Delia Owens, WHERE THE CRAWDADS SING

[1:24]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, the creator and host of the award winning podcast that you're listening to right now, thank you so much, called Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. It is a daily podcast three hundred and sixty five days a year, and each day we talk to an author about all the things related to their career, their book, their life, and more in thirty minutes or less because who has time? I am now an author myself, although I wasn't when I started this podcast, and you can get my new memoir, A Memoir of Love, Loss, and Literature wherever books are sold starting July 1, and my children's book, Princess Charming. You can learn more about me at zibbyowens.com. But, really, you're here to learn more about the authors, and that is what we're going to do. Also, be sure to check out all the other podcasts in the ZCast Podcast Network. You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com, and definitely check out those shows as well. Today, in honor of the release of the long awaited Where the Crawdads Sing movie, I am releasing again Delia Owens' episode with me from years ago. Delia Owens is the co author of three internationally bestselling non fiction books about her life as a wildlife scientist in Africa, including Cry of the Kalahari. She has won the John Burroughs Award for Nature Writing and has been published in Nature, the African Journal of Ecology and many others. She currently lives in North Carolina, where The Crawdads Sing is her first novel and has been on the bestseller list for basically years and years. Enjoy a rerelease of this episode in case you missed it the first time. This is before it became as big a sensation as it is now, and I am thrilled to be re releasing it. I cannot wait to see the movie. I am so excited. Hi. This is Delia Owens. I loved coming on Zippy's podcast,

[3:17]Delia Owens: Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thanks for reading Where the Crawdads Sing. I hope you enjoy the movie. Hi, Delia. How are you?

[3:26]Zibby Owens: I'm fine. How are you? Good. Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Oh, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I can't believe your book has been on the New York Times bestseller list for like eleven weeks now. Is that right? That's crazy. Twelve weeks. Twelve weeks. Oh my gosh.

[3:42]Delia Owens: Congratulations. Thank you. It's very exciting. Sorry. To ask you. I have to ask you something. Okay. I'm I'm new to Instagram, but is this the same people I talked to been communicating on Instagrams or not? Yes, yes, it's me. Okay, okay. I've been seeing your

[4:02]Zibby Owens: moms don't have time to read books, so thank you for all of that. Of course, yeah, no, I've been reading your book and I like to snap pictures while I read. Yeah, that's me on Instagram, Zibby Owens, and momsdon'thavetimetoreadbooks. So thanks for writing back, that always gives me such a thrill.

[4:17]Delia Owens: Oh, thank you, and thank you for having me on the podcast. This is fun. Sure.

[4:22]Zibby Owens: So you are this amazingly accomplished animal and wildlife researcher. You're like a modern day Jane Goodall. You spent twenty three years living in Africa, is that right, observing and writing about all sorts of animals? That's true. Yes. I spent twenty three years, yes. And now you've just tried your hand at fiction and look what happened. It's this amazingly incredible, beautiful novel. So how did you do it? Like how did you decide to write a novel and literally how did you do it? Did you take a class? Did you read about it? Or did you just try? I read books. I read novels. I didn't find the transition hard at all.

[4:59]Delia Owens: The non fiction books that I co authored, they were written in story fashion in a way. They had a beginning, middle, and end. Writing, I describe it this way. I like to ride horses a lot and I live in Northern Idaho and I can take my horse and just ride anywhere. And writing non fiction, the other books, are sort of like riding a horse inside of a corral. There's a big fence. There's a timeline. The timeline has to be accurate. The characters have to be real. You might want to change this or that but you can't because it's non fiction. But when you write fiction it's like taking your horse and just clicking him and going as fast as you want across the meadow, up the mountains. There was a freedom to writing fiction. My imagination just went a little bit crazy and I found it a lot of fun. I found it inspirational.

[5:53]Zibby Owens: And how did you come up with this story?

[5:57]Delia Owens: Well that was also from my experiences in Africa. I lived a very isolated life and so I was very curious about how isolation affects a person. I wanted to write a novel about that. But also as I was observing the lions, I'd go out every afternoon, late in the afternoon, and follow the lions through the night and began to realize that the animals I studied, the pride of lions, the herd of elephants, the pack of hyenas, those tightly bonded groups are not made up of both sexes. They're made up only of females. The males come and go for breeding and mating purposes but the females are the ones that form these tightly bonded groups that last for all of their lives. And I had had close girlfriends when I was at home and suddenly I didn't have a group. And I realized the importance of having a group. And I wanted to write a story that would tell and show and make people feel what it's like

[7:03]Zibby Owens: when you don't have a group and how it affects your behavior. Hey, you wrote this great line. You had Maple tell Kaya in the book, You need some girlfriends, hon, because they're forever without a vow. A clutch of women is the most tender, most tough place on earth. That's

[7:19]Delia Owens: true. It's true. Girlfriends are so essential. They are and you know we have a very strong genetic propensity. It's not just that we like to be with girls. It's all of our ancestors, all primates live in this type of society with a group of females, the troop of baboons. And so we have the genetic propensity for that. It's not just something we thought up on our own. It's very strongly written in our genes and we feel it deeply when we're isolated from that type of group. And what amazed me was when I came back from Africa after living in remote settings, I'd come back and visit my friends in the cities and find out that some of them in today's world felt just as isolated as I did. They might live in city with a million people, but they didn't have that strong group anymore, the kind that I had when I was growing up. So I think a lot of people experience loneliness and abandonment and rejection. And so I felt that that was a story that a lot of people might be interested in reading is how to deal with this. Absolutely. I guess you're right, I'm

[8:31]Zibby Owens: feeling now like I should be making more time for girls dinners than I have been. I feel like as a mom, one of the first things I cut out is like, well, I don't have time to see my girlfriends. I'll, you know, I'll do that another time. I have to be with my kids or this or that or working or something. I feel like you've just given me an excuse to do what I want with my friends.

[8:52]Delia Owens: Well it's not just fun, it's very important. It's very important for the companionship. Our ancestors survived because they had a group. Single mom in the wilderness of Africa doesn't last as long as a group. So the best of all cases is to be with your girlfriends and the children all together. Mean that's what's normal. Right, that makes sense.

[9:18]Zibby Owens: This, bring the kids. So you had this revelation, you know, connecting women's friendships in the wild, and you wanted to talk about that in a novel, and yet you came up with this amazing storyline with different characters and drama and courthouse scenes. How did you get from step one to step two? Like how did you make that happen? I was determined to write something that would be very readable and exciting.

[9:47]Delia Owens: I'm terrified of boring the reader. I don't want the reader to be bored. So I knew there had to be a lot of things happening. And I actually came up with the ending. I don't remember where I was or how but I came up with that ending and I thought, wow, I have to write a book that fits the ending. Interesting. So I didn't start there literally and write backwards, but I knew how I wanted it to end and then I started in the beginning and began braiding a story with the different characters together that could lead to that ending. And I wanted to have a mystery that would have clues. The clues are hidden in all sorts of strange places within the story. And I wanted to bring that part into it, a mystery that someone could solve. The clues are there. If you go back and read it, I've had readers go back and read the second time and they say, I can't believe how you just told us everything. The clues are there, but they're hidden and you don't see them sometimes until the end.

[10:49]Zibby Owens: Yeah, I was tempted to reread it. I was literally sitting there next to my husband and I kept grabbing him. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is what's happening. Oh my gosh, you'll never believe the outcome. I couldn't believe it. Promise if you go back and read it again, you will find that the clues are there. And the way you write is so vivid and expressive. It's truly unique, the the way the analogies even that you use. This one time you wrote when you were talking about Kaya venturing into town to go grocery shopping, say, mostly the village seemed tired of arguing with the elements and simply sagged. And that was after all the other ways you described the village. And I thought that simple sentence was so perfect. Right? It just like captured everything you wanted to say about that town. The reader instantly knows what you're talking about, and you can see it in your head. Have you always been able to just write so lyrically? Is it something that comes naturally to you or something you've had to practice?

[11:42]Delia Owens: Well, I tried to write non fiction that way as well and I think I did to a certain extent. It's more limited when you write non fiction but I love that type of writing. You have to be careful because I don't think as a reader I don't like to read too much description. It's like putting too much sugar in your coffee or your tea. There's a fine line. I just don't like a book that has too much description. It's getting the right words, not a lot of words, but the right words. And so I worked on that and it took me years to write this book because I didn't just sit down and write it in one go. I worked on it on and off. And over the years I found myself improving, I think, getting better at writing description. I love that part of it. How long did it take to write? Well, I'm embarrassed to say this. No, don't be embarrassed. Well, I worked on it for ten years, but I had another job. I was back from Africa but I still have a project going on in Africa. I'm just doing fundraising and doing conservation work here in The United States. So I had a day job and again living in the wilderness but it was a job. And so I would get up 04:30 every morning to write on this book and then I would get discouraged after a year or so and I'd put it away. Sometimes I put it away for a couple of years. So it's not like I was working on it for ten years, but over a period of ten years I worked on it. And I actually think putting it away and letting it rest so to speak helped because when I go back to it I think was a better judge of what was actually working and what wasn't working. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

[13:30]Zibby Owens: Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quint's has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[16:17]Zibby Owens: And then if you finished writing your book budget and sent it out. And tell me what happened next. Oh, well oh, gosh.

[16:24]Delia Owens: Really?

[16:25]Zibby Owens: Yeah. I wanna know. Do you mind? If you mind, I can I'm curious.

[16:30]Delia Owens: Well, I co authored three non fiction books, I thought, well, I'll just send it to those people. Well, it's taken me so long to get this written that honestly, of those people were retired and moved on. And so I felt myself in that cold world of not having an agent or a publisher. So I sent it out to some of the agents that I'd had. I sent it out to the agent that I'd had for my very first book, a wonderful man named Peter Matson. And he said, I love this story. He said, I'm not gonna be the one to represent this to publishers because I'm almost retired but I'd love to help you edit it. And he took many, many months to help edit it for me and he said, okay, now it's ready to send it out. And I just that was beautiful for him to come back and help me knowing he was not going to be involved with the publication of it. And so from then like everybody else, I got the writer's market off the shelf and started sending cold calls to other agents. Within a few days, I got a great agent, Russell Galen, and he came back and he said, Okay, this is it. We're going. And he sent it out. I got five publishers who wanted to publish it. And so from then it was just wonderful. It happened pretty fast. But it had been very slow up to that point.

[18:02]Zibby Owens: And then next thing you know, it's come out and Reese Witherspoon picks it as her book club pick. Right. How did you respond to that? Do you know who Reese Witherspoon was? Like, you watch TV?

[18:13]Delia Owens: I knew who she was as an actress. I do not watch TV. I haven't seen that TV program that apparently is doing great. It's a great show. But I knew her as an actress and I didn't even really know she had a book club. But then once my book came out I started paying attention to things like that so I did know that she had it. And my editor called me one day and I have to say that my editor, Putnam has just been the greatest publishing house to work with. Just have such a great relationship with them and my editor called to say that Reese had chosen my book for the September

[18:47]Zibby Owens: book of the month. Did you get out the champagne?

[18:50]Delia Owens: Yes, I did. And the next week I was on the bestseller list.

[18:56]Zibby Owens: Wow,

[18:57]Delia Owens: that's amazing. It meant so much to me. I just feel so grateful. Obviously I'm excited and happy about how well the book is being received, I also just feel so grateful for so many people have helped to make this happen.

[19:13]Zibby Owens: You don't do it by yourself. And I feel like being an author today, you have to do a fair amount of sort of self promotion, right? Like you have to be willing to hit the road and go and do the tours and post on, be on social media and all that. Are you comfortable with all of that?

[19:29]Delia Owens: Oh my gosh. I thought that I just refused at first to go on social media. I'd never been on social media. I had no idea how to do it. And they kept encouraging me. I won't say they forced me. And so I tried it and I can understand why people like it because you have this instant connection with people who read the book and I don't have time to do a lot of it. I still don't understand most of it. I know that probably half the things I put on there end up somewhere else. I don't know. But it's been very fun to connect with people who are reading the book, and that

[20:04]Zibby Owens: part I've enjoyed. I have to say, and I know we spoke briefly about this at the start, but when I like to have the ability to say that you're reading someone's book and have that actual author write you and be like, Hey, you're so glad you're reading my book. For me as a reader, like, that is just the coolest thing. Every time that happens with any author, it just I get such a thrill. I just I'm sure other readers feel the same way, and it's nice to hear how it is from the author side as well. I get the same feeling. It's a thrill, and I love sometimes when you'll see a discussion going on between two readers about

[20:37]Delia Owens: what they thought was ending or what. And you come in and say, and you could come in and put your toothpaste in. That's amazing. And no one can argue with you. You

[20:48]Zibby Owens: also you incorporated a lot of poetry. Are you a big fan of poetry? I some of the poems let me just read one or two. If you wrote this Galloway Cannell poem from Ma's book that Kaya finds, and it says, I have to say, I'm relieved it's over. At the end, I could only feel pity for that urge toward more life. Goodbye. And then you have the Amanda Hamilton many, many poems, but the one that she first reads, Trapped inside, love is a caged beast eating its own flesh. Love must be free to wander, to land upon its chosen shore and breathe. So tell me about your relationship to poetry. Are you a big fan? Do you like to write poetry yourself? I do. I've

[21:24]Delia Owens: written poetry all my life. I'm not saying I'm good at it at all, but I find that words just come to my mind a lot and I feel a lot when I write poetry. I feel that the words themselves can be so inspiring to readers. Most people who love good prose and literature, even if they don't have time or the inclination to read poetry, I think when they do read a verse, they feel a lot. That was the number one thing I wanted about this book is I wanted people to feel. And I think poetry makes you feel. And you can say, you can get your thoughts into a few words and you can do it in a way that it's like putting a drug straight into your bloodstream. You have to read a whole novel sometimes to feel

[22:19]Zibby Owens: certain things and get the point, but a poem can say so much in a few words and I think that's the reason it's so powerful. This is great. You speak the way you write. You speak just as now beautifully with so many you have so many analogies and ways for me to conjure up like visually what you're saying. It's perfect. It's great. Thank you. I don't feel that way, but No, it's true. You do the same with your website too. I was like I felt like I didn't want to stop reading your website whereas usually it's just, you know, very functional copy. Yours was you even gave away like the first two chapters or parts of them on your website which I thought was really unusual but really great. Well, thank you. Yeah, I was new at all that. I'm learning. So you've had this amazing success. I'm sure you're just like riding the wave for a while. Do you have ambitions to write another book? Do you feel like you finally checked this off your list? How do you feel about

[23:13]Delia Owens: writing books at this point? Oh, definitely I've started another one. I have an idea for another one. I want continue Where the Crawdad Sing is a sociobiological drama. It's a drama, a story, a thriller, a murder mystery, a love story but also it asks some very serious questions about why humans behave the way we do. That is the central theme. And I want to continue with that theme. I want to write another book that's also a drama and a love story and I don't know if there'll be some sort of mystery, some sort of compelling story but with some serious questions. And I have to say that I'm a little bit disappointed that right now there's so much going on with this book which I'm thrilled about but it's a little bit hard to sit down and get into the zone of writing which I'm lucky I can find that zone and get into that zone but it's a little bit difficult right now. But I'm trying not to be too hard on myself. I should give myself some time to enjoy this book,

[24:22]Zibby Owens: but I am working on the second one. Oh, that's exciting. I think you definitely owe yourself a little time to kick back and soak it up.

[24:31]Delia Owens: Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

[24:35]Zibby Owens: So for aspiring writers out there, and I know we talked a little about your transition to fiction, but what advice would you give? What if there's someone out there who also has just an ending in mind the way you did? What would you say to those people? What advice about the whole road to publication and writing and everything? The most important thing is that you have to believe.

[24:54]Delia Owens: Everyone will tell you how difficult it is and it is difficult. The writing is difficult, the whole process is difficult and getting someone to read it. Never mind finding an agent, it's getting an agent to read it because there's so many manuscripts that fall on their desk every day. So you have to believe in it and you have to really work at it. Know, get up 04:30 every morning and work on it and it just takes a huge amount of work. But you can't let that stress interfere with your creative. It's being creative that visually connects with another person. Words don't necessarily connect. It's the creative word, the words that speak to someone. And it's real important to try to get to that place within your own heart that you feel like that you have this that you want to say and you want somebody to listen. And when you start feeling that when I wrote it was almost like I had the reader sitting in the chair next to me and I was always saying, okay, I do not want to bore the reader. I don't want to confuse the reader. I'm very, very conscious of the reader when I write. And I think that's sort of a cue for people to keep in mind. Don't forget the reader. Absolutely. That's my advice. That's good advice.

[26:17]Zibby Owens: So are you involvedI'm sure this is going to be Gazelka: a movie. Is therewhat can you say about that? Doctor. Nothing. Doctor. Halena Okay.

[26:30]Zibby Owens: thought I'd try. I just thought you never know. You never know. Well, it was so nice chatting with you. I loved your book and it was so just transported into the whole marshland and all the characters. And I feel like it gave me this whole other experience as I'm living here in the middle of Manhattan and New York City and just to be able to escape just by opening a book into

[26:57]Delia Owens: world that you painted for me was a real treat. So thank you for that. Well, thank you, Sue. It's been so nice to meet you on Instagram. I never thought I'd say that to anybody, but it's been so fun. And it's so nice to talk to you now. I really appreciate your support

[27:15]Zibby Owens: enthusiasm. I really appreciate your time. Thanks so much. Okay. Bye bye. Take care. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.