Jennifer Close, MARRYING THE KETCHUPS: A Novel
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[1:14]Jennifer Close is the author of marrying the ketchup's a novel.
[1:17]Jennifer is the best-selling author of Girls and White Dresses, the smart one, and the hopeful.
[1:21]Born and raised on the north shore of Chicago, she is a graduate of Boston College and received her MFA in fiction writing for the new school in 2005.
[1:27]She now lives in Washington, D.C., and teaches creative writing a catable.
[1:31]Welcome, Jennifer.
[1:32]Thank you so much for coming on mom's.
[1:34]Don't have time to read books to discuss marrying the ketchup's a novel.
[1:37]Thank you so much for having me.
[1:38]I'm excited to be here.
[1:39]I have to say, I watched the video of you teaching people how to marry the ketchup's.
[1:45]Do you know what it was?
[1:47]I had no idea what it was, and my daughter and I watched, she had no idea what it was.
[1:52]Now I'm slightly like kind of not horrified, but like the idea.
[1:57]Maybe you should explain to people.
[1:59]So this is a novel, but Jennifer did a video which you can all go watch on YouTube explaining what this is.
[2:05]So why don't you just explain it?
[2:07]Sure. So it is funny because I waited in college and I had no idea what it was.
[2:13]So at the end of the night, the servers take all of like the condiments and they take the ketchup's and the half empty kind of dirty ketchup's.
[2:21]And they combine them to make it look brand new.
[2:24]And I just remember the first time I saw them do that.
[2:26]I just like blew my mind.
[2:28]I was like, oh, I guess I wasn't getting a brand new bottle of ketchup every time I sat down somewhere.
[2:32]And it is gross.
[2:34]It is a little disturbing, but it's I don't know.
[2:37]It's just one of those things that when you eat at a restaurant, you never think about.
[2:40]And then when you're there working, it's like, oh, yeah, there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes.
[2:46]So that's where the title came from.
[2:48]I originally did not want this to be the title. It was the title of the first section in my editor kept asking.
[2:53]Can we call the book this, can we call this?
[2:55]And finally, I just said sure.
[2:57]But I'm so happy because it does seem like the right title for it.
[3:00]Well, what did you want it to be called?
[3:02]It's a it's a horrible title.
[3:04]You don't even have to.
[3:05]I wanted to call it weight.
[3:08]Like, W A I wait.
[3:10]Yep, because I was thinking it's about a restaurant and these people have been waiting for the comes to in the world series and waiting for so many things in their life.
[3:19]And I just thought it was simple and very clever.
[3:21]And everyone around me, coming like, oh, I don't think so.
[3:25]So finally, I gave in. Yeah.
[3:28]Or even waiters.
[3:29]Waiters. Yeah. Oh, that would be good to play a little more.
[3:33]See, you should have been on the meeting.
[3:34]That implies everything people who were waiting for us.
[3:40]But also, anyway, that's that's funny.
[3:43]Well, maybe go back and tell everybody about the premise of this book and where you came up with this idea, how you came up with this idea.
[3:51]And then I really also want to know, you know, how you became an author originally.
[3:56]I know you're already a best-selling author before this book, but I want to hear about your whole journey.
[4:00]So start with this book.
[4:02]Perfect. So this book, I have known for a long time. I wanted to write a book set in a restaurant. That was just sort of that was the original idea.
[4:09]There wasn't really anything specific with it. I probably since I worked in a restaurant. I just think it's there's so much potential for gossip and tension.
[4:16]And then I loved surveying. I loved, you know, I was young and we were all around the same age. It was just really fun.
[4:22]Wait, what restaurant did you work in and where?
[4:24]Oh, it was called, it's called Happings on Arms and it's outside of Chicago, the North suburbs.
[4:29]And they have a huge patio. So in the summer, they hire like 50 additional servers.
[4:35]And so it's all kids in college and around the high school. You know, so it is, it was really fun.
[4:41]We had quite a good time. And I have a lot of good friends that I've met from that restaurant.
[4:46]But so that was the idea. And then it sort of started to gel. I think I was I was kind of jotting down ideas when I was finishing the whole polls. And I knew I wanted it to be in Chicago.
[4:58]I kind of knew the family. And then when the Cubs won the world series. So the book is about, you know, a restaurant family, the Sullivan's the restaurant is called Sullivan's very original.
[5:10]And it's outside Chicago and Oak Park, Illinois, which is not the suburbs where I grew up, but I have a good friend who lives there now. And it takes place in 2017 right after the Cubs have won the world series.
[5:21]The paycheck of the family dies and then Trump is elected. And so they're just kind of like what happened in those two weeks and they're sort of just reeling from it.
[5:30]And it was funny. I didn't plan to write about any of those things in the original book. The page here actually was live the whole time.
[5:39]But when the Cubs won the world series, I thought I do want to put that in. That's so fun. I just have this feeling this family would be huge Cubs fans. I'm a huge Cubs fan.
[5:49]I just thought it was like a fun Chicago thing. But I couldn't put that in without talking about the election. And then it really did take over a little a little bit more than I meant it to it was kind of crept its way in.
[6:01]So it's just about them sort of dealing with these two weeks that they feel like sort of just changed everything. And yeah, that's that's the premise.
[6:10]And I think that's the other books where they all published by Canop.
[6:13]I've had the same editor and publisher the whole time. So that I feel very lucky about because we get along quite well. Yeah.
[6:20]Is Jenny Jackson your editor or somebody else.
[6:22]Yeah.
[6:23]Yeah.
[6:24]Wait. So go back to you getting your start professionally.
[6:29]Yeah. So I went to I mean, I'm sure you know this too because I feel like you can always tell when people want to be writers because they're huge readers and it's sort of, you know, I'm sure you felt the same way.
[6:41]It's like you have this love for it and you want to do it, but you don't always know how to do it.
[6:45]Yes.
[6:46]I took a bunch of writing classes in college, but there was one that I took with Steve on and who just actually published a book this summer as well.
[6:53]And I mean, he's published a ton of books, but he just published a novel.
[6:56]He was great because it was a fiction class and he was really good at giving practical advice for how to be a writer, which I had never know and have had ever told me those things before.
[7:07]So he kind of laid it out. He talked about the pros and cons of grad school jobs. You could have that we're writing adjacent.
[7:14]And I think that was when I really started to think I want to do this and I'm going to figure out how to do it.
[7:20]So I ended up going to grad school a couple years later in New York in the new school at the new school, which I loved.
[7:27]I met my best writing friend who this book is dedicated to because we.
[7:32]changed writing and emails all day long.
[7:35]And it was great for me, but I write after grad school was kind of stopped writing a little bit. I was working at Conde and asked and one, I liked that job and two.
[7:45]I think I was a little shell shocked from grad school like I had learned so much and then I was kind of frozen.
[7:51]But while I was working at Conde and asked.
[7:53]Portfolio, which is short lived, but it plays into the story.
[7:58]I started writing my first book Girls and my dresses and I would write it at that point, my job.
[8:03]I kind of had to wait to sign off on things that came back from fact checking and production.
[8:07]So there was always like a time in the afternoon evening when people had left, but I was still there and my work was done.
[8:14]And I finally started writing again and it was like those, it was probably like an hour or two each night that I was writing in my office and all of a sudden and for a while, I just told myself this is just fun.
[8:26]I'm just practicing. I'm just getting back into it.
[8:28]And then there was a point when I was like, Oh, this is a book and I can't lie to myself anymore.
[8:34]And so it was probably three quarters of the way done and portfolio folded.
[8:39]And we had to be out of the office and I've never, I mean, they gave us two days, but I was so panicked because all I could think was my book is on my computer, which is not mine, but you know, you start to think it is yours.
[8:50]So we had some severance because they had laid everyone off.
[8:54]And that was when I was really scared and finished my first book and got an agent and I think I was motivated by so much fear because I just sort of thought, this is my, this is it, this is now or never.
[9:07]And so that was how I finished my first book and I've probably never been as productive again in my life.
[9:13]Wow. And then you just sold it to enough. I mean, that's amazing. And by the way, and I've been a huge reader my whole life, too. And as you probably know, but I until I got into the publishing industry more.
[9:25]I didn't know exactly the reputations of all the different publishers and imprints and publishers.
[9:30]I don't think anyone that's out of it does it.
[9:34]Yeah, I never thought to look at who published the book, it was only about the book and the author and the story and whatever.
[9:40]But now that I am much more acquainted with, with all the different publishers, like for me, like can off it's like that the gold medal of the literary novel, right.
[9:50]The, this like beacon of beautiful writing and just like amazing literary work, honestly. So were you over the moon.
[10:00]Like tell me about like was it was was that always the type of writing you wanted to do in that sort of jump, you know, bucket, if you will, and was that the publisher you're after like how did how is that affected your writing on going or is it just like a perfect.
[10:15]marrying of genre, do you know, even know what I'm asking.
[10:18]Yeah, no, I know exactly what you're asking that's a good question. I mean, I think I would have been thrilled with so many I was so thrilled. I mean, it's such like a story quickly. You walk into that building.
[10:29]And if you love books, there's no way that you I probably even if you don't love books, you just feel like oh there's so much that's happened here, so many people have come before so.
[10:39]I did I was I was very, very over the moon, because especially because I you know my writing, especially girls who I dress is I think I think it could be marketed certain way, you know, I think that there's different ways and I always felt like I loved.
[10:54]being there I love the way that their books look, which I know, but yeah, it is such a funny thing don't you sometimes think before, because I think back to before I paid attention to all of that or before I even knew all of that.
[11:06]And it seems so innocent that you just went into bookstore and I had no idea what was out or you know now I'm sure you know once in advance and you know the reputations of the publishers and the editors and all of that.
[11:16]But yeah, I was just I was very, very, I was just thrilled I mean yeah and my editor is my age I think you've met her yeah and yeah and she had published Courtney Sullivan who I know you know who I adore and has become a really good writing friend of mine just because she had like gone before me so she just kept she still is giving me tips, but so it was like I knew I just felt like it was such a good fit all around and yeah and it has been.
[11:47]Yeah, and it's funny because it does when I tell this story now and that was however many years ago 11 or 12 years ago, it seems like it all happened really easily, but it didn't feel that easy at the time and I do know now like looking at friends and colleagues that it does much more often take longer it just is funny when you're in the middle of it, it doesn't feel like it.
[12:09]What still feels like this is taking forever I'm never going to do this so just throw that out there yeah I completely relate to that yeah.
[12:19]And then so tell me we give it give like a brief synopsis for everybody about your other books, if you don't mind.
[12:25]girls who I dresses is I believe what it on the cover it says a novel and stories so it's connected short stories which I love I was very inspired by the girls guide to hunting and fishing to.
[12:37]yeah and it's about a group of friends in their 20s in New York just sort of dealing with everything that happens with that each another title I did not mean to keep but that's what it was called for so long and then it just came with it.
[12:50]And then the smart one is a family story it's about three adult children who move home in the same year offer different reasons and just have they're dealing with that there's a wedding that's been called off there's a secret there's a there's a lot happening.
[13:03]The hopeful is set in DC which is where I live now and it's about two young couples that become friends both of the husbands have aspirations to run for office and I think.
[13:17]With that one DC is a very interesting place, but I think I was trying to figure out why anyone would want to run for office and sort of what it is that.
[13:26]calls people to run like what the peel is I think I was trying to figure that out and just right through some of the personalities that I see and so and then marrying the ketchup so that's the fourth one.
[13:37]Well, why do you live in DC because I has been works in politics, because of the state department yeah, and so we moved here he worked the Obama administration so we were here for about nine years and then we left for a few years and then we're back.
[13:52]yeah yeah a lot of moving amazing well how you write a lot about families and family dynamics and and even here with Gretchen and it's like why what is it that intrigues you the most about.
[14:07]The interior lives of family members and all the the inner dramas of people like why do you think you're called to that I thought about this a lot because it's funny when the more that you write and you think like oh i'm drawn to the same topics but you're not.
[14:23]You know you're not thinking about it when you're doing that I think family interests me because.
[14:29]You can't and I mean this is a nice way get away from them you know it's like they know you often I mean I the families I write about I think are mostly.
[14:41]You know trying the best they can to love each other right like there everyone has false but there's no big breaks in the family that I've written families I've written about they're all sort of like imperfectly trying to support each other and I just think it's interesting.
[14:56]I've told a brothers and I mean we don't we don't fight anymore I was just telling some of the story but there is something super interesting about if I did ever fight with them we did there the only people I never would apologize to we would just pick because it's sort of like you don't have to like we already you know and I just think it's interesting I think the way that families define you I mean the smart one was a lot about.
[15:21]When you're in a family and you're pulled you know whether it's out loud or just sort of because of the way you're treated that you are a certain way if you're the smart one if you're you know if you're outgoing if you're quiet sort of what that does to you I just always been really interested in it yeah.
[15:39]It is I love reading about families probably for the I do too reading you know it's like endlessly yeah I don't need to try I mean I like reading all different types of things but but all those inner workings because obviously we all have a family of some kind yeah another thing you have a comment it's like you know everybody has that you know they're all different all different shapes and sizes but it always sort of makes you reflect on your own and also growing up I mean I just interviewed the sky yesterday and he's like I thought.
[16:09]it was normal growing up that you know I basically never saw my parents and I lost touch with them like you lost touch with your like how do you lose touch is your parents but yeah I can't even go down the street my mother's like I was just out for a walk I just have to be by your house and I was like mom.
[16:24]Anyway that's the other thing is like you think everything is what what is around you is normal and then whatever like that's your framework for going out into the world it's fascinating yeah crazy.
[16:35]What what are you are yeah now I'm just starting to work on a new book that takes place that I hesitate to even call it a book a country club.
[16:48]And this one is a little bit more there's like a big.
[16:52]inciting incident that happens at the very beginning of it so I don't know if you can tell from my books my books tend to be the characters always come to me and then it's sort of.
[17:02]think I could me and her with them for years in a book before I'm like oh is this what we should write about so.
[17:09]a little bit more intentional about this one that there is this big event that starts it off and so far it's fun I just it's I think it's an interesting.
[17:17]thing to sort of explore as.
[17:20]Again, everything that's happening around us like to choose to be a part of a place i'm trying to say this carefully because I you know it's it's not I don't mean to say it in such a.
[17:31]judgmental way because I part of why I wanted to write about this is because I know and love people who still you know we grew up in these places and they are still there a place that is so.
[17:42]not aligned with your own beliefs anymore, but but it holds a special place in your heart because you kind of grew up there so that's that's sort of in the background of all of it that's not really what what happens there's a lot of funny stuff that happens in the book.
[17:57]That's awesome i'm feeling like almost like a dirty dancing vibe ish or something oh my god I wish that's amazing I hope I mean I do because there are like families that come together, yes, oh i'm going to use that as a cop because who wouldn't pick that up.
[18:14]can you say yeah where there's like a lot of history with the families and then the children yeah yeah.
[18:18]Mr Freeland has a book last summer at the golden hotel have you read that no, but i'm writing it down you should be sure yeah that was that's it's similar to like a dirty dancing thing with like families in the Catskills that they have a story goals with hell and it goes out of it's going out of business and what do they.
[18:35]and you know what are the grand kit you know what is all what do all the different people have to do the same thing and but it's the same sort of vibe ish anyway check it out.
[18:44]I want to thank you that's correct that's what else is like if you're directly know it's amazing I think that's part of like being in the writing world and like we get to talk about books all the time.
[18:54]people recommend books you get them early it's amazing I know this one came out this one came out like that's I think, but I do love that part about the writing world and it is funny I feel like maybe I should write an article about this now that we're talking about like what it used to be to go into a bookstore and what it is now yeah and is it better.
[19:10]I know and it's I don't know because I do have like memories of just stumbling upon books you know and again now it's like you know a year in advance probably more that a book by an author you love is coming out and I do feel like there was just more it was like oh this is out it's still pretty I'll buy it it looks like this looks amazing I know it is very different also Instagram too and I guess also I'm much more of an Instagram person but like you know you do watch them finishing the sentences on the.
[19:39]You know like just here's my last page like and I'm like oh great and then you see you're along for the riot in a different way, but now there's so much about the industry like I didn't know that books came out on Tuesdays why would I know or care about that I didn't know that until honestly right before my book came out and I was like what that's weird that's a weird rule right.
[20:00]I started, I know. I'm like, I don't want my books to come out on Tuesdays. Like, why?
[20:06]Why can't I just take my date? So anyway, although my book came out on July 1st.
[20:10]So I guess some people can change it up, but if you're Amazon or whatever. Anyway.
[20:15]Okay, advice to aspiring authors. Oh, I have so much.
[20:18]I think my main advice is just knowing just like reminding yourself that well,
[20:24]one, this is my most important things. I think this is what stopped me from writing for
[20:28]so long. Do you have this idea in your head? And it's amazing. And then when you try to write it down,
[20:33]it's awful. And just knowing that's just like a very normal part of the process.
[20:37]And you just have to get it down and figure it out later. And then also just
[20:41]knowing that no one is perfect at this. And I was about to say no one is good at this
[20:46]right away, but like, it's, you still have to practice and learn. I think people sometimes
[20:50]think writing is different than other jobs or other things where it's like you just are
[20:55]born knowing how to do this. And that's not true. Like you get so much better,
[20:59]the more that you read, the more that you try. And I do think people and by people,
[21:03]I mean, I'm sure I have this too. Like you get so frustrated because you think like,
[21:08]I want to do this and it's not, you know, it's not great, but you can always make your draft
[21:13]better. You can always make your next book better. Like it just is, it's a skill.
[21:16]An patch. It has this great essay about it where she talks about like, why is it any different
[21:21]than playing an instrument? You have to put in the hours. And I just really love reminding
[21:26]people of that because I think we forget. And so, you know, writing something that's not
[21:30]perfect is great because it means you're practicing and just knowing you can make it better
[21:35]because my first drafts are, I call them garbage drafts because I think people would be like,
[21:39]what is this? Like, I don't know, I'll figure it out in the next five drafts. Yeah.
[21:43]It is funny. I'm like, what other profession? I mean, I guess you said music or whatever,
[21:48]do you have to just like do so much? Because it takes so long. And then you have to throw it
[21:54]all out just to get to where you're, it's like the most bizarre. I don't know. Maybe like finding
[22:00]a recipe. Maybe it's maybe a chef coming up with the perfect recipe. You have to make your batch
[22:04]after batch or something. I know. I just, it's funny too when you think about all the words that
[22:12]are thrown out, you know, and it's like, you just have to be like, that never happened. I'm not
[22:16]even thinking about it. And the lie that you tell yourself with each new thing, you started like,
[22:19]this time it's gonna be different, right? Like this time I've learned a lot. So I won't throw out
[22:24]500 pages of the character's childhood. It's never going to make it in the book.
[22:29]It would be funny. Like if there was, if there literally was like the land of discarded draft,
[22:34]you know what I mean? Like all these stories go that never come out anywhere else. You know,
[22:39]no, like what what would that world look like? Anyway, whatever. I'm going on.
[22:43]Are you reading anything good? And if so, what? I am. I just started lessons in chemistry, which I'm
[22:48]really liking. And then one of my friends, Megan Angelo, who I think you interviewed too,
[22:53]she wrote followers, but she has a new, I mean, it's, it's like a word document I'm looking at
[22:58]at my computer right now. And that's my plan for this week because I had, so I'm so excited. I started
[23:03]it earlier this week. And then I'm teaching as well. So I, I wasn't able to get to it. And I'm
[23:09]very excited to get to it. I interviewed her right before the pandemic. I feel like I feel like
[23:14]that was one of my last. I think you did. Yeah, she came into the city one of my last in person
[23:20]things before the world changed. But anyway, that's exciting. What are you reading? Yeah,
[23:24]bug. I don't know. Mary, the catch up. I don't even know what am I going to read for next week.
[23:30]I'm just trying to get through today. What am I reading next week? Like looking over,
[23:34]I don't know what am I reading at your piles of books. I know I only read based on my calendar now
[23:39]I do this. It's like how I choose. I'll tell you what I'm going to be reading because I'm
[23:43]going to see who I'm interviewing in Monday. I am going to be reading. Hold on. I mean, I'm an
[23:48]April on my calendar. So that's not, that's not how big it is. Let's see. I am going to be reading
[23:56]Kylie Letty's book, which it's called the perfect other Kylie Letty perfect other the perfect
[24:06]other. So I better get to that because obviously I haven't started. So that's what I'm doing later
[24:10]today. But I don't know. I'm always, I'm so lucky to read such great stuff all the time. Like
[24:14]looks like yours. Thank you. Well, it was nice to meet you. And it was so nice to meet you. I've
[24:19]heard so many wonderful things about you. And I love this podcast. And yeah, congratulations again
[24:24]on your book. That's very exciting. I did an event by the way last night at Planet Word. Have
[24:28]you been there? It's in Washington, D.C., you have to go. No, wait, where is it? It opened
[24:33]two years ago or something. And it's all about the written word. It's all about language.
[24:38]Yeah, go check it out. All right. Okay. Thank you so much. Thanks.
[24:43]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't
[24:47]forget to follow me on Instagram at Zebioans and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[24:52]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zebioans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots
[24:57]of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for
[25:02]The Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this
[25:06]fantastic intro and outro music.