Richard Roper, WHEN WE WERE YOUNG
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[0:54]Richard Roper is the author of When We Were Young
[1:01]He is a non-fiction editor a headline an imprint of his shed UK
[1:05]He lives in London and is the author of something to live for welcome Richard
[1:10]Thank you so much for coming on mom's turn of time to read books to discuss when we were young a novel
[1:15]Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure
[1:17]Okay, can you please tell listeners what your book is about and what inspired you to write it? And I'm sorry these are those
[1:24]Questions you've probably answered a million times
[1:26]But I do think it's useful for listeners to hear and get a framework and then we can dive in
[1:30]No, no, it's it has to be done. Yes, the idea for the for the book came
[1:35]from a few years ago when I decided to go on holiday by myself in England and I wanted to do something
[1:44]vaguely adventurous that involved walking but I also have I love walking but I've got a terrible sense of direction
[1:50]so
[1:51]What the one idea that appealed to me was the idea of following something called the Thames path which is a walk
[1:58]That you can do from the source of the Thames River in England in Gloucestershire
[2:02]Which goes all the way from Gloucestershire right to the heart of London and I thought well
[2:07]If I can even I shouldn't be able to get lost by walking but I river
[2:13]The other time and I did it by myself for the most part
[2:16]But then I had a couple of friends come and join me
[2:19]Halfway along to Neil friend of mine and as with many conversations with my my friends 90% of it was
[2:27]Complete nonsense, but there was also something about I think
[2:32]Walking and being quite contemplative and out of our natural habitat which meant we sort of opened up a little bit to each other
[2:40]So and within that came lots of conversations about the fact that we turned this grand old age of 30 shockingly
[2:47]Which seemed it always seemed like it was a million years away, but there we were
[2:52]And we began sort of we talked about the fact
[2:55]It's the first time really you kind of reflect on a certain time of your life
[2:59]So we were talking about our our youth and how long ago it seemed that we were kind of kids
[3:05]mucking around and so
[3:07]The germ of an idea
[3:08]Started there really and what came from it is the book where the two main characters Theo and Joel
[3:15]Who've just turned 30 but a living wildly different lives and they it's when they were kids
[3:20]They when they were about 15 they'd made this promise to each other that when they turned 30
[3:25]They would whatever they were doing in their lives
[3:27]They would meet up and walk in terms of paths together from the start and assemble where they live all the way to London
[3:33]But something along the way has made them fall out fairly drastically
[3:37]So when Joel turns up on Theo's doorstep
[3:40]To get him to join up for this walk
[3:43]Theo really isn't having it because of something happened in their past and the book is about
[3:48]Exploring their friendship and this journey that they do eventually go on and
[3:53]Yeah, it's about whether they can kind of write past wrongs and it's really a kind of big journey into nostalgia
[4:01]I think that's his heart
[4:03]Well, I'm relieved that it was not inspired by your parents kicking you out of the shed on their property
[4:09]No, although I mean
[4:11]Yeah, I'm sure I did live at home for a fair few
[4:15]I'm sure that was always in the back of my mind
[4:19]So where you kicked out at some point you can be honest
[4:23]No, I wasn't I think there was probably an element of my dad's
[4:27]would occasionally drop into the conversation things like
[4:30]Well, we should ask you to stop paying rent soon
[4:33]And then I thought oh that can only be so funny for so long before that
[4:37]I'm going to get an answer under the bedroom door very formally dear Richard
[4:43]So luckily I got a job in London so this sort of decision was made for me that I
[4:49]And your job. So what did you start as an editor? How did so what happened after that?
[4:53]Yeah, so I started as an editorial assistant at a publishing house in London and
[4:59]Kind of learned how to be an editor. I was I was working and still do work in nonfiction. So I
[5:06]These days I work on a lot of
[5:08]memoirs and narrative nonfiction, but I sort of
[5:12]And I have to say I'd never I always feel quite guilty when I listen to interviews with with authors
[5:17]Fiction authors, but I talk about always having this dream since they were five to write this, you know
[5:22]The great epic novel and I I never really did partly because I just didn't think it was possible
[5:27]I didn't think I was the sort of person that could ever do that, but working in publishing
[5:31]I got to settle on side fiction editors and hear them pitching books and obviously I read more than I'd
[5:38]You know ever thought possible. I was just constantly
[5:41]Seeking out new books and so I just started sort of almost behind my own back do you know doodling
[5:48]In a way with new ideas and writing short stories and then
[5:53]The kind of the right and just grew from that until eventually I thought oh, I'm
[5:57]I'm 20,000 words into an novel here, and then it sort of
[6:00]Took off from there really. Wow. I mean you could definitely learn a lot from reading a lot of books
[6:05]Oh, yeah, I was just telling someone I just I actually have a memoir coming out soon
[6:09]And I was like well, I tried to just use like every trick of the trade that I could think of to make the pages turn as fast as possible
[6:16]There's not just one thing, but it's like once you've read enough books. It's like that's working. That's not working that always helps
[6:21]That doesn't help so you can't help but soak it up
[6:24]Yeah, I mean that is my
[6:26]If I ever get asked about
[6:28]Advice for for people trying to write books
[6:31]It's you know read is it the is number one at the top of the list because and I still
[6:36]Do it now if I'm having a bit of a slump in the middle of a
[6:38]Little of a book and I just can't I just feel a bit lost with it
[6:41]I take a week off
[6:43]The actual writing and just either go back to my favorite books or
[6:47]See what's you know exciting new ones come out and I the time I would have been writing
[6:51]I just sit down and
[6:53]Read and just get into those kind of rhythms. I think it just it helps you kind of as you say
[6:58]It's all those tricks of the trade which you can then put into practice when you're writing your own stuff
[7:02]So what are some of the go-to books that you turn to when you're feeling
[7:06]Stuck so my my favorite author is David Nichols who wrote one day and us which is a book
[7:13]I go back to a huge amount because it's sort of I think it's quite rare in in your life
[7:19]Where you find those books where you just assume that somehow it's been written for you that you've often to the universe
[7:26]Sort of recipe and then come back as this kind of fully formed the cage. God that's terrible metaphor, but
[7:34]Is really like someone has just written this you know exactly for you and it's sort of
[7:39]He's a very good writer about sort of I mean who knows why it appeals to me, but it's about you know kind of
[7:46]Beater males
[7:48]Listen to a lot of introspective indie music
[7:52]About their you know and there's always a love story at the heart of it and it's
[7:56]Whenever I'm writing I'm trying to
[7:58]You know to sort of emulate him and and he's reading my hero. So that his books us one day
[8:05]Yeah, I'm just that he is new on sweet sorrows one is fantastic as well
[8:09]So I'm always coming back to his books interesting
[8:11]So when you were writing this book you decided on alternating viewpoint structures. You could go back and forth very quickly
[8:18]Short chapters good trick of the trade
[8:21]Alternating viewpoints and you have two very different men so funny though
[8:25]I mean that it's like there is something about the British sense of humor that it no American can capture in a novel
[8:30]I don't know what it is
[8:31]But I don't know if you can get it just from living there or you have to be born there
[8:35]But it is this particular
[8:37]Dry wit that I find just so awesome. I love it
[8:41]So anyway, you totally nailed that like from the first page on right like you are in grossed in these
[8:47]Characters and sort of chuckling along with them as they go
[8:49]So what made you choose that format for telling the story? Oh, thank you. First of all about it
[8:54]I'm so I'm really pleased of anyone ever says it's funny because it's that's you know
[8:59]I am frustrated sitcom writer at heart. So I just it's lots of
[9:03]There were so many jokes and in there that it's just you know
[9:07]I will have it will have come into my head on a walk
[9:09]And I put it down on my phone and I'm always searching to try and kind of crowbar it in
[9:14]Rather than in my life. It well the alternating viewpoint actually in the first draft of the book
[9:19]It was purely from
[9:21]Theo's point of view
[9:23]And
[9:24]There just wasn't something working about it. There's a lot of there are some fairly sort of big revelations
[9:31]In the book and what I worked out from
[9:35]Reading the first draft back and that's slightly kind of deflated. Oh, no, it's not working at all moment is that
[9:41]What they needed to be lots of sort of dramatic irony of the of the reader not knowing what certain things until it
[9:48]It's a kind of revealed, but it also made it far more
[9:52]Interesting. I hope and it was easier to sort of raise the stakes when it was from both cats point of view. So
[10:00]both of them are in a very typically male way are concealing things from each other, partly because
[10:05]they just don't know how to talk about things that have any kind of sense of emotion about them.
[10:11]So it was actually a way of kind of helping from a dramatic one to be really to have it from
[10:17]both perspectives. But also, as you say, short chapters, I'm a big fan of short chapters. My
[10:23]tension span is absolutely zero. But I'm also, I just, I love those books where you see a scene
[10:30]from one person's view and then immediately it snaps into the into another perspective where
[10:35]you work out exactly what's going on from their perspective. So I'm lucky that I worked out,
[10:42]that was the kind of the thing that needed to fix it. And it's quite, I'm trying to write
[10:46]something new now and it's quite, and it's just from one person's perspective and it's quite
[10:50]tricky because I'm always wanting to go, oh, there's another category. I wonder what they think,
[10:54]but they just can't wear like that. So I'm pretty sure this, the new one will just be from
[10:58]from one perspective, but it was handy for when we were young to have it from both Theo and John.
[11:03]The interesting part, because I feel like most dual perspectives aren't always writing on the
[11:08]same scene. Like you go back and forth right there, like in the moment, which I think was really
[11:14]neat and different. Well, thanks. Yeah, I think it sort of, I mean, partly the fact that
[11:20]they are doing this journey together. So they're this long walk and they're both in completely
[11:25]different head spaces and almost trying to work out what the other, what the other person's thinking.
[11:31]And I'm always slightly obsessed with if you when you're with friends and you look back at a certain
[11:36]moment, you know, a party or whatever it is and you have completely different memories of it. And
[11:41]you obviously go coming out of it from a different perspective. And I think, I mean, it obviously
[11:47]drove me slightly insane when I was writing because I was trying to keep there sort of, you know,
[11:51]certain amount of continuity there and keep the story moving while also having reflect on what
[11:56]just happened. And but it was quite fun where you know that both of them aren't really telling the
[12:01]truth. And you, you know, as soon as you as the reader knows something that one of the characters
[12:07]doesn't, then that it's quite, it's a helpful device to then to be able to, someone can give
[12:12]someone a look and it means a whole lot more because we know exactly what the other character is
[12:16]expecting from them. Interesting. And tell me about writing a character who's in a wheelchair
[12:23]and what it's like for Alice and her life. And, you know, even the idea that she was getting so
[12:28]buff from being in the chair that she could like squash her brother. Tell me about about writing
[12:33]her. I'm like seeing this as a movie and like casting the person in a wheelchair and using that
[12:38]really unique point of view. Yeah, I think, I mean, it's the sort of, I mean, the character,
[12:46]this is theo sister Alice who plays a very, very integral part in the book and that she is the
[12:52]person that really kind of spurs theo on. She's very much kind of, she's been through an
[12:58]horrendous accident, which is left in a wheelchair and she is trying to, she is someone who's
[13:04]been through a lot that has to certainly come to terms with it and is someone who kind of
[13:12]at the heart of it has, it's obviously a massive cliche to say that when you've been doing
[13:16]something really bad, you then begin to kind of appreciate life more. I know that's a very easy way
[13:22]of saying it and I'm lucky that I've not been in that situation, but she, I always wanted to be
[13:26]someone who was incredibly strong and had had a horrible moment in her life, but with someone who
[13:32]was really taking, you know, kind of life by the scruff of the neck and in his keen to do that
[13:37]with Theo who has lived to a certain extent, a fairly jammed life, but is kind of held back by his,
[13:45]his own kind of obsession with the past and not being able to move forward from that. And so
[13:51]I just wanted her to be this, this character who had suffered something, but it wasn't holding it
[13:57]back and the house of it. She is the one driving kind of everyone forward and it's tricky to talk
[14:02]about anymore without giving away spoilers, I suppose, but I did want her to have this, yeah, this real
[14:08]kind of verb and zest for life and to setting some of their counterparts, Theo who is, you know, can
[14:14]get quite stuck in certain ways and she was always going to be there to, you know, to try and get
[14:19]him out of his slump. Tell me more about this new book you're writing from one perspective. What else
[14:23]can you say about it? Well, it's, I will give you the sort of the inspiration for it. It's very
[14:30]early days, but the inspiration for it came where on one of the first trips away, I did out of
[14:36]whatever lockdown we were in at the time. So it was sort of felt very new to be getting on a train
[14:41]and going anywhere. And I was in York and I was listening to in kind of classic writer modes,
[14:48]just eavesdropping around everyone who I was in a restaurant at the time. I was just listening
[14:54]conversations going on on other tables and there was this huge drama that happened where a couple
[14:58]were complaining to the waiters about something, some trivial thing that happened with their
[15:04]food. And I was just watching this conversation go back where I could see the waiters going back
[15:08]to their little back room and talking with each other and then coming out and talking to this
[15:11]couple who then fired some new complaints at them in a very polite British way. And I got kind of
[15:16]obsessed by the idea of because I just knew that what was going to happen was this was going to
[15:20]end up on TripAdvisor or one of those websites where someone leaves reviews. And I just got
[15:26]obsessed with it and sure enough the next day, this incredibly long review appeared
[15:31]mentioning all sorts of things like the weights and measures act of the UK and
[15:36]I'm not going to do this. So I just thought there was an idea here in someone who runs in
[15:43]establishment of some sort who finds themselves getting these reviews. And I'll kind of leave it there
[15:49]but that was the germ of the idea and he ends up seeing a review from someone who's not
[15:54]seen in for a very long time. And then much like when we were young, a kind of a quest into use
[16:00]where he is trying to kind of go on an adventure of his own to try out this person down and work
[16:06]out why they're left in this review. Interesting. I have literally never left a restaurant review.
[16:11]Have you? No. I mean, I think the thing I find it fascinating is that the vast majority are either
[16:18]five stars, say this is the greatest meal I've ever eaten or one star saying you've
[16:22]run my life and I will never eat food again. And I just, I mean, it's my favorite thing to do
[16:28]now because I can call it research for the book. But if you go on, if you look at a TripAdvisor
[16:32]review, save for the Eiffel Tower or something and you'll just get, you know, all one star reviews
[16:37]is just going, well, it's just rubbish. It's not as tall as I thought or it's, you know, it was raining
[16:42]that day. So one star and I just want to know everything about that person. I want to
[16:47]shadow them day, see what their lives like. It's just extraordinary. Oh my gosh. The only
[16:52]review is I really pay attention to her and places like Goodreads or something and somebody
[16:57]had left a two star review recently on something. And I was like, I kind of want to write this person
[17:01]and be like, I don't, did you hit the wrong thing? Because everything you said was really nice.
[17:07]But then you put two like, maybe you got it backwards. Like, could I reach out? Like, yeah.
[17:11]Oh, I definitely, in for my first book, I think I had a, well, I had a one star review and obviously
[17:17]I sort of my heart sank and then I looked at it. And it was clearly someone who, as you say,
[17:22]it just got it because it was a brilliant review. I was very, very, very nice thing. But
[17:26]they, for some reason in this day and age hadn't worked out the very complicated star system.
[17:32]So I then thought, I'm not going to try and get in contact with them. And then it turns into,
[17:35]I become a stalker at that point outside the house going, can I just talk to you?
[17:40]To review life. I know only 400 miles away, but I just had to come and see you in a
[17:44]game. Yeah. Yeah. By yourself, Matt, to the reviews.
[17:48]Actually, we kind of funny if, if like all authors took like a moment to post a video,
[17:54]maybe like one, like review day or something like hashtag five stars. And like all,
[18:00]everybody who's written a book goes on and says, okay, just to explain this a little better
[18:05]when you go on, it is very important to us that you click five. So here's how you do it. And we
[18:11]do like a share screen. And like everybody shares the video, maybe it would help with reviews.
[18:16]Yes. If we all clap together and then we can do, we can sort of do on a billboard, maybe
[18:20]Times Square or something. Yes. When that be so funny, help authors and then just like five stars
[18:27]in a row. Save publishing, which authors memoirs have you worked on and nonfiction stuff? Like
[18:34]who are some of your authors? I work on it. I've got a very, it's a very British focused list,
[18:39]I suppose, so I work with lots of comedians as a comedian called James A. Kaster, who I feel
[18:44]is possibly starting to get a bit of a profile in in the US. He's been on the South Myers show
[18:50]at least once when he's coming on again soon. And lots of musicians, I'm publishing a book
[18:55]by Dave Davis, who's the guitarist in the kinks. And then I tend to do lots of, yeah,
[19:02]some slightly quirky narrative nonfiction. I've just published a book called A Tomb of the View,
[19:07]which is by Peter Ross, a man who has a fascination and strange that sounds with graveyards and
[19:13]just different kind of burial sites. So he's written a genuinely fascinating, very moving book
[19:19]about all the different kind of weird and wonderful places in the UK where people have been
[19:24]buried and humanist funerals and all sorts of things. That's a great title. Yeah, it's
[19:28]fantastic. I mean, I was sold there. Great time. Yeah. So it's an eclectic list of stuff that I do.
[19:33]Interesting. Love it. And when you're not editing and writing, like, what do you like to do? Do
[19:39]you run? Like, do you, are you on teams? Like, oh, great question. I mean, I'm obsessed with comedy,
[19:45]so I go to loads of, I mean, that's kind of, I've managed to fork out this career of being an
[19:51]editor of, of comedian's books. And it's largely just because I'm sort of some obsessive that I
[19:56]sometimes kind of, it's like, is this work? Because this is, you know, what I would be-
[20:00]you could pay me to do this,
[20:01]because it's a huge amount of fun.
[20:03]So yeah, I mean, good running.
[20:06]I've never really got to the point with exercise
[20:08]where, you know, people sort of say,
[20:10]oh, I guess there's addictive as drugs,
[20:11]the rush of endorphins,
[20:13]but I never really got past where I want to cry
[20:17]and have a lie down.
[20:18]So every single, I mean,
[20:20]I'm such a classic news resolution, you know,
[20:23]today I'm gonna get up at five
[20:24]and, you know, have that kind of rocky montage,
[20:27]drink six raw eggs and then run 20 miles,
[20:30]but I just have a cup of tea and I sit down
[20:32]and it's much, much better.
[20:34]You should.
[20:36]I just did an event with Gretchen Rubin
[20:38]who wrote a book called The Four Tendencies,
[20:40]and you should go online,
[20:42]because I just gave, I have four kids
[20:43]and I gave all my kids this quiz this morning
[20:46]because I was convinced that each kid of mine
[20:48]has a different one of the four tendencies,
[20:49]which is why it's like impossible to parent,
[20:51]and I was right, by the way.
[20:52]But in the quiz, it's all about like,
[20:54]New Year's resolutions and what is your instinct?
[20:56]And do you need accountability?
[20:58]And anyway, it's called like quiz dot Gretchen Rubin dot com.
[21:02]Anyway, go and check it out.
[21:04]And I have, I have a suspicion I know
[21:05]which category you fall in.
[21:07]Just say it really, I'll have a look
[21:09]and then we'll compare notes.
[21:10]Yeah, we'll compare notes,
[21:11]but I relate to this category.
[21:12]So anyway, it also like took somehow all the guilt off
[21:17]of my lack of follow through for some things.
[21:20]It's put it into context.
[21:22]I feel like I get it now
[21:23]and why it's much easier to sit here at my desk.
[21:27]Okay, interesting, I'll have a look.
[21:29]Yeah, anyway.
[21:30]Okay, well, sorry to recommend somebody else's site.
[21:33]That's a lot.
[21:34]It is a really fun quiz.
[21:35]I'm obsessed with stuff like that.
[21:36]So anyway, thank you for coming on.
[21:38]This is really fun.
[21:39]And I'll think of you the next time I'm not working out.
[21:41]Hey, exciting, thanks for having me.
[21:44]All right, take care.
[21:45]Yeah, it's the key.
[21:46]Okay, bye.
[21:46]Bye.
[21:48]Thanks for listening to this episode
[21:50]of moms don't have time to read books.
[21:51]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[21:54]at Zebioans and at moms don't have time to read books.
[21:57]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com
[21:59]and sign up for my virtual book club
[22:01]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[22:03]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[22:05]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[22:07]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[22:09]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.