Leah Witman Moore, LOVING YOU BIG: One family embracing the unexpected
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now
[0:07]Thank you so much. Called moms. Don't have time to read books
[0:10]It is a daily podcast
[0:12]365 days a year and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career
[0:18]Their book their life and more in 30 minutes or less because who has time?
[0:22]I am now an author myself
[0:24]Although I wasn't when I started this podcast and you can get my new memoir book ends
[0:29]A memoir of love loss and literature wherever books are sold starting July 1st and my children's book princess charming
[0:36]You can learn more about me at zimby Owens.com
[0:39]But really you're here to learn more about the authors and that is what we're going to do
[0:43]Also, be sure to check out all the other podcasts in the zcast podcast network
[0:49]You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com and definitely check out those shows as well
[0:54]Leah Whitman Moore is the author of Loving You Big one family embracing the unexpected and
[1:03]She has been teaching English in theater for over 16 years and is a graduate of the University of Wisconsin with a master's in educational theater from New York University
[1:12]Leah was the recipient of the prestigious teacher of the year award presented to 10 New York City teachers annually
[1:18]She first premiered her writing on her parenting blog Loving You Big.com
[1:22]Which has an international audience in over 50 countries
[1:25]Her family has been featured in a documentary about Kree Dushat Kree Dushat
[1:30]I did take French for like a hundred years. Kree Dushat, a rare chromosomal disability
[1:36]She has been a guest on popular media outlets such as Forbes and ESPN working to create more stories centering around
[1:43]Individuals with disabilities. She has taught a Columbia teachers college
[1:47]Been a guest lecturer at Stanford Medical School Bard College and the Irma Bonbeque writing conference. Oh my gosh
[1:53]I love Irma Bonbeque's writing. She lives in New York with her husband three children and her daughter's collection of rainbow wigs
[2:00]Welcome. Yeah, thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to discuss loving you big and then we're one family embracing the unexpected
[2:09]Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. My kids by the way, love this cover
[2:14]They were like, what's that about? Was it good? And I was like, yeah, super good. And yeah, they just loved it
[2:20]So it'll be excited that I spoke to you today. You started off by
[2:24]Telling the reader that this is your experience with what was it like this particular rare
[2:30]Disorder that your daughter Jordan was based on was born with
[2:35]Look at Kree. Is that right?
[2:37]It's called Kree Dushat. Kree Dushat. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry
[2:41]And the Kree Dushat. Sorry to minimize and you
[2:45]Took us through your relationship and falling in love with your husband and that was so awesome
[2:50]And I'm like, how great that you went to your in-laws house before they were your in-laws
[2:54]And when you were just friends with your husband and told them like by the way
[2:57]I'm in love with your son and that it worked and like you eventually both fell in love and got married like that's the best story
[3:04]Wait even though
[3:07]It was a bold move, but it paid off actually today is our 14th wedding anniversary
[3:13]Happy anniversary. Awesome. Thank you
[3:15]So why don't you talk a little about the book and
[3:18]Also, so basically, I mean, I'm summarizing too, but you start from there
[3:22]You go through what happens when you realize tell tell listeners what they can expect with your book
[3:28]Absolutely sure
[3:29]So I have three kids and my oldest was born with this very rare disability called Kree Dushat
[3:36]Which I had never had to have any of twins, right?
[3:39]Yes
[3:40]Oh my gosh
[3:40]I love twin mom
[3:41]Which is exactly
[3:42]And
[3:45]The I thought sort of that would be where the chaos would begin an end
[3:50]And then we fast forwarded four years and had twin boys and they both had pretty significant medical needs
[3:56]We thought one had cancer. We thought the other one needed brain surgery and my husband and I are just sort of these
[4:03]Every day teachers and we were not prepared for any of this and
[4:08]I started writing as a way to
[4:11]Make sense of it all to sort of cope with these things that I didn't think I can handle as a mother and
[4:18]The book is broken up into three parts. So the beginning is how we became a family and who we are and the middle is
[4:25]That every day chaos of just what it means to be a family
[4:29]But have a family where two kids who have disabilities my children are all healthy
[4:34]But they do have very significant different needs and then the end was really about finding my voice
[4:40]There was so much about
[4:42]Disabilities that I had absorbed from society that I thought was something to be more and I thought it was something sad
[4:48]So it's really a celebration of changing a lot of those ideas and
[4:54]making the world's
[4:56]Better for my kids and my students
[4:58]So that's kind of the journey, but it's written. It was the book that I wish existed
[5:05]Because I needed to talk to a friend
[5:06]They have all those books when you're about to have a baby
[5:08]Like what's gonna actually happen and I didn't feel like this book existed
[5:12]So I wrote it in a way super short chapters vignette so that people can manage it
[5:18]And that it sounds like you're talking to a friend who might also be there too
[5:23]That's so true, but it's not just like to I mean, it's very well crafted though
[5:28]I mean like you're beginning and ending senses and some of the passages here
[5:32]I did I did the like top of the page and bottom of the page
[5:36]Doug here
[5:37]Let me read a few things perhaps this is when your husband found out about his mom
[5:42]Which was also just gut wrenchingly devastated and his sister rang and she also had cognitive disabilities and high Amanda
[5:50]He smiled into the phone and then he wrote his face changed. It was not the face of an expectant father
[5:55]Which you are at the time
[5:56]He exhaled and his knees gave out as I screamed his name
[6:00]My mom
[6:00]He was on the ground in the middle of a sea of people outside Madison Square Garden
[6:04]We sat there on the sidewalk with his head against my stomach
[6:08]Rocking in grief until our friend came to drive us home
[6:11]Then you say later Zach and spoken to her less than 15 hours ago
[6:15]I could imagine her cradling the phone receiver long after they'd hung up smiling into the night sky
[6:20]She had probably let her dog Frodo out for one last evening run while she stood on the porch of her quiet country
[6:25]House Amanda was probably asleep inside the television still on when you went on for her
[6:30]And then she said all these things about her and then you just said she couldn't be dead
[6:34]This woman had been invincible a single mother and so on. You're I mean, I'm so sorry that this happened to you
[6:40]And you can feel that pain the way you wrote about it in that scene
[6:44]Tell me about that and even the experience of going back to that to write about it
[6:48]Yeah, so a lot of the book
[6:52]Has I like to say it she experienced what happened to us that happened within 24 hours after finding out that we would have our baby and that she would be okay
[7:02]And and then it became sort of my symbolic journey of balancing joy and sorrow at the exact same time
[7:11]Kind of for the rest of my life and I like to say because I'm a high school English teacher
[7:16]I always look for symbols and motifs wherever I go, but the passage your you just read actually
[7:24]took I had to go back and
[7:26]Do it again and again and again because it was so emotional and
[7:30]Actually a lot of the influence of listening to a lot of the authors you interview and the strategies they use helps me to
[7:37]Unearth the rest of the story
[7:38]Which was I did imagine what that must have been like for her to hear it
[7:42]She was having her first grandchild and that made it so much sadder and also that's the memory
[7:47]I hold on to now
[7:49]So I have perfected the art of holding my sorrow and trying to find
[7:53]Writing as a way to let it out. So the book actually ends up pretty awesome
[7:57]It's no small thing
[7:59]Yes, and you and your ability you continually see the positive
[8:04]Right you you have this I want to use the word effervescent even though it's not right in this context
[8:08]But that's how I feel. It's like you're like the bubbles on top of the drink and no matter
[8:13]You're like not letting it get you down to the bottom of the glass. Yeah, and there are definitely parts where
[8:19]It is down. I call it the dark woods. It's very Dante's inferno
[8:24]And I'm I'm lost and I've learned a lot of relying on we call them feelings teachers here in our house from
[8:31]People and I think what's been so rewarding about writing this book is how many people
[8:37]Who are in positions maybe like mine or maybe not just becoming a parent you never know what's going to happen
[8:43]And I'm able to say what a lot of them are just feeling in silence
[8:47]And then we don't feel so alone
[8:49]That that I needed the book to exist because I was so isolated
[8:52]I didn't feel like I had a community so I created the community. I needed with this
[8:58]Well, wait tell me more specifics about the outpouring of fellow
[9:03]There's and everything. I mean, it's as as I can tell you if you know creating a memoir
[9:10]It's super vulnerable to put yourself out there and
[9:13]What's funny is I'll be you know at the grocery store
[9:17]What's the neighborhood and someone like puts their hand to their chest like I'm so sorry
[9:21]Oh, okay, keep reading, you know, keep reading
[9:25]It's gonna get better and if I haven't caught up with someone for a while
[9:29]I don't feel like there's anything more I need to say because my entire life is now inside the book
[9:33]So I'm like, oh, you can just read the book
[9:35]But the best part of come from
[9:37]From strangers and my best compliment has been a student who said I never read anything you assigned us and I couldn't put this down
[9:46]Thank you so much
[9:48]But from other parents whether they have the same condition that my daughter has or
[9:53]They just happened upon the book just saying
[9:56]You gave us hope and a lot of the talk about
[10:00]implicit biases about disabilities and how they're seen in our society and how they're perpetuated
[10:05]in different texts and movies. And just people saying, thank you. I didn't realize I was holding
[10:10]onto that. And now I can reflect or check in on myself. So I think that's probably
[10:15]been some of the most rewarding takeaways. So what should people who have not read the book but
[10:20]want, but know they need a better attitude or a different perspective on disability and what it
[10:27]mean, like educate us. Yeah. Oh, okay. So you're a teacher. You wrote a book about it. Come on.
[10:36]So I would say specifically in the world of intellectual disabilities, there are these
[10:44]ideas that just continue, that people with disabilities are a burden or it's pitiable or it's so
[10:50]sad. And there's a lot of my heart breaks for you. I feel so sad when I think about your
[10:57]family. I wrote in the book. We got a condolence card when she was born. And I know people are
[11:02]coming with the right intention. I know people are trying to say, I don't know what it's like
[11:07]to be around a child who's nonverbal or maybe you won't be able to walk. But my particular child
[11:13]is probably one of the most joyful humans that have ever existed. She, I like to say she dances
[11:18]through the world and she teaches you how to slow down and really appreciate everything.
[11:24]So what I've learned are, I would say like three really simple tips, which is giving someone
[11:32]wait time. So seeing if you see somebody on the playground or if you're somebody's
[11:36]the grocery store that you don't have to finish their sentence, give them the space to finish
[11:40]what they want to say. Another thing that people do a lot is the up talk. We talk to people with
[11:45]intellectual disabilities kind of like their puppies or babies. And we don't know we're doing it.
[11:50]So that's a really nice one to just check your voice that you're not saying like, oh, hi.
[11:56]And somebody might be a 45 year old man. And then the last one is redirection. So if, if Jordan was
[12:02]here, she'd ask you who your celebrity crush was, you wouldn't, I don't know if you have one right
[12:06]now. I would have to think about that. Yeah, really hard question. She also asked for the president
[12:10]was when you were born. She really has some trivia questions. And then she'll ask you again and again
[12:19]and again, she's on a on a loop. So redirecting her and saying, well, you know, we just talked
[12:24]about that. And there's nothing to be afraid of when talking to her. It's just kind of meeting
[12:28]her where she is and moving from there. So I would say my biggest piece of advice is to
[12:37]do a little bit of an audit. Think about the way disabilities are being presented in the movies
[12:42]you're watching and the books that you're reading and are those ideas being perpetuated. And if
[12:48]they are start changing what stories you're taking in and then it might change some of your ideas.
[12:54]Interesting. Do you feel like there are any good role models in movies or books that you've seen
[12:58]about from this? I really loved the, oh, I'm spacing on the name. She's British actress and she's
[13:05]curly hair and she was the mom of a child with cerebral palsy. And I mean, many driver, it was the show
[13:13]and I thought it was done with such a beautiful sense of humor. And it was really authentic. It
[13:19]wasn't ignoring the fact that this child had cerebral palsy and also the person who played
[13:24]the child actually had cerebral palsy. So I loved that depiction. But I would say that's been
[13:29]my favorite. And, you know, I'm so tired. I can't remember the name of it. That's not it. It's my
[13:33]favorite. Google it. It's really good one. If they took it off the air though because it wasn't
[13:39]making enough money, which is also part of, you know, the way stories get told and how to get told
[13:45]is a money maker sometimes. Well, yeah, wait, tell me more about the writing of this book. I know
[13:51]you said, you know, short chapters and all that, you know, you wanted it to be like a not put
[13:55]denable type of easy theory. And it does feel very warm and inviting in your tone of welcoming
[14:03]in the reader. But tell me about the structure. Like, when did you do this? You have three little
[14:08]kids and you have a lot of space. Why go through with it? When did you do it? And how did you
[14:13]even like structure it? And when did you know it was a book for, you know, just like the whole thing?
[14:18]Yes. Okay. So I was teaching 9th grade English and we were doing personal narratives. And all of
[14:25]the examples I wanted to show them felt old. Suddenly, I'm really old and they don't know any of
[14:31]of my references, which is hardening. And I have always been a reader and I've been a secret writer,
[14:38]but I never, I was going to be on Broadway long before I was going to be a writer. And I,
[14:43]it was 11 o'clock at night. And I said, I just, I'm just going to write an example so that they
[14:48]get something authentic and I can model it. And I remember my husband saying, when do you have time
[14:54]to write this? And I was like, I'll just, I'll just bust it out. And I sat down and I wrote the piece
[14:59]which eventually became the beginning, which was the irony of having a child who may never have
[15:04]words and being a person who loves stories and being married to somebody and falling in love with
[15:09]them because of our love of storytelling. And it literally poured out of me in 15 minutes.
[15:15]And the next morning, I read it to my class and like ugly pride, like just sobbing. And I remember
[15:22]them like with me. She okay. I mean, we had just gotten to know each other. And I came home and I
[15:28]think I have a book in me. I think that there's just more stories that have to come out. So
[15:34]it was about eight years from start to finish. My boys didn't even exist when the book got started.
[15:39]And I mostly just wrote every moment that came to me. And then I laid them all on a dining room
[15:47]table and said, how do these stories fit together? And then I ultimately landed on the three part
[15:53]structure, which was meeting us and the middle chaos. And then which I call the ladybug warriors.
[15:59]So ladybugs eat away at what's ugly. So the beautiful can survive. And that was that last part.
[16:05]And my favorite part of the journey was about maybe three months before I thought it was over.
[16:12]I was in therapy. And my therapist said, I'm not sure you've come to terms with your daughter's
[16:18]diagnosis. And I said, oh no, I had to because I just wrote a book saying I did. So it definitely
[16:24]have to. And she's like, I don't think so. So I added about another 12 chapters, kind of being
[16:31]honest about that process. So it has like a gestational life of an elephant pretty much this book.
[16:37]Yeah. How do you manage the back and forth of your own brain and your own attention with the
[16:45]kids? I mean, I would ask this if anybody with multiple kids, but particularly when one or two
[16:51]have needs that surpass others or have more immediate, immediate needs that need to be
[16:56]tend to do or whatever. Like, how do you figure it out on a day to day basis? Or do you just take it
[17:02]as it comes? So you're perpetually tired and have decision fatigue, which I think all moms of
[17:09]multiple children do. But I have learned the art of the to-do list and chunking my time and asking
[17:16]for help, which I was not very good at for a very long time. So a lot of this used to happen once
[17:22]everybody was finally asleep. And then it wasn't necessarily my best work and my best working time,
[17:28]but it was the only time I had and first I'd finished grading Romeo and Julia papers and then I
[17:33]would start writing. And it made me resentful. It made me jealous of all the people that get to just
[17:39]write because it's all just stuck in there. So I started to come up with ways to talk to myself
[17:44]throughout the day and record a sentence here or try to post a note there. So that way when I did
[17:49]get that time to myself, it had already gotten me started so that I could finish the rest of the
[17:54]thought. But if I didn't ask for help, it would never get done. And that's just a good rule of
[18:01]parenting a child with a disability or being a person right now. I think in general.
[18:07]Do you don't ever find it hard to ask for help? I find it impossible to ask for help,
[18:11]but when I really frankly when my body started saying, I don't think you can do this by yourself,
[18:16]your hair starts falling out. I just couldn't keep up the pacing. I'm not a robot and I thought I was
[18:22]and it became easier to ask for help when my body gave me the physical science like you won't.
[18:27]You're not going to survive this if you keep trying to do it literally all by yourself.
[18:30]So who was the most? Who gave you the biggest opportunity to take the sigh of relief?
[18:37]That's a hard question. I mean, probably my husband would be number one because there were a
[18:44]lot of times I literally passed him like a diaper of a child and be like, I have a sentence.
[18:50]I thought of a sentence. Yeah, that's good. And then I really am very lucky that I have an
[18:55]incredible support system. So for example, I had COVID last week in a case of groceries showed
[19:02]up on my front porch, my friends in Canada. Like people know how to show up for us and it doesn't
[19:07]have to always be in person. But just remembering that again, I'm not alone and that there's a
[19:12]community is kind of what's been helping. So I love my support system. It's amazing. It's wonderful.
[19:19]It's good. We're all modeling for the rest of us. Yes. Do you find time to read?
[19:25]Yes. All the time. Well, I'm an avid fan of your podcast. And my favorite game is I read the book
[19:33]and then I wait to listen to the podcast until after I'm done. And then I take a walk and I
[19:39]listen to you. So I love it so much. And then I luckily before I fall asleep, I can always just
[19:48]deal time for having a book in my hand. And then also because of my job, I just need to keep
[19:53]reading to make sure I have what's relevant for the students. And so yes, I'm reading all the time.
[19:58]You may as well.
[20:00]So what what have you read this good lately? Oh, well, I just did the eight husbands of Evelyn
[20:09]Hugo, which I loved. And I am just about to start Ayana Mathis's 12 tribes of Hadi.
[20:18]And two days ago, I finished Nora, those off script. And I just listened and Annabelle is a fellow.
[20:25]She lives in my area. So I know her. So I'm very excited to listen to that one. That one felt
[20:31]perfect because I had COVID and I snuggled up with it. So those are the three in the most recent.
[20:37]I felt like my podcast with her. I was like, I had so many like specific questions. I remember
[20:42]I loved it. Like I don't think I did a very good job because I just was like honing in on what I was,
[20:47]I really wanted to know like maybe it wasn't broad enough. But no, I loved it because what's helpful for
[20:51]you to know is we're all listening with our own agendas, right? So we're coming in to enjoy the book,
[20:57]but also we love your writing journey. And you shared there. You're starting a fictional book
[21:01]and your memories about to come out. And so we love all that craft questions are on behalf of your
[21:07]audience. Okay, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I'm interested. I hope. I mean, I don't know, just
[21:12]as great. I did a whole load of laundry during that one. So oh, amazing. So great multitasking.
[21:18]I left the load of laundry and for the last, I don't even know how it was seven hours. I have to
[21:23]like give back and forgot to put it in the dryer for usual. But anyway, anyway, how do you think
[21:28]your kids will feel or this is impossible kind of to answer, but how will they feel about this book?
[21:34]Like is there anything you're worried about them eventually reading? Yes. I actually have been having
[21:40]a little bit of writing. I wouldn't say it's even writer's block because I have a million
[21:45]stories, but now the stories, my kids are older. And I don't know which stories are mine and
[21:50]which stories are theirs. Yep. How old are they? I don't know. So, so Jordan's 11, she's the one with
[21:56]the disability, the significant disability. And I'm not worried about misrepresenting her
[22:02]because I feel like part of my mission is that I love that own voices movement. And while
[22:08]Jordan can't tell her own story, I feel like a vehicle, which is why the book opens with her.
[22:12]sharing. But my boys are seven. And we're at the point. So in the first book, you know,
[22:20]they love to talk about their penises and that cracks them up. And everyone's favorite section
[22:25]is where my son is is more of a soul upset because this is a spoiler, but it's the best part.
[22:30]He's hysterically hysterically crying because it turns out he thinks my tushie is lonely because
[22:37]it doesn't have anything to talk to because his tushie gets to talk to his penis.
[22:41]And he is just inconsolable. And we have to call my sister, make sure her tushie isn't lonely.
[22:47]And it's adorable. And he was four. And it's very sweet. And as I was finishing it, I said,
[22:54]oh, I don't think maybe a six-year-old is going to want their name in this story. So I, you know,
[22:58]just wrote one of the twins instead of their name. So now I'm not sure what stories belong to them.
[23:04]And when I asked them, can I write this story? Now they say, yeah, of course, we think it's
[23:09]cooler in bookstores, but I don't think they'll think that when they're 14. So I don't know the
[23:15]answer to that. But I'll, yes, I'll find out. The next series is, what does it feel like to have a
[23:23]child with disability go through puberty? My daughter is very excited about her changing body
[23:29]and asks, like, what do I do with these? Oh, those, those are boobs. They just stay there.
[23:35]You know, there's a lot of things that we don't have books to read about. So we need to know more.
[23:39]Wow. Yeah. What advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[23:44]Well, for aspiring authors, it's the same advice I'd give my students, which is you are all
[23:49]writers. Everyone is a writer. And, and we, we look at the piece by Terry Tempest Williams,
[23:57]why I write. And only one of those very, very long lists of reasons is to make money.
[24:03]But yet, a lot of the students and the people that I've encountered think somehow writing
[24:08]has to be synonymous with a job. And I think writing is there's a story that you have to tell,
[24:14]and it deserves to be told, and we need more stories. And we need those stories to have different
[24:18]perspectives. So my advice to anyone listening, especially from a full-time teacher, who never thought
[24:23]they'd be a writer, is that there's something nagging at you, just get it out and see where it
[24:30]it takes you, because everyone is a writer. Hey, great. Everybody's got a story. Everybody's got a
[24:36]story. That's a story. And all interesting. Thank you so much, Leah. This has been so nice. And
[24:41]thank you for your patience. Well, we got to this date to record. Oh, yes. I really honor. Yeah, it's a
[24:48]beautiful story. And you're a great writer. So thank you so much. All right. Thank you so much.
[24:55]Take care. Take care. Bye. Bye.
[24:59]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[25:02]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[25:08]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of
[25:13]authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, texture sound for
[25:17]the sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[25:22]now trim music.