Bethanne Patrick, MISSING PAGES Podcast

[1:36]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, the creator and host of the award winning podcast that you're listening to right now, thank you so much, called Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. It is a daily podcast three hundred and sixty five days a year, and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career, their book, their life, and more in thirty minutes or less because who has time? I am now an author myself, although I wasn't when I started this podcast, and you can get my new memoir, A Memoir of Love, Loss, and Literature wherever books are sold starting July 1, and my children's book, Princess Charming. You can learn more about me at zibbyowens.com, But really, you're here to learn more about the authors, and that is what we're going to do. Also, sure to check out all the other podcasts in the ZCast Podcast Network. You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com, and definitely check out those shows as well. I hope you'll all check out the all new Zippy Mag, z I b b y m a g, the literary lifestyle destination with essays, book news, a lit lifestyle feature, and even some classes. Check it out. Zippymag.com. Bethanne Patrick is the host of the Missing Pages podcast, which is a new podcast from the podglomerate. And she is a huge important person in the publishing world. Let me just say that. She has a storied place in the publishing industry as a critic. And she is thebookmaven on Twitter, where she created the popular FridayReads and regularly comments on books and literary ideas to over 200,000 followers. Her work appears frequently in the Los Angeles Times as well as in the Washington Post, NPR Books and LitHub. She sits on the board of the Penn Faulkner Foundation. You could find out more about her at bethannpatrick.com, and you will hear all about this fabulous new podcast called Missing Pages, but you have to promise to keep listening to this one too. Welcome, Bethann. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[3:37]Bethanne Patrick: So excited to be here, Zibby. I know well, even though my two daughters are grown now, what it's like not to have any time to read books. Yes. Although, come on. You read probably more than anybody. You're like the literary connoisseur. I, you know, I think this is, as I tell everyone, something that happens when you go to grad school in any humanities subject. You just learn how to consume content on the page really quickly. So it's a little bit freakish how fast I read, but I wouldn't give it up.

[4:13]Zibby Owens: Do you feel I have noticed, and I sometimes I, like, time myself to be really nerdy. Like, my reading speed has increased. It continues to increase even slightly the more I read. You know, I haven't done that in a while, and I should because

[4:29]Bethanne Patrick: I just told someone the other day I'm sorry. I have a dog in the background.

[4:34]Zibby Owens: Can't even hear. Okay.

[4:36]Bethanne Patrick: As long as she doesn't interrupt anything. So about 75 pages an hour is my general speed. And I sometimes find it slowing down if I'm really engaged with something, then maybe it will speed up if I'm trying to, you know, just go through the center of the page to get to Yeah. You know, the end of something. And one thing I'll be very, very honest with you and your audience is I found that a lot of books endings are are tough. Endings are really tough. And I have found too many books in the past decade rush the ending. And so sometimes I find myself reading a lot faster toward the end of a book because I'm like, you know, you're really not Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't go for really good books, though. Yeah. Certainly not my book. No. I'm kidding. No. Absolutely not.

[5:38]Zibby Owens: It was so nice of you, by the way, to have me on missing pages. That was so great. And I am obsessed with your show. Oh my gosh. Like, tell everybody about it because it's the most brilliant concept, but the execution is even better than the idea. So Thank you, Zibby. That is really high praise. And from someone who has been podcasting

[6:00]Bethanne Patrick: so much, I mean, every day, it's kind of amazing to hear you say that. So thank you. And Missing Pages is about the scams and scandals and fiascos of the book publishing world, of the literary world, let's say. And this is a show that originally was conceived of as something more gossipy and kind of lighthearted. But then when I came on board because my credit is host and producer, so I really got my hands in there. And when I got in there and my showrunner Kayla Littman also got in there, I don't know if it's big female energy or what, but we we were like, well, we have to figure out why this happened. Not just, oh, this is kind of sketchy or this is gossipy. We wanted to know what made it possible. So that's how the show's execution kept expanding. And it took us a long time to put it together, but I'm glad that we did. We don't solve all of the world's problems or the publishing world's problems, But at least we tried to bring up questions.

[7:11]Zibby Owens: It's amazing. And there's so many even off the top of my head that I want you to do episodes about. You know? Because you Oh, that's I can't wait to hear them. Your episode, what is her name? Like, you always hold on. The the first woman that you did, Vishnu not Vishnu. Hold on. Hold on. Let me find Yeah. Cavya Viswanathan. Yes. Cavya. Sorry. Yes. Your first episode about Cavya, who wrote a book and then was acute accused of plagiarism. You totally looked into the whole book packaging industry to show that actually she was sort of a casualty of the early days, not even early days of book packaging, because as you point out, it had been done since Sweet Valley High and Nancy Drew and all of that. But this new iteration when Aloy got involved and they put her up as the face of this book that was then found to be completely plagiarized. And what I thought was not only was it amazing, the deep dive you did into this, but that Harvard ended up finding her not guilty of plagiarism.

[8:07]Bethanne Patrick: So make sense of this for me. Well, first of all, I just wanna say for your audience and people who may be following along with missing pages that not every episode has such a satisfying resolution because there were some people who wouldn't talk to us, you know, who weren't interested in bringing in their experience for for many reasons. And I get it. You know, some of them because it was, you know, bringing up really painful things. Some of them have no interest in, you know, talking about what happened. But Tabia was really generous and really open about this. And she had never told anyone before that Harvard exonerated her from plagiarism, which is a very big deal to me. Yes. Look. We all realized after hearing Khavia's story about being accused of plagiarizing part of Megan McCafferty's books, part of her work, that this was a big deal, and this was something that really affected, you know, the high level of publishing, marketing, and business. But we also all knew that she had to have been under some kind of nondisclosure agreement. Right? You know, when something like this happens, you just know Alloy Entertainment is not going to say, oh, go ahead with your life and, you know, talk about whatever you want. So she had never revealed to anyone before. She was so traumatized, I feel, by the whole experience. She'd been so young. And, you know, I don't know. She she's so savvy. I don't wanna say naive, but youth comes along with a certain level of naivete. And so her youth and inexperience really affected how she handled the situation. So also at the time that she was being, you know, interrogated by Katie Couric, there's no other way to say it because Couric really did, like, go after her. And, you know, you can see the clip. You can hear it. She wouldn't have graduated. She wouldn't have been exonerated yet. Now we do have the letter. She shared the letter with us from Harvard saying, you know, you're cleared and you can graduate. We do not have the proceedings of, you know, what they did or how they examined the manuscript. But I feel that that's a pretty

[10:41]Zibby Owens: I mean, Harvard, that's a big brand. Yeah. You're like, I think that's a bigger brand than, like, the today show. Or or

[10:48]Bethanne Patrick: Alloy. You know? Or Alloy. Yeah. Yeah. And so come on. They are putting that weight behind her, and I think it's really significant and important. And I am so, so happy. It it took us a lot of discussion to get her to come on I bet. And speak to us. I am so honored by her trust in how we handled things. You know, of course, every show, Zippy, you know this. Every podcast, every everything anyone does is going to get criticism. And we've seen, you know, reviews from listeners saying, oh, you just, you know, puddled her or,

[11:28]Zibby Owens: you know, bought me. I'm actually really surprised to hear that. I don't feel like that. But Thank you. That's interesting. Yeah. So It's nice that you got reviews. I mean, that's good. Yeah. Exactly.

[11:41]Bethanne Patrick: Exactly. We are getting reviews. You know, this is this has been a wild ride for me as a newbie podcaster. You know, Missing Pages has gotten a lot of attention, and almost all of it's been really, really good. And so I cannot complain. And I you know, if someone's taking the time to review, I say thank you. Right. Because you listened and you're giving your honest opinion. And, you know, that is something in our business, I think, we could all see more of. I I totally agree.

[12:17]Zibby Owens: I think it's like the only I mean, there's there are obviously a lot of shows about books and Book It, you know, my own show included here, But yours, the way it's so highly produced with all these clips from other places, so much research, It almost feels like this multimedia experience except audio. I mean, I know that sounds stupid, but it was very entertaining. It's like immersive and entertaining, and also you learn a lot. So don't know. I I I am a huge fan, and it's very cool what you're doing. Well, thank you. I you know, I love that you said it's, you know, immersive

[12:54]Bethanne Patrick: because I think that's something we really wanted to go for. Our early scripts were much more straightforward and, you know, sort of like, okay. This is a simple narrative. And Kayla, as a showrunner, was really able to bring in, you know, her podcasting experience. She's been with Vox and with Conde Nast and really understands multimedia from those big brands. She was able to say, come on. We need, you know, some music here, or we need a little Foley sound here, or, you know, let's pull this clip from so and so's interview because it actually speaks to something another person said. And that kind of having and you know because you've been a guest, that kind of dialogue between the pieces of the show is one of the things I think that gives it its immersive quality. Agreed.

[13:51]Zibby Owens: It's great. Wow. What fun. So, Beth Ann, can can you take me back to the part of your life before you became this world renowned? I mean, you've been I mean, I will have read your I read your bio at the beginning, but everything from the Washington Post, LitHub, I mean, you're all over NPR. I mean, everywhere. How did this all start? Where did you develop your love of books? Is this like, how did you get on this path?

[14:18]Bethanne Patrick: Well, I I've gotta give all the props first and foremost to my mom because, you know, she was the one that inculcated or or, you know, helped me grow this love of reading. And she was one of those moms who did all the voices and all the gestures. And I remember when I edited my anthology, the books that changed my life. Yeah. One of the people I spoke to was Margaret Atwood. And her first line, this is my favorite. I had a reading mother. It's the best thing. And then she goes on to talk about how her mother also did the voices and acted things out. And there's something about that, Zibby. And you're a mom. I'm a mom. There there's something about having a parent who doesn't just sit next to your bed and speak in a monotone. There's something about a parent who not only is bringing these characters to life, but a mom or a dad who says, I am just gonna get into it too. It completely changes the experience for you. These aren't just books. They really are experiences. So that's where it started. It continued. I went to college. I got a little afraid. I didn't major in English because I got a couple of bad grades. But then I course corrected by going to graduate school for English lit. Wait. What did you what did you end up majoring in? And I in government. Okay. Okay. So, you know, in government, which was great. You know? And I majored in government, so I met my husband at a Model UN conference. So there was a reason for it. See, there's, you know, there there's a reason for everything. But then, like I said, I went on to do graduate work in literature, you know, and learned that not just that I could read quickly and and, you know, bring in a lot of this, but that I just didn't really want to work in anything else. I tried, you know, teaching. I tried a little editing here and there, but then I thought I just want to read books and write about them. And, you know, I started at the very lowest end. You know, I had a couple of small publications that I convinced to let me write reviews for and, you know, built up from there. And it took, you know, it took a long time. It was definitely not overnight success. It is success I made a lot of mistakes along the way, Zibby. There are publications that I wrote for and no longer write for. Sometimes not because anything bad went wrong, but because, I don't know, there was a a turn in my life. I also should say sorry. I'm burying the lead as we say in journalism. My husband is active duty military for twenty one years, and so we moved a lot. And in moving, sometimes, you know, I let go of opportunities, wasn't able to, you know, keep up with something that I love doing. But, finally, I managed to put everything together and say, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm not gonna throw myself behind things that I don't care about anymore. And this is what I'm really the point I'm really coming to in making this life that too many people looks so amazing. Right? I mean, as you said, I hear you read my credentials, and I'm like, wow. Who is that? It doesn't feel like that inside. And that is not me putting myself down. That is just because when you're inside of it, and you know this as well, Zibby, you are just doing the work. And you're doing the work because you really love it, and this is what you've chosen. I feel so privileged to have that and to have had support all the way from my mom to my husband to my yeah. The rest of my family to be able to say, this is what I am doing, and I do not need to worry about, you know, another type of work. I don't need to think about what should have been. I am just completely present when I'm working on whether it's writing a book, because I have one coming out next year. I'm excited about that. Or reviewing a book or talking to an author. You know, it you really when you when you love what you do, you do get into a state of flow. And so I think that's the most important thing. If someone truly believes that this is the kind of life she wants, I say go for it. Don't don't think, oh, there is no book media anymore. And by the way, there is book media because I just got a press release about Zippy magazine. And congratulations,

[19:29]Zibby Owens: girlfriend. That is very exciting. So am really excited about it. We've been this has been in the works for a while, and I'm so excited. I really wanna, like, bring back the old school glamour and have a whole thing. I wanna have, like, you know, I just read in the paper this morning this terrible, by the way, review of Blonde, the movie based on Joyce Carol Oates' book. Yes. Did you see that review? Anyway I did not see the review. Anyway. But, like, I want to have a feature now about Joyce Carol Oates. And when I had her on my podcast and put a few pictures of that. And then I wanna somehow link it into, like, fun things you can buy. Like, check out that bookshelf floating behind her or, like, look at maybe look at her glasses or I don't know. I wanna, like, have it so that other people can get bits and pieces of this lifestyle.

[20:10]Bethanne Patrick: And by the way, I mentioned Margaret Atwood a little earlier. Those two, Margaret and Joyce, besties. Interesting. Yes. Yes. Which is something

[20:19]Zibby Owens: I don't think I would have put together, but they are. So That would be another good feature. Exactly. Who did you not know was a good were, like, really good who are really good friend pairs in publishing?

[20:30]Bethanne Patrick: Like, that's fun. That would be really fun. You wanna write it for me? Yes. Yes. I'm not even kidding. There we go. There we go. My first assignment for Zibby Magazine. That would be really fun. Yeah. Unexpected. I could talk about, like, my literary bestie. You know? Yeah. Totally.

[20:47]Zibby Owens: That is really that's And then we can and we can post about it, and then we have to say tag your literary bestie. Yes. Yes. You do. Literary bestie to blah blah blah. Anyway, we'll just keep going for okay. I'm excited. Love it. I really love how things like this happen in Zibby world, in the Zibby universe. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated, but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zippy.

[23:46]Bethanne Patrick: You know? You you think the way I do. This is something, you know, we were talking about how did I get into this and all that kind of thing. And that's part of how I got into it is I just kept thinking, why don't we write about this? Why don't we do this? Why isn't there more? And, you know, I have had a different path than you have. But at the same time, that's one of the things that keeps me going. Because this book publishing world, this literary world is so full of ideas, personalities, things that tie other things together. And one of the I don't know. This is funny. I've been thinking about this for a long time about writing something about criticism from the heart. Because when I write book reviews, I really try to approach each book as the book is. Not as I wish it would be. Not I think you should have written this kind of book instead of the one that I I try to say, what was this author trying to do? And if there are things that they didn't that they missed the mark on, I will notice them. And I'm gonna give you an example, Debbie, of of the recent Anthony Mera, Mercury Pictures Presents. So, of course, like everyone else, Mera's previous work, I'm just gaga about. He's an amazing writer. He's an original thinker. So much good. I did think Mercury Pictures Presents fell short in a couple of things. I did review it for the LA Times, and I talked about those things. I talked about why I thought it didn't work and what I thought could have worked better. And that was not because I wanted to say this is a bad book or you shouldn't read this book. Big Anthony Marra fans, go ahead. You're, you know, you're going to love so much about this. You may, as a friend texted me yesterday, find yourself stuck in the middle and thinking, I I don't know if I wanna finish this book. And I say, you have to finish it because this is one of those books that does stick the landing. But in the middle, it gets a little bit messy. This is not just me from my heart trying to be kind to Anthony Mera. This is me from my heart saying, here's what doesn't work. But I don't have to rip him apart. I don't have to say this is a terrible book or that no one should read it. And so this is me, you know, really caring about a book. So what I'm trying to get to oh gosh. I do go on, Zibby. No. You're great. I love it. I could listen to you all day. I love it. Thank you. What I what I'm trying to get to is the fact that you and I, you know, have been raised in this era where it seemed like let's be critical. Logic is all. Analysis is all. And the more critical you are, the more serious you are. Guess what? I don't believe that. I believe that you can be compassionate and kind and clear sighted and really lift things up instead of just tearing them apart. And that's what's kept me going for the years I've been in this in this business.

[27:08]Zibby Owens: I love that. That's so great. I know there's some there was one review I read. I'm trying to remember which author it was. It was so mean that I, like, emailed her right away. Like we weren't it's not like we were friend. I don't know. She'd been on the podcast, I had her email. I just had to write. And I was like, look. I just read this. It is the meanest thing ever. You don't deserve this. I really loved your book. I hope you're not paying any attention or something. Don't pay any attention to it. That is not the last word

[27:34]Bethanne Patrick: on the book, whichever book it is. You know, the last word isn't the best word or the worst word. And so you have to you know, I was talking earlier about reviews on the podcast, and some of them, you know, are critical. In a way, I love that because it means someone paid attention. Yes. And they cared enough to be honest. You know, we had amazing this week. We had a New York Magazine in print review from Nick Kwa. Oh my gosh. Amazing. So amazing. I know. Really awesome. I get I get his newsletter. You know how big this is. Right? That's a really big deal. You know, he had some some criticisms. You know? One of them being that the host, Beth Ann Patrick, says we authors too often.

[28:25]Zibby Owens: Oh, man. I thought that was hilarious. That's grasping at straws. That's fine. That's a fine critique. Okay. I can live with that. Yeah. Exactly.

[28:33]Bethanne Patrick: I can live with that. So, you know, there's no reason for anyone to tear anyone apart. But if they do or what have you, the author doesn't need to take it to heart.

[28:48]Zibby Owens: Yep. Agreed. Wait. And now I'm sorry I missed that review. I'm gonna go read it afterwards. But, anyway, your memoir, which I'm, like, very sad because it would have been, I'm sure, a perfect memoir for Zippy Books, but it's okay. I understand.

[29:03]Bethanne Patrick: We weren't lynched in time. You know, I sold it on proposal years before Zibby Books launched.

[29:09]Zibby Owens: You know, I don't blame you.

[29:11]Bethanne Patrick: Tell me about it. Tell me more about it. On it for a really long time, and it will be wonderful if I'm able to come back and talk to you about it next year. It comes out in May 2023, and it's called life be overcoming double depression. Oh. And it's a memoir about a form of mental illness that I have called double depression, cycling depression, double dysthymia. There are a whole bunch of names for it. But, basically, what it comes down to, Zibby, is that a person with double depression starts life out lower than everyone else and then is chronically depressed and also has periods of major depression. And so what this means that the most significant thing to tell you about it, because I don't wanna, you know, bore your audience, is that I was always depressed. And then I had these periods of major depression. So I was being treated for depression for quite a long time, and I thought doing everything I'm supposed to do, taking my meds, going to therapy, being a good, you know, healthy person, but I was still having major depressive episodes. And about six years ago, I went to my doctor and said, something has got to change. There's something off here. And she sent me to a new psychiatrist who diagnosed me with this condition. And all that was required, I'm putting that in air quotes because, you know, come on. There's a lot involved, was putting me on a medication that helps stop the cycling. And it's a medication that's often used for epilepsy. Mhmm. But it's called Trileptol. Mhmm. And when it stopped the cycles, then the antidepressant could do its work. I was able to live I kept wondering my whole life, why do other people get so excited about things? Why do other people have so much joy? Now I know. Now I know. Gosh. It's you know, my so my memoir is sort of a Horatio Alger story in reverse, if you will. You know? I I get better, and I'm, you know, able to continue healing and growing now. And it's just an amazing it's an amazing thing for me. That doesn't mean reading my book will be amazing for everyone, but I hope that it will give some people, especially women who are in midlife and midlife now means anything from, like, 35 to 75. Right?

[31:56]Zibby Owens: I think it starts at, like, 42. I feel like 43, 42, everybody all of sudden was like, well, we're in midlife. Right? I'm like, Okay. Alright.

[32:05]Bethanne Patrick: I've gotten yeah. Thank you. So I hope that, you know, women in that messy middle will be able to say, oh, if there is something bothering me, I can act on it. I can take action and change. And that, you know, doesn't mean that you're mentally ill.

[32:25]Zibby Owens: Right. You could be you know, change for you could be something completely different. Yes. The fact that you have lived your whole life in a depressive state and are only now experiencing joy is heartbreaking to me. It's truly heartbreaking. And I am just so relieved that now you can go out. And I bet for you, like even the smallest things are causing so much joy. I bet like the smell of a flower or, like, you know, a beautiful tree or sunset, like, all those cliched things

[32:56]Bethanne Patrick: that bring joy. It's true. And it's you know, sometimes joy broke through. I mean, come on. I, you know, had a wedding day and, you know, graduations and the births of my Right. Of course. Of But that every day kind of, you know, just loveliness and being present, that's that's a big part of it is, you know, being able to say, I'm not viewing this through, you know, sort of cotton wool. I'm able to be right here for it. So it's true. And just, you know, having a conversation like this one, having conversations with friends who are bookish, you know, and not thinking, oh, what do I have to do later or what mistakes have I made? Instead, just saying, this is so much fun. Oh my gosh. Well, I can't wait to read your book. What's the tie what's the title? Oh, you told me already. Yes. The plan b. And life b, I'll just tell you really quickly, refers to there was a moment when I first took an antidepressant, and it was it was a big decision for me because at the time, it wasn't something everyone was doing. And two weeks after I started taking it, it felt like that moment at the eye doctor where they say, which one is more clear, a or b? And you're like, b. I can see. I can see much more clearly. So that's what it's about. Oh my gosh.

[34:25]Zibby Owens: Well, I'm really excited for it. And, yes, please come back when it comes out. Send me an advanced copy. Let me know what I can do to help. I can't wait. Absolutely. Thank you. I'm so excited for Missing Pages. I'm hooked completely, and it's exactly the kind of, like, delicious insider look into all sorts of stuff. So I'm waiting for James Fry. You haven't had that scandal. No. Not yet. And I should say Missing Pages is produced by the podglomerate,

[34:51]Bethanne Patrick: is this amazing group. And we talked a little earlier about how highly produced it is. And so I just wanna give a lot of props to the CEO and our executive producer, Jeff Umbro, and his team. So you can find missing pages everywhere. But if you subscribe on Apple podcasts, you get bonus episodes. I saw that. That's cool. Zibby are one of those bonus episodes. So Thank you. Alright. Amazing. You're welcome. Beth Ann, thank you. Thank you for the time. And when are we hanging out? Obviously, not now. You know what, Zibby? I am gonna be in New York at the end of October. So Oh, great. You will be able. I will give you a ring. Perfect. Let's let's make a plan or something. We will. Okay. Thanks again for having me on the show. Take care. Okay. Bye bye.

[35:39]Zibby Owens: Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.