioning, it's not just your first job out of college or moving from finance to marketing or some huge catastrophic move. It could be any type of transition in the workplace that makes things different for you. Just re navigating and hoping that you find something that brings you joy is a transition in itself. So this is a culmination of all the work of the private clients I've had in my private practice, as well as working in higher ed and in corporate finance and a talent acquisition

[4:40]Zibby Owens: to put everything together. That's something tangible that people can take to really build out a two year career strategy. Amazing. I was really interested in your chapter on being a people leader and a good people leader. I like to believe I am a good people leader, but I probably am not. What does it take to be a good a good manager, a good people leader, as you say? What are the tools? I mean, I know you have a bunch of questions that you ask and, you know, about how we take stock of our own career. And, you know, you'd mentioned your own bosses and, you know, talk a little more about that. How do you be a good people leader?

[5:13]Kimberly Brown: Fun fact that that was the last chapter of the book that I added, and it's just No way. I just knew I had to say something because the chapter title is Serving as a People Leader is a Privilege, Not a Rite of Passage. Because so many people, you just have to lead people magically, like when you want to grow in your career. But I think number one, I would challenge you to think that you are a good people leader because you actually care about it. Because most people wouldn't even say anything if they didn't really care that we just need to get the task done, get the job done, we don't care. But you even caring, I think the key is caring about your people, not just the execution of the task. That's the hardest part, think, especially when you're growing a team or when you have mountains of work. It's thinking about the human aspect, understanding what motivates someone to work better, what inspires them, how do they like to be communicated with, and just thinking about the small ways to make their life just a little bit easier or motivate and inspire them to do work a little bit differently. Know on my team, I'm someone who's generally a morning person. I will, if I'll wake up, I will send you an email at like 5AM because the idea came to me and it'll be perfect. I actually do all my writing really early in the morning because my brain works best at that hour, like literally rolling out of bed. So I always have to tell people like, you're an afternoon person, just ignore me. But that's how I work and understand that I'm not going to get a response because they're more of an afternoon person. Just simple things to figure out how your people work. I always give a working styles quiz for anyone who joins my team to understand what motivates them, how to like feedback, any past things that have happened that really kind of turn them off to managers, just to really understand who they are. How do they like the quizzes? They're really intrigued by the questions because they haven't been asked like, Well, what's a bad experience you've had with the manager? What's a good experience? What time of day do you want feedback? If you did something wrong, how would you like me to tell you? If you do something right, how would you like me to reward you? They've never been asked those questions before. They're like, Do you really do this? I'm like, Sometimes I can't do it all the time, but I really try. And it's good just to know what your red flags are. And then I'll also tell you mine and how I work. It just helps kind of understand the person a little bit more. Can you do it in like a Google form or should this be a conversation? I always do it in a, just a document. It could be a Google form. Now I have it in a Google form. When I worked in corporate, it was just like, I'd email the questions and have them respond and then we'd talk about it. I always want someone to write it down first and then we talk about it so that I have it later to reflect on. I never like it just to be a conversation. I didn't go searching for this yet. Is this available somewhere that I can find it so I could perhaps copy your idea and send it to the people I work with or not? It is not, but I can definitely give it to you for your show notes and for you personally. That would be great. I think that's really interesting.

[7:57]Zibby Owens: You know, like in therapy or whatever, right? You spend time, you like think about your past, your relationships. No one not a lot of I shouldn't say no one. It's not as common to be like, I need to go to therapy for this traumatic relationship I had with my boss or but those things happen. I mean, there have been I mean, very often and actually, that was a horrible generalization, and I shouldn't say that. What I mean is it's sometimes these bad things happen at work, and you can siphon them off and say, well, it was just work. But it's still your emotions, and it's still you. And, like, there's no difference between something really painful and emotional happening in a work context really than in a friendship context. Right? It doesn't get as much attention or verification.

[8:39]Kimberly Brown: I don't know what I'm saying. Do know what I'm saying? I do. I do know. It's the same exact thing. I think it's I actually have a podcast called Corporate PTSD. And people say like, Oh, well, that's like so dramatic. I'm like, Yeah, yes and no. Because you'll also see how you act. Like so for instance, I remember when in one of my last corporate jobs, I was on this like global town hall. So I mean, hundreds of people are on this call. And a very senior leader had asked me to work on a project. Now, I knew this project was going to fail. But they wanted it, they didn't really understand my area in DEI. And they want me to do the project anyways. And I was like, I really don't want to do it because I'd rather do this instead. They're like, No, no, no, I want you to do it this way. And you're to report out on this call. So I did it after giving all that pretense that it's not going to go well. And I gave the data. Actually previewed it before to tell them, Hey, it went as I told you it was going to go. It's just not working. It's not going to work in this hundreds of people. It's one of those times where I turn the camera off and I'm like, okay, I'll talk to you about it. Yep, thank you so much. And you know, the sniffing, you know someone's crying. I'm not a crier at work, but I was just so, I was so embarrassed. I was so upset. And I realized sometimes to this day, especially now running my own business, I have a little bit of a complex sometimes when I go into meetings, and I know that the outcome isn't what's necessary, even if I know I communicated it well, or just if it's not what it was intended to be for that person. I don't go in most time with as much confidence as I know I need to, even as a business owner, like I'm the CEO, there's no, no leader to come save me or talk about anything. Whenever I see someone's super long corporate long title, knowing they have a lot of power and influence, I immediately act like, okay, it is okay. They're not going to yell at you. This is your own company. You can yell back if you want to, or you can fire them as a client, whichever one you'd like, but you don't have to quote unquote sit and take it. I think in corporate or, and when I say corporate, I mean anyone in the nine to five world, I think we're conditioned to think that someone in leadership has power. So the manager has the power, you don't have the power, you can't speak up for yourself or you lose your job. And it's really difficult. It's a difficult place to be in. And then as we're talking about people leadership, I think I tell people you need to lead in the way you'd like to be led. That's the golden rule. Right? Like, don't do things to your people that you wouldn't want done to you. And just try and be a good human. There's all there's work to be done. Just be good. Just be a good human. Yeah.

[11:14]Zibby Owens: That's how I try I mean, that's how like, I'm always like, well, how would I want how would I want this to go? You know, when people are like, well, can I have the afternoon? I have to be traveling. I'm like, I don't care where you do your work. Like, it makes no difference to me. Like, you could be on a beach in Bermuda, but like, if you're getting the emails back, more power to you, you know? Know when it's time for you to take a swim. I mean, I don't think anyone I don't know. Has anyone gone to Bermuda? I don't think so. Well, I mean, I hope to foster that culture. And then there are like things that I took from jobs I had where I liked something that was being done, jobs I had that I didn't like something that was being done. And my first not my first job. It was probably my fourth job. My first job my job right before I went to business school, I worked at Unilever, and I was helping on the Unilever prestige team launching the Vera Wang fragrance. And I had a woman boss who was probably, I don't know, maybe ten years older than me. And when I got to work my first day, she had sent me flowers on my desk with a little note that said welcome So to the now I try to do that to everybody who joins because it was so nice. Like it just made me feel the rest of the whole time I was there that like they cared and hated me. So I don't know, even something small, even just a note or something.

[12:26]Kimberly Brown: That is so sweet. I'm like, I really like that one. My thing is I give people three to five people to meet with on their first day. Like I give them a whole guide, of course, like their onboarding, but I always give them three to five people, not just on the team, but across like anyone else who I work with, just so they can kind of navigate and expand. And I just connect them to really cool people in general. So my last corporate job, I would essentially connect to some of my mentors, some of my, I like to call them corporate besties, just so they got kind of socialized just a little bit more outside of the team. Because I think it's always good to have folks on your team and outside of your team who you can talk to. That's smart. Yeah. The first days are always hard, especially remote. I mean, how do you advise people to handle sort of remote integration and team building and all of that stuff? It takes more effort. I'm really interested. Maybe one day I'll write another book talking about the impact of the pandemic on introverts versus extroverts. I think that would be a really interesting study to talk about. But I think the key is to treat it like it's not remote. What would you have done in the office? And how can you replicate that at home? Because the biggest thing that people are missing is that connection, is that relationship building, the mentorship, the sponsorship, even just having really great peers and getting to know them outside of that box of the actual assignment that you have. So it's finding ways to connect. Think going to the virtual events, I know sometimes we're tired of the virtual events, go meet friends, see if you can have coffee like, Hey, do you want have a fifteen minute coffee chat? Actually go make your coffee in your Keurig and drink coffee and talk together or do lunch. I really try and think about all the little instances that you would have, even after you go to a large meeting, right? Normally you have your buddy who you debrief walking back to your cubicle or your office with. Who are you going to Slack right after and be like, Hey, you want to hop on a call, to talk about what Susan just said? And go do all those things to create that connectivity. I think it just takes a lot more effort. It has to be intentional when you're at home by yourself. It won't happen by accident that you will make work friends, make deeper connections, find mentorship and sponsorship. You have to be a bit more, intentional and aggressive with making sure you make those connections.

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[17:19]Zibby Owens: Have you found any, like, not canned is the wrong word, but organized team building things on Zoom or virtually? Do you know what mean? Like, because somebody just said like, hey, maybe we should do like an online team building thing. And I was like, yeah. But

[17:37]Kimberly Brown: I'm like, are there good ones? You know? I think it depends on your team. One of the companies who I consult with, they did a virtual happy hour and they actually shipped out little drink making kits to everyone on the team. So they actually made it on the call. So I think anything that makes people do a little something, I think people have played like bingo or like things like that. Or I have another client of mine who to help people get to know each other before every company town hall, say like a monthly meeting, they introduce like three or five colleagues, depending upon how many new starts happened. And they kind of have like a one slide of who they are, who's their family, what activities do they like to do so that the team can get to know everyone across the organization. It's a leaner team. I think they have about 125 people in their organization. So that was always nice to see that and get some more connectivity. But I think anything that gets your people excited, some people like mentorship and some companies that I work with, they want to be matched. They want to be matched with a buddy and told, You will talk the first week of every month. Other folks just want an event where they can socialize. Some companies bring everybody together in person now, maybe once or twice a year to talk. Think the important thing is to ask your people what they would actually be willing to do. Because sometimes what we think is great, they're like, No, I don't want to do that. Yeah.

[19:02]Zibby Owens: I was thinking it would have to be like somebody really interesting coming to talk to all of us. Like something really like, Oh, yeah, you're doing that just for us? I don't know. I haven't figured out what it is, but it would have to be really special. Otherwise, who wants to be on Zoom anymore, basically? Although I don't mind. I love Zoom because I get to see people like you and learn all sorts of great stuff that can, like, make my day to day even better. Love it. Tell me more about your business and how you started that. I know this is about your book too, but I feel like it's all related. No, it is. It definitely is. So how did you start this up? And like, tell me what services you offer to people and like how you've built your own business.

[19:39]Kimberly Brown: Definitely. So it's evolved over time. So I joke and say I've been playing on the internet since probably 2011. That's what my parents would say, at least until recently. The book made them realize that like, Oh, she's doing something. Like, go into a store and like, take the book. Like, Oh, okay, she's not playing anymore. But when I was working in career services, I love speaking, I love teaching, I love doing training and workshops and presenting at conferences. And as I started to present and was able to kind of cultivate my own way of coaching students, coaching alumni, and working with people to make career transitions, I frequently got asked, well, oh, can you come here? Or can you work with this person? Or can you do this? And the business slowly evolved. I actually started as a blogger back in the day, way back in the day, just blogging about things that I was going through things about when I slowly started integrating the career and leadership development content. And by that, I started in 2011. I think in 2013, that's when the name Manifest Yourself came. And then by 2017, I founded my LLC. And by that time, I was doing a lot of workshops and trainings within companies, speaking at larger scale companies, and also doing a lot more coaching on the side. Now, the business as it is still has combinations of that, but a lot more of it is centered around consulting. So going into organizations and teaching them how to recruit, retain, engage and promote their underrepresented talent, no matter what that is for the organization. And then I do have a career community where I have leadership development courses on demand that people can take. I do monthly group coaching. Amazing. But it took it took some time. And I did it. Everyone's like, Oh, well, did you like just stop working at your corporate job and launch the business? I was like, No, I've been doing it the whole time behind the scenes. I definitely probably should have resigned a little earlier because I 200% burnt myself out. I left when I had no choice because I was just so overwhelmed. Oddly enough, I think it was three weeks before the book came out. I was like, I there's no way. I looked at my calendar and I looked at my work.

[21:34]Zibby Owens: This isn't going to there's not enough hours. There's not two Kimberly's to do this work. So we need to figure something out. Wow. That's really inspiring though. Like your own success story is like another one to model on like how you find your own career.

[21:47]Kimberly Brown: Yeah, I'm like, and I never would think that my career would be helping other people find their careers. But the first time I helped someone get a job, and I knew it was a direct result of working with me, I could see the transformation, I was absolutely positively hooked. Like I was like, oh my gosh, and I saw how happy they were. They actually stayed at that job for almost eight years and got promoted throughout the ranks. We keep in touch on Instagram. It brought me so much joy. That's when I knew because I stumbled early in my career doing a bunch of other things, just like most people do. But when that happened, I was like, okay, I'm staying in the career and leadership realm.

[22:18]Zibby Owens: I love that. Wow.

[22:21]Kimberly Brown: And then how did you end up even writing a book? How did that come to pass? Oh gosh, people have been asking me. I do a lot of public speaking. So I think I average probably between like fifty and seventy speaking engagements a year, right workshops, trainings, facilitations, whatever it is. And people would assume at the end of the oh my gosh, where can I buy your book? They just assumed I had a book. And I didn't. And finally, was like, okay, like I have a process. Let me put everything into a book. And oddly enough, the title of my book is a workshop that I did in 2017 for the New Jersey Conference for Women. I didn't realize this till afterward. I thought of the name, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so incredible. It's like, Kim, you created this a long time ago. It just sounds good to you now. But it was a process. Think as you obviously know, I think writing a book was one of the hardest things I've ever done. And oddly enough, I'm planning on doing it at least one or two more times. But it's literally the process I've done with clients, corporations for years. Think it's really important that people have access to career information. I think as I'm a late millennial, my parents are baby boomers. I think if my dad were talking about career development, he'd just say, Work really hard and put your head down. And I think that's what so many people are conditioned to do. Just work really hard and put your head down. Even if you're unhappy, like just figure it out, you'll be okay. Don't necessarily even change jobs, just wait for your boss to leave or just make it work, someone will see you. And that's not really how the world of work works. And I know not everyone wants to go back to their university career services, especially if they're an alum, they may not even have access anymore. For a lot of women and people of color, when I worked in career services, they weren't necessarily using the office as much. They felt like they needed to be more prepared before coming to the office versus getting prepared at the office to go out into the world of work. And then also people may not be able to afford a career coach. But I'm like a book, a little under $20.19.95. I'm hoping that it democratizes access to career and leadership development information. This is literally exactly what I do with my clients. And they've been able to transition fields, get a new job, get promoted, negotiate. I have one client who negotiated, I think another like 50 ks on a salary offer. So there's so many different things you could do that can bring you joy.

[24:29]Zibby Owens: Wow. In my head, I keep thinking like, okay, in what capacity can I work with Kim? And I'm like, what do you offer? I'm just asking for this podcast. I love it. I love it. Have you been in touch at all or do you know about iRelaunch?

[24:45]Kimberly Brown: It's this whole conference. Were I you a part of worked with them on I was on their podcast when my book came out actually. And back when I was in higher ed, I went to their conference to recruit.

[24:56]Zibby Owens: Oh, okay. Well, then you don't need my suggestion. I do have your suggestion. I do. Really feel like, I mean, I want to say women, but I should say whoever, whatever gender. But I do feel like there's an enormous group of women with kids going off to school who have been home with their kids and are super smart and motivated but just don't know what to do next and don't know how to assess their own skills and strengths and sort of minimize the great things that they do. And there's such a huge opportunity, not just for the women, but like once all those people go back and start creating in the world, like how great. We'll have new content and new entertainment and whatever it is that they do. So I just feel like that first step or even those first 12, well, I guess not 12 steps, that's the wrong, let me not mix the wrong program. Wrong program. But you know, I think they need a path forward. And I say they, it was me. Very recently, I stayed home for eleven years and you know, like you, it just sort of like has evolved. I'm like, I'll just do a podcast a week. And I'll just, you know, next thing I know, have like, you know, no sleep and here we are.

[26:02]Kimberly Brown: Think the beautiful thing about the book that I've heard from my readers is that I thought that I was writing it for a particular audience. I was like, okay, like, I think when I did my book proposal, I think I said my audience was probably like a 24 to like 35 year old professional, generally who is a bit overemployed. So they worked really, really hard, got somewhere a little faster than they quote unquote should have air quotes. But what I've found is that it's been helping across the board. I've had students who have secured internships from reading the book or taking their first offer after graduation. I've had people who are much more senior executives who've gone back and loved the things on personal branding and relationship building. That's the beauty, I think, of Next Move, Best Move. And then a lot of people, they read it through, but then they also go back and like, it's almost like a little manual, like a textbook. Like once you kind of get the gist of how it works, you've done some of the exercises, you can go back and like, okay, I need to, I got a new job offer, and it's a year later. Let me go back and read the salary negotiation chapter or read more about like the core values. So that's, I think, the piece I'm most proud of is that it's helped across the board. And I definitely have moms. I have a lot of moms who are relaunching their careers or reentering the workforce, or especially with COVID, they say women have been the most impacted, taking care of families, children. So they've been going through the book as well. It's like, well, how can I transition to a company that

[27:28]Zibby Owens: gives me more work life balance too, especially with people who are returning to the office? Some people don't want to go. Well, we know a lot of people don't want to go. And they need to kind of brush off their skill sets. They can get something that's much more aligned with where they are today. I should have given your book. My son just turned 15 and is doing an internship. And literally this morning, he's like, you know, yesterday was just, like, really boring. And I'm like, yeah. You know, you're an intern. Do know mean? Like so then I I started telling you about when I was an intern. I'm like, this is what happens. You know? I you know? But they see it all in a context and know where it's So anyway, I guess I will give it to him now.

[28:05]Kimberly Brown: I don't know if he'll We know what he thinks. Yeah.

[28:07]Zibby Owens: Hard to get I can't get him to even read my book. I'm like, do you want me to read it out loud to you? I feel like you I can hear some of this know. Yeah. Oh, well, kids. You know? Anyway. Okay. So wait. The next two books you want to write, what are they? You mentioned already The Pandemic and Introvert, Extrovert. What are you, an introvert or extrovert?

[28:24]Kimberly Brown: So I'm really an introvert. People are shocked because I do so much public speaking. But if you ever see me after I speak, it takes so much energy from me, I can barely form a sentence. I need to be alone in a dark room. Don't talk to me. Like, just give me kettle cord popcorn and some Cheez Its. Let me sit in the corner and watch more Grey's Anatomy. That's all I want after I have big speaking engagements. I'm definitely an introvert. Ali, that's not the book I'm going I'm thinking about writing. I have two ideas that are that I'm thinking of right now. And one is that leadership. I want to go more deeply into leadership development, and really thinking about how we can work with each other. So not just managers, how can you manage better, but also how can you manage like up, down and across, and think about the different archetypes of different leaders and what that looks like. I'm a big believer that everyone is a leader in the workplace, because you are there to lead your body of work, whether you're an assistant, a chief so and so, a director, manager, whatever it is. And then I'm also thinking about something a little bit more personal. Think a lot of people have been asking me to write more about myself about and how that correlates to how I built my career, how I've transitioned through different things. But I'm a little nervous to write something personal. I don't know if I'm there yet to tell my own business. Well, I did start a publishing company called Zippy Books, and we publish we publish memoirs. So I'm just saying. I I don't think I'm ready for, like, a memoir. I think more of a a lot into, like, a, I don't know, a life lessons type of book from where I am now. I feel like memoir sounds I don't feel like I'm old enough for a memoir yet. Memoir gets such a I think we need to rebrand the word memoir.

[29:56]Zibby Owens: You know, it's really just people's stories. It's just a it's like a long personal essay.

[30:01]Kimberly Brown: Yeah. It just seems so heavy to me. I feel like I feel the weight of it when you say memoir. I'm like, I don't want that. I'm not ready. No.

[30:09]Zibby Owens: It's just like your story. It's just people's stories. That's all it is. You can tell your story no matter what age you are. Depends what happened. Right? Very true. I mean, I like reading stories of people of all ages. It's not like a in the olden days, a retrospective of like, here I am at age 80, and I'm going to tell you about my entire life. Know? Yes. Yes. Very true. It's more like, you know. Period. Yes. Got it. Yeah. Anyway, whatever. But okay, you're not ready anyway. Well, you are, you know, you have my email. Advice do you have to aspiring authors? Oh, gosh.

[30:44]Kimberly Brown: What advice do I have for aspiring authors? I think for me, hardest part of the writing process was really telling a story and connecting it to myself and to the reader at the same time. So I think if you're an aspiring author, and you're writing, I would really think about how you can share from a place of empowerment, how you can really share to connect. I think that was hard for me. I think as a blogger, I'm used to writing like 500 to 900 words, maybe. So it's short, quick and easy. When you're coaching, it's very solution focused. So I always get to the point. I'm not used to having the breadth to explain and share and all those things. But the connection, the stories are what people remember. Even if like my book is technically like it's more technical esque. But the stories are what people continuously come back to me about. And that's how they remember the concepts.

[31:38]Zibby Owens: Love it. Well, this has been so fascinating for me. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed And yeah, stay in touch. Yes, indeed. Have a good one. And send me the questions. I will. I will talk. Okay. All right. Thanks a lot. Bye. Bye.

[32:14]Zibby Owens: and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.