Sally Koslow, THE REAL MRS. TOBIAS: A Novel
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now
[0:07]Thank you so much. Called moms. Don't have time to read books
[0:10]It is a daily podcast
[0:12]365 days a year and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career
[0:18]Their book their life and more in 30 minutes or less because who has time?
[0:22]I am now an author myself
[0:24]Although I wasn't when I started this podcast and you can get my new memoir book ends
[0:29]A memoir of love loss and literature wherever books are sold starting July 1st and my children's book princess charming
[0:36]You can learn more about me at zibby Owens.com
[0:39]But really you're here to learn more about the authors and that is what we're going to do
[0:43]Also be sure to check out all the other podcasts in the zcast podcast network
[0:49]You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com and definitely check out those shows as well
[0:53]I hope you'll all check out the all-new zibby bag
[1:01]zibby and aji the literary lifestyle destination with essays book news a lit lifestyle feature and
[1:09]Even some classes check it out zibby mag.com
[1:13]Sally Coslo's episode about the real Mrs. Tobias is one of our guest hosted episodes as I've mentioned
[1:20]30 of the episodes over the next few months will be guest hosted by a crew of amazing other authors
[1:26]Podcasts and fabulous women. This one is being hosted by Alicia for Nanda's
[1:31]Miranda who is one of our zibby books authors and also hosts the podcast quit your day job
[1:36]So you will hear more about her own memoir my what if year?
[1:40]But now she is going to interview
[1:42]Sally Coslo the real Mrs. Tobias
[1:44]Sally is the author of the other side of paradise bringing to life f-scut Fitzgerald's passionate relationship with secretly Jewish
[1:51]Shayla Graham the widow waltz the late
[1:54]Lamented Molly marks and with friends like these and the non-fictional slatching toward adulthood her debut novel little pink slips
[2:01]Was inspired by her long career as the editor in chief of iconic McCall's magazine her books have been published in 14 countries
[2:08]Sally has written a hundred plus essays and articles for anthologies major magazines newspapers and websites
[2:13]lectured at the f-scut Fitzgerald society and to lose France as well as many colleges library synagogues women's groups and book clubs and has taught at
[2:21]the writing Institute of Sarah Lawrence college people often say she's the first person they've met from Fargo
[2:25]North Dakota and Sally also contributed to one of my anthologies
[2:30]All right. Well Sally welcome to mom's don't have time to read books. We are so excited to have you here today to talk about the real
[2:38]Mrs. Tobias
[2:39]Well, I'm very very very excited to be here. Thanks Alicia. I said yesterday was launch day for you. How are you feeling?
[2:47]I feel excited happy, you know, it's nice to make something from nothing
[2:52]It's pretty incredible especially this particular book
[2:55]So this is the first of your books that I had the good fortune to read it certainly won't be the last
[3:00]But I just loved the family saga. I thought it was so
[3:04]Character rich and it made me think about about the sacrifices that we make for the people that we love the ones that we know
[3:10]We make and that we make consciously and maybe some of the unconscious ones. So I really really enjoyed it
[3:16]But maybe they well you're welcome. Maybe you can start out by telling our listeners a little bit about what the real
[3:24]Mrs. Tobias is about
[3:27]The real Mrs. Tobias is a
[3:29]Basically it's a family saga. Those are my favorite kind of book
[3:34]But what makes it different and
[3:36]Possibly unique. I'm not going to say it's the only book of this sort
[3:40]But I haven't run across another one like it
[3:42]Is that the family saga is told through the point of view of three women who've married into the family
[3:48]So the a matriarch her name is Veronica. She's 74 years old. She's a psycho therapist and analyst
[3:55]She lives in New York. She's a Holocaust survivor
[3:58]She was a hidden child. She was not old enough
[4:01]You know to be in the camps herself
[4:04]Then there is her daughter-in-law her name is Melanie. She goes by Mel
[4:08]She's a therapist who's got an MSW degree
[4:11]She's married to the son of of Veronica
[4:15]Mel has a daughter-in-law herself. So Mel is both a mother-in-law and daughter-in-law
[4:22]and as I am actually in real life
[4:26]And her daughter-in-law is named birdie. She's from Iowa
[4:29]And she met Micah who was the son of Mel
[4:33]And they had a whirlwind romance and they got married and she moved to New York
[4:37]And it all happened when she was very young
[4:39]All three of these women got married very young. So we have three generations 74
[4:44]Early 40s in some and there are 20 years of part each one
[4:48]Someone who's in her 20. I
[4:50]Love that you focused on that mother-in-law daughter-in-law relationship because I don't think a lot of people focus on it
[4:56]And it is really really unique this idea that you kind of marry into a family
[5:01]And you're supposed to love them and treat them as your family
[5:03]But you know, they're they're not the family you grew up with what made you want to write about this particular relationship
[5:10]Oh, well, that's an easy question for me to answer because I was completely inspired by my own life
[5:15]And this one because I have had a dynamic
[5:18]Formingable mother-in-law for a long time. She's
[5:23]My my own mother died quite a few years ago
[5:26]And my mother-in-law is
[5:28]98 and absolutely with it
[5:32]You know very informed on politics and other current events and just
[5:37]Just least a new car
[5:39]Which she drives very ably and
[5:41]Oh my god
[5:44]Amazing bridge player and you know very sharp women cares a lot about replenishing her more grow to use her phrase
[5:51]So and because a number of years ago
[5:55]I have two sons. They both married which made me a mother-in-law
[5:59]It made me think about the role a little bit differently than I ever had and rather
[6:04]You know resent that it that there seems to be a previous position to dislike your mother-in-law
[6:10]And it made me think how important and interesting these relationships are and challenging
[6:16]So because I like family service a great deal and every book I've written except possibly the first
[6:22]I has been about bonds between people
[6:26]I decided that I'll explore this one
[6:29]And that's why it's so cool. Have your daughters-in-law and mother-in-law read this book
[6:34]Yes, all three have read it and my mother-in-law said she cried when she read
[6:39]The authors know because that gave her the background that I told you and that she
[6:44]Enjoyed the book and like the book and she had more comments to it. She wasn't going to share them with me and
[6:52]And one of my two daughters-in-law read and said she just loved it
[6:58]The other one I haven't heard from
[7:00]But in all fairness, she's just made a huge move in her life from Santa Monica to Paris with my son just two children
[7:08]So she's been a little bit busy and we're still in speaking terms. I'm not few
[7:16]She's and no one in this book is at the clone in any
[7:20]way shape or form of my own family they accept the fact that
[7:26]They're both daughter-in-law's and I have mother-in-law they're completely new fictionalized characters obviously
[7:33]But it it is I still you know
[7:36]Very sensitive to their response. I think that's not I'm sure she liked it and she just doesn't at time to tell you
[7:43]That's probably what it is, but um the other relationship actually
[7:46]I thought that you dove into a lot was the between kind of grandmothers and granddaughters and how the grandparent
[7:52]Relationship is so different from the parental relationship which is something I think about a lot watching my parents or my kids
[7:59]I have 10-year-old twins so they're now old enough that they really have a you know
[8:04]relationship with with my parents and it's very different from my relationship with my parents
[8:09]And they treat them very differently and they're very different with them. Why did you why do you think that is like?
[8:15]What's your hot take on being a grandmother since you are one and you know
[8:19]Why did you decide to also bring that out in this book? Well first of all my favorite character in the book
[8:25]Even though she's a minor character is the grandma from Iowa who's the kind of woman who keeps jumper and hair
[8:32]And when so's her own clothes and you know it's like so capable like a capable woman totally
[8:39]I love that that woman. It had a good sense of humor also
[8:43]I grew up far away from grandparents. I was raised in Fargo, North Dakota and my grandparents
[8:49]My closest one had a grandmother in St. Paul in Minnesota, which was only 250 miles away
[8:54]But I didn't really see her that much
[8:56]It was a different time and I had a grandfather in New York for my father's father
[9:01]I'm not even sure if he would have known my name, you know because there was no zooming and
[9:07]Was you know video conferencing was if you were far away
[9:11]You're far away. I think I met him twice in my life
[9:14]So when when my oldest son announced this is before he was married
[9:19]That guess what we have a baby on the way. I was just completely
[9:24]Flummox because I had never seen myself as a grandmother
[9:27]I just had I have it a few friends who were really craving to have grandchildren
[9:32]But I was just never in that category
[9:34]Very fulfilling job and my life was full and I never really thought there was anything missing
[9:39]I certainly didn't think that I didn't have too many friends who a grandmothers yet
[9:44]I was completely gobsmacked by
[9:47]How interesting wonderful it is to have a grandchild
[9:50]You sort of step back and look at a child grow up in a way that's different than being a parent because
[9:55]And you're not in it every single style every second and I my oldest grandchild
[10:00]I was 10 years old, now I'm really intellectually curious, funny, clever, creative boy.
[10:07]And I'm so close to him.
[10:09]And so I think that, and also my children really benefited from a wonderful relationship
[10:15]with my father, my mother-in-board channel, he came quite ill, but my dad and my husband's
[10:21]mother, who was also my mother-in-law, their grandmother, and they're still very close
[10:26]to her.
[10:27]And she's managed to maintain an important, interesting relationship with a whole slew
[10:32]of grandchildren and now some great grandchildren.
[10:35]So I felt it was a very important relationship to bring in.
[10:38]And then the character Mel in the book is very attached to her one granddaughter Alice.
[10:46]And what happens in Alice's life has a major effect on Mel.
[10:50]I don't want to get way too much, but-
[10:52]No spoilers, no spoilers.
[10:53]They have a beautiful relationship, yeah.
[10:56]We don't know, we don't know Alice's side of it, because we never in Alice's head,
[11:00]but from Alice's point of view, it's a-
[11:02]That's true.
[11:03]One-sided.
[11:04]One-sided.
[11:05]One-sided.
[11:06]So like Birdie and Mel, you're a New York transplant, and New York features very prominently
[11:12]in the book.
[11:13]One of those characters fits right in, she becomes a New Yorker.
[11:17]And the other kind of seems destined not to.
[11:19]And I was wondering if one or both of those reflect your own experience in kind of moving
[11:25]to New York and becoming a New Yorker?
[11:28]Well, I-
[11:29]Like I told you, I was raised in Fargo, which was a wonderful place to grow up, but
[11:33]I was really hell-bent on leaving because I wanted to-
[11:36]I wanted to job in the magazine industry, and I was offered an incredible job.
[11:41]The magazine called Mademoiselle, which doesn't exist anymore, but in its day, it was
[11:45]really terrific magazine for women in their 20s.
[11:48]And so I moved to New York, and I was excited to be in New York.
[11:54]And even though I part of the stood back and analyzed New York and thought, I don't want
[12:00]to come, you know, 100% in New York, I mean it was-
[12:02]I was fascinated about, for example, how New York makes you want things, because there's
[12:08]so many consumer items all over you, it was displayed so attractively, and you don't find
[12:14]that in other cities.
[12:15]When, you know, growing up, I wanted to dress like the girls from 17 magazine, but
[12:20]I could not find those clothes in the stores where I lived.
[12:23]So I couldn't do it.
[12:26]So part of me was always an outsider looking in criticizing, I suppose, or at least analyzing.
[12:32]The other part of me was completely excited to be in New York, and I've never been bored
[12:35]here for a day in my life.
[12:37]And if you are- or something wrong with you, because New York offers so much.
[12:44]So I guess I was both.
[12:46]Yeah.
[12:47]And now, Lee, we were talking just before we started recording, but this is your seventh
[12:52]book.
[12:54]I read that you have been published in a dozen countries, probably more than that.
[12:59]So how does this time feel the same?
[13:02]How does it feel different?
[13:03]You know, what's interesting to me, Alicia, is to have- every time I published a book,
[13:08]there are a few years between each book, I'm not an author who turns out a book every
[13:13]year.
[13:14]I feel like I'm publishing into a different publishing landscape, things change.
[13:19]And my first book came out- all I basically had to do after the book was ready was like,
[13:24]you have a list of addresses to my- the publicist at the publishing house was different.
[13:29]It was a major publishing house, but not the one that publishing me publishing this book.
[13:34]And they threw me a beautiful party at this wonderful restaurant connection to the new
[13:38]Steve of modern art.
[13:40]And I, you know, I had to be ready when the limo would pick me up for the- the wonderful
[13:45]events.
[13:46]It's very different now.
[13:48]There's much more- there's much more on the author's back in terms of- because we're
[13:51]social media in terms of publicizing the book.
[13:54]And what's different between this book and the last book, another side of paradise,
[13:59]is that people seem to start publicizing their book a lot earlier.
[14:03]And it just seems like people started hearing advance and if you don't, you're really
[14:09]missing out and you're- you're expected to.
[14:12]You're publishing house really depends on you to do that.
[14:15]So I think that's, you know, one of the biggest changes.
[14:18]But the- the thrill of publishing a book never gets old.
[14:22]And it feels new all over again.
[14:23]You feel very, very excited.
[14:25]I feel just as excited as I did the first time.
[14:28]It's- it's a- it's a wonderful feeling to make something from nothing.
[14:33]Basically, that's what you're doing when you write a book.
[14:36]What would you tell yourself when you're- that, you know, your former self?
[14:42]So you, when your first book came out?
[14:44]What would you tell her now knowing what you know and having done this so many times?
[14:48]I would say, you might like this more than you think.
[14:53]Because I- I wrote a book, kind of, to fill my time when I was looking for a job.
[14:59]I had been an editor-in-chief of a major magazine and then another major magazine, but
[15:04]now to start up magazine and start up magazine crash, because most start up magazines do
[15:10]basically.
[15:11]magazine said it already started to fade away a little bit.
[15:13]I mean, you know, the- was published by a major company and- and also the Disney company.
[15:20]It was a magazine that extended the brand of lifetime television, which was- it's very
[15:26]popular enough, but it was even more popular and unusual back then.
[15:31]And- but unfortunately, it didn't really take off as magazine.
[15:34]So I wanted to get another job as an editor-in-chief of magazine, but there aren't very
[15:39]many of them.
[15:41]There, you know, there's only one editor-in-chief of the job of each masterhead.
[15:46]So I joined a writing workshop, which my friends thought was nuts, because I'd been writing
[15:51]my whole life as the editor of magazine, but I had never written fiction, never.
[15:56]And the leader of the group, the writing workshop, encouraged me and so did the other colleague
[16:03]writers and group.
[16:04]And it just turned out to be something that I enjoyed and thought this may be this place
[16:08]to my strength more than being an editor for magazine, even though it's very different.
[16:12]You're the editor for magazine.
[16:14]You have about, you know, 85 tasks to complete each day, and then you take a ton of
[16:19]work home at night.
[16:21]It's very lonely to be an author, you know, I'm lucky enough to live in New York where
[16:26]I can meet other- other authors and other friends, the lunch or glass of wine or something,
[16:32]but it's basically you sitting in front of your laptop.
[16:36]I realized how much I liked it, and at that time, when looking for a job, the job's
[16:40]either in underplaces to me that felt undesirable, you know, making you, I didn't really want
[16:46]to commute to a job in Milwaukee, for example, not that it's an undesirable place just
[16:49]that it's really far away from me.
[16:51]It's pretty far from New York.
[16:52]I have a husband who I love, like if we would, but also I didn't want to head up to
[16:59]celebrity magazine, and they were very much the thing about 15 years ago, and I just felt
[17:06]it worked too hard to do some fairly serious journalism to edit a magazine that was worshiping
[17:11]the Kardashians just wasn't me.
[17:14]So after the book came out and it sold in an auction right away, I started writing another
[17:19]one, and that book became the best seller in New York, so it was exciting, and after
[17:24]that I just kind of stuck with it, and by that time it was very, the writing was on
[17:29]the wall, but magazines were on their way out, which is sad.
[17:33]And you made a good move, you made a good move, and what is your process like?
[17:37]So now that you have done this several times, you must kind of have the same things that
[17:42]you do each time.
[17:43]What is your writing process like when you start on a new fiction project?
[17:46]Well, all my books are very character driven, so I always think of the characters first,
[17:53]and the basic concept, I mean, one book was about four friends, and one book was about
[17:59]a woman who was dead, and she told the point that it's called The Late, The Mented
[18:03]Molly Marks, and she tells, it's a double timeline, as part of it's when she's alive
[18:08]and part of it's when she's no longer alive, and she has this way of looking back and
[18:12]her life from a place not having, I call it the duration.
[18:17]So I start with an idea and characters, and then part of me, and I think this is the magazine
[18:23]editor and me, I always have a working title in mind that helps me focus.
[18:29]And then the more I develop the characters and the more they start feeling like real people
[18:34]to me, the more I understand what they're going to do next.
[18:38]So it's, I am not an author who outlines everything.
[18:42]I admire people tremendously who can do that, I can't do that.
[18:46]My characters have to start telling me what's going to happen next, but I do help it along
[18:51]by throwing obstacles down in their way that they have to surmount and that creates tension
[18:56]in a plot.
[18:58]And somehow, rather, it all works out, but that is my process is also inspired by being
[19:03]a magazine editor that I'm quite disciplined, and I get up early in the morning, and
[19:08]I sit down at the computer and I put in a few hours and then take a break, and then
[19:14]usually, once I've written something, I love to turn myself into an editor and go over
[19:19]it again, and again, I want to tell you how many it gets, because I just don't stop reread.
[19:26]I usually reread, but I've just written to start writing for the next day.
[19:30]So then your editors love you, they must get something that I've polished by the time
[19:34]it comes to their desk.
[19:35]Oh, yeah, but it might have the word astonishing 25 times, you know, you get hung up on
[19:40]words.
[19:41]And I also keep trying to raise the bar in myself to try to improve the actual writing.
[19:45]And I've tried different, slightly different kinds of books, because one book was non-fiction
[19:50]and one book was a historical novel, so I keep trying to challenge myself.
[19:55]But there's basically what comes down to a lot of sitting in front of a laptop.
[20:00]Yep, I have found that as well just in different places. I try to always change where I'm sitting so I don't get bored
[20:06]But a lot the montage the working montage would be just like a lot of typing in front of a screen
[20:13]Well, I have to say don't change the way place
[20:15]I'm sitting and often when my husband comes home at the end of the day
[20:18]He'll say you're in the exact same place where you were when I left to it
[20:23]Okay, legitimate question. Do you like get up and get dressed to right or do you write in your pajamas?
[20:29]I suppose a personal question. Yeah, I've been going to you know, not
[20:35]Change out of my nightgown until maybe you know 45 minutes after I had my coffee and breakfast and I kind of eat my breakfast in front of my computer
[20:44]But that's not all writing time, you know my email and do wordle. Yeah, you know things one does to warm up
[20:52]I got a text this morning from a friend who I was supposed to see for a coffee and she said I
[20:57]Can't I she can't she was canceling on me. She said I'm really sorry if you got out of your pajamas just for me. It was like actually
[21:05]But that's what I'm here for a lockdown. I think probably
[21:09]When getting out of my pajamas, I really don't upgrade that much because when I was a magazine editor
[21:14]I really dressed up every day because people still did back then. I mean I actually wore you know
[21:19]So it was all about your hair to work every day. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, and how I could really walk on them and
[21:26]So my idea of dressing up now is putting on a pair of jeans and you know nice clean top
[21:32]You know, we're not we're not and if I were working it really would would be different
[21:37]But it wouldn't be wouldn't be that big an upgrade because people don't dress up as much as they
[21:42]So what is next for you? What's your next project or what are you working on now or what will you be working on soon?
[21:48]Well, I have I
[21:50]Have like many other authors. I have a book that I wrote during the pandemic
[21:54]Okay, I'm still kind of fussing with a little bit. I don't know what'll happen with that
[21:59]Then I started something that I brought 75 pages into with a kind of a rough outline of the rest of it
[22:06]Which I've shown my agents, but then they they came back with a different approach for me
[22:12]So I'm thinking, you know, I came up with a couple of ideas along their lines. So I'll be hopefully hopefully I'll be writing another book
[22:21]But and then I I've been writing a lot of little essays lately as one does when a book is coming out and that's been fun
[22:28]I I like doing that also so I might maybe you know try to do a bit of more of that until I really
[22:35]Seek my teeth into a new book
[22:37]So last time still in front of your computer, but on various different. Yes. Yes, sadly, but
[22:44]It could be worse
[22:46]So my podcast that I do for zebis networks called quit your day job
[22:50]So I would like to know if you weren't writing what else would you be doing with your life? Oh?
[22:56]Well travel especially now that my children at least for one year are in Europe
[23:01]I think I mentioned that once in Berlin and one is in Paris with their wives and with their kids travel definitely
[23:09]I wish I could travel more, but I haven't been still working, you know, it's
[23:13]It's when we're not gonna be people who are gonna be taken off for three months to back back through the Alps or something
[23:20]I think though, you know one when I think about their things that I might have done if I'd taken another term might have been to go into
[23:26]television who more
[23:29]Probably maybe be us try to write scripts. I think that I didn't ever encourage me to do that
[23:35]I was when I always say I'm good
[23:37]I never thought of being to California, but one of my sons is a producer and an agent and rather a manager
[23:43]And so I've you know, I've learned more about the industry and and I really love writing dialogue and I love thinking
[23:49]So I think I might have wanted to explore that whole world. Maybe that can be your next challenge is going into a script a whole new different style of writing
[23:59]Who knows who knows
[24:02]Sally has been so wonderful to talk to you today
[24:04]We always like to finish up here on mom's own have time to read books with your advice to aspiring writers
[24:10]What do you have to say to all of those people sitting in front of their computers to
[24:15]Who are looking up to your career and want to know what do you think they could or should be doing?
[24:20]Well, I always tell people to try to find a writing workshop because I enjoyed being in one so much and after I dropped out of it
[24:28]I kind of form my own. I approached a couple of people who's
[24:34]not who's writing
[24:35]I enjoyed reading and who seemed to get what I was doing and
[24:39]They weren't in conflict
[24:41]Sometimes if you're in a writing workshop people give you very conflicting
[24:44]Suggestions and it can make a mess what you're doing. So I think it's very good to get some feedback
[24:51]And if you can't find a writing workshop at least have
[24:54]Another a trusted friend region work. The other I think would just be to read extensively
[25:00]To and to try to slow down your reading so you're not reading exclusive little plot
[25:05]To try to take note of how a book is constructed and even to look more of the words
[25:12]I keep a you know running list of
[25:15]Words that I'd like and
[25:17]It's not cheating
[25:19]To do a fine replace if you see that you you overuse a word and you won't use it astonishing 26 times
[25:26]That you dip into that your list and it can be it can be a way to jumpstart your creativity a little bit
[25:32]If you go over your you know, and it can be or it could be a little scene
[25:36]And I also and this is something that I also think you should carry notebook with you and
[25:41]Write down little snippets of conversation that you hear somebody expresses themselves in in a way that you really admire
[25:48]Write it down and I as I mentioned you one of the books. I wrote this about
[25:52]I've got this Gerald and if I mentioned it exactly but one of the books was right after those countries on Sheila Graham
[25:58]His girlfriend
[25:59]I want to say mistress because she's basically more supported him that he supported her
[26:04]My aunt's and he used to always carry notebook and do that
[26:08]So you'd be with the best of them not me Scott if you do that so those are all things that I have that idea
[26:16]Well, it's important
[26:17]New York is such a good city to eavesdrop on people. It's my favorite eavesdropping so that's true because we're all crammed together like so
[26:23]Oh
[26:25]So Sally your book is out now and your other books are available and is there any world's listeners can find more information about you?
[26:32]Do you do you have any social? I know you've got a website because I've been on it
[26:35]I do I have a website which is sally cozlo.com and caught a Sally
[26:40]S A L L Y K O S L O W and I have an Instagram account and I'm
[26:47]Re-shirts under SP Coslo
[26:49]I don't think it's too hard to find it and you can find me at Sally Coslo author on Facebook
[26:55]Not a big Twitter user, but it wants them while I tweet something and I think that's
[27:00]Sally Coslo also
[27:03]So I'm there. You're everywhere. It's all pretty visible. Yes
[27:08]Awesome. Well, so
[27:11]No, no, no, I'm saying and now because of video conferencing it's easy to visit people's book clubs wherever they are
[27:18]And you do think that the real miss is to buy us is a total riffic book or book club because after you
[27:25]Discuss what's going on with the characters in the book you might last segue into what's going on with your own mother-in-law
[27:31]Darden law could be interesting
[27:33]I totally agree. I
[27:35]Totally agree. I as long as my mother-in-law is not in the book club with me. I definitely like to discuss this book with the book club
[27:43]My mother-in-law
[27:45]Good. I love mine too. Did I not say that I adore?
[27:49]You did and you called it formidable, which is which is a pretty awesome way to be described
[27:53]I aspire to be described as formidable by my own daughter-in-law one day. So
[28:00]Sally, thank you so much and good luck with the rest of the book tour. I'm so thank you
[28:04]Today, I love it. Thank you very much. Be well. Take care. You too. Bye
[28:12]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books
[28:15]Don't forget to follow me on instagram at zibi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books
[28:20]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom every other week
[28:27]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan back texture sound for the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions for providing
[28:33]this fantastic intro and out trim music