Alan J. Patricof, NO RED LIGHTS: Reflections on Life, 50 Years in Venture Capital, and Never Driving Alone

[1:08]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, the creator and host of the award winning podcast that you're listening to right now, thank you so much, called Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. It is a daily podcast three hundred and sixty five days a year, and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career, their book, their life, and more in thirty minutes or less because who has time? I am now an author myself, although I wasn't when I started this podcast, and you can get my new memoir, A Memoir of Love, Loss, and Literature wherever books are sold starting July 1, and my children's book, Princess Charming. You can learn more about me at zibbyowens.com. But really, you're here to learn more about the authors, and that is what we're going to do. Also, sure to check out all the other podcasts in the ZCast Podcast Network. You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com, and definitely check out those shows as well. Alan Patrikoff is the author of No Reflections on Life, fifty Years in Venture Capital, and Never Driving Alone. I've also known him, I think, since I was born. Anyway, Alan Patrikoff is the co founder of Primetime Partners and the co founder and chairman emeritus of Graycroft LP. A longtime innovator and advocate for venture capital, Allen entered the industry in its formative days with the creation of Patrikoff and Co Ventures Inc, a predecessor to Apex Partners, today one of the world's leading private equity firms with $50,000,000,000 under management. He stepped back from the daily administration and operational aspects of Apex Partners LP in 2004 to concentrate on a group of small venture deals on its behalf. In 2006, he founded Graycroft, a venture capital firm, to invest in leading early and expansion stage investments in digital media. With offices in New York and Los Angeles, Graycroft is currently investing from its fifth fund as well as its second growth fund and has 2,000,000,000 plus under management. With a forty plus year career in venture capital, Allen has been instrumental in growing the venture capital field and is playing a key role in its evolution. You will hear when we talk that he has invested in major global companies, including America Online, Office Depot, Cadence Systems, Cellular Communications, Apple Computer, and many others, including Audible. He was a founder and chairman of the board of New York Magazine, which later acquired the Village Voice and New West. Enjoy our conversation. It was amazing. Welcome. I want to call this next guest, Mr. Patricoff, because I have known him since I was a little girl, and that is what I used to call him. Now his name is actually Alan, but I feel uncomfortable even changing how I think of it. So anyway, whoever, whatever, welcome. Thanks for coming on. Thank you for inviting me. Of course. Great things about this podcast. So I've been looking forward to it. Oh, I hope I don't disappoint you. Advice to you. Okay, I found your book absolutely fascinating. No red lights. You talked about everything from the things you did invest in, the things you didn't invest in, how you even started investing and shared intimate details about your late wife's descent into Alzheimer's and aphasia, all of the stages, your family life. I mean, this was comprehensive, thought provoking, emotional, and ultimately inspiring. So thank you for writing it. Thank you. If

[4:29]Alan J. Patricof: it's appropriate, I'd like to tell you why I wrote it because I was going to ask, so go ahead. Yeah. Why I chose the title. I mean, clearly the title, No Red Lights, and your podcasters can't see the cover, but it's got three green stoplights on it. And it was because of the way I've lived my life, which has been a multifaceted life in which I've tried to taste every opportunity that's come my way. And I wanted to really write it first for two different constituencies. One is for younger people who at some early point and stage in their life, and to say, don't get unidimensional. If you're in the finance business, don't get stuck in finance. If you're in law or real estate or anything else, be open to all the opportunities that come your way and seek them out. Be curious. And so live a life as I have, which has been not just in the world of venture capital, which I'm probably most well known for, but I've done work in the field of international development. I've been involved in politics and theater and in art, classic cars. I've tried to, everything I could, I've tried to explore. That's why, as you know, I'm going into Burning Man this year, A step forward, but it's there. Why am I doing it? Because it's there, just like people climb Mount Everest. So that was one. The other constituency, which is probably not your main audience, but is for older people who are retiring or being forced into retirement at 60 or whatever age and are packing it in and going to Florida or playing golf or dropping out is to say, life is just beginning. I mean, I have said for many, many years I'm gonna live to 114 and I really believe it. So, you know, I'm 87. I started my third firm two years ago at age 85. And I believe I'm gonna live to 114, which if I'm 87 means I have twenty seven years left, that's a long time. I could do a lot of things in that period. And if you think about people who are in 60 who are being forced out or decided to sell their business, if they subscribe to what I'm saying, they have fifty four years to go. I have these two bookended constituencies and I hope to inspire both ends of it. And I risk my own stature by becoming a poster child for someone at 87 now. I can live with it since I'm gonna, as you probably also know, I'm determined to walk, run, walk, jog the marathon this year, which will be the fifth, sixth time I've done it, I hope I can finish. Jamie, my son, who's a friend of yours, says that if I get close enough, he's gonna carry me across the finish line.

[7:30]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. I know. As the book was going on, you kept talking about all these goals and all these I was like, okay, he's just never gonna stop. You're like, you're just like one goal after another. In fact, one part that particularly struck me, which I feel like is very in line sort of with what you're saying is when you were talking about how Apex APA slash Apex, the company you had founded had and how successful it was, how it had more than $60,000,000,000 under management. And then after this whole paragraph where you were saying all the things, you said, I was bored. I totally get it. Like, here you are. Most people would be thrilled. Right? They have this fabulous firm and all this stuff and know you needed a new challenge. And then you say, I was bored. I remember calling Susan from The Office one hot summer Friday in 2001. I was feeling very low about something. And I said, we should go to a funny movie. So you see a funny movie, and then you say, after thirty years, the time had come to try something new. My my sons have pointed out that the decision I made shortly thereafter to transition from Apex left a lot of money on the table. Money alone, however, wasn't enough to keep me. I was ready to try a new route.

[8:37]Alan J. Patricof: Yeah. And I I then spent three or four years traveling all around the world. Probably one of my most exciting times, I was an advisor to the president of Nigeria, and I spent time there. I was an advisor to the World Bank, all pro bono, involved with the IFC. I worked at a couple of nonprofits and all involved in taking my experience, which frankly was my wife, Susan's idea. She said, use your experience in entrepreneurial development and startups and try to apply that in a different place in the developing world. So I traveled from Bangladesh to Bolivia, to the headquarters of the Amazon to all over Africa. I I I must have visited at least 10 or more company countries in Africa. And then I decided it was time to go back in the venture capital business. The reason I left APEX was Board was part of it with Board because it had become a private equity firm. And I really love the idea of startups and entrepreneurs and working from the ground up. Because I think, for me, that's an exciting area. And now, as you know, at age 85, I started my third firm, Primetime Partners, which I think is a great name for focused entirely on people who to serve the aging population. Since by 2030, there will be more people 60 than there will be people under kids 18. They have the most money to spend, fastest growing segment, and no one was paying real attention to it. And so I started a firm with a partner who you may know, Abby Levy, who is- You do. Who's, let's say in her late 40s, I don't want to give her age away, who's a fabulous partner. And we invest in products, services, experiences, technologies that do anything to help people live to 114. And it's been an exciting two years. And I think there's a good probability there'll be primetime too. And then the question will be whether I have a fourth chapter. You know, maybe I'll start the fourth chapter at a 100. That'll really shock everybody. But in the meantime, I expect to be the oldest person in Burning Man this year and the oldest person that who finishes the marathon, even though I'll be walking and jogging, I'm not running it.

[10:55]Zibby Owens: Well, I do know Abby Levy. I've known her for, I don't know, twenty years or something. So I'm thrilled you two are partnering. But I think that this idea of yours is so spot on. And I love how you share that if you follow these certain steps, which I know it's not rocket science, but it's what you do to stay healthy and fit and mentally totally on your game and everything, and that there aren't these huge secrets, that there are ways to extend the longevity of your life. You plan to do them. Intellectual curiosity, I think, really ups the ante and makes the time more fun. And then, of course, you can pursue all these interesting businesses. It's it's so it's not only inspiring. I know you said part of your market was for older people for this book, but I at age 45, which I'm happy to disclose, find it very inspiring because I've already felt like the ticking of the clock. And to have the clock extend into overtime essentially is a huge relief to me at this point of my life. So I don't know. I think it's I think I think you should expand the target audience a little bit younger. Well, you know, the truth is a

[12:01]Alan J. Patricof: surprising thing. I would say most of the companies we've backed have been started by people who are honestly under 45. They've been in their thirties who are people who have a parent or a grandparent or maybe a brother or someone who has had something that they recognize there's something missing in taking care of people who are getting older. And it's really interesting. I mean, of the things we wanted to do, which we have not yet, it's not that we haven't succeeded, is we also want to back older people who want to go back into a business and do the same thing and attract people from their former business and build a second or third round. And you don't go into a venture capitalist office and see a lot of people 50 sitting in the waiting room to present their deals. I mean, it's usually younger people who are starting. And so we want to serve the older generation. And we also want it, we'd like to back some people who want to go into a second or third round. I hope, I've decided to become a poster child for this and encourage people. Remember, I started Greycroft at 72 and primetime at 85. So I really,

[13:22]Zibby Owens: nothing has defeated me, and who knows what the future's gonna bring. And actually Dana Suttle was in my business school class, so I know her too. And interesting

[13:31]Alan J. Patricof: you mentioned that I started my first firm with a woman who joined me very shortly thereafter by the name of Patricia Clarity, who became the first woman in the venture business and the first woman who became head of the National Venture Capital Association, and has invested in every fund I've ever done and is still a very close friend. The second fund I did, Greycroft, with Dana, and my third fund with Abby Levy. So there must be something that, I work well with women, I think. Haven't hired a lot of women and have backed a lot of women businesses. Not that I'm frankly, it's wherever the dust settles. I mean, whoever happens to come in with the right team, right idea, and has got the talent. But I certainly am someone who's been very open minded about it. And when we when I started, believe me, a woman in venture capital was a very an anomaly. And as I say in the book early on, I remember one particular person who didn't wouldn't deal with Patricia because she was a woman. You don't have that happen anymore today. And I do believe the venture business is very open to women today. I I know there's been a lot of controversy about how many what percentage in in this business are women, but I don't think that should stand in any woman's way who wants to get into the financial world or venture in particular. It's a very open, and also from a standpoint of startup. And it does help to have a woman partner. Yes. Well, that's amazing.

[15:04]Zibby Owens: And you actually, you know, you talk throughout the book about all these different things you, again, have and haven't invested in, most famously, which I think many people know you for, was one of the first investors in Apple. And you said that had you not sold it when you did, it would your investment would be worth $7,500,000,000,

[15:22]Alan J. Patricof: which is crazy amazing. I mean, oh my gosh. And, you know, I wrote that book on and off over two years, and I had someone in the office create a formula for the computation based on what the price was. I have no idea what it is this week, but it was changing all throughout the two years at which I did this. Wrote this book interestingly on a yellow pad, sorry to say not on a computer, a yellow line pad that had it transcribed and then retranscribed. And so it went through several iterations to get where it was. And it was a fun experience. I wrote it, I'm saying a lot more than I would normally say. I wrote it not to be too long. It's actually about two thirty pages. I designed it so that someone could take it with them on a plane to California and finish it by the time they got there. And they could leave it in their hotel room or in their seat in the airplane and not have to lug around a 500 page book with them wherever they went.

[16:22]Zibby Owens: Well, I I actually read it on a very traffic filled drive from the Hamptons. So there you go. The whole thing. Oh,

[16:28]Alan J. Patricof: that proves it. I mean, that you did it. You're a fast reader. I mean, I'm a fast reader. Yeah. Unless I'm read really unless you had a four hour trip from the Hamptons.

[16:37]Zibby Owens: We did. We actually did have a four hour trip last weekend, but anyway, I won't get into that. But, yes, I read really quickly. But, yeah, but it also goes really quickly. I mean, it's really interesting, and you wanna just keep turning the page. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to quints. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with Ethical Factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibi.

[19:31]Zibby Owens: But one of the things that's unique or consistent rather about all of your investments is these new ways of reaching people and communication and doing things. And I found it really interesting when you started investing more lately in the podcast space, which you talk about towards the end of the book. So help me more about it, even maybe where you see this whole thing playing. And as a podcaster, you know, I'm very I'm very interested in your thoughts on this. Well, I have been an active investor in the media business for,

[20:01]Alan J. Patricof: since day one. I mean, going back to when I was a founder of New York Magazine. I was not the creative genius behind it. That was Clay Felker. And I was not the publisher. It was a guy named George Hirsch, by the way, who's chairman of the New York Roadrunners, who's my key, I hope, to getting into the We're next still friends. And I invested in Texas Monthly and Scientific American. And then in Greycroft, I went into the Huffington. I'm sorry, before that I went into Audible. I was the first investor in Audible. And I was actually at a dinner, a Pan American dinner two nights ago to honor Don Katz, who was the founder of I was there. I was there for that. Yeah, I was there. I didn't see you, but I was there and Don, I must say, greeted me in a very friendly fashion because we go way back to the beginning. He's just as determined an entrepreneur today as he was the day I met him in 1996 or something. But I did the Huffington Post, and I've gone recently into Axios and the SCIM. And as part of that, I actually got in touch with a fellow named Hernan Lopez, who had started Wondery. And he had gone to our California office and gotten turned down the year before because it was too early. And he came to see me because he was in New York one day, he's from LA. And I got intrigued with him from a creative content basis and where I saw it was going and got very much behind Wondery, which is probably to this day, probably the most successful podcast investment or podcast company. Gimlet looked like it was, but it'd be worth, but I think Wondery even surpassed them. We sold that just a year ago to Amazon. And that started my interest in it, and I've invested in about eight or 10 technology related companies. And recently have invested in two content companies. In fact, I went to a board meeting of one just yesterday called Sonoro, which is focused on the Spanish and Spanglish with major focus on LatAm. And then I invested in another company, which I think you must know, Lemonada. Don't know if you know Jennifer and what they're doing, but they're building, I'd say, a more women related content company. But I've gone into several companies that have been already sold because people are looking for technology. We've got a lot more buyers now in this area. You've Apple, you've got Spotify, you've got Amazon, you've got iHeart. Everybody has recognized that voice is a very strong new media. I have to say honestly, at the same time, is not on the top list of investors as an area where they're gonna make their next billion dollar company. We haven't seen too many exits in that level. But I think everyone thought radio was out of date, and all of a sudden podcasting came in, Audible is booming, And podcasting is, well, you're a perfect evidence. I mean, I'd heard so much about your podcast before I came on. And I'm doing the major marketing for my book is through podcasting. I mean, it's not book tours. I've done all kinds of podcasts for different markets, different audiences, not just the financial. I mean, I've done Anthony Scarabucci, but I also did Aliza Waxle's podcast, which is for parents. So there's interest in lots of areas for new content and creating content is a big opportunity.

[23:37]Zibby Owens: You're a perfect example of that. Well, maybe you should invest in whatever I'm doing, whatever that is. You're

[23:44]Alan J. Patricof: probably gonna have another chapter in your life, at least one, maybe a couple. Oh yeah, I've got a lot of plants.

[23:50]Zibby Owens: That's why I need those 114,

[23:53]Alan J. Patricof: I need to move the goalpost out to that and and that will make me feel better. All you have to do is say it. I heard a gerontologist give this speech about ten or fifteen years ago, and I liked what he said. And he gave you all the reasons why you don't live through 01/2014, many of which I fit. If you've had prostate cancer, if you had a hip replacement, if you had pneumonia, all those subtract. Forget about getting hit by a bicycle, that ends But it I said to myself, well, even though I have a lot of things to subtract, I like the idea of 114.

[24:27]Zibby Owens: So I decided I'd go for it. Maybe I should go further. I like the number 22. Maybe I'll head for 122. We'll see what happens. Honestly,

[24:35]Alan J. Patricof: I think if, I'm being serious now, if that gerontologist gave the speech today, I think he would say 01/2020. I think that was ten or fifteen years ago. And I just heard the other day, which I think is interesting, that the oldest person that they have record of who's lived is 01/2023. I think it was from Japan. But the oldest person living today is 01/2019, and it's in The United States. Someplace, maybe Virginia or some place in North Carolina. So we're gonna have a lot more people over 100 by 2030, I can guarantee you that. So someone's gotta figure out things to make them to avoid loneliness, lose longevity, to live healthily, to be bent over on walkers.

[25:26]Zibby Owens: Yes. Through this podcast, I've met so many people who have started riding later in life. They start and they feel like they've missed the boat, like they're doing it too late. And I'm like, actually, this is the perfect time. And I've had people who are in their seventies, eighties. I mean, mean, I you, but you wrote this to sort of reflect more on your life. I mean, like, even novelists. Do you know what mean? Like, people have always wanted to write a book. And I think writing is the perfect thing to do as people get older. Right? I mean, I don't know. Absolutely. There's a fellow named Mike Clinton who was, I don't know, I think he was the

[25:59]Alan J. Patricof: publisher of Hearst Media, but definitely in the media business. He's just written a book called Roar, R O A R, which is all about the opportunities for people who are getting older and things they can do. People who've been in finance and all their life wanted to be a writer. Right. All the years they wanted to fly an airplane, learn how to fly an airplane. People going back to medical school at age 50. I mean, in a different life cycle today. And I think it gives lots of hope to people that and there are people who are bored and have been doing something for a long time and they love to do something different. I say, go do it.

[26:42]Zibby Owens: Yeah. Well, you better come up with a lot of companies to service this market because they'll be ready, especially after this podcast. Well, I hope so. I hope so. You you also, I mentioned this earlier, but you also wrote beautifully about the decline of your wife's health and how you fell in love with her to begin with. You spoke with such respect for who she was and your relationship and really detailed all the the the decline, really, and all the steps you took and trials and everything to try to prevent losing her. And it was just it was beautiful and poignant. And did you ever consider not including that? Or how did it feel to relive it and write about it? You asked me a very, honestly, you don't know, you really hit a very, very not soft

[27:29]Alan J. Patricof: point, but I originally I didn't think of including it. A friend of mine, Carlson, who's a leading writer of The Daily Beast now and used to be on Firing Lion New York Times, she said, You can't write a book without writing about Susan and your relationship with her and the whole Alzheimer's. And I said, what has got to do with the book? She said, has to do with your life and how it fit into everything else. And it would be helpful for people to understand it. So I honestly give Margaret Carlson the credit for encouraging me, and I am very happy that I did it. It was great to write it. I was afraid it would be too distracting. But the whole book, as you know, does not follow a sequence of from 19 such and such to 2,000 such and such. It goes from politics to classic cars to starting a company. And so the Alzheimer's, I got to know a lot about Alzheimer's and people with chronic diseases. And sadly, I honestly still believe that there is no solution on the horizon. And there are a lot of false hopes that are offered by drugs such as the Biogen drug, which does nothing for you. But I do think that exercise, keeping your mind stimulated, I guess, although I don't eat, I'm not a vegetarian or vegan, but not going to crazy excesses. I think it all contributes to it. But all of us will have some decline in memory and some decline in capability. But I think that Alzheimer's is an insidious disease, just like Parkinson's and lots of others. But I honestly believe I have no basis for it, that cancer will be cured to a large extent in my lifetime. Wonder, I mean, Alzheimer's is such a hard challenge to get to that blood brain barrier that a lot of smart people have tried. And I try to support some projects and we got to encourage the researchers and sooner or later, maybe something was going to happen, but nothing at the moment. Well, that's depressing because I really thought that like from the media, it seems like it's around the corner. It's not around the corner. No. It's false hopes.

[29:58]Zibby Owens: Well, there anything on that front? I know a number of people, and I'm sure lots of people listening are dealing with this in their lives in some way, shape or form, perhaps not with a spouse, perhaps with a parent or a grandparent or someone they love. Mean, there

[30:15]Alan J. Patricof: see a lot of, let's put it, we see a lot of companies at primetime who are trying to tell you they have ideas of how to prevent it or how to slow it down or how to deal with it or how to take care of people with it. And they're all well meaning. And I certainly, I mean, I'm not a technical or medical authority. I just don't see anything today. And all I think you can do is give loving care and attention. And you probably can slow it down by the things I've said. I don't think you can prevent it. But you see the first signs of it when someone, we all forget names and we all forget numbers, but you can see a persistency that's developing. You can see the early signs. And the things I mentioned are about all you can do at the moment. I mean, are a couple of drugs, Namenda and Aricept, it's the first thing they give to everybody. And I don't know, it really hasn't done very much. Take vitamins.

[31:19]Zibby Owens: Okay. I

[31:21]Alan J. Patricof: take a very, very, very well known Nobel Prize winner in the field of brain and problems of the brain has said to me the best thing to take, and I'm not promoting this, but I take it, everyone I talk to is a pill that's made by Mars of all people, the chocolate bar company, it's called CocoVia. And I take three of those a day. Susan did also. I don't know, maybe it gave her an extra month of life, I have no idea. But since these friends of mine are taking it, I decided I'd take it. I can't prove anything except that's the one thing I do every day to keep myself, hopefully my brain active, but I'm not recommending it. And they're these ugly big pills. That's the only thing

[32:17]Zibby Owens: I- Doctor. Well, maybe I'll check them out. I'll check them out. Well, I'm glad. I'm very glad personally as a reader that you included and as someone who who knew your wife for many years, not super well, but, you know, obviously, since we've all known each other for a long time, but just to hear you talk about it so yeah. Just so personally and even things that that I haven't read in other places, like how important it was to have her dressing fashionably the whole time and bringing her out to dinner parties and just not letting people forget her or write her away, like that you kept her out of the mainstream and, you know, never gave up. I just, you know, that's all we can hope for from a spouse, right? This is like everyone's dream that you will be treated with respect and like you are no matter what happens with you. So I don't know, found it very inspiring. And I

[33:09]Alan J. Patricof: also said to me, I didn't want my kids and grandchildren to be afraid of this. I mean, I think not to hide it from them, but to make them aware of that, they're a real person. When she passed away, everybody in the family was there. And I hope that will rub off a little bit in terms of how they deal with people who have these kinds of problems and not shun them, but understand that they're, you know, it's part of it's part of life. I let me add one thing. I wrote this book like you and I are having this conversation. I hope you caught that. It was not I'm not a writer. There's not going to be a follow-up novel. I wrote this like, you know, talking to someone and this stream of consciousness somewhat, which is how I like to give speeches or talk to people or, write in general. I'm glad you caught a lot of the essence that I was trying to get across. Oh, good. I'm so glad. Well, I'm delighted that Jamie thought to

[34:12]Zibby Owens: send me your book and do all the good stuff and that he is back in my life now because of his involvement with Kyle and Wildflower and everything. So it's just, I don't know, all these all these things. Then you learn something from a book and I don't know. It makes me feel like all very warm and fuzzy that the circle So sort of I

[34:33]Alan J. Patricof: see your mother all the time. Actually went to hear your father. I don't know if you know, but if he knew I was there, I went to hear him give his reading at Book Hampton when he was there a couple of years ago. And I ran into Christine the other day. So I mean, we will somehow keep in contact one way or another. Doctor. Yes.

[34:52]Zibby Owens: I'll see you around. All right. Well, you. No, thank you so much. Thanks for taking the time and thanks for coming on Moms Don't Read Books. Doctor. And thank you for inviting me. Doctor. My pleasure. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Have Time Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.