Lauren Layne, MADE IN MANHATTAN
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[0:58]Lauren Lane is the author of Made in Manhattan
[1:00]She's the New York Times best-selling author of romantic fiction with millions of books sold worldwide
[1:06]Lauren has been featured on inside edition the Wall Street Journal buzzfeed the scam
[1:10]Oprah Magazine pop sugar and cost of haul to magazine
[1:13]She lives in New York City with her high school sweetheart
[1:16]Welcome Lauren. Thanks so much for coming on mom. Don't have time to read books to discuss made in Manhattan
[1:22]Thank you so much for having me
[1:24]I feel like I have an expert because I am sitting here on the upper east side
[1:28]So I feel like this story is from happening all around me as I was reading it
[1:32]Oh, so yeah, I'm actually a midtown girl myself
[1:35]So yeah, like like I kind of like will roam around every time like I think this could be in theory
[1:40]Would it's like to live here, but listen it comes from my imagination. Oh, I could just we could have like coffee
[1:44]I could have told you all right for a bit
[1:46]Next when I said there I do actually, you know, despite like I live in like Hell's Kitchen
[1:50]Which is a grittier area of Manhattan
[1:53]But I always go to the upper's for my books
[1:55]Like I said, I went to the upper west side and then I just keep coming back to the upper east side
[1:58]I don't know if it's not like gossip girl energy. It's just it's a beautiful beautiful place
[2:05]You know, there's still some fascination with these neighborhoods, you know, even though it's not very exciting
[2:10]I mean, you know, it's just like life going on as normal here
[2:14]But it's true. It's true
[2:15]I feel like there is even for me like a little bit of glamour and then like you see people coming out of there
[2:20]You know, like pretty brown stones and they're like, you know, they've got like their dog or like you know
[2:24]They're not like pulling at the leash and you're like, oh, yeah, they're just they're people like everybody's just gone about going about their life
[2:29]Yeah, the chaos inside is
[2:32]Pretty similar
[2:34]Despite the exterior. All right. Well, why don't you tell listeners a little about what made Manhattan is about?
[2:40]Sure. Yeah, it's the easiest way I guess to describe it is sort of
[2:43]Pygmalion in reverse and I mean reverse and not usually the straight Pygmalion is this guy who kind of makes over a
[2:49]Rough round the edges
[2:51]Lady or tries to disguise her as a lady and for the longest time
[2:54]I wanted to write a book where you had sort of this very like upper-class
[2:58]Prim woman who was tasked with taking this guy and he's like very much
[3:02]She's got like the beard and like ponytail and like the jeans. He does not like his suits
[3:06]And she has to basically get him boardroom ready as well as she's trying to sell him on New York as a city as well
[3:12]Because he's from Louisiana. So yeah, it's very I would I would say it's a fairy tale sort of which is
[3:18]You know tends to be sort of my my Emma with my stories anyway
[3:20]It's just sort of like this this fairy tale world like there's a lot that's maybe not realistic
[3:24]But but that's also kind of what I love about it. It's just a little escape. It is it's a it's a total escape
[3:30]And I just loved it. I was kind of picturing
[3:32]The main character as the mom from Gossip Girl, you know the do you remember blares?
[3:38]Yes, I came over her name in her life
[3:40]What's that spot on that is spot on? Yeah, that's sort of like how I was picturing her you know blonde and prim and all together
[3:46]And then I don't know maybe because his name was Kate and I was sort of picturing a Dean Kane kind of all more rugged
[3:52]I love you mentioned Dean came whatever people and like this
[3:55]I feel like ages me because I have a lot of readers that are like you know
[3:57]And they're like young 20s and they know all these really attractive young 20 stars
[4:01]And then they're like well, who's your celebrity crush? I'm like Dean Kane
[4:05]Back in the 90s
[4:07]I just loved him. So yeah, Dean Kane is is accurate. He's always on my list
[4:10]And I love this idea of trying to whip him into shape when he's so reluctant at first right this like
[4:19]Strapping sexy guy with like his unbutton jeans and you know this one night's standard whatever is going on
[4:25]And she's supposed to make him into forward room material
[4:28]It's like it's like a total sitcom or movie. It's just like perfect
[4:32]I just love the setup of this whole story
[4:35]Yeah, I do like my favorite ones to write or for sure the ones where you can kind of picture them as a movie
[4:39]I mean, that's always like the dream right to happen made into a movie
[4:42]But sometimes even just like and I'll even approach your writing it almost the way
[4:45]I would a screenplay just because I think it's so easy to help readers picture every moment when we as writers are picturing as a as a movie as well
[4:54]What made you decide for there to be loss in her life?
[4:57]Wait, I'm blinking on her her name. What is her name? What is it?
[5:01]So violence parents have have died in helicopter accident
[5:05]Yours prior and she has she was raised by her step
[5:09]Her great aunt is right either this is her grandma and then now
[5:13]Her grandma says passed on right and now she's like this eateth character. So her grandma's best friend. Yeah
[5:20]You know, I never really
[5:22]This sounds terrible. I had an editor once Tommy
[5:24]She's like you've a lot of orphans in your in your books
[5:27]And I'm like I do write a lot of characters that don't have parents
[5:30]And part of that I think is this is gonna sound terrible because I love my own parents
[5:33]I'm very close to them, but it's easier to not have parents in the story to have to write about because you know
[5:38]Like a lot of times like like these characters would be calling their mom all the time or getting advice
[5:42]You know career advice from the dad, you know, whatever it may be and sometimes I like to have them on their own a little bit
[5:47]Just because it forces them
[5:49]Forces them to grow a little bit in terms of this one though. I really it was kind of a plot device
[5:55]And that I needed I needed a reason why she would take on this challenge
[5:59]Because it's not like canes like he said, he's very reluctant
[6:02]He's not easy to get along with and I'm like okay
[6:03]Why why would she be bothering with this and I was thinking you know
[6:07]Edith was really sort of all that she had left in the world and Edith asked this up her
[6:11]She might be a little bit more inclined to sort of give up her life for several months to deal with this very reluctant man
[6:18]It's also kind of like what was the Adam Sandler movie where he has the grandfather
[6:23]He didn't know he had Mr. Deeds. Did you ever see that? Yeah? Yeah, there's something a little bit about that
[6:28]Where someone has just plucked down into this crazy world that they didn't expect to he's not this I mean
[6:32]It's not the same person. Well, anyway, just that element of it
[6:37]Not that you need to compare it. I also love this like the sexual undones right this like very
[6:43]Stevie sort of quiet subdued like she's embarrassed to admit and then they have this um
[6:48]Not to give anything away, which I will not but well, I can't even find it out
[6:52]But the scene where he's trying on all the clothes at what sounds like jay crew men's door on something on medicine
[6:58]And like everything is fitting imperfectly and and you said something like and then she start feeling a little warm
[7:05]And then her voice is a little preppy
[7:08]It's so funny. You said it because that actually so my like early early books were very steamy like making this one look tame
[7:15]Like there were like pure romance novel rated R and then my last few ones leading up to Mademann Hatton
[7:21]We're very much PG and I feel like this was me and I knew that like just a story
[7:25]Seems like it was gonna be a little bit steamier
[7:27]But I don't know if it was like me like having just written these PG ones and I'm like how do I do this again?
[7:32]So yeah, it was you can kind of tell like as I get more and more into like as the story goes
[7:36]And I'm like oh yeah, that's how you can kind of wind that the steamy threat throughout
[7:40]No, I got it. I was like like you know
[7:43]If you could lean into the book, you know to like
[7:46]Let's get ahead of it
[7:48]So it was funny wait
[7:49]So how you've written so many books tell me about your career
[7:52]How you got started like did you or you did you always want to be a writer? How did this whole thing happen? I did
[7:57]Yeah, so I'm like one of those like classic kids
[8:00]That was like the bookworm like from the second my parents
[8:02]I think my mom read me cast on the attic when I was like five
[8:05]And that was like the first chapter book experience and then second grade
[8:08]I discovered box car children and I don't know like it was just something like I just fell in love
[8:14]So hard with books and I read everything
[8:16]I was like the kid where my parents were like can't bring a book to the dinner table
[8:20]Or like we would go on vacation with like Disney World and I'd be like one more chapter one more chapter
[8:24]Like we got to go see Mickey
[8:25]So books have always been like that was I was a bookworm 100%
[8:29]And then yeah, I thought like well, there can be
[8:32]The only thing better than reading books must be writing them
[8:35]So when people would ask what I wanted to be I would say an author
[8:38]But of course, you know it was it took a little bit
[8:41]It took a little bit longer than that seemed like I went to college
[8:44]I was going to be an English major
[8:45]I randomly got a poly side agree
[8:48]And then after college, you know, I had to like pay the bills
[8:50]So I worked as a receptionist
[8:52]And then I was actually an e-commerce and web marketing manager for T-Mobile
[8:56]So like I had this my entire 20s was sort of this whole other corporate career
[9:00]And the whole time, especially you know, when if I was like a little bit board at work
[9:04]Or I was just sick of my cubicle
[9:05]It was always in the back of my head like wouldn't it be so great
[9:08]If I could be a writer
[9:10]But I really like my my parents are like in the medical profession
[9:13]Like like I was very much like the black sheep on the kind of creative side
[9:16]And I was like I think people don't do that right
[9:18]Like real people have a nine to five
[9:20]And I just had this whole idea of what life was supposed to be
[9:23]And I think I was about 28 and I just said you know what like I am so
[9:27]I'm so tired of being that woman that keeps talking about writing the book
[9:30]But I had never really tried
[9:32]So I I got my laptop and every weekend
[9:36]I just I wrote like 8 to 10,000 words
[9:38]Just you know and sort of like a lunch break
[9:40]And early morning I learned to be an early morning person
[9:43]Because I'm like I got a gut early before I have to do the work thing
[9:45]And yeah, I finally finished my my first book only with you
[9:49]And I did the whole period agent thing
[9:50]It was just very like old fashioned like suffer through the book
[9:54]It was pretty terrible
[9:55]Try to learn how to edit it
[9:56]And then you know, eventually I got the agent and the book deal
[9:59]And then my husband
[10:00]and I just happened right around that same time.
[10:02]He got a job off in New York City
[10:04]so we moved there right as I got the agent
[10:07]and sort of we were taking off a little bit.
[10:09]Wait, where had you been before that?
[10:11]We're both from Seattle.
[10:12]So I wrote my first book in Seattle.
[10:14]I showed my first two,
[10:15]like I have one that's set in the Seattle suburbs
[10:17]because like that's what I knew.
[10:18]And then moved to New York City
[10:19]and then that just became a huge part of my brand.
[10:21]Wait, how long ago did this all start?
[10:24]When to do write your first book?
[10:26]Well, I wrote my first book in,
[10:27]I wrote it probably in 2010, 2011,
[10:31]finished in 2011 and that was that summer.
[10:34]It was actually like,
[10:35]I think within days of having typed at the end.
[10:38]And it was also coincidentally right
[10:39]as our lease was coming up in Seattle.
[10:41]And we're like, what are we gonna do?
[10:42]Or are we gonna buy a house and do like the kids suburb thing?
[10:45]And it was, I just finished this book
[10:47]and I really wanted to quit my job and be a writer.
[10:49]And then my husband got this,
[10:51]the job offer in New York City
[10:52]and we'd never even been to New York.
[10:54]But we kind of were like,
[10:55]you know what, like if we don't do it now,
[10:56]we're never gonna do it.
[10:57]And our life just took this wild turn
[11:00]first of all, like we crossed the country,
[11:02]kind of completely unplanned, very unplanned,
[11:04]it's very unorganized.
[11:06]And then yeah, that I just buckle down.
[11:08]I'm like, you know what, can I have six months
[11:10]to try to like get this writing thing off the ground
[11:12]so like get the book deal
[11:14]and prove that I can make money from it.
[11:15]And yeah, eventually,
[11:17]you probably took closer a year
[11:18]before I made any kind of money,
[11:20]but eventually it became my dream career.
[11:23]Wow.
[11:24]And so what is your timing?
[11:25]You're doing like two a year?
[11:27]What is your cadence of writing and selling and all that?
[11:31]It slowed down quite a bit.
[11:32]It was for a while there when I was first kind of starting out
[11:35]and this was also back when this was like the boom
[11:38]of ebooks, probably 2013 through 2015
[11:42]where in my publisher was like,
[11:43]we just want more ebooks and the beauty of that
[11:45]is that you can get them out much quicker
[11:47]or my publisher could because you have to do
[11:49]the printing and the shipping and the shelf space.
[11:51]So I think I was doing like four to six for a while there
[11:54]which was nuts, but I also think it was probably necessary
[11:56]to sort of get my four to six.
[11:59]Yeah, four to six a year.
[12:01]And now, you know, it didn't seem that,
[12:03]it really didn't seem that crazy at the time.
[12:05]Now that I've slowed down and I'm just trying to get three
[12:07]I'm like, oh, that's it's harder than I remember
[12:10]but also COVID did, I think COVID through.
[12:13]The way it did for pretty much everything
[12:14]and through a bunch of things a little bit.
[12:16]I went through a few months where I'm like,
[12:17]you know, I can't, I can't write romance right now.
[12:19]I can't write these lighthearted love stories.
[12:21]So I took a step back and I'm just now I think
[12:24]kind of kind of getting back into that headspace a little bit.
[12:27]So yeah, I would say teens are your question.
[12:28]Probably I'm hoping to do three this year
[12:31]and then four next year is my plan.
[12:35]That's a lot.
[12:36]So are you sitting doing it all?
[12:39]Like, are you writing words all day?
[12:40]Are you like, how are you getting that many words
[12:44]out in a given week?
[12:45]I do. So as I mentioned, when I was doing the corporate thing
[12:49]I learned to be an early riser.
[12:51]So I never considered myself a warning person
[12:52]but I was like, okay, Lauren,
[12:54]if you're gonna have time to like wash and dry your hair
[12:56]and commute to work,
[12:57]you're gonna have to start getting up at five
[12:58]to write the book.
[12:59]So ever since then, even though I don't have to get up
[13:01]at five anymore, that's still very much my cadence
[13:04]and I write first thing, especially if I'm in a deadline,
[13:07]like it's like my husband's suite, he makes the coffee
[13:09]and brings the coffee and I already have the laptop open.
[13:12]And I mostly, I just write in the morning until I hit
[13:14]whatever the word count is.
[13:16]And I have like my writing program will,
[13:18]if I put in like the target word count and my due day,
[13:21]it tells me like you need to write 3000 or 2000 days.
[13:25]And I'm like, here we go.
[13:26]But I also, I write fairly quickly.
[13:28]And I know that sounds like really, really braggy
[13:31]but it's just, I think I always have
[13:34]and I don't know if it's cause I'm a fast taper.
[13:35]It doesn't take as long as people think to do the first draft.
[13:40]For me, the part that really is sort of the more time
[13:43]consuming and the more difficult is after I've turned
[13:45]in that first draft, which takes me like three weeks maybe
[13:48]and then when it comes back from my editor,
[13:50]that's the point where I could spend like days and days
[13:52]just editing chapter one.
[13:54]So that's kind of, that's the harder part for me.
[13:56]And that looks a little different
[13:57]because I'm, I'm not technically even at my computer
[14:00]in the entire time.
[14:01]I may be sort of like outlining or brainstorming
[14:03]or jotting down notes, figuring out how to sort of finesse it.
[14:06]But yeah, I mostly, I write in the morning.
[14:07]I would say most days I'm done writing by about 9 a.m.
[14:13]And then what do you do?
[14:14]That's a good question.
[14:16]It's a lot of the business stuff
[14:19]that comes just with author things.
[14:21]There's podcasts, there's the Zoom interviews, book clubs,
[14:24]newsletter, I'm a big fan of websites.
[14:27]So we actually, my husband and I launch a bunch
[14:30]of all their websites sort of in our spare time.
[14:33]I think websites are important.
[14:34]So that's sort of my geeky side habit.
[14:37]And then lately I've been trying to just
[14:39]spend a little more time living.
[14:40]I was very much for a while.
[14:42]They're working kind of around the clock
[14:44]constantly trying to build this Lauren Lane brand.
[14:46]And now I'm trying to teach myself watercolor
[14:49]and I watch a little bit more TV than I used to allow myself
[14:52]and just relaxing, relaxing a little bit.
[14:54]So the mornings are kind of nuts
[14:55]and then the afternoons are, it's just the easier stuff.
[15:00]The Instagram and the newsletter
[15:01]and then getting back to read or emails,
[15:03]all those, the more fun things.
[15:05]Wow.
[15:06]Can I hear the story of how you fell in love with your husband?
[15:09]I feel like I, you guys have the best relationship.
[15:11]I'm here, first of all, he's giving you this microphone.
[15:13]He's like, I feel like he's so doting.
[15:15]I don't know, I gotta meet this guy.
[15:17]Tell me about him.
[15:18]But he's like, he's like ridiculously
[15:20]and he cooks too.
[15:20]That's the only, not only does he cook,
[15:22]he like makes really good food.
[15:24]I'm like, how did I get so lucky?
[15:26]But we actually we met when we were 15
[15:28]in high school, we started dating when we were 17
[15:30]also in high school and we have been together ever since.
[15:34]So here we are, we're in high school three arts.
[15:36]Wow.
[15:37]Yeah, we're, it's kind of one of the things.
[15:39]And I'm, I'm foremost older than him,
[15:41]but I'm like a, a great ahead in school.
[15:44]So when we first like were properly,
[15:46]like let's actually start dating,
[15:48]I was getting ready to graduate from my school
[15:51]and he was, you know, a junior
[15:52]and I had already been accepted to college.
[15:54]I was, we were in Seattle.
[15:55]I was going to college in California.
[15:57]And I think in the back of my head,
[15:59]this sounds very unromantic,
[16:00]but I was kind of like, hello, like statistically,
[16:02]like this isn't going to last,
[16:04]but you know, like let's as long as it's, you know,
[16:05]like good and we're getting along
[16:07]and we can kind of manage like the phone call thing,
[16:09]let's just keep going.
[16:10]And it never, and I don't want to say it was,
[16:12]it was easy in that first year,
[16:13]but never, yeah.
[16:15]And I'm like, like that sort of his like joke,
[16:17]he's like, yeah, people ask like,
[16:18]hey, you didn't like, you just keep going.
[16:19]Like we just kept, kept dating somehow.
[16:22]I feel really lucky because it's, yeah,
[16:25]he's a great guy.
[16:26]It's like, what's the secret to a long marriage?
[16:29]It's like just not breaking up.
[16:30]That's actually, he's a comedian
[16:33]and he has a joke where sort of is like,
[16:34]you just like, you don't break up.
[16:36]Like that's a simple, people want marital advice.
[16:39]That's how you do it.
[16:40]But yeah, where I'm just one of the lucky ones
[16:42]that found one of the really good ones
[16:44]when he was 15.
[16:45]I snatched him off the market.
[16:47]I'm interested in your discrete first.
[16:49]What is the name of the program?
[16:51]He is that calculates your word count.
[16:53]That's interesting.
[16:54]I use Ulysses.
[16:55]So that is a Mac only program.
[16:57]I would also say I'm pretty sure Scrivener,
[16:59]which is a common, I think Scrivener does that as well.
[17:02]I'm not mistaken.
[17:04]But yeah, Ulysses, it's great.
[17:05]Every project I open it up.
[17:07]And I know that my first drafts
[17:08]are usually 60,000 words, which is short,
[17:11]but I usually write my first one's pretty short.
[17:13]And I put that in and I put my due date
[17:15]and it's fantastic because then I don't have to worry.
[17:18]Like if I have a lot of time,
[17:19]it may be like, you need to write 40 words today.
[17:22]Like I can do it most often I wait until the end
[17:26]and I tend to do bigger bursts.
[17:28]Oh, and I would also say I'm not one of the people.
[17:30]I like to get on this soap box when I can.
[17:33]I think there's this common mis-proof section,
[17:35]especially for new authors that you have to write every day.
[17:38]And you have a lot of very, very successful writers
[17:40]that advocate for that.
[17:41]Like I think Stephen King and Nora Roberts,
[17:43]all these huge names, James Patterson,
[17:46]that is a routine is they write a little bit every day
[17:48]and that's how they do it.
[17:50]And I subscribe to that as well,
[17:51]but I don't do that.
[17:53]I go like many, many weeks
[17:55]where I won't write a single word.
[17:56]And then when inspiration strikes,
[17:58]I may write 10,000 words or like 18,000 words in a day.
[18:02]So if anybody's out there thinking
[18:04]you have to write every day, you don't have to.
[18:06]You can write in bursts if you want.
[18:07]That's sort of my, my strange rhythm.
[18:10]So what is your secret to sort of getting to this whole market?
[18:15]Like you allocate your day to,
[18:18]as you said, the book clubs and the social media
[18:20]and all this stuff.
[18:21]And there is like so much of a huge business component
[18:23]and marketing of the product.
[18:25]First is just the production of the product
[18:26]and the marketing and the product.
[18:28]How do you do it?
[18:29]Like what is the secret sauce?
[18:30]What do you think?
[18:31]You know, it's like this is a,
[18:33]it's like this is easier.
[18:34]It's harder now than ever.
[18:35]And I feel like every author probably thinks
[18:37]like that whatever period they're in is most difficult.
[18:41]But the romance in particular is so saturated.
[18:44]Like there is just every single week,
[18:46]books usually come out on Tuesday and me as a reader.
[18:49]You know, if I go in looking for a rom-com
[18:51]or something like like there is just so many choices.
[18:54]And I'm like, oh my gosh, if I'm having this,
[18:56]then you know, readers are having this,
[18:58]the same issue of like where do you start
[19:00]when there's 20 new options every single week.
[19:03]So I think kind of I've been back and forth.
[19:06]I actually took a social media hiatus
[19:08]for like a year and a half, which was nuts.
[19:11]Like I mean, I full on shut everything down.
[19:12]I just wasn't on social media kind of thinking like,
[19:15]you know, can I just focus on the books?
[19:18]Can I just sort of, you know, that sort of idea?
[19:20]Like if you build it, they will come.
[19:22]And I think I am back on Instagram now.
[19:25]I think, you know, it really is just writing
[19:27]the best book possible.
[19:29]And yes, you do have to do some amount of marketing.
[19:32]I'm not one of two things.
[19:33]You can just like completely live in a cave
[19:35]and you never send a newsletter and make it.
[19:38]But yeah, I'm a big fan of prioritizing the stories first.
[19:42]So if that means that I go months without sending my newsletter
[19:44]or doing an Instagram story
[19:45]because I'm in the writing cave,
[19:47]I allow myself to do that
[19:48]because I think it makes the book stronger.
[19:50]And then I'm an advocate for sort of being okay
[19:54]doing things differently.
[19:56]I'm not, you know, different for different sake,
[19:58]but in a world where so many.
[20:00]Things look exactly the same.
[20:01]You know, we're Instagram feeds look the same.
[20:03]I'm like, everybody's doing the same.
[20:05]I'm not on TikTok.
[20:06]I try to talk for like a hot minute,
[20:08]but you know, where they're the TikTok,
[20:09]like there's a trending audio and all those things.
[20:11]Anytime I can sort of say, okay,
[20:13]if that's what everybody else is doing,
[20:15]how can I stand out even a little tiny bit
[20:17]just to somehow make yourself memorable?
[20:20]I guess that's the, after that ramble,
[20:22]the way that I would recommend figure out
[20:24]like what you can do to make yourself memorable.
[20:26]How can you stand out from other authors in your genre?
[20:29]Because no matter what genre we're writing
[20:30]and whether it's children, book, or fantasy,
[20:32]or sci-fi, thrillers, romance,
[20:34]there's thousands in romance.
[20:37]There's millions of other authors
[20:38]trying to do the same thing.
[20:40]So how can you kind of build your core audience?
[20:43]So interesting.
[20:44]I love that.
[20:45]Do you think there should be,
[20:46]like I feel the same way sometimes,
[20:48]like there are just so many books.
[20:49]And, you know, I try really hard to promote
[20:51]as many books as I can to like help with curation
[20:54]or whatever, but it is, it can be overwhelming.
[20:57]But on the other side,
[20:58]there are still so many other people
[21:00]who have great books that haven't even been published.
[21:03]Like there's, you know what I mean?
[21:05]So when I said I was like, well maybe
[21:06]there's just too much supply.
[21:07]There's like this over abundance of supply
[21:10]that can't be there's not enough demand for,
[21:12]there's too much, right?
[21:13]There's too much.
[21:14]And yet, there's still so much more production possibility.
[21:19]Like, I don't know.
[21:20]You don't want to like ever have people
[21:22]stop writing all these books.
[21:24]I mean, I want all the great books to come out.
[21:27]And I want people to keep reading.
[21:28]Are people reading enough?
[21:29]Or maybe people are just reading less
[21:30]or maybe I shouldn't be worried about it.
[21:33]I don't know.
[21:34]Like that could have come straight from my own head
[21:36]because I have the same thought
[21:36]where like there's so many books.
[21:38]And sometimes like I just wish there were
[21:40]like the good old days.
[21:41]Like I sometimes let myself go back there to back
[21:43]when I was like in my teen years
[21:45]and I would go to Barnes and Noble's or Borders
[21:47]like back in the day.
[21:48]And like there would just be like a couple shelves
[21:51]with romance.
[21:52]And I would know my people are authors
[21:53]and there may be six new releases a month
[21:56]or whatever it was.
[21:57]And you know, I think it was probably easier.
[21:59]But I try to remember the flip side
[22:01]is that there were so, so few authors
[22:04]that were getting a chance back then.
[22:05]You know, because there was the gatekeepers
[22:07]and all these different things.
[22:09]Whereas now that we do have like the beauty
[22:10]of self-publishing.
[22:11]Yes, that means there's a lot more competition.
[22:13]But it also means that there's so many more stories
[22:16]that can make it into the hands of readers.
[22:18]And I try to focus on that.
[22:20]And like, you know what, it really does come down
[22:22]to the stories and the readers.
[22:23]And I really believe that there are just these pockets
[22:26]of readers that will love what you're writing.
[22:29]You know, like we don't all have to.
[22:31]Number one, New York Times best sellers
[22:33]in order to be successful is just finding your readers
[22:35]that like what you were putting out there
[22:37]on a consistent basis.
[22:39]I love that.
[22:40]That's so great.
[22:41]Yes.
[22:42]It sounds really thin right now.
[22:43]I mean, catch me against another release week.
[22:44]I'm like, I'm not doing it as well as so and so.
[22:47]And I hate when I get that mindset.
[22:48]So I have like a whole notebook of ways
[22:50]to like kind of reframe whenever I get that sense
[22:53]of discouragement.
[22:55]Yeah.
[22:56]You should write that article.
[22:57]Can you write that up?
[22:58]I have a little website called that website,
[23:00]but I have a medium publication called Moms Have Time
[23:03]to Write.
[23:04]And we have all these essays by authors a lot of the time.
[23:06]Oh, but you should write that.
[23:07]You should totally write that.
[23:09]I want to read that.
[23:10]First of all.
[23:11]Yeah, it's my to-do list right now.
[23:13]Yeah.
[23:14]You can do that after your morning writing.
[23:15]And like, you know, Friday or something for it.
[23:19]So what's your next book going to be about?
[23:21]My next book, so I'm returning to my roots a little bit
[23:24]of I'm going back in this.
[23:25]Made in Manhattan was a little bit steamy.
[23:28]I've got a book out in July called You Again.
[23:30]And You Again, I don't know like where it came from
[23:32]is like the steamiest thing I've ever written.
[23:35]This is just something like, oh, my mom doesn't read this one.
[23:38]But it's very much as sort of, I would describe it
[23:40]as like a classic love story.
[23:42]It's just a guy and girl in New York.
[23:44]And they made it a bar.
[23:45]And they just keep running into each other
[23:46]like at the workplace, you know, mutual friends wedding.
[23:50]And they're complete opposites.
[23:51]They don't get along.
[23:53]But of course, spoiler alert, opposites attract.
[23:56]And it was, you know, it's just fun.
[23:57]It's, I think there's a lot of pressure sometimes
[23:59]or I put pressure on myself to write these really high
[24:03]concept books where it's like the pig million in reverse
[24:06]or, you know, something that's like a movie pitch worthy.
[24:08]And sometimes I just, like I said,
[24:09]I want to write the love story.
[24:11]And that's what I sat down to do.
[24:12]And it sort of, you know, it flew out of me.
[24:14]So that one is out in mid-July.
[24:16]Don't know when exactly yet.
[24:17]But that's just a fun romance.
[24:20]It reminds me of like a, almost like a really steamy
[24:22]Hallmark movie type of thing where it's, you know,
[24:25]like a little bit simpler.
[24:27]There's not a ton of side characters
[24:28]and like plot and like dangerous stuff going on.
[24:31]It's just two people living in New York.
[24:33]Love it.
[24:34]One last question on the marketing side.
[24:36]You said you do a lot of author websites.
[24:38]What do you think it's important for authors
[24:40]to include in their websites or what characteristics?
[24:43]Somebody holding back, I could go on forever.
[24:45]The short version is that you really only need six pages.
[24:49]You need your home page, your books page, your contact page.
[24:52]You need to have an individual like book page template.
[24:55]So each story that you write needs its own book page.
[24:59]And that is probably my biggest not pet peeve.
[25:02]But that's one thing that I see a lot of people doing
[25:04]is they'll put all their books on one page
[25:06]and just call it books.
[25:07]But you want to have an individual page
[25:09]so that on social media or your newsletter,
[25:11]you can link to each one individually.
[25:13]So that's my biggest bit of advice and then a newsletter.
[25:16]And I think I named five, I might be forgetting one.
[25:19]But in terms of sort of strategy,
[25:21]it's focused on what your readers want.
[25:24]And I see a lot of authors will go in there
[25:27]with sort of like this grand vision
[25:28]of what they think makes a great website.
[25:30]And I'm sure it's beautiful.
[25:31]But like I know for me, the number one page on my own website
[25:35]is just my reading order.
[25:37]And it's literally just like a white page
[25:39]with black text of my books and order.
[25:42]And that's what the readers want.
[25:44]So I always encourage them to pay attention,
[25:46]pay attention to your data,
[25:47]because you can get free Google Analytics.
[25:49]You'll be able to see which pages your readers want
[25:52]and make sure that that's easy to find.
[25:54]It's really kind of as simple as that.
[25:56]And then on top of that, I do love the idea of branding
[25:59]a little bit, sort of what we were just talking about
[26:01]in terms of what makes you different.
[26:03]Like why would somebody want to read your book
[26:05]instead of somebody else's, excuse me, somebody else's?
[26:08]How can you convey that on your website?
[26:10]So for me, it's a lot of New York pictures
[26:11]because I have this sort of very like fancy,
[26:14]like upscale fantasy New York brand.
[26:17]But if yours is small town, make sure that that says that
[26:20]on your home page.
[26:21]So that somebody coming in and say,
[26:22]okay, yes, that's what I am looking for
[26:26]as opposed to just a list of your books,
[26:28]which is great.
[26:29]But if nobody's ever heard of you before,
[26:31]chances are they're not gonna go through
[26:32]and click on each one.
[26:33]They want the highlight reel.
[26:35]Like, who are you?
[26:36]What can I expect from your stories?
[26:38]Like a going forever.
[26:40]You should, this is really great.
[26:42]I might be actually offering some classes,
[26:44]called Z classes.
[26:45]I have this whole, I have like a publishing company
[26:47]and a website and podcast network and blah, blah, blah.
[26:50]Anyway, but I wanna launch some classes soon.
[26:51]So I feel like you should teach a class
[26:53]in like author marketing.
[26:54]Like it's so important and everyone is obsessed
[26:56]with this right now.
[26:57]Yeah.
[26:58]I don't know if you wanna talk after this.
[27:00]I wanna take your class.
[27:01]I wanna listen to everything you say,
[27:02]as an author myself.
[27:03]So it's so funny, you mentioned like you've got
[27:07]all these things going on,
[27:08]which I had kind of known because you know,
[27:09]I've like done my research and I followed you for a while,
[27:11]but my husband actually, he saw this.
[27:13]I had it on the calendar.
[27:15]And he went to your website and you know,
[27:16]you like knew more about you than I did
[27:18]before this podcast.
[27:19]I'm telling you, I love this husband years.
[27:20]I feel like we all have to go.
[27:22]I have a younger husband too, much younger than a couple of months.
[27:25]He's like, it's my second husband,
[27:26]but he's like six years younger.
[27:27]Anyway, we're all in New York.
[27:29]We should all meet up sometime.
[27:30]Have you doing talk about the writing and all this stuff?
[27:33]And my like, I can, and I can, and I can find out
[27:36]if upper east side you can tell me
[27:37]if I'm even remotely close.
[27:39]Like when I walk by like, I'm probably like really creepy
[27:42]now that I think about it.
[27:43]Like sometimes I'll like cruise down like 84 street
[27:46]or whatever, just like, you know,
[27:47]like looking up at all the brand stones
[27:49]trying to like my notebook, trying to figure out
[27:50]like what's going on in there.
[27:52]Oh my gosh, you have to come over.
[27:53]I have to like, I have to like take you on a tour
[27:55]of my friend's house and just like,
[27:57]I've lived here my whole life.
[27:58]I know a lot of people.
[27:59]All right, we're gonna do fun stuff if you want.
[28:02]If you want.
[28:03]Anyway, all right, thank you so much.
[28:05]This was really fun.
[28:06]I actually learned a lot.
[28:07]That was great.
[28:08]I shouldn't say actually.
[28:09]I learned a lot.
[28:10]That was great.
[28:11]And thank you for made and mid hadn't.
[28:14]Really fun.
[28:15]Yeah, thank you.
[28:16]Thank you so much for having me ahead.
[28:16]The best time.
[28:18]All right, so how do your husband?
[28:19]Well, well, I will.
[28:20]Okay, bye.
[28:21]Bye.
[28:23]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms
[28:25]Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[28:27]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zebioens
[28:30]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[28:32]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioens.com
[28:35]And sign up for my virtual book club
[28:36]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[28:39]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[28:42]for the Sound Editing.
[28:43]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[28:45]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.