Tiffanie Drayton, BLACK AMERICAN REFUGEE: Escaping the Narcissism of the American Dream
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[0:58]Tiffany Drapin is the author of black American refugee escaping the narcissism of the
[1:03]American dream
[1:04]Tiffany is a mother world traveler and journalist whose work has been featured in the New York Times
[1:09]Box Marie Claire Playboy salon complex Yahoo among other outlets
[1:13]She has published two nonfiction young adult books called developing political leadership skills and coping with gun violence
[1:20]She grew up in the United States and currently lives with her family in Tobago
[1:24]Although actually when we talked she was not living in Tobago, but you'll have to listen to understand what's going on
[1:30]Welcome to Tiffany. Thank you so much for coming on mumps
[1:32]Don't have time to read books to discuss your absolutely beautiful memoir black American refugee escaping the narcissism of the American dream
[1:41]Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be able to talk to you about it
[1:45]This is such a unique memoir because not only do you tell your own story and your own escape from a narcissistic relationship
[1:52]And thank you for all the information about what that is like that particular brand of abuse for the many people
[1:57]I'm sure reading it who need to know what that is but also how you apply it to American history and culture and all I mean
[2:04]It's so interesting the way you interwoven those narratives at to make America
[2:10]Actually the narcissistic abuser as well really like a brilliant way to do that anyway
[2:16]I thought it was beautiful and you're a great writer and I am so glad that our paths intersected especially through
[2:23]Shapiro well back, so um anyway, why don't you tell that was a lot? But why don't you tell tell listeners?
[2:29]I guess a little bit more about the book in general and when you decided to make this a book
[2:34]Yeah, you know you say that was a lot, but it's it's like the story is so layered that it's a lot
[2:41]That was like a perfect description right around the time of the murder of George Floyd
[2:45]I sold an essay to the New York Times
[2:47]They've pretty much told the story of me deciding to leave America to kind of get away from all of the racism and and the turmoil
[2:55]and
[2:56]when that as a
[2:58]Susan Shapiro
[2:59]Who always tells me what to do and actually is like make sure you say writing a book
[3:02]Make sure you say writing a book and I'm like, but I I'm not writing a book
[3:05]She's like yes, you are
[3:07]So I put I put that I was writing a book and as a result
[3:10]I got an agent and I worked on the proposal immediately and within maybe like a month we sold the book
[3:16]Oh my gosh. So what happened after your article came up?
[3:20]Yeah, so as soon as the article came out
[3:23]I got an agent right away and I and I sold the book
[3:26]So it was probably the month maybe like a month
[3:29]Between the article coming out and the book being sold and really that was like
[3:34]A testament of two things a how much I had learned about writing proposals and stuff as a gold strider
[3:38]And b having great mentorship from Susan Shapiro, you know
[3:41]She she she was like listen get on it now
[3:44]And you know, I would have never thought to
[3:46]Like work so fast, but she was absolutely right. So that was really great
[3:50]Wow
[3:51]Well, you start with growing up and growing up in America as a black girl
[3:56]Your mom who was trying to elevate herself
[4:00]in the world with her different jobs and working so so hard and having all these setbacks
[4:05]And yeah
[4:06]And but I have to say by the time we got to the end where she was safely
[4:11]With you guys in Trinidad, De Bego and like
[4:16]I it brought tears to my eyes with her calling her friends
[4:20]Oh my gosh, that your mom is but your mom is amazing. Basically. I'll do you all know but anyway
[4:25]You go through like the financial crisis and what happened when you moved to Florida and having to move back to New Jersey and
[4:33]Your tiny bit of an okay kind of grace period
[4:36]Tell me a little bit about those years and
[4:39]Even what it was like having to think back and write about them
[4:42]And maybe analyze them now with the framework that you have as a, you know
[4:46]Super smart adult who can make sense of some of the issues that happened in the past
[4:52]Yeah, absolutely. You know when I
[4:54]Decided to incorporate the idea of narcissistic abuse into the book
[4:57]I didn't really know how it would interplay with my life story
[5:01]And so I was like, you know what let me just get something on the page
[5:04]Let me just write the story. Um, let me pick the most poignant moments of my life and just kind of write it out
[5:08]And see what happens and after I did that
[5:11]I gave my draft to my sister and my sister was like, you know, I think you can just put like
[5:17]each
[5:17]part of the cycle of narcissistic abuse as the chapter of
[5:22]The book. I mean, I mean, I mean as a name chapter
[5:25]And that's when it really occurred to me. I was like wait a minute
[5:28]This is the thesis actually stands because it works just by applying like these labels all of a sudden
[5:33]It's like I saw how that cycle had been playing out over the course of my life
[5:38]Whether it's first arriving to the country and having all of these narratives
[5:41]You know, be told to you where it's like America's the land of the free you just have to work hard
[5:44]And you know, you get told about you know that the
[5:47]The things giving between the the pilgrims and and and the Native Americans and how lovely it was
[5:53]But in reality it was like, you know, mad genocide, you know, so it's like you always
[5:58]Kind of go through this this cycle and you don't even know it
[6:01]Notice it and it's only really when
[6:03]I apply these labels to the different parts of my life
[6:06]Sorry that I was able to see so clearly
[6:09]How the cycle of abuse was indeed playing out over the course of my life and my relationship with America
[6:15]Wow, so the high level how is America a narcissistic abuser?
[6:21]Yeah, you know narcissistic abuse really has
[6:25]Element that are unlike other types of abuse or especially in the beginning
[6:29]Everything is about love bombing and you know, you sell this, you know
[6:32]Perfect narrative where you're made for each other and where you know
[6:36]It's like God sent
[6:37]Everything is, you know, God sent and it really reminded me of like manifest destiny and how God was used as like a
[6:44]Reason for for the expansion of America westward and you know, and then it
[6:48]Eventually the cycle moves you into being devalued and you know as a little black girl
[6:55]I encountered that whether it be through imagery of black people in the media
[6:59]Whether it be how you know in the 80s and the 90s
[7:02]There was always like some ridiculous court case like the central park five or black people being referred to as like welfare queens
[7:09]All types of ways that black blur devalued and then eventually the discard phase
[7:14]Which is when you're just kind of thrown to the side and it's like all this person isn't important anymore
[7:18]this person doesn't mean anything anymore and
[7:21]You know
[7:22]The easiest way for people to understand that are systems like mass incarceration or even for myself being displaced by really really terrible
[7:30]Policy like what happened during the
[7:32]crisis when in Florida my family was forced to move as a result of you know being
[7:37]Price out of neighborhoods and and rezoned and the financial crisis impacting Florida is in the way that it did
[7:43]So, you know that cycle kind of perpetuates
[7:47]both in your individualized and as you analyze the history of the United States of America and its relationship with
[7:53]Black people you kind of see a play out in that larger relationship to
[7:58]Wow, it's so interesting. You also have as one of the parts of the abuse cycle what happens when you try to leave
[8:06]right and how that just enrage us because essentially it's
[8:11]the narcissist
[8:13]Has had some injury to done to their self that they their self perception that they just can't
[8:20]They can't like live with and so they self aggrandize and
[8:24]Right and then when when you try to really shake that they cannot tolerate it
[8:30]and it's sad because
[8:32]Though the book ends where it ends the part that I'm living out now and it's insane
[8:39]You know now I'm stuck in America. I'm a stuck parent because my
[8:45]Ex enlisted the court system to start this whole custody fight over my kids
[8:49]And um, he pretty much went to court and said that I kidnapped my kids and so as a result
[8:53]I have been stuck here since November. I have not seen my kids
[8:58]What is yes, yes, yes, and I have been exposed to the failure of the court system
[9:05]And not only that, but I now it has really reinforced my my my thesis because it's like
[9:11]How can someone go to court and sell blatant lies and continue to terrorize a human being and you know
[9:18]A lot of people will tell me they're like when you think about how America views the rest of the world
[9:23]It's like why should these American kids live in some island, you know
[9:27]It's not safe, you know and I I've heard so many of these narratives play out over the course of this case
[9:32]That I've been dealing with and even like like financial abuse when you start to analyze the family court system
[9:37]And you look at like how a person that is technically a poor person, you know
[9:40]My myself even my ex we are still not rich people
[9:43]We're still just struggling to get by and yet you have to throw out tens of thousands of dollars to fight in a legal system for your children
[9:51]And it's like
[9:53]One of the scariest
[9:54]Continuations of a pattern of abuse that even I could have never ever ever anticipated on this
[10:00]Wait.
[10:01]So the book, I mean, can we even talk about how the book end that is not like a nail
[10:05]bite or essentially because I feel like your theory is like up and say in the, you know,
[10:09]you say even in your bio or whatever that you end up leaving America, which I think is
[10:14]so interesting too because you did it like you not only left your relationship.
[10:19]You left America.
[10:20]You left all the patterns.
[10:22]You left all the places that were that were getting you down and like I just felt like
[10:27]you were so victorious at the end, like you did it.
[10:30]And now to hear this is like so crushing, I literally can't believe it.
[10:34]So he said you were, can I, can I ask him more about it?
[10:36]He said you were kidnapping them and then you were forced to come back with the kids.
[10:41]Yes.
[10:42]And then he took the kids away, they, yeah, because the borders have turned out
[10:45]were closed for a while.
[10:47]And so I couldn't travel.
[10:49]And so now it's been two, three years that we have been locked into this custody to dispute.
[10:54]And of course, because they ordered the kids to return.
[10:56]I wasn't living here.
[10:57]I didn't have an address.
[10:58]So they gave him custody of the kids.
[11:00]And since then I have not been able to see them.
[11:02]He has just withheld them and they do nothing about it.
[11:05]And I just don't see my kids.
[11:06]Oh Tiffany, that is the most tragic thing ever.
[11:11]How are you dealing with that?
[11:13]It's horrible.
[11:14]I mean, what is there, is there anything you have a lawyer, you have a good lawyer?
[11:18]I mean, it's just, it's lawyer after lawyer.
[11:21]Oh my gosh, constant.
[11:24]I am so sorry.
[11:26]No, it's terrible.
[11:27]I can't even believe he got away with that.
[11:29]Wait, first of all, who, first of all, they're saying there has to be a trial.
[11:33]But he does everything.
[11:34]He never follows any court orders to date.
[11:37]He doesn't follow court orders.
[11:38]And they just postpone the date of everything every time.
[11:41]They don't enforce any of his court orders ever.
[11:44]So like, you know how you have to hire like a custody evaluator and pay like a retainer.
[11:48]Yeah, yeah.
[11:49]It hasn't done that.
[11:50]And they've done nothing about it.
[11:51]It's been, it's been since November and they've done nothing about it.
[11:54]There was a hearing schedule for like, I think it was yesterday.
[11:58]And so I asked, so what happened in the hearing?
[12:00]Now I'm not even able to like, attend them.
[12:02]So I just have to ask a lawyer, what happened?
[12:04]And the lawyer's like, oh, it's been postponed.
[12:06]So it's like constant postponing, postponing, postponing, postponing, postponing, postponing.
[12:11]Do you get to talk to them?
[12:13]The kids?
[12:14]Yeah, there's like a court order that I get to talk to them like every other day for like,
[12:18]you know, how much every time.
[12:20]And most of the time he doesn't even follow that court order.
[12:22]Oh my God.
[12:23]This is so awful.
[12:24]Yeah.
[12:25]I'm so sorry.
[12:26]I'm so.
[12:27]You get dragged back in the fight and back to the argument about narcissistic abuse.
[12:31]You know, once you try to leave the abuser, they get more angry.
[12:34]They throw so many resources behind making your life a living hell.
[12:37]And the only thing that has made this bearable is the fact that as a result of me writing
[12:43]this book, I just like gained a ton of like, like this support group that a man, we
[12:50]know, like a lot of women that are just like, you know, I've been through this.
[12:52]I've seen this.
[12:53]I've been connected with a lot of women who are fighting for, you know, women's rights
[12:57]and the family court system and protecting children from abuse, et cetera.
[13:00]So it's like now I'm locked in this new fight that I would have never even like when
[13:04]I finished that book, I thought it was done.
[13:08]But I knew it wasn't done because like narcissistic abuse, it just doesn't end that way.
[13:12]It doesn't end easily.
[13:14]It's always like, you have to completely fight to get out of the situation.
[13:20]And, you know, and a lot of the women that I talked to who have been in really high conflict
[13:26]custody disputes, it's typically with like, on narcissistic type personality.
[13:30]And they all tell me the same thing, you know, they've all endured years of litigation.
[13:34]And it's on ending never ending, but it's like, now we have to like fight for reform.
[13:38]And it's unbelievable to me, honestly, the types of things I've been exposed to, it's
[13:42]unbelievable.
[13:43]I could never imagine this level of failure.
[13:48]So like, what can we do?
[13:49]Like, what can we do as a society?
[13:52]Like, what can we all do?
[13:53]Like, I was just at this panel last night about there was a whole documentary about, you
[13:58]know, women and the failure to provide the supports, even just to have a regular working
[14:02]life as a mom and a woman and how the government has sort of failed us in that way, that
[14:07]without childcare and how it's just everything is just stacked against us.
[14:11]And this is just yet another failure.
[14:14]I'm feeling like very down about it, honestly, it's like, where is the hope?
[14:18]How do we, how do we make, how do we affect change?
[14:21]I feel like the hope is in just like I said before, like this community of women I've
[14:27]now been exposed to both A, writers and B, like advocates like this year alone, Angelina
[14:33]Jolie went and spoke, I believe it was at the UN at one point about passing something
[14:38]called Caden's Law and pushing the past by a while, which is the violence against women
[14:43]act.
[14:44]Caden's Law, it's pretty much to protect women, I mean, to protect children from having
[14:48]to be with their abusers and it's like watching Angelina give that speech.
[14:53]It was like one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever seen, but it's like simultaneously,
[14:58]it's fantastic to see women fighting and be changed as slow and as difficult as it is.
[15:05]It's like, we are mobilizing, we are really supporting each other and that's like the
[15:10]glimmer of hope.
[15:11]The glimmer of hope is that we are really, really connecting with each other and offering
[15:17]the support that I think, you know, five, 10 years ago, five, 10 years ago, nobody
[15:20]was even talking about family for talking about how disabled it is or being honest about
[15:24]how hard it is to be a mom even, you know, like my mom's generation, like nobody was
[15:28]talking about how hard it is to be a mom, how hard it is to survive this thing.
[15:32]We are now and so there's this level of transparency vulnerability and also like we have
[15:37]resources and we are our own advocates and so that's the hope, that's the hope, it's not in
[15:44]the system.
[15:45]There's no hope in the system.
[15:46]I hope that's not true.
[15:48]I really do.
[15:49]I hope that I hope that would be, that would be too depressing, it would just be
[15:55]fans, not as it stands.
[15:57]We have to literally force it to become something that empowers us and protects us.
[16:02]We have to force that because it has never been that, you know, it was just the other
[16:07]day I was doing a panel for women and they were talking about the fact that women's rights
[16:10]have never been codified in the Constitution and that's something that they've been pushing
[16:15]for.
[16:16]I think it's called era.
[16:17]They've been pushing for women's rights to be actually codified in the Constitution because
[16:21]the Constitution only refers to men.
[16:23]Why?
[16:25]I would say at the very least, it should just refer to humans, you know, but when I refer
[16:29]to men, well, you definitely need to refer to women and it's like this is like such a major
[16:33]step to get women properly protected and to have them have rights under the Constitution.
[16:41]And so we're doing all of these fights that, you know, for my generation, I would have
[16:45]never ever imagined we would be at this point with Roe v. Wade, we would be at this point.
[16:51]I would never imagine it, but nonetheless, here we are.
[16:54]And the upside once again is like, we have the education.
[16:58]We are committed to each other.
[16:59]We are supportive in ways we've never been.
[17:01]We're more honest and that's the only safe and grace us, the women.
[17:07]Wow.
[17:08]On the other hand, that's really powerful.
[17:09]Yes.
[17:10]Because it's not just the women.
[17:11]I mean, look at us.
[17:12]There's so many of us.
[17:13]Well, I shouldn't write, you know, when it came time for me to deal with this whole
[17:17]court situation that I have to come back to New York, I had just become acquainted
[17:21]with like the group of women who were all writers and one of the women was like, you
[17:25]know, what can we do?
[17:26]How can we help you?
[17:27]One of my girlfriends, she has this nice, this little apartment in New York City.
[17:30]She was like, you can stay here because she's upstate with her, with her family.
[17:34]So fortunately, I just got this whole community to rally around me and just, you know, like
[17:38]in all on it, I could never have imagined how terrible the fight would have been and
[17:44]then how beautiful, like, the sisterhood is simultaneously.
[17:48]So it's like, my life is like extremes, like the extreme of the beauty of seeing this
[17:54]awesome community kind of blossom out of nowhere.
[17:57]And then the reality of a fight that I could never have even thought that this is where
[18:03]I would be as a woman, as a black woman, as a young black woman.
[18:06]How did your ex respond to this book?
[18:12]Like how were you able to even write about him?
[18:14]He hasn't said anything.
[18:16]Well, because it's true.
[18:17]No, I know, but you know, unfortunately, he hasn't said anything about it.
[18:21]There's nothing.
[18:22]I mean, and wasn't the first time that I wrote about our relationship.
[18:25]I had written about, I had written some essays in the past.
[18:28]And ultimately it's like, for me, it's not about just a conversation about my ex and
[18:32]how, you know, and even the abuse that I encountered dealing with my ex.
[18:37]It's not, it wasn't even just about that.
[18:39]It's really about using that story to educate women and educate any victims of abuse, male
[18:44]or female, and so that they can be more familiar with the cycle and make sure that they're
[18:49]not getting entrapped in anything like that.
[18:51]And then simultaneously to call America out and to demand better because, like, without
[18:58]swift intervention, like this thing will get worse.
[19:02]This because, you know, as I say, you know, about the unmasking, it's like people don't
[19:07]recognize like 2020 was a year of unmasking for America.
[19:11]Like the whole world saw so many failures of whether it be protecting the rights of black
[19:16]people with the murder of George Ford or whether it be protecting the dignity and the health
[19:21]of its citizens with the pandemic.
[19:23]It's like, the failures are so glaring now.
[19:26]And as a result of being in that moment where you're seeing the unmasking and the perception
[19:32]shift globally of what America is, that's when, for me, the people need to recognize
[19:37]it's their responsibility to make sure that America does right by them because it's going
[19:44]to do everything to protect itself, like these failed structures are going to do everything
[19:48]to protect themselves even as they've been unmasked.
[19:51]So we need to really make sure that we're, like, trying to organize and have accountability
[19:57]and make sure that we're safe.
[20:00]It makes me want to start a whole new government.
[20:02]Yeah.
[20:03]What if we just, what if we created what it should be?
[20:07]What if we rewrote the Constitution,
[20:09]we started it, pretended like we just woke up
[20:13]on this planet, and here we are.
[20:15]Like, how would we craft it today?
[20:17]Yes.
[20:18]And the use of the conversations that, you know,
[20:20]so many people are starting to have
[20:21]because it's like, you know, the piecemeal change
[20:26]is not sufficient to address the scale of the issue,
[20:30]whether we're climate, the climate crisis,
[20:33]whether we're looking at the health care system
[20:36]and how it's in shambles, whether we're looking
[20:38]at the family court system.
[20:40]I mean, the family court system is failing me
[20:43]and has failed women and children, not just because of like,
[20:46]the patriarchy, but because these people are actually overworked
[20:50]and there isn't the capacity to deal with the issue
[20:55]in a way that's like, you know, whatever system has been erected
[20:59]insufficient to actually address the issue.
[21:02]And so knowing that now, I can't tell people, you know,
[21:06]oh, just go vote or just do that.
[21:07]No, no, no, we need to actually be organizing
[21:10]to create entirely new systems or to call these systems to task
[21:13]in a way that will offer major change
[21:16]because that's the only way we're going to address this moment
[21:18]and have anything worthwhile to hand to our kids.
[21:22]Well, you are a great leader for this, you know?
[21:25]I'm serious, like you might not have wanted to be,
[21:27]but this is where you have landed.
[21:32]And it's, you know, it's where you're meant to be.
[21:35]You're going to, you can like make so much change yourself.
[21:38]It's really inspiring, really.
[21:40]I try to explain to my mom because, you know,
[21:41]my mom has been so heartbroken.
[21:43]I bet.
[21:44]Oh, sorry.
[21:46]No, it's terrible.
[21:47]This whole thing is so terrible.
[21:49]I, so where is she?
[21:50]Is she still in, in where is she?
[21:53]She's in turn about.
[21:54]She's still there.
[21:55]And what about your sister?
[21:57]She's there too.
[21:58]But I had to, I had to make her leave
[22:00]because she just couldn't deal.
[22:02]I was like, you cannot be here because every time
[22:04]with the court, she's expecting that it's like,
[22:08]okay, well, I'm here now, I'm in New York.
[22:10]I've been here for months.
[22:10]She's expecting all they're going to let us see the kids
[22:13]or, you know, she'll get to see them,
[22:15]but every single time it's always a delay,
[22:17]it's always like awful.
[22:19]And it got to the point and I was like,
[22:20]mom, I can't deal with how you're feeling
[22:23]and how I'm feeling.
[22:25]I can't do both.
[22:27]And I'm like, you know, aside from that,
[22:28]it's like, my book is coming out.
[22:30]Like everything is, it's like everything.
[22:33]I'm so sorry.
[22:34]I am so sorry.
[22:37]This must be devastating and exhausting
[22:40]and it's awful.
[22:43]And I'm just my, I'm so sorry.
[22:47]It's like an exhausting and empowering
[22:49]and angering and ever freaking thing.
[22:52]If I didn't feel these things,
[22:54]if I wasn't forced into this predicament,
[22:56]I wouldn't honestly feel the drive to meet the moment.
[23:00]And I'm grateful for that because, you know,
[23:05]I would say comfort breeds a certain level of like,
[23:09]you know, you allow yourself to be more complicit
[23:12]and even ignorance and ignorance.
[23:14]There's so much in how we are not treating other humans
[23:17]as humans and how we're not protecting children
[23:19]and how we're allowing a houseless population
[23:22]to just explode.
[23:23]It's like so many things that we allow as human beings
[23:27]once we have comfort.
[23:28]And so this disruption of my comfort has been so eye opening
[23:32]and like as terrible as it is,
[23:35]the other side to it is like that necessary anger,
[23:39]that fire under your butt to like get up and do something,
[23:42]say something, anything like anything.
[23:45]Well, well, if there's one thing listeners can do,
[23:48]it is to buy this book to help you out.
[23:52]Black American refugee escaping the narcissism
[23:56]of the American dream as a first step
[23:58]if you're responding to this conversation,
[24:00]that is step one is to get the book,
[24:02]read more about Tiffany and how amazing she is.
[24:04]What is the second step?
[24:05]What else is the most valuable thing
[24:08]that people listening can do?
[24:09]What do you think?
[24:10]The most valuable thing is to really sit
[24:13]with the lessons of the pandemic
[24:16]and to really analyze what we want
[24:18]from our individual lives moving forward
[24:21]because there's been this push to go back to normal, right?
[24:24]But we need to redefine what we want normal to be.
[24:28]We can no longer return to what it was before
[24:32]and each individual within themselves
[24:34]has this more beautiful, well-rounded idea
[24:38]of normal as a result of being exposed to pandemic.
[24:41]And they're letting that vision kind of fade away
[24:44]with this anticipation of things returning
[24:46]to the way they were, but I just caution people
[24:49]not to do that, like stay with that feeling
[24:51]of what it meant to not have to travel to a job
[24:54]every single day, like demand the right
[24:57]to actually have more time with your families,
[25:01]like these are the things that are going to drive us
[25:04]to making the necessary change that we need
[25:06]in this world.
[25:07]It's like the humanness, the love, the family,
[25:10]like refocusing on these things.
[25:12]And once we do as individuals,
[25:14]I feel like that's gonna create just ways of change
[25:17]in the whole society.
[25:19]Wow.
[25:20]Tiffany, I am, I'm gonna email you after this.
[25:23]I, my heart is just, I'm, I wanna see how I can help
[25:27]and what I can do.
[25:28]And anyway, you're lighting a fire under so many people
[25:32]and I hate that it's taken this terrible tragic time
[25:37]in your life to do it, but I'm impressed
[25:41]at how the grace with which you're doing it.
[25:44]Thank you.
[25:45]And thank you so much for the work that you're doing
[25:46]and giving writers a platform,
[25:49]giving moms a platform.
[25:51]Thank you for your advocating for my book.
[25:53]It was really, really amazing to see the article
[25:55]that it was just like really touching the roundup.
[25:58]I was like, oh, my God.
[26:01]It's my pleasure.
[26:03]All right, thank you so much.
[26:06]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[26:08]Don't have time to read books.
[26:09]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[26:11]at Zibi Owens and at Moms.
[26:13]Don't have time to read books.
[26:14]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com
[26:17]and sign up for my virtual book club
[26:19]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[26:21]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[26:23]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[26:25]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[26:27]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[26:30]All right.