Pt. 1 - Neil deGrasse Tyson, STARRY MESSENGER: Cosmic Perspectives on Civilization
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now.
[0:07]Thank you so much. Called moms don't have time to read books.
[0:10]It is a daily podcast, 365 days a year, and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career,
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[0:58]This is part one of my interview with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, which might be the best interview I've ever done.
[1:04]I feel like I've learned the entire meaning of life at this point, and it was amazing.
[1:08]You definitely need to listen to both episodes, but you'll see I just couldn't stop asking him questions and all that.
[1:14]This is part one. Stay tuned for part two, and I hope you enjoy.
[1:19]I literally read this whole transcript out loud to Kyle before the episode came out because it's just that life-changing.
[1:26]So enjoy part one and stay tuned after this for part two.
[1:31]Neil DeGrasse Tyson is the author of Starry Messenger Cosmic Perspectives on Civilization.
[1:37]Neil DeGrasse Tyson is an astrophysicist and the author of the number one best-selling astrophysics for people in a hurry among other books.
[1:46]He is the director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History, where he has served since 1996.
[1:53]Dr. Tyson is also the host and co-founder of the Emmy-nominated popular podcast Star Talk, and it's been off Star Talk Sports Edition, which combines science, humor, and pop culture.
[2:05]He is a recipient of 21 honorary doctorates, the Public Welfare Medal from the National Academy of Sciences, and the Distinguished Public Service Medal from NASA.
[2:17]asteroid 13123 Tyson is named in his honor.
[2:22]He lives in New York City, and we were very lucky to have done this interview in person.
[2:27]Welcome, Dr. Tyson, AKA Neil, if I feel comfortable enough.
[2:32]Please call me Neil.
[2:34]Thank you for coming on Moms to have time to read books to discuss Starry Messenger Cosmic Perspectives on Civilization.
[2:41]By the way, I don't think anybody has time to read books, not just moms.
[2:47]Yeah, so I'm delighted about the concept that you will.
[2:52]I also am looking for someone at some point to host dads who don't have time to read books.
[2:57]Oh.
[2:58]What I wonder is do publishers like what you're doing?
[3:01]Because if you don't have time to read the book, they'll just listen to the podcast, and then they never have to buy the book.
[3:05]They do buy the book, though.
[3:07]Because what's all of the authors come on, they get to know the authors.
[3:12]And they're like, oh my gosh, that sounds really good.
[3:14]Oh, okay.
[3:15]All right.
[3:16]So let's see the other side of that.
[3:18]I did originally try to sell a book.
[3:20]Come on, send out time to read books, and nobody found that money.
[3:23]But I think I could try it now.
[3:25]All right.
[3:26]And then go over better.
[3:27]Okay, tell everyone about your book.
[3:28]What is this about?
[3:29]Why did you write this now?
[3:30]You're so accomplished.
[3:31]Why do this?
[3:32]Well, forgive me for making mom references.
[3:36]But this book was just stating within me.
[3:41]Please forgive me.
[3:42]Don't forgive me.
[3:44]I could just do.
[3:45]Okay.
[3:46]It was actually just stating within me my entire scientific life.
[3:52]I was an early science-thinking kid from middle school, even a little earlier.
[3:59]Just coming out of elementary school.
[4:01]And that's when I knew I wanted to study the universe and be at astrophysicist.
[4:05]So I had a response as early as age 11 to that annoying question that adults always ask kids, which is.
[4:14]What do you want to be?
[4:15]What do you want to be one that you grew up in?
[4:16]I would say astrophysicist.
[4:18]And you know, normally you say I'm be a, you know, engineer or lawyer.
[4:21]Oh, and Betty is a lawyer.
[4:23]I have Uncle Joe's or not.
[4:24]But no one knew any astrophysicist.
[4:26]So that was a pretty short conversation.
[4:28]My first astrophysicist.
[4:30]Okay.
[4:31]That'd be just not unlikely because there aren't many of us in the world.
[4:34]There's about actually numerically this, you know, maybe eight to 10,000 astrophysicists in the world.
[4:41]And we're passing through eight billion people.
[4:44]And so if you do the math, that's one in a million.
[4:47]So if you're in the same room with an astrophysicist ever at all, that's your chance to ask all the questions.
[4:53]Because you never know when that occasion will ever repeat.
[4:57]But early on, even as a kid, I just look around.
[5:01]and I see, like I see full grown people saying things and doing things that made no sense.
[5:08]It's like, what do you do?
[5:10]Don't you know how the earth works or how the sun?
[5:13]Have you thought about the statistics of this or the probability of this?
[5:17]Don't you know?
[5:19]And then I'd get older and it got worse and worse.
[5:22]You know, I visit Las Vegas.
[5:24]They're people at the roulette table.
[5:26]It hasn't been a seven in a while.
[5:28]It's due.
[5:29]No, it's not.
[5:30]Okay.
[5:31]No, it's not.
[5:33]Okay.
[5:34]And then I said, well, how come nobody knows this?
[5:36]And there's a big part of it.
[5:38]It's just, we're not taught probability and statistics.
[5:42]It's offered maybe as an elective, maybe.
[5:46]But so much of our lives are guided by what we think is true.
[5:51]What we want to be true.
[5:53]What we desire to be true.
[5:56]You buy a lottery ticket expecting to win.
[6:00]Okay.
[6:01]Expecting to win.
[6:02]Now there's only one, I think legitimate reason for buying a lottery ticket.
[6:06]Well, who might have judged other people's motives?
[6:08]So let me pull, let me take a half step back from that and say,
[6:12]you know you're not likely going to win.
[6:14]You understand this.
[6:15]Okay.
[6:16]So maybe they do understand it.
[6:18]But then there's the hope.
[6:20]Okay.
[6:21]So I met someone who each week should go through those brochures of real estate.
[6:27]They have beautiful homes on beaches.
[6:30]And nobody says, we love you.
[6:32]You got to love.
[6:33]You got to love those.
[6:35]And she said, she buys one lottery ticket each week.
[6:39]And as she looks through the brochure, she imagines what home she would buy.
[6:44]If she won the lottery.
[6:46]So this brings her some psychological, not so much comfort, but joy.
[6:55]Okay.
[6:56]Just thinking about that.
[6:57]So I couldn't, I can't take that away from her.
[7:00]Fine.
[7:01]We'll go with that.
[7:02]Okay.
[7:03]But you start taking a third of your paycheck and putting it in lottery tickets.
[7:07]It's like no.
[7:08]But that's just the probability and statistics side of it.
[7:11]Once I gathered all of this throughout my life, then I became, it was gestating.
[7:15]And then I became like fully pregnant with it.
[7:18]Again, forgive the uterine analogies here.
[7:20]But that's exactly what it felt like.
[7:22]And there I was sort of pregnant with this book.
[7:26]I said, okay, it's got to come out.
[7:28]It's time when it's got to come out.
[7:29]It's got to come out.
[7:31]And the entire book just came out of me.
[7:35]Written.
[7:36]I've been asked the question when in writing the book, what did you do when you had writers block?
[7:40]Or when you'd stumble?
[7:41]No.
[7:42]No.
[7:43]The whole book came out.
[7:45]And I would make fine tuning edits after.
[7:48]But the whole book came out all at once.
[7:51]And it's what civilization looks like when you're scientifically literate,
[7:57]especially when you have a cosmic perspective on it.
[8:01]So it breaks out into chapters rather naturally.
[8:05]So, but the subjects that we've all thought about and fought over,
[8:10]especially during Thanksgiving dinner, where people think they're saying the right thing
[8:15]and it's authentic and it's justified.
[8:18]Well, have you thought about it this other way?
[8:21]Have you seen your arguments and what they look like if you knew this other thing that's true?
[8:27]Often people are arguing when they're arguing over nothing.
[8:31]But they don't know it.
[8:32]They're arguing what they believe is real rather than on what is real.
[8:37]So there are chapters in there.
[8:39]There's one on truth and beauty.
[8:41]There's one on risk and reward.
[8:43]That's the one where we talk about probability.
[8:45]There's one on, here's one, meat eaters and vegetarians.
[8:49]They're always fighting with each other.
[8:51]Let me just jump in there, have a few things to say.
[8:54]I didn't get out.
[8:55]I'll go in the octagon, see if I can say some things to the warring parties.
[9:01]And then I'll give examples if you're interested in a moment,
[9:05]but I'm just giving it to the overview here.
[9:07]And there's a chapter on gender and identity.
[9:11]What that looks like when you're scientifically literate.
[9:14]Color and race.
[9:15]Yeah, I went there.
[9:16]Yeah.
[9:17]And a truth and beauty.
[9:19]Truth and beauty.
[9:20]Truth and beauty.
[9:21]And did I say truth and beauty yet?
[9:22]Yeah, I did.
[9:23]And on life and death.
[9:24]Well, another one, body and mind.
[9:26]So these are topics.
[9:27]You don't think of as astrophysics topics,
[9:29]but you may be interested to know what they look like
[9:34]if you are an astrophysicist.
[9:36]Yeah.
[9:37]And that's what this book is.
[9:38]It's a portal.
[9:40]It's a portal of understanding.
[9:43]So what an astrophysicist, like you say,
[9:46]about death.
[9:47]What was your, what's the like party line?
[9:49]It's life and death.
[9:50]Life and death is the chapter.
[9:53]And yeah.
[9:55]I don't know why I have to jump to the most.
[9:57]You can jump.
[9:58]That's the final chapter to life and death.
[10:00]Yeah, you can't begin with that. You got it. Okay. Okay. Okay. No, no, I don't go there now.
[10:03]You warm you up. No, no, no. Let's go. You, you did your show.
[10:07]I've been just two years. You're a show. Are you ready? Yes. Are you seated? I'm ready.
[10:12]Okay. So if you look at the human genome and look at how many possible humans,
[10:19]unique humans can be created from the genome. It's staggeringly large.
[10:27]I put in there one with 30 zeros, but it's even bigger than that. Okay. There's a calculation
[10:32]where you get 30 zeros, but most attempts to calculate this number are much larger than that.
[10:38]Now, how many humans have ever been born? We know that number. It's about 100 billion.
[10:45]So 100 billion is a staggeringly small fraction of the total humans who could ever be born.
[10:52]So for people out there, no matter your struggles, no matter your illnesses, no matter what hand,
[11:04]the genetic, a lot of delivered to you, you are alive against all odds. And this is a point made
[11:14]really brought home by Richard Dawkins, but I had to take it to another sort of cosmic notch,
[11:21]where you, you will die one day. And that death will conclude your life. And so unless you're
[11:29]of some religions who are certain, most religions are certain of everything the religion says. This
[11:34]was an interesting other fact. And you compare all the religions in the world and they don't really
[11:38]say the same thing about what is true. So that's an awkward situation. If you want to be
[11:45]religious in multiple ways, you can't really have to sort of pick one and just ascribe to that.
[11:50]But your few years on earth are precious for that reason because most people who could ever exist
[11:59]will never even be born. So your existence, no matter the state of your existence,
[12:08]you're among the lucky ones, extraordinarily lucky. Now, the people say I want to live forever.
[12:14]Really? Have you thought that through? Holding aside that if everyone lived forever, we actually
[12:20]have to stop the birth rate or find another planet to move to. Okay, so that we, the issue is there.
[12:27]But let's assume that's resolved in whatever way. Consider that if you live forever, then you always
[12:34]have tomorrow. So then what is your motivation for doing anything today? I assert that there's
[12:43]nothing more motivating to what you can and should do in life than the knowledge, the certain
[12:50]knowledge that you're going to die one day. And you just, and people think of death as a morbid
[12:55]subject, but let's look at a couple of examples. If your loved one brought you flowers and they
[13:03]were plastic, what would you think? You say they're not? I think go back to go back to the
[13:10]but wait a minute, but wait. The plastic flowers will last forever. They won't die. But deep down,
[13:17]you know that you value the flowers, not only because they're beautiful, but also because they die.
[13:26]And so you value that they're early before they open up and then they do open and then they
[13:30]have a fragrance. Yes, you have to care for them. You have to change the water and
[13:34]and sniff the stems. And so they're not carefree, but you will hold them and watch them through
[13:44]there. If I can use this word for flowers, senescence, okay, where they start turning and then they die.
[13:53]They have ran the natural course of their lives after having been cut. And that fact
[14:01]makes you appreciate them all the more. So in a sense then, it is death itself that gives meaning to life.
[14:14]Think of if you've owned a dog, it might be true for cats. I just know less about cats,
[14:18]but if you have dogs, you know, you are the hero in the dog's life. You come home from getting
[14:24]the male and the dog is jumping all over you and licking you in the face, okay? The dog is excited
[14:31]to just be around you. To no matter the time of day, then I'll say, I'm too sleepy. Come back
[14:37]later. You want to, let's go out. The least that sound of the leash, okay? The dog is on top of that
[14:44]for how long? Dog might live 12, 13, 14 years, 15 tops. So if you multiply that by seven,
[14:54]you get a human age for when we die, hence that famous formula, dog years, human years.
[15:01]So that got me thinking, maybe a dog knows this. A dog is alive for only one out of seven days
[15:10]that you're alive. You live an entire week. That equals a day in the life of a dog. Maybe the
[15:17]dog knows this. So the dog makes every day count in ways we might squander days in our weeks and
[15:28]in our months. And so for me, the dog is a reminder of how precious life is because no moment
[15:38]goes by without a dog just celebrating the fact that they're alive and not among those who have
[15:45]never been born. That's in, that's only part of the life and death chapter. So how does that motivate
[15:54]you? Every day. Now I was thinking less about death when I was a child. Children don't hardly ever
[15:59]think about death unless they see some scary program. And by the way, children don't so much
[16:06]fear death as much as they fear getting eaten. Think about this. Look at every fairy tale
[16:13]where the life of the child was put at risk. The risk was getting eaten by the witch
[16:21]or by the bear or by the fox or the wolves. The big, bad wolf, you know, little Red Riding Hood.
[16:30]It's always getting eaten. And in the early Star Wars films, almost everyone who died in the
[16:36]second film, I think it was the second of the ones that were made. They were eaten through these
[16:39]creatures that just would eat you. And so I think fear being eaten. And what's their favorite
[16:46]scary dinosaur? You've had it, kids. What's the favorite dinosaur? Oh, damn, of course.
[16:54]I'm totally putting you on the spot because I know there's a commonality to this sort of human
[17:01]perspective. And T-Rex will eat you. So kids respect T-Rex all the way. And what's their favorite
[17:09]object in the universe? Black holes. They'll eat you. Okay. But my point is, I didn't think of death
[17:15]as a child, but I thought the universe is so vast. And I don't have much time. I mean, how much
[17:21]time? I'm going to live 80 years perhaps. But back then, I was thinking maybe only 70, 75. But
[17:27]we've got all gotten healthier since then. And I'm that old to remember when that's I used to think
[17:32]that way. And there was so much to learn. I didn't want to delay the time I could take to learn
[17:39]about how the universe worked and the math necessary to speak in the language of the universe
[17:45]to commune with the cosmos as was my desire and ambition. And then I get older and then I have kids.
[17:55]And for me, the greatest kid wisdom was especially when they're younger and infants, basically through
[18:02]toddlerhood, while you have to prevent them from killing themselves. So basically zero through
[18:07]three or four that is watched at every second. Five, they can run up and down the house and you
[18:12]know, they're not going to do something completely stupid. So if your house is generally child
[18:17]proof, but over those early years, it's like this is never going to end and you don't get any sleep
[18:22]in your and you realize the days go by slowly, but the years go by quickly. And that's a peculiar
[18:33]concept to embrace. But in terms of one sense of time and how you use it, I want to make sure
[18:41]that maybe this is because I'm an academic fundamentally, but no reason why other people couldn't
[18:46]feel this way. If there's a day where you don't learn something, it's be kind of wasted that day.
[18:54]It kind of a little bit. There's a finite number of days you have left alive. Even though you
[19:00]don't know how many days there are, you know it's finite. Every day, every next sunset sunrise,
[19:06]I don't want to use this analogy. In this case, but it comes to mind, the prisoner in the jail cell,
[19:11]you put an X on the day. That's one less day for you. So it's a quote from Harsman, the educator
[19:19]was around early 1800s actually. We all know there's a Harsman school and we've heard the name,
[19:24]even if you don't know fully about the guy was an educator. At one point, I think head of a
[19:30]university and one of his last speeches to the students, he said, I beseech you to treasure this
[19:40]up in your hearts. Be ashamed to die until you've scored some victory for humanity.
[19:48]And so in a free society, there's no obligation to do that. You can just live your own life and
[19:55]help anyone. But, you know, I grew up in a pretty progressive household and you're always
[20:00]Thinking about the plight of others who could benefit from you,
[20:04]your time, your energy, your resources.
[20:06]And so fold it into, learn something every day,
[20:10]when I spend a little bit of your life
[20:13]lessening the suffering of others.
[20:15]And then the whole world is a little better off.
[20:18]And another piece of that is I don't ever
[20:22]want anyone to return a favor.
[20:26]If I do your favor, I'll return the favor on it.
[20:28]No, pass it forward.
[20:30]I don't need your favor back.
[20:32]OK?
[20:33]Just do a favor for someone else.
[20:34]Think about it.
[20:35]If someone returns the favor, it closes off.
[20:38]It stops the exchange of goodness
[20:42]that could be moving through the world.
[20:44]But if everyone passed it forward, then it spreads
[20:48]in a good way.
[20:49]It spreads virally in a good way.
[20:52]And so life and death, when you think of it scientifically,
[20:57]biologically, I think it brings focus to our lives.
[21:01]And on your deathbed, I don't want to regret not having
[21:04]learned more, not having loved more,
[21:07]not having cared more.
[21:11]I want to be content and say, my time has come, my life is done.
[21:16]Now you can ask, well, what happens after death?
[21:20]As a quote you to ask, that may be important.
[21:21]Maybe you kind of asked it.
[21:23]What happens after death?
[21:25]We know scientifically, OK?
[21:28]You have a certain energy in your body
[21:31]that's accumulated from the consumption of plants and animals
[21:36]throughout your life.
[21:38]If you're vegetarian, then it would be plants
[21:40]and possibly animal products, like milk and this sort of thing.
[21:45]But in any event, no matter whether you're
[21:49]a mediator or a vegetarian, you killed life forms to survive, OK?
[21:58]Every life form on earth does that except plants,
[22:01]because they get their energy from the sun.
[22:04]So everybody else says killing something in order to, OK,
[22:06]we get that.
[22:06]That's the great circle of life.
[22:08]We know the song from the lion king.
[22:11]So, well, why do we do that?
[22:13]Well, there's a calorie content of the food we eat.
[22:18]Calories is the exact word for energy.
[22:23]We use the word calorie, but it is energy, OK?
[22:27]How many calories does it have?
[22:28]Is the same question as how much energy does it have?
[22:31]You consume this.
[22:32]This builds your muscles and bones and tissues
[22:35]and enables you to move.
[22:37]But most importantly, it maintains your body temperature
[22:40]at 98.6 degrees, 37 degrees Celsius.
[22:43]It maintains that no matter what the temperature is outside,
[22:48]we're in a very comfortable room right now.
[22:49]It's maybe 72 degrees.
[22:52]You're at 98 degrees.
[22:54]Why don't you just cool down to the seventh?
[22:56]If you were food in here, there's 98 degrees,
[22:58]it'll cool down to 72 degrees and within an hour.
[23:01]You don't cool down.
[23:04]You have a furnace burning within you, a furnace,
[23:09]generating that energy so that your whole body
[23:11]can function in an environment that pleases it,
[23:14]which is a 98 degree vessel.
[23:17]So most energy you consume is in the service of maintaining
[23:21]your body temperature.
[23:23]That's why we eat constantly, morning, noon, and night.
[23:27]You know who doesn't eat constantly?
[23:29]Our cold blood and animals.
[23:31]They don't eat constantly.
[23:33]We like to think they do, because when we show crocodiles,
[23:35]they're always ravenously hungry and snakes
[23:38]always trying to take down a thing.
[23:40]But snake eats once a week, crocodile,
[23:43]depending on how much once a month.
[23:45]They're the same temperatures their environment.
[23:48]That's what cold blood it is, the same temperature.
[23:51]So they don't have to constantly consume energy
[23:55]to maintain their temperature.
[23:56]The point of all of this is the day you die,
[24:00]you no longer have a metabolism.
[24:02]So your body cools.
[24:03]It drops to what temperature?
[24:05]The temperature.
[24:06]The temperature is surrounding.
[24:07]It drops to room temperature.
[24:10]Now, if you touch my hand right now,
[24:11]you know what touching another human being feels like.
[24:15]You ever touch the hand and the casket?
[24:18]Or you don't touch bodies and you don't touch dead bodies?
[24:20]You don't touch dead bodies.
[24:22]All right, usually the hand is there
[24:24]because the hands are wrapped across the chest.
[24:26]And you touch a tried one day.
[24:28]The first thing people notice, it's a body's cold.
[24:32]Now, maybe the body just came out of the fridge,
[24:33]but usually if it's lying there for viewing,
[24:36]it's been there for at least a day or so.
[24:39]What you're noticing is not that it's cold.
[24:42]It's just not as warm as anybody you normally touch.
[24:45]It's room temperature.
[24:48]That's what you're noticing, okay.
[24:49]So in the active death, what happens?
[24:52]Well, we know, let's say you go out through a series
[24:54]of strokes, all right, little strokes
[24:57]that become bigger strokes.
[24:58]You can do neuroscience and you see a part of the brain
[25:01]drops out that lost oxygen, it's dead, basically.
[25:06]The person doesn't know language anymore.
[25:08]The person doesn't know who you are anymore.
[25:09]The person, the aspects of that person
[25:12]just begin to go away.
[25:14]So everyone who wants to believe that you are something more
[25:20]than what's going on electrochemically in your brain,
[25:23]okay, but it's pretty convincing evidence
[25:28]that your brain is everything that you are
[25:30]because as we see the brain disconnect,
[25:33]you start disappearing.
[25:35]Everything we know about you
[25:37]and it could happen another way,
[25:39]maybe you can lose your personality, your charm,
[25:42]all these pieces of you are happening electrochemically
[25:45]in your brain.
[25:47]And so on death scientifically, again,
[25:50]if you believe in souls and reincarnation and all this
[25:53]and a free society, no one is going to take that from you.
[25:56]But you asked me as a scientist, I can tell you
[25:59]that on death, you and everything we think of
[26:02]is you no longer exists.
[26:05]We know this intuitively when you go into a funeral parlor.
[26:08]It don't say, what room is Freddie in?
[26:11]You know what I say?
[26:11]What room is Fred's body?
[26:14]You've already given up on the idea
[26:19]that someone named Freddie exists, okay?
[26:24]So you go into a state of non-existence
[26:27]and you say, well, maybe, do I see my ancestors?
[26:30]Do I go to heaven or I guess Jews don't have a hell?
[26:34]But do I go somewhere where there's a, you know,
[26:37]and again, okay, but the evidence looks like
[26:41]you just simply don't exist.
[26:45]Now is that weird?
[26:46]No, it's not.
[26:47]There's no reason to think that your state of non-existence
[26:50]after death is any different from your state of non-existence
[26:55]before you were born.
[26:56]Before you were born, you weren't saying,
[26:57]where am I?
[26:58]How come I'm not any?
[26:59]Well, you're not having a conversation about not existing
[27:04]because you don't exist yet.
[27:06]So most of the history of civilization you didn't exist.
[27:10]You exist now for however many years we have left,
[27:14]then you enter another state of non-existence.
[27:17]So this is our portal into the reality of this universe
[27:23]and don't waste a single moment of it.
[27:27]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[27:29]Don't have time to read books.
[27:30]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[27:33]at Zibi Owens and at Moms.
[27:34]Don't have time to read books.
[27:35]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowans.com
[27:38]and sign up for my virtual book club
[27:40]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[27:42]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[27:44]in fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[27:46]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[27:48]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.