Catie Marron, BECOMING A GARDENER: What Reading and Digging Taught Me About Living
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[1:13]Katie Marin is the author of Becoming a Gardener, what reading and digging taught me about living.
[1:18]Katie is the creator and editor of two anthologies on the value and significance of urban public spaces.
[1:24]City squares, 18 writers on the spirit and significance of squares around the world,
[1:28]and city parks, public places, and private thoughts.
[1:31]She is a trustee and chair emeritus of the New York Public Library where she was chairman of the board.
[1:36]Marin is also a trustee of Friends of the Highline where she was also board chair and a trustee of the Metropolitan Museum of Art
[1:42]and the Doris Duke Charitable Foundation.
[1:44]She was previously an editor for Vogue.
[1:47]Welcome, Katie.
[1:47]Thanks so much for coming.
[1:48]And moms don't have time to read books.
[1:51]Can you hold up your book just for me to say it's so beautiful?
[1:53]I'll post a little clip of this.
[1:54]But becoming a gardener might be the most beautiful book.
[1:57]It could have just been, I'm actually totally curious as to why you formatted it this way,
[2:01]but it is so beautiful because it could have easily just been memoir of sorts, memoir and gardening,
[2:06]Allah, Dominique Browning, but instead is the most beautiful illustrations and photographs and everything.
[2:11]So anyway, welcome and congratulations on this beautiful book.
[2:14]Hey, thank you very much.
[2:16]And what I'd love to say to you is congratulations to you because your book bookends,
[2:21]something I enjoy so much.
[2:24]I read it in two nights and I am not a fast reader.
[2:28]Like I think you and I just, I just say murdered.
[2:32]I say we're the story.
[2:33]I appreciated your openness and your honesty.
[2:37]I just really loved it.
[2:39]And I also love your love of books and how far back that goes.
[2:43]And this is story in my book that's rather similar to that.
[2:46]But it's, I love that.
[2:49]And I will always say to you is the book messenger.
[2:51]Oh, that's really proud of you.
[2:54]Really, brother.
[2:56]Well, that is really nice and made my day completely.
[3:00]Thank you.
[3:01]Thank you for saying that.
[3:02]It's always nice to be able to connect through our stories.
[3:05]Like it's so neat.
[3:06]I can, I write my story.
[3:08]You read it.
[3:08]You write your story.
[3:09]I read it.
[3:10]It's like a fast forward of a whole relationship.
[3:12]It's really neat.
[3:13]Yeah.
[3:14]Well, and also obviously we're both from New York.
[3:16]I can go to New York that I did move to New York City in college.
[3:19]So hearing all those bits and pieces too was fun.
[3:23]Oh, that's amazing.
[3:24]Well, okay.
[3:26]Tell everybody.
[3:27]You moved out of New York.
[3:28]You found this house in Connecticut.
[3:30]You were going to make a garden and then the pandemic hit.
[3:33]And now all of a sudden it's a book.
[3:34]So tell the whole story.
[3:36]Okay.
[3:37]Yes, I would say several years ago our family cell upon really
[3:42]fill upon this house in Connecticut, which had amazing land.
[3:46]And it was a really nice house.
[3:47]So we decided thinking about future generations are two children,
[3:52]having children and all of that.
[3:54]It would be a great house for that.
[3:56]And we decided to buy it.
[3:58]We definitely made it our own very much so.
[4:02]There were some big differences.
[4:04]And yet somehow I felt like I was living in the previous owner
[4:10]there perhaps.
[4:11]And that was a rather uncomfortable feeling for me that I tried
[4:15]different things, such as waiting stage around the doors and windows,
[4:20]which I'd never done before to try to feel better about it.
[4:24]But somehow somehow I couldn't understand why, but it was not working.
[4:28]So then when Maureen, I was walking our dog on an article
[4:32]the morning loop and it dawned in me that if I rooted myself to the land,
[4:37]nearly that would help me root myself to the house.
[4:40]I have always loved gardens.
[4:42]And there was one other inspiration for this book.
[4:44]I'll say in a second, always loved gardens.
[4:48]And right now was the time to make my own for the first time.
[4:53]I'd also just say that at least it's something you'd appreciate
[4:57]because this came in, they both of these concepts came in at the same time.
[5:02]Is I quote, I heard about 10 years ago, and it's from Cicero about 2,000 years ago.
[5:10]And it says if you have a garden and a library, you have all unique.
[5:15]And that quote really caught my attention.
[5:18]I've thought about it many times since I understand.
[5:21]I think some of what he's talking about, I don't understand it fully.
[5:25]But that and me, I'm trying to understand the meaning of gardens is really
[5:31]the gist of the book.
[5:32]I love how you decided to do this rooting experiment.
[5:36]And you turned so much to books as you referenced in how even the quote
[5:40]that you included by Jamaica, Kade, of how she tried to make her first garden
[5:45]and was black and blue.
[5:46]And I don't know, split her thumbs up and something like that.
[5:48]And then she knew she was a gardener.
[5:49]And you're like, yes, that's what I'm going to do.
[5:51]Yeah, that's so totally true.
[5:53]In fact, though, I think that what happened for her is on a mother's day.
[5:58]Her husband gave her all sorts of things, all the tools.
[6:01]And she went out and planted some plants, which she said did not come up.
[6:05]But she said that did not yet make me a gardener.
[6:08]And now she is a gardener.
[6:09]And for me, I think becoming a gardener, a real gardener takes some time.
[6:15]And it takes some experimentation.
[6:17]It's ex-guarding us all of that experimentation on my mind.
[6:20]And that's also, you know, really wanted to become a gardener and understand
[6:25]what it would mean for my life.
[6:26]But it dawned on me in thinking about this.
[6:29]But there is no test I have to take to suddenly become a gardener.
[6:35]I could call myself a gardener, whatever I wanted to.
[6:38]And I call myself any kind of gardener, whatever I wanted to.
[6:41]And that was something great right now.
[6:44]I would call myself a novice gardener.
[6:46]And there's lots to learn, which is one of the exciting things about gardening.
[6:50]Well, there's something about sharing your excitement and enthusiasm
[6:54]for gardening, which is infectious, contagious.
[6:57]I appreciate gardens a lot, obviously, because they're beautiful,
[7:01]but have never been sort of bitten by that bug.
[7:04]But reading your book, especially all the corollaries
[7:06]between the creativity of planting and the creativity involved in writing
[7:11]and words and all sorts of output.
[7:14]And even that you laid out like a set amount of time
[7:17]where you're like, I'm going to be garden in this amount of time
[7:19]and I could get a ton.
[7:21]It seems like somehow an achievable goal that you could actually
[7:25]even no matter how small a little piece of land or a pot or whatever,
[7:29]make a huge difference.
[7:30]And yeah, have things last beyond you, which I think is perhaps
[7:36]at the heart of a lot of things that we do subconsciously.
[7:39]Tell me a little bit more about falling in love with this
[7:43]or what the challenges were and what you say to people
[7:45]who want to get into gardening now.
[7:47]I'd say the challenges were really learning how to plant,
[7:52]you know, how deep that I put a seed, that kind of thing.
[7:56]And I had two wonderful hands on mentors to teach me,
[8:01]Katherine Siobone, a very talented young landscape designer and gay
[8:06]priest who knows a lot about vegetables.
[8:09]I am particularly interested in vegetables.
[8:11]I love the fact that this post was in Connecticut
[8:15]and I wanted to somehow tie it in to colonial times
[8:19]and vegetables were important to me.
[8:20]18 months, I think was a fair amount.
[8:23]The idea was to design it planted over six months
[8:27]and then have 12 months full year to watch the first plant cycle.
[8:32]I'll say one thing that I look back on.
[8:36]I am still a New Yorker by life, that's where we live.
[8:40]And I don't imagine myself living there full time.
[8:45]My daughter on the other hand really loves it and possibly
[8:48]could live there full time.
[8:49]Anyway, I was very naive to think that I could have made
[8:53]that garden, which is 48 by 54 feet and, you know,
[8:57]to the extent that it was if I didn't live there full time.
[9:02]And during the pandemic, we escaped to that house
[9:08]and lived there, you know, isolated there.
[9:12]And that was, in its way, a phenomenal experience.
[9:18]It was really a saving grace for the garden.
[9:20]It made the program I think many times better.
[9:23]And not only did I, did it help me to plant and understand
[9:27]the garden, but it really helped me to understand nature.
[9:31]And I think one reason, one main reason people garden
[9:34]is to get in touch with nature.
[9:36]As Thoreau says, we are really made the same elements.
[9:40]And E.O. Wilson will talk about a concept he discovered in the 1980s
[9:46]that people not only need connection and relationships with people,
[9:51]but they need them with nature and ends.
[9:54]And I really do believe in that.
[9:56]And certainly, he had Michael Collins, quote, is,
[10:00]three in grossing ways a person can connect with the earth. So that was, you know, that was
[10:07]very helpful. But I have one big piece of advice out of all of this, which is to start small.
[10:14]I started bigger than I would have otherwise and it's not to trick me in the garden. So I could
[10:19]tackle it more easily. But I really mean it. Don't don't fight off more than you could
[10:25]choose because it's hard at first. It takes learning. It takes experimentation. And you don't
[10:29]want to have so much work to do that. It loses. It's fun. That's true. That's a good life advice
[10:34]on all friends. Did you know starting your garden that it was going to be a book? No,
[10:39]not initially, but soon, because then I did propose the idea to a wonderful publisher,
[10:45]Jonathan Burnham, who runs now Harper Books and I've done two other books for Harper.
[10:50]So I thought about it for that reason. And, you know, like the idea, which was great. So,
[10:57]you know, I got the contract and time, it was time really about the same time that you start
[11:04]planning. And that's what happened. Wow. Was it always going to be such a visual delight?
[11:09]When you had your proposal and everything, was it intended to be like the larger shape and
[11:14]with so many beautiful watercolors and photographs and all of that or were you ever thinking of
[11:19]it as a straight memoir about becoming a gardener? Very visual like nature. And the other,
[11:26]well, one of the other two books had a lot of, had that same sort of mix of text and photos.
[11:34]You know, gardens do need to be seen, I think, to be understood. So in that sense, I think there
[11:40]was always going to be visuals. It was fun because Jonathan and I and debating whether to do this
[11:47]decided we would go to bookstores. He lived downtown, downtown. And so he went down here. And I
[11:55]moved downtown. And I first went to this charming bookshop called Kitchen Arts and Letters on
[12:03]Lexington Avenue in the 90s. It's been there for, I don't know, 70 years or something. It feels like
[12:09]it hasn't changed. People there are very nice. And I picked up a book or Danish chef. And I was
[12:15]so shocked by the watercolors. And so I took that to Jonathan when we were at our first meeting
[12:21]about it. And he loved watercolors just as much as I did. The company that did them is called All
[12:28]the Way to Paris. That's run by two women. And it took a while. They were hard to track down.
[12:35]They were at the end of the time. But they were just hard to track down. And one of so glad I
[12:41]and loved the mix of the photos. And I should also add Bill Branowitz, who was introduced to me
[12:48]by Liz Sullivan and the editor at Harper, is I'm really talented to talk to her. I think he captures
[12:55]a light and amazing way. But he's also a super nice man. So after your deep dive into books about
[13:01]gardening, like what did you take away that those of us who have not read all those books
[13:06]haven't gotten. I would take away first that it was really fun to try something new.
[13:13]And learning something new really from scratch. I was excited. I realized I have since I've
[13:21]loved gardens. I've always gone to see gardens whenever we travel. And we did have a small garden
[13:27]somewhere else that I asked someone to help do because I didn't have a clue. But I actually
[13:35]found I need tidbits here and there more than I thought. But still, it was totally learning something
[13:40]new. And I think that's something I guess I'd like to impart, which is it doesn't have to be
[13:46]gardening. It could be anything. But the idea of learning something new. And the other is the fact
[13:55]being closer to nature does enhance your life. It enhances my life as I walked down the street
[14:03]because I suddenly become more of a servant. The writer couldn't help me live. It calls it
[14:08]having gardeners eyes. And I seek plans in ways I hadn't. I identify plans in ways I hadn't.
[14:15]And so it just enhances my everyday experience. And putting some seeds in the ground and watching them
[14:23]come up is really, really satisfying. So I have read, as you know, a lot about what the writers
[14:32]say about gardens. And I have realized it's really quite true. So can you back up and explain
[14:42]your love of books? And when it started, when you started writing your own books, how you
[14:48]get involved with the library, which I know we've both been involved in, the New York Public
[14:52]like how did this all happen? I suppose my love of books started when I was young. I thought of you
[14:58]and your story about Charlotte's web in your book. Because I had a similar story about the secret
[15:04]garden in my, I think he's a flashlight when I got into the covers some matter and why I was able
[15:09]to see it. I think it was daytime. But anyway, I love that book. And it was books really that
[15:15]introduced me to garden. Many people, by the way, who are gardeners have this gardening gene
[15:22]and particularly in England and often oddly enough, just a generation. So it might be a grandparent
[15:28]house garden. But we did not have gardens in our family. So for me, learning about gardens really
[15:34]came out of books and it came out of visiting gardens. And I'm just always admired writing and
[15:41]writers. And the other two books really what I did was assembled writers who were done a
[15:46]specific topic. So this is the first book I wrote myself. And I just so appreciate what writers do.
[15:54]I really admire it and it changes life. There's so much that can be sent through writers.
[16:01]My involvement in the library finally started because it was Tom Wolf and I'm a friend of his daughter
[16:07]sent me a letter to be on some committee at the library. And I didn't really read the letter. And I
[16:13]just sort of tossed it feeling it was just whatever, you know, another standard kind of fundraising
[16:19]letter and something like that. And they did follow up and ask me. And I think goodness, they
[16:24]followed up because, you know, really did change my life. And I started to be on that council. And then
[16:31]I don't know why, really, for whatever reasons was asked to join the board. So I did that. At that
[16:38]point, I was distinctly the youngest member of the board. And it was very exciting. And I did various
[16:45]things. And then, you know, again, it was a surprise when they asked me to chair the board. But that
[16:51]was the most rewarding work experience I've ever had. But how so felt like I was making a difference
[16:57]in various ways. I thought it was always wonderful when Paula Claire and I and
[17:02]Katherine Dunford since in others would go to a branch library, which it had a renovation
[17:07]and see it in action because sometimes you work in the abstract. And it was working with the people
[17:12]of all sorts. And I, you know, there was wide range. And I just enjoyed that so much. In fact,
[17:18]I really enjoyed writing this book. It was hard. And I realized I'm not a writer. I really
[17:26]don't want to be in the quiet of writing all the time. I don't plan on writing another book.
[17:33]I just feel like I meet people around more or doing something with people. And I just really
[17:39]enjoy working on a project with people. But for the same book. Interesting. You could do like a group.
[17:44]Could you have a co-writers that they can't really see? So aside from the solitude aspect,
[17:49]solitary aspect, although you were writing during COVID too, which I'm sure made it even more
[17:54]acute. What was going on? But did you feel rejuvenated? Or do you feel like you got meaning maybe
[18:00]wouldn't have paused to get out of the gardening experience by writing about it? So like being
[18:05]that extra layer of observation? Yeah. And I think a lot really comes from the research with
[18:11]the writers. And and there are so many quotes of the writers or advice that are woven throughout
[18:17]narrative that that enhanced line knowledge from that. And I think writing about it certainly
[18:24]helped me to understand. It certainly helped me to understand the meaning of a part.
[18:29]So yes, that's wonderful. Okay. So if you're not planning on writing another book,
[18:35]but you are planning on continuing to garden. It sounds in a smaller section. What else comes after
[18:42]this book? And is there anything on your wish list for why you wanted to write this book that
[18:47]you haven't done yet that is still on your list? It's a really interesting question. I'm one of
[18:52]those people who really has to work in some way. And I keep thinking that all these things that
[18:58]I've done are great, but then, you know, they finish. And then I have to start something new. And
[19:04]this time I really want to start something that will last for the long haul as I say it. And
[19:09]what has always interested me is farming. And what I am thinking of is it's rather ambitious,
[19:17]I suppose, but trying to find land and create farms, which are farm actually in line line by
[19:25]refugees. So it could be a lot, you know, there are a lot of different groups where it could be
[19:29]farm. And they would be paid. And, you know, part is to whatever would be going for them. And
[19:35]whatever the excess would be either sold or given to food banks or whatever. But that is my interest.
[19:43]And I'm right now, you know, finally really feeling I have a good amount of time to really
[19:51]devote to it. I have a couple of wonderful friends who are willing to help me. And Cheryl Ephron,
[19:57]being one, Tim Allen.
[20:00]being another and so you know it's it's again something that I'll be working
[20:05]with people and how rewarding that is. Wow that's wonderful amazing. Do you have any
[20:10]advice for aspiring authors? Simply try you know it's what other people say put
[20:16]put something on paper at one point the other two it said to me just write one
[20:21]chapter about write one section so I did I wrote it on roses and I really thought
[20:27]pretty careful and stuck it tucked it away and for whatever reasons let's say
[20:33]seven eight months later we were talking about it and she said something I said all right I'll
[20:38]show it to you and she loved it basically in the book as I wrote it and so you never do know
[20:47]you're writing I would wager anyone's writing it's better than you think you know and there's
[20:52]ton of editing that goes into this I ended in this book again and again and again and again
[20:59]and when I was doing the book on city squares I was working with a writer who would send me draft
[21:06]number 18 just kept going and I understand that so it doesn't really matter what you put down at
[21:15]first it's been I love the advice of the editing well Katie thank you thank you for coming on
[21:21]thank you for talking about your beautiful book it is like such a perfect read your beautiful
[21:26]writer but it's also a great gift for anybody who loves to garden and really really beautiful
[21:32]I mean I know I keep saying beautiful but that's what I think about it it's absolutely gorgeous
[21:36]so thank you thank you all right bye take care thanks for listening to this episode of
[21:44]moms don't have time to read books don't forget to follow me on instagram at zibi Owens and at
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[21:54]up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom every other week thanks so much to
[21:59]Steve and Ryan fact texture sound for the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions
[22:04]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music