Kirsten Miller, THE CHANGE: A Novel
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[1:13]Kristen Miller is the author of the change
[1:16]Kristen is a groundbreaking feminist author in why a literature best known for her popular kiki strike series in addition to writing novels
[1:24]Kristen spent 25 years as a strategist in the advertising industry during that time
[1:29]She worked for some of the largest agencies in the world as well as boutique agencies and an eight-person startup
[1:35]She's proud to have quit at least two of these jobs over ads and incidents described in the change
[1:40]The change was a good morning america book club pick for May of 2022
[1:45]Welcome, Kirsten. Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss the change
[1:50]Oh, thank you for having me. I saw you had Dean Kunst the other night each other day
[1:56]He's the reason I don't sleep at the sleep at the lights on these days
[2:03]All of this books when I was probably 10 or 11 and yeah, it's uh it worked me
[2:08]Oh, man. I know that's how my brother was about Stephen King
[2:11]He like that's how he got into reading actually
[2:13]It was interesting what turns people on to like you know not being able to put books down
[2:18]Like great. You sometimes people you different things. Yeah, absolutely. Stephen King being our kids. They're they're great for getting started
[2:26]Yeah, actually. I had the most fascinating conversation with him about publishing in general. Anyway, you should listen to the
[2:32]I will I will that was it. It's on my on my to-do list
[2:35]No, I it's like presumptuous
[2:37]I mean you're in the middle of the massive book tour and everything
[2:40]But it was interesting how he he moved over to Amazon publishing and how the
[2:44]The the change in format from mass market paperbacks how the ripple effects of that have really affected the whole industry
[2:50]Anyway, I found it really interesting. Yeah, but back to you
[2:54]Okay, so for people who aren't familiar with your book the change and congratulations on
[2:59]Think picked for GMA book club and all of that. What can you tell them about the change?
[3:04]Yeah, so it's about three women who have gotten into their late 40s around my age and they have discovered that
[3:13]You know with this age they have developed sort of unusual powers and there is Harriet who has been
[3:22]You know kicked out of her job her husband has left and she has vanished into her beautiful modern house and everyone assumes that
[3:29]She's been eaten by cats, but she hasn't she's actually been undergoing a metamorphosis and
[3:35]Sort of learning that she can do things with nature that other people can't and then there's Joe who is filled with right
[3:43]And and hot flashes and all of that sort of stuff
[3:45]Yeah, she learns that she can control all of that she can control the sort of the fire and the fury within her and use it
[3:54]To her own advantage
[3:55]And then there's Nessa who's husband has died and her two daughters are off at school
[4:01]And her life has become so quiet
[4:03]She realizes that she can hear the dead and the three of these women meet each other and they
[4:09]Discovered the body of a teenage girl who's been dumped on the side of the highway and they refuse to accept the official
[4:17]Narrative about her death and instead go looking for her killer
[4:21]So
[4:23]It's a little bit crazy, but it's a lot of fun. I think where did this come from in your leg?
[4:29]Okay from the beginning with all these different characters. How did you piece this all together?
[4:35]Inspiration all of it. Oh my god. I mean, there were so many ins, but I feel like when I'm writing
[4:39]I feel like a bird
[4:40]Collecting little pieces of string from here and a little bit of tinsel from there and a little bit of you know
[4:45]Shiny sparkly stuff from somewhere else and putting it together into a big nest. So
[4:49]It's never I can never pinpoint one inspiration, but I can tell you I was really mad
[4:57]I mean, you know, there's a story that's told about
[5:01]You know when women reach their late 40s early 50s and you know society
[5:06]No longer has much of a need for you and
[5:10]I think that that's absolutely ridiculous
[5:12]And I looked around at all of my friends and all of the women my age that I knew and thought these are women who are smarter or experienced
[5:21]You know gorgeous like you know more
[5:24]economically self-sufficient than you know
[5:27]They've ever been in their entire lives. Why are we being told that's time to step aside?
[5:33]This is our best
[5:35]So I really wanted to rewrite that narrative and present this kind of life as as what it is
[5:41]You know the most powerful time in a woman's life
[5:44]I could not agree more in fact
[5:46]I'm often saying this because so many authors right in their 40s 50s
[5:50]Like this is the time right the kids are a little older for those people who have kids
[5:55]You're you've come into your own of who you are as a person
[5:59]You hopefully not going to have like many decades left to live and it's like go
[6:06]I think it's great. I think you should get a letter on your 40th birthday like
[6:10]Hold on to your hat like it lives about to take off. I totally agree
[6:15]I think you know, it's it's funny because I had a friend who turned 50 a few years ago
[6:19]And I read her this long birthday card and it was basically about you know
[6:23]You've reached the age where you know who you are. Yes. No, what you're doing
[6:28]There is nothing stopping you. Yes. Do it
[6:32]And I really feel that way. So that was that was one of the biggest influences
[6:36]I just I wanted to rewrite that narrative
[6:39]11 meanwhile when you were describing Hannah in her you know modern house
[6:45]Oh Harriet. Yeah. I'm sorry Harriet
[6:48]Harriet at first I was like oh, she must be like I don't know
[6:52]70 80 years old you were like with the hair flying and you know, and then and I'm like wait
[6:57]She's supposed to be at her 40s. You know impossible
[7:02]Anyway, I guess it could be a surprise like you know
[7:05]Yes, building up to sort of you're expecting a certain kind of woman because that's what you've been trained to expect right
[7:11]Yes, and then she opens the door and it's somebody very very very different behind it
[7:17]And I think you know, it's it's it's kind of a shocking revelation for a lot of people who have been expecting this little old lady
[7:25]Because that's how
[7:26]Society often treats women in their late 40s and no, here's this vibrant
[7:32]You know wild
[7:34]amazing woman who's you know been in the house
[7:38]Having a lot of fun
[7:41]It's like it was it's sort of like COVID right
[7:43]You haven't seen someone in so long, and then they finally opened their doors again, and uh
[7:48]I loved this whole section about
[7:50]Rosement can I read a little piece of it. Yeah. Yes
[7:54]People always said they couldn't imagine what she had gone through
[7:57]Rosema knew they weren't being sincere of course they could fucking imagine it what I'm sorry for the cursing
[8:03]My kids were listening what happened to her was their worst nightmare you get right to the brink of glory and fame
[8:08]The girl who takes your cash at the supermarket loses her shit when she realizes that's you on the cover of people
[8:13]Magazine famous brands literally beg to sponsor you Nike has a campaign just waiting to roll
[8:18]You've got your own line of swimsuits and laundry ready to launch right after the games
[8:22]Then poof one day you slip on a patch of ice and tear a ligament suddenly everything you've worked for your whole life is gone
[8:28]Of course people could imagine it they just didn't want to because no one wants to admit their world is that fragile
[8:34]No one wants to think that unless in a year
[8:36]They could go from being America's sweetheart to a drug adult drunk
[8:40]But they could Rosema never bothered to point that out. She was content to sink into her own private abyss
[8:46]She didn't crave anyone else's company
[8:50]Love that
[8:52]Yeah, interesting character. You're the first person that I've spoken to about the book who's brought her up
[8:58]I think I've always she's
[9:00]I wouldn't say she's one of my favorite characters, but she's I think one of more interesting characters
[9:05]Yes, you know, I think
[9:08]You know, it's there there are women in this book who go out and hunt down
[9:15]Ebo doers and
[9:17]Seat vengeance and then there are women who are not able to do that for one reason or other or refuse to be that
[9:24]So I really wanted to make sure that it wasn't just we're just presenting
[9:29]Men is bad, which I definitely don't believe and women is all good
[9:33]But really everybody is sort of a mixture and she's one of the women who
[9:38]Yeah, who's you know a little bit more unfortunate than the three main characters
[9:44]And I love this whole notion of like people saying they can't imagine it because people say that all the time right
[9:49]I mean this is so common and
[9:52]I think it's just people just don't know what to say right people
[9:55]Often say the wrong things when they're just completely at a loss and yet all
[10:00]it does is make you feel even worse.
[10:02]Like, not only has this bad thing happened,
[10:05]but it's so bad that you can't imagine this.
[10:08]Like, it's almost like, you know, I don't know.
[10:11]It's just more offensive, I feel like.
[10:13]Yeah.
[10:14]One of the other alternatives were responses.
[10:17]Like, I'm sorry, or that must have been terrible,
[10:20]or tell me about that, or.
[10:23]Yeah, I've heard some of you talking about,
[10:25]even if it was in the context of talking to kids,
[10:27]and they were like, just acknowledge that it sucks.
[10:30]Yeah, you know, whatever it is,
[10:31]just acknowledge that it's terrible.
[10:33]You don't have to find an answer for it.
[10:35]You don't have to, you know, it's just,
[10:38]just think bad things happen.
[10:40]And sometimes we just need other people to nod their heads
[10:43]along and say, yeah, yeah, it was cold.
[10:46]Yeah.
[10:48]I like this whole idea of letting yourself go.
[10:52]Because like, what does that even really mean?
[10:54]Like, where are we going?
[10:56]And what are we letting go of?
[10:59]And who are we keeping it all in check for?
[11:03]Yeah, well, I think as women, we have historically,
[11:08]hopefully it's loosening up a bit.
[11:11]But, you know, we've lived by a lot of rules.
[11:13]You know, whether, I mean, societal rules,
[11:16]like internal rules, all of these there,
[11:18]you know, we're supposed to look a certain way,
[11:20]we're supposed to dress a certain way.
[11:21]We're supposed to act a certain way.
[11:23]We're supposed to, you know, we shouldn't be too bitchy.
[11:25]We shouldn't be too bitchy.
[11:27]And at some point, and I think that this is an age
[11:30]where it becomes very, very clear by,
[11:32]there's absolutely no reason.
[11:34]And the minute you free yourself from all of that,
[11:37]and you do what makes you feel good,
[11:39]instead of what you think you ought to do
[11:40]for this everyone else's civic,
[11:42]you know, it's incredibly liberating.
[11:45]You know, any of more time and you have more energy
[11:48]and you have, you know, more confidence than you did before.
[11:51]Yeah, I think I'm a huge proponent of,
[11:53]I'm not saying, like, let it go, like, you know.
[11:56]Yeah, no, it's not even sour.
[11:59]It's just sort of, you know, you do what you want to do,
[12:02]instead of what you think you have to.
[12:04]Wait, so now I'm just so curious about your own life.
[12:08]Because you seem so, you know, well, tell me about your,
[12:10]just tell me more about your own life,
[12:12]and some of the choices you've made,
[12:13]because you're like such a badass, right?
[12:15]You're just like, oh, well, yeah, thank you.
[12:17]Well, I was in advertising for 25 years.
[12:20]A lot of Harriet's career is taken directly for mine.
[12:24]I actually, I worked in advertising for a little while.
[12:26]I worked at Ogleby and May there and Yung and Rubikim.
[12:29]I worked at Ogleby and May there for a couple of years as well.
[12:33]Oh, thank you, yeah.
[12:34]Wait, we can talk about that off.
[12:35]Okay, anyway.
[12:36]Yeah, and it's, you know, I mean, as you know,
[12:40]it's a world that on the surface looks very open to women,
[12:46]and once you get into it, it often is not at all.
[12:50]You know, so I spent a lot of time in the corporate world
[12:53]really banging my head against a lot of walls,
[12:56]in which job function were you in?
[12:58]I was an account, I was a strategist and account planner.
[13:01]Oh, yeah, that's what I was doing.
[13:03]I really, I was an intern.
[13:05]This is like forever ago.
[13:06]I was an intern in college and then again during business school,
[13:09]but I loved account planning.
[13:10]I thought, oh my God, it's so much fun.
[13:12]I had like, everybody's like, oh, every time.
[13:15]Every time it was great.
[13:17]The actual job itself, I loved, like I loved the detected work of it.
[13:21]I loved the writing, you know, of it.
[13:25]I loved putting together gorgeous presentations.
[13:28]I love that.
[13:29]It was sort of the, you know, it was, it was the
[13:35]politics of it and of gender politics of it that were, you know,
[13:39]especially since what annoyed the hell out of me,
[13:42]you know, more than anything was
[13:45]we're selling stuff to women.
[13:48]Women buy almost everything.
[13:52]And, you know, so it's very, very hard to sit back and, you know,
[13:56]talk to a creative director who's like a 35 year old,
[13:59]you know, dude, you know, who's telling you that, you know,
[14:04]that he knows better than you do what, you know, a woman of your age is,
[14:10]you know, looking for and face-free.
[14:13]So anyway, so that was, but, you know, so I spent a lot of time doing that.
[14:17]Writing really became, I started writing in my first book came out in 2006.
[14:22]It was a young adult series called Kiki Strike,
[14:26]which is about six delinquent Girl Scouts who discover an underground city,
[14:30]Benique Manhattan.
[14:31]And it was very, very, it was pure girl power,
[14:34]which at the time was unusual.
[14:36]We've got a lot more thankfully, a lot more,
[14:39]sort of strong, you know, girl power of slash feminist stuff for young women now,
[14:45]but at the time it was pretty new.
[14:46]And that became, you know, I did both for a long time and then gradually,
[14:53]you know, started doing more of the writing full-time.
[14:57]Hi, that's not, that's our house guest.
[14:59]So that's okay.
[15:00]I'm looking in the worst place, imagine.
[15:02]It's pretty good, but it's pretty, it's fine.
[15:05]No, it's my fault.
[15:06]Anyone can walk by.
[15:07]I've made it, it's totally fine with them.
[15:09]I was just thinking you have fun.
[15:10]It would be if you had like a big foot costume.
[15:12]Yeah, right.
[15:15]It's completely my fault.
[15:17]Anyway, so yeah, that's, you know, so that's my,
[15:21]that's my career story.
[15:23]Wow.
[15:23]So then why pivot to like, I don't even know,
[15:27]women's fiction sense is like the worst word, but why, why a novel,
[15:31]why for grown-ups.
[15:33]Well, I spent a lot of time writing books with the actor,
[15:36]Jason Siegel, who I love.
[15:37]And had a wonderful time of it, but when I came out of it,
[15:41]you know, I didn't, you know, working with somebody else's,
[15:44]I mean, I'm not going to say it's difficult because we're doing
[15:46]what's wonderful, but it's a different experience.
[15:48]And so I came out of that and I thought,
[15:50]I really want to do something for myself.
[15:54]And I really want to do something that I feel very, very strongly about and passionate
[15:59]because I do have a lot of, you know, detailed beliefs and it went back to my
[16:04]origins.
[16:04]I went back to sort of the girl power, you know, stuff that I started writing in the first place.
[16:10]And instead of writing a book for the 12-year-old me,
[16:13]I wrote a book for the 49-year-old me because, you know,
[16:17]I think there's a, it's not like I'm a perfect messenger, but I do feel like
[16:23]there's a lot that women my age need to hear, you know?
[16:26]It's, it's things have changed, you know, and yet we're still absorbing and believing
[16:32]all of this bullshit that's from like, who knows dates back from, you know, the 1950s.
[16:39]And it's something for us to move on and, you know, recognize that we're,
[16:43]literally the most powerful generation of women to ever exist on the planet
[16:48]and to make use of that power and to change things for the better.
[16:52]Do you think we could organize ourselves a little better?
[16:55]I feel like that's the, we don't have like a cohesive group of people.
[17:00]Yeah, I think I'm more than anything.
[17:02]I was thinking about this in the day.
[17:04]What I would really love to see is I would love to see maybe it will be you.
[17:10]I'm looking for like a female, like a female talk radio slash podcast person
[17:15]who is as popular among women as Joe Rogan is around among men.
[17:20]You know, somebody who, you know, I'm not saying I'm a huge fan of Joe Rogan, but like,
[17:25]you know, somebody who can speak to everyone and, you know, is, you know, is able to discuss subjects
[17:34]in a way that people want to hear about.
[17:36]And I think that's really, really important.
[17:38]I'm happy to be the most popular podcast or on earth.
[17:41]Yeah, I know what I could do, you know.
[17:44]This is like, you know, this is, I, you know, whatever,
[17:46]Joe Rogan's controversial, but, you know, I've listened to a couple of this podcast,
[17:51]I'm not a huge fan, but I do know people who are huge fans.
[17:54]And, you know, what they talk about are, oh, I listened to Joe Rogan the other day
[17:58]and I learned all about climbing mountains.
[18:01]You know, or I learned all about, you know, this better the other.
[18:05]And I really think there's a space for women to do that, particularly since there's so many
[18:10]issues that have never been talked about.
[18:14]Like what?
[18:15]My mother, growing up, my mother maybe uttered the word menopause once
[18:21]and it was not in reference to her, you know, and that's, this was a woman who would have
[18:26]felt free to talk about literally anything.
[18:28]But for some reason, that subject was provoked and I think that's real shame.
[18:33]And there are a lot of those issues, you know, I think it's, you know, even around the whole
[18:39]abortion issue, there's so much that people don't know that you just need great
[18:44]for somebody to explain.
[18:45]Yeah.
[18:46]So I think that's communications.
[18:48]We've done a poor job of that in many ways.
[18:51]And I think that could make a huge difference.
[18:55]All right.
[18:55]I'll just start talking about menopause.
[18:57]We'll see what happens.
[19:02]Yeah.
[19:03]Good luck.
[19:03]I'll share.
[19:04]You get the listeners and I would say if it takes off,
[19:08]I'm sure people are really eager to hear about it.
[19:11]Okay.
[19:11]Wait, tell me about the process of writing this book.
[19:14]This is like, there's so many characters and there's, I mean, this is like a hefty undertaking.
[19:21]This is not just like, you know, I mean, this is complex.
[19:25]How did you do this?
[19:26]How did you structure it?
[19:27]How did you, how long did it take like, give me the backstory?
[19:31]So I started writing the, you know, there's, there's a very simple narrative
[19:36]that strings all together, which is, you know, these women find the body and they set out
[19:40]to find the killer of this girl.
[19:42]And along the way, other things happen.
[19:44]So there's like a very, very simple narrative.
[19:47]But along the way, you meet a lot of different women.
[19:51]And when I initially, I've had the same agent for, you know, 16 years.
[19:57]And she's extremely honest with you.
[20:00]me. I did the way where I sent her something the other day. She was like, just work on
[20:06]something else. I was like, and yeah, it's, but you know, we have that kind of relationship. So
[20:09]it's fine. And she told me she was like, I really love this, but I want to know more about
[20:15]Harriet and Joe, because initially the, you know, that's why Ness's backstory is sort of woven
[20:20]in that simple narrative because I always saw her as the lead character. And my agent said,
[20:26]I want to know more about Harriet and Joe. So I went back and I started writing back stories
[20:30]from Harriet and Joe. And as I was doing it, I just, I was like, why I had, those were so much
[20:37]fun to write and so cathartic for me personally, because that's where a lot of these issues,
[20:43]you know, are brought up in dealt with, whether it's, you know, the sexism and advertising or,
[20:49]you know, things that women face and other at first the work world. And so I love writing those
[20:55]and I thought, I wouldn't want to know more about every woman that's encountered in this book.
[21:03]So literally, I think every woman that you need or every even remotely consequential woman
[21:11]that you meet has her own backstory chapter. And some of them are really short. I think there's
[21:16]one that's only a page long, but you get to know who these women are. And I think it just adds
[21:22]a great deal to the story. And, you know, I'd also added some pages. But I didn't want to,
[21:29]you know, it's, you know, I didn't want to cut anything either. So I know some people are scared
[21:36]of a 400 plus page book, but I promise you it's really fun. It's a quick read. It's really
[21:45]a quick read and it's meant to be. It's not meant to be like, and I'd for in a, you know, it's,
[21:49]I don't, you know, I wanted people to read it and have fun reading it and think about the things
[21:59]that it brings up, you know, yeah, that was my, that was my entire goal.
[22:05]Oh, well done. I feel like you're doing pretty well on that then.
[22:09]Getting over it out. Are you working on anything else?
[22:13]Yeah, so I am working on my next book and it's not a sequel to this, but I wanted to create,
[22:20]I do love the idea of, you know, I, you know, I wouldn't say I'm a huge fan of the Marvel,
[22:27]Marvel Universe, but I do follow it, you know, and I just loved the idea of building this kind of
[22:33]of Marvel Universe of kind of witchy women. So the next book is set in the same town, but it's
[22:42]two different characters. It's focuses on two sisters who have arrived to take care of an old estate
[22:49]that's been left to them by a great, great aunt. And along the way, they meet a couple of, like,
[22:56]Harriet pops in for a minute or two. So you know that you're in the same environment, but it's a completely
[23:02]different story with different characters and, you know, you could start with either book.
[23:06]And I just love that. It's so much fun to play with that because you can make all sorts of little
[23:10]inside jokes, you know, about the town and what they see there and like, you know, next thing,
[23:17]you know, you're going to have like a theme park. That would be awesome, right? Make your own
[23:23]potions there. I can see the whole thing coming, this whole fictitious world and the village and
[23:29]all that, you know, maybe you could have like the characters that you like those automatic
[23:34]things and Disney like, okay, I'll stop it. I'm sorry. Yeah, this is an image. That would be awesome.
[23:40]That would be my dream come true. And what advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[23:47]I think that it's really just about sequential gems used to talk about the secretive success
[23:55]with something called Ask Power. And Ask Power is really just the ability to sit on your
[24:02]butt for long enough for, you know, the inspiration to come because writing is hard, you know,
[24:09]it takes as, I think, determination is as much an essential ingredient as talent. And often,
[24:19]I mean, a lot of people are really talented. You just can't sit still for more than an hour.
[24:24]So you really, you know, it's the combination of those two that end up making it work.
[24:29]I seem to thrive in the sedentary.
[24:34]I have no trouble. I'm gifted in that. I'm gifted. I'm gifted. I'm having trouble actually
[24:40]becoming upright at these days.
[24:43]I know. I know. It's, yeah, I've been on a road trip just recently. And oh my god, I don't think
[24:50]I've walked more than 10 feet. Totally. I'm like, I'm averaging 10 steps a day.
[24:59]But once you're sitting down, writing is another story, you know, it's supposed to just email
[25:04]you're doing whatever else. Yeah, you have to, you sometimes you just have to wait.
[25:10]And, you know, and it can be unpleasant. But when it gets going, it's incredibly rewarding.
[25:18]I always look the part where you, where I go back and read after I've sort of worked on something
[25:23]for a little while and you go back and you read it the first time when it all hangs together.
[25:28]And you get kind of, I can feel the excitement growing because it's like, oh my god, this might
[25:33]actually have worked. This might actually be okay. And then you start adding all the little details.
[25:39]And that's a lot of fun. So cool.
[25:42]Thank you so much. This has been so fun. It's really great to get a chance to chat with you
[25:50]and hear about the change and all of it. And now I'm, my mind is spinning with how to accomplish
[25:58]your goal. Yes, I think you should. All right. Okay, we'll take care. And I can't wait to read
[26:05]the next one. Thank you. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[26:11]to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time
[26:16]to Read Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and
[26:22]meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures
[26:27]Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this
[26:31]fantastic intro and now trim music.