Rebecca Soffer, THE MODERN LOSS HANDBOOK: An Interactive Guide to Moving Through Grief and Building Your Resilience

[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now.

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[1:13]Rebecca Sofer is the author of the modern loss handbook, an interactive guide to moving through grief and building your resilience.

[1:20]She was also on this podcast for her first book, Modern Loss, Candid Conversations About Grief.

[1:27]She's the co-founder of Modern Loss, a global movement offering creative, meaningful, and practical content and community, addressing the long arc of grief.

[1:36]She writes regularly across media, including The New York Times, Glamour, NBC, and CNN.

[1:41]Rebecca is a Columbia University graduate school of journalism alumna, and a Peabody award-winning former producer for the Colbert Report.

[1:48]Rebecca and her husband in sense split their time between New York City and the Berkshires.

[1:52]Rebecca was nice enough to publish several of my articles on modernloss.com, so if you go to modernloss.com and just type in Zibi, and you can read some of my essays,

[2:02]and also you should check out the amazing content there, which is really, really helpful for anyone who's going through loss or knows someone going through loss.

[2:08]Welcome, Rebecca. Thank you so much for coming back on mom's time to read books.

[2:13]Vivi, I so don't have time for anything, and yet I have time for this podcast, because it's such an incredible delight to be back with you.

[2:21]And I just love being able to stare at your face on Zoom for a couple of minutes. It's like making me feel better today.

[2:28]I feel the same way listeners not to leave you out, but we were just like, oh my gosh, like, then, then, then, then as fast as we can for a few minutes.

[2:35]We've known each other now a couple of years and, you know, have a lot. We can relate to some about each other. So anyway, there was a lot of venting, a lot of venting, but one of the things we were starting to talk about, and I was like, let's save this for the podcast,

[2:49]relates a lot to modernloss and the modernloss handbook and everything that Rebecca does and stands for and everything, which is helping people through hard times, particularly grief.

[3:00]And, you know, with her trademark sense of humor and relatability and everything, and one of your tips is going micro. So talk about that is just like one of the many resources in this book that can help people.

[3:13]Yeah. I mean, going micro, I feel like to some people, it feels so obvious. It's like, oh, are you overwhelmed, go micro, but to many of us.

[3:21]And I include myself in that when I find myself feeling very overwhelmed in parentheses, read the last three years and counting, oh, the last 40 something years and counting, you know, and I feel like I'm trying to figure out like, oh my god, like, wait, what is like, in 17 months, like there's this thing and like, what is that going to look like and how am I going to do that, or like in five years, what's my five year plan?

[3:51]And I realized that I'm like snowballing what I self diagnosed on Instagram because it's like highly sensitive refuge.

[4:00]And I'm like, I need a highly sensitive refuge. And then I realized I'm a highly sensitive person for better or for worse, that just is what it is.

[4:08]And I just I take on the emotion, I take on the emotions of the world. And so whenever I'm feeling completely overwhelmed, it's like, if I ever got a tattoo, I think it would just say,

[4:20]go micro or like GM because that is what saves me. And that is my, you know, we talk about in pop culture and like, or in just casual conversation, I like mindfulness and like self care.

[4:33]That's my mindfulness. It's anchoring me in the moment very suddenly it's saying, go micro get through the next hour. Don't worry about 17 months from now.

[4:45]Don't worry about how you're going to pay the thing or like get your kid through the thing, or like manage the thing.

[4:52]Just get through to a clock today. How are you going to do that? Because you can't get through the thing until you get through to a clock if to a clock feels too far away because it's 8 a.m. OK, get through 8 o 5 a.m. And this might sound very silly to some people, some people who have a handle on things all the time.

[5:10]Good for you. I'm not one of those people and I get a handle on my shit by going micro when I really need to. And it saves me time and time and time again in times of grief, in times of overwhelm, just in times of stress. You know, it's a really helpful tool that I have my toolbox.

[5:31]I feel like my version of that is like just keep your head down. Right. When I look up and I see like all the things and I guess that's sort of like what you're saying. Like there's too much. There's too many inputs. There's too much on the horizon.

[5:45]I have to focus on what I'm doing right now, right here. And it's translated even into my parenting when my kids are like, well, you know, do we think we'll be survivors of the school and go all 13 years? And I'm like, I have no idea. I don't even know if you're going to go to that school next year. And they're like, what?

[5:59]And I'm like, I'm just kidding. But like, who knows? Actually, I'm not just kidding. I literally don't know what my life is going to look like next year. I don't know where I'm going to live. I don't know what I don't know anything. And I would say that the one thing that the pandemic has done for me, which is a positive, by the way, I'd give anything to not be living in a pandemic with the rest of the world. But, you know, in, in addition to like reconnecting me with people who I love and who I've just made a point to reconnect with all over the world.

[6:28]Because like life is short, it's really proven to me that it's like, you know, it's okay. Like if you make the change and it's not the right change, you make the change back or you make another change. And I used to be somebody who was like, Oh my God, I literally can't make a decision because this decision is going to have to stick. I'm going to have to live with all the consequences. And like, yeah, you, you still will, you know, and especially in some major ways. But like, if it's like, you know, I'm going to move or we'll try a new school.

[6:55]Okay. If it doesn't work, like I think we've been proven that nothing is permanent. There's no like forever home anymore. There's no permanence of anything. We can change and we can adapt to that change.

[7:09]Totally. I know. I feel like if I could do anything, my older kids are now 15. If I could just like go back and reclaim some of the energy I spent worrying about like kindergarten admissions for them.

[7:20]I know at the time that was all I was thinking about and doing, but it's like, they've all changed schools like not to say, now I feel like I'm coming down negatively. I love the school. They were, they're all that. But it's just like you don't know what is going to happen with the world or with your kids or with your career or with anything. Literally no clue.

[7:38]Like I mean, I spent so much, I gave myself so much Ajada over like, oh, where should my older? What, what with kindergarten blah blah blah. Oh my God. So much time thinking about it. By the way, I went to like literally like just kindergarten down the street in the main line outside Philly because that's where you went. But in Manhattan, it's a different monster at different ball game.

[8:00]Well, the joke was on me because my son who was six at the time got to spend six months at that kindergarten and then COVID hit.

[8:08]And he was in Zoom's call on his computer for three months. So it's just like, yeah, you got to cut yourself a break all around and also just try not to eat your heart out over every little decision. You know, I have realized that it's just not worth it.

[8:24]You're absolutely right. You got to save that energy for the really, really, really tough stuff. Yeah. And there's plenty of that.

[8:31]I feel like though the tough stuff is much easier for me. Like, I feel like the bigger decisions in life for the bigger things. I don't know if you feel the same way.

[8:39]No, I'm terrible at big decisions.

[8:42]No, no, no, no, then you and I should definitely live together really good at like delegating. And I mean, I'm a former daily TV producer. So like, I'm really good at like getting her done.

[8:54]Okay. How do we get this project done? How do we do this? But it's if it's like, what are the big questions and what are the answers? Like that's what I'm like.

[9:02]I get wrapped up in the paradox of choice when there are multiple choices. I get, you know, totally freaked out. And that's what I'm saying. Like I'm starting to realize that it's like sometimes you just got to make a decision.

[9:15]And if it doesn't go well, then you maybe make a different decision if you can. And that's just I was all you can do.

[9:22]Literally in the car with Kyle dropping off the kids. And this week, of course, I've put myself in an almost impossible situation with three different camps that like basically at the same time.

[9:32]And I spent like half the car. I'd be like, but wait, maybe we should drop this kid off first. But wait, what if we dropped this kid off first, but that counselor's not there. But wait, but maybe we should do this. But then the third kid's going to be like, like, it's so stupid.

[9:45]Anyway, this is totally off topic of your book. I am so sorry. And here you are. This like amazing entrepreneur

[9:50]and done so much awesome stuff. Tell everybody about modern loss. You might not know about it.

[9:54]How you've created this whole thing. Your backstory, the you've been on this for

[10:00]Your first book, Modern Loss and Conversations.

[10:03]What was the funniest subtitle?

[10:04]Conversations about Google.

[10:05]It was a candid conversation about Greek beginner's welcome.

[10:08]Yes, that was perfect.

[10:10]And now why you've added this new book,

[10:13]which is so helpful and amazing.

[10:15]And just the best resource and resource in general

[10:20]for mental health.

[10:22]I was poured over every word when I first got it.

[10:25]I was like, stop the press.

[10:26]I am sitting down here and finishing this whole thing.

[10:28]I have to tell you, I got that email from you

[10:30]after I sent you the book when I didn't

[10:32]even realize you were getting advanced copies

[10:34]that were finished copies.

[10:36]And I sent one to you and I was super nervous

[10:39]because while I was writing it, honestly,

[10:42]like I didn't give a shit, like while I was writing it

[10:44]because I really was writing it

[10:46]in the darkest, darkest depth of COVID.

[10:48]It was the winter of 2020, 2021.

[10:51]There was a lot going on in this country

[10:53]if you can remember pretty stressful times.

[10:55]I felt particularly isolated.

[10:57]I had suddenly found myself living in the Berkshires

[11:01]where I get stuck at like 11 a.m.

[11:03]in the winter for six months.

[11:05]We had a lot of nuclear family COVID.

[11:08]It was a really scary hard time.

[11:10]And my modern-lost community like the needs had ballooned.

[11:13]And so just to answer your question,

[11:15]the reason I wrote this book,

[11:17]which is the modern-lost handbook

[11:19]and interactive guide to moving through grief

[11:21]and building your resilience is because when COVID hit,

[11:26]we have readers all over the world,

[11:27]but we are known for doing live storytelling.

[11:30]Like I try and do as many in real-life connection points

[11:32]as possible, just being one person.

[11:34]It's not like super possible.

[11:36]But you know, I've done storytelling events all over.

[11:38]And I try and speak all over.

[11:40]But now all of a sudden, everybody was virtual

[11:43]and everybody was losing access

[11:45]to their coping mechanisms that they developed in loss.

[11:47]Like they could no longer go to the Bodega

[11:49]to see the friendly dude, you know,

[11:51]who sold them the Almond milk.

[11:53]They could no longer go to the gym

[11:55]to do the spinning class.

[11:56]They could no longer go to a brunch on Saturday

[11:58]that monthly brunch with friends,

[12:00]which sometimes they hung their sanity on,

[12:02]knowing that that was in the calendar.

[12:04]They couldn't go to therapy easily.

[12:05]They couldn't go to rights and rituals of, you know,

[12:08]like happy rights and rituals,

[12:10]sad rights and rituals.

[12:12]We couldn't even hug each other without being terrified.

[12:14]I mean, we lost the sense of that beautiful thing

[12:18]called touch, which is so healing.

[12:20]And so like everybody was reeling.

[12:22]And I was also reeling.

[12:24]And so I just felt so overwhelmed

[12:26]talk about going micro by the needs of the community

[12:29]and being only one person that I was like,

[12:31]this is the time to write this book,

[12:33]which I had wanted to write the year prior.

[12:37]But as, you know, an entrepreneur, I'm sure you know,

[12:40]you have all these golden tickets on your wall

[12:42]of all the things you wanna do.

[12:43]And there's only so much you can do qualitatively.

[12:45]And this was a book I really wanted to do,

[12:47]but all of a sudden it became obvious

[12:49]that this was the time that it had to be done.

[12:51]And so this was my opportunity to share everything

[12:55]that I had learned from my own personal experience

[12:58]with grief and from all the amazing experts

[13:01]that I work with, like across the spectrum of wellness

[13:04]and therapy, mental health grief,

[13:07]the extended arc of loss,

[13:08]and also just the incredible community members

[13:12]from modern loss that have taught me so much more

[13:15]than I would have ever learned on my own

[13:16]about different points of view,

[13:18]different ways of coping, different creative rituals,

[13:21]different, you know, cultural moorays

[13:23]that they were familiar with that I wasn't.

[13:26]And so I realized this was the opportunity to give

[13:29]of myself and of everybody else between two covers

[13:32]when I could only be so many places at one time.

[13:35]And so this book really is meant to help you stay connected

[13:39]to your person, stay connected to yourself,

[13:42]and stay connected to the world around you.

[13:44]And it's literally the thing that I wish

[13:46]that somebody would have handed to me after my mom died,

[13:50]after my dad died, years after my mom died,

[13:53]I was my own guinea pig.

[13:54]I kind of went through the book after I wrote it.

[13:57]And I was like, oh, it's still germane, 15 years later,

[14:00]but I'm viewing it in a different way.

[14:02]And so I kind of proved my own hypothesis,

[14:05]which was that the arc of loss really is long

[14:08]and grief may turn into loss across the long arc,

[14:12]but it's still very much a living thing.

[14:14]It's not going to go away.

[14:16]And you're gonna interact with it in different ways

[14:19]because loss is a living thing and you're a living thing.

[14:21]And you're gonna perceive your people differently

[14:24]as you move through life,

[14:25]as you take on different roles,

[14:27]as you lose different roles,

[14:28]as you empathize with them in different ways,

[14:31]as you wish that you could have talked to them

[14:34]about certain things.

[14:35]And so this book really does give you the chance

[14:38]to care for yourself and stay connected with that person.

[14:41]And also just like figure out how to like draw your own

[14:44]boundaries with friends, draw your boundaries with work.

[14:47]Stand up for yourself

[14:48]and ask for what you need,

[14:49]because we do a really shitty job in this country

[14:54]and in Western culture in general

[14:56]at helping people to talk through this stuff

[14:58]and support each other.

[15:00]Is that all?

[15:01]Is that all you're trying to tackle?

[15:02]That thing.

[15:02]It's just that one thing.

[15:03]And I do have to say that like while I was writing it,

[15:07]I just didn't care because I just felt like I was so fortunate

[15:11]to be given a mandate of a deadline of a publishing contract

[15:14]to have sold a book during like this shit show

[15:17]that was going on.

[15:18]I felt so grateful talking about going micro.

[15:21]I was like, I get to go micro with this book

[15:23]and it wasn't that easy

[15:25]because I didn't have child care and school was crazy.

[15:27]And like people were sick and my kids were vaccinated

[15:31]and I wasn't vaccinated.

[15:32]So there was a lot going on.

[15:33]But I was like, I feel so lucky to have this chance

[15:36]to write this thing and I value it so much.

[15:39]I take it so seriously and I'm really gonna say

[15:42]just what I have to say.

[15:44]I'm not gonna enable gays.

[15:45]I'm not gonna wonder if it sounds like

[15:47]smart enough or pithy enough or funny enough.

[15:50]I'm just gonna say what I have to say

[15:52]because I don't know.

[15:54]Like maybe this will be the last thing that I ever write.

[15:56]Not to sound dramatic, but it was a really dark winter.

[16:00]Remember, I mean, you don't cause our neurons are fried

[16:02]but that first COVID winter, 2020, 2021, like in the election

[16:08]January.

[16:09]I mean, there's like a lot going on.

[16:11]And so I was just like, I'm gonna say what I have to say.

[16:13]And I think that the result for me is something

[16:16]that I'm so proud of for me,

[16:18]which is I stayed true to my voice.

[16:21]I really feel comfortable saying that.

[16:24]And when you wrote to me, like you said,

[16:27]you were like, you came back from vacation.

[16:30]And I'm sure it was like just one of another,

[16:32]like thousands of books that you were sent.

[16:34]And you said you literally read through the entire thing

[16:36]sitting on your floor in one day.

[16:39]And I mean, I started crying cause I was like,

[16:42]it was like the first time that anybody

[16:44]besides my editor or people who had to say

[16:48]that they liked it, that something positive

[16:51]and how much it resonated.

[16:52]And I was like, okay, I think that I've said what I'd say here.

[16:55]And meant a lot.

[16:56]I completely meant it.

[16:58]I loved it.

[16:59]I got so much out of it.

[17:02]I related to it.

[17:04]It was helpful.

[17:04]It was funny.

[17:06]It was just every, it was so great.

[17:08]I think handbook sells it short almost,

[17:11]even though it is like a handbook workbook

[17:13]and that you can use it.

[17:14]But I don't know, handbook sometimes get a bad rap.

[17:17]And this is like, it's Emma's like,

[17:19]well, manual's another bet.

[17:20]No, nothing you chose the wrong way, but just,

[17:22]I didn't even use the running press shows that they were

[17:25]like, how about the modern last handbook?

[17:27]And I was like, fine, that's fine, whatever.

[17:29]Just let me write it.

[17:30]You know, they didn't want to call it a journal

[17:32]or a workbook because yeah, it's like you said,

[17:34]it's not.

[17:35]It's a fully written, it's 250 pages long.

[17:37]I would say that 90% of it is is is pros.

[17:41]It's written word.

[17:42]But the reason they wanted to call it a handbook

[17:45]is because they didn't want it to be relegated

[17:47]to the journal section at the back of the bookstore

[17:49]or the library.

[17:50]They wanted it to be in the book section,

[17:52]but a handbook more like because it is really a guide.

[17:56]But it's a choose your own adventure guide, right?

[17:59]Like I give you a lot of stuff that I think can help.

[18:03]But I also say, you know what,

[18:05]not all of these things may work for you

[18:08]in this moment in time.

[18:10]That doesn't mean they're not gonna work for you down the line.

[18:12]So like, don't throw the book away yet, okay?

[18:14]You're like, don't get the page out yet.

[18:16]Like just trust me, you know,

[18:17]because loss is dynamic.

[18:19]Grief is dynamic, it may work for you later.

[18:22]But also like not every single thing may work

[18:24]for you period.

[18:25]And so pick and choose, try it, see trial and error.

[18:30]And like here's your toolbox,

[18:31]just whatever works, throw it in the toolbox

[18:34]because there is literally no one vaccine

[18:38]for the grief experience, for the loss experience.

[18:41]There's no yoga class that's gonna make it all better.

[18:44]There's no therapy session that's gonna make it all better.

[18:46]There's no one best friend, like Pithi best friend,

[18:49]who is the perfect thing to say,

[18:51]who's gonna make it all better?

[18:52]Because that's literally not possible.

[18:54]The only way to move through this is like I said,

[18:58]is to figure out how to do three things,

[19:01]figure out how to stay connected with your person,

[19:03]not just in the good ways,

[19:05]through memory and ritual and reframing anniversaries

[19:08]and all that, but also like looking at the tough things.

[19:11]Relationships are very fallible.

[19:13]Nobody ends a relationship that when one person dies

[19:17]saying, well, that was just perfect.

[19:20]Like it's just not the way loss works.

[19:21]And so I challenge you through different prompts

[19:24]and that's where like the interactive session comes in

[19:27]to think through like are there ways

[19:28]in which this person hurt you?

[19:30]And they never apologized or vice versa.

[19:32]Are they things you would have done differently?

[19:34]Like I literally challenge you to think through hard things

[19:37]because I say that I think that that's more important

[19:40]than just remembering that they made like a killer,

[19:43]you know, hurricane, you know, like you're left to deal

[19:47]with the stuff that they left behind.

[19:50]They don't care anymore.

[19:52]It's up to you to figure out how you deal with all this stuff

[19:55]so that you can live a life that's really rich

[19:59]and really meaningful.

[20:00]all and create meaning in the wake of the shit storm, because you deserve to at any age.

[20:07]And so when you figure out how to stay connected with that person and then stay connected

[20:11]with yourself, like how to deal with your anxiety and your sleep and the fact that grief

[20:16]shakes your body down physically, you know, we don't talk about that enough.

[20:20]Like how do you deal with that?

[20:21]How do you look at different therapies or try different art therapies, different modalities?

[20:26]How do you do all that?

[20:28]And then also how do you like navigate and negotiate and stand up for your social dynamics?

[20:33]How do you feel comfortable talking to friends who are like being really lame or weird

[20:38]around you?

[20:39]How do you encourage them to be less lame or weird around you?

[20:42]How do you build a support team?

[20:44]How do you, you know, pull the people who are coming out of the woodwork for you?

[20:47]How do you draw boundaries?

[20:49]How do you date and navigate your intimate relationships and stand up for yourself to

[20:53]your manager?

[20:54]That's why I say like there's no one vaccine.

[20:57]But like all of these things together, when you can feel a little bit more comfortable

[21:02]managing all of them or at least you've tried to, that's when you can get to a place where

[21:08]you at least feel like you're asking for acknowledgement and something that's really hard.

[21:14]And if you don't have a feeling of acknowledgement and something that's really hard, be

[21:18]it a divorce or a work project that you just worked your butt off on and like no one at work

[21:24]was like, oh my god, you must have worked so hard on this.

[21:26]Like imagine how crappy that feels.

[21:29]Well, what about when you're going through an enormous loss and everyone just pretends

[21:32]like it hasn't happened or you should be over it or like it's not so bad or at least

[21:38]they, you know, at least you can have another kid, you know, like that's bullshit.

[21:44]You deserve to feel acknowledged and something.

[21:46]It's free to acknowledge somebody.

[21:48]And without acknowledgement, I think it's just really hard to feel like you're healing.

[21:53]But I challenge you in the book to figure out how to get the acknowledgement.

[21:57]I give you a little bit of tough love because I think we both know you've had a lot of

[22:02]losses, Libby.

[22:03]You know that like the world isn't going to come to you and like cradle you and say like

[22:08]how can we make it all better.

[22:10]You know that a lot of the times you've had so much loss, personal loss in the last few

[22:15]years.

[22:17]You know that it's up to you to like figure out what you need, what the people who are

[22:21]are hurting around you, like what do we need to feel nourished and seen and supported

[22:26]and kind of try and ask for it and find it because if not very few people can into it,

[22:33]what it is you needed any given moment, especially when you're going through really hard

[22:37]times.

[22:39]And on top of that, we're all dealing with our own messes.

[22:43]We are.

[22:44]It's a really hard time right now and everybody is not okay.

[22:49]That's another way of saying that nobody is really okay.

[22:52]I love that and I love everything you have to say.

[22:56]You are such a good speaker.

[22:58]I see why you know speak everywhere and you know I've watched your JCC shows and you know

[23:03]the way you combine people's voices and all of that as well.

[23:07]But I just you're just so impressive.

[23:09]So thank you.

[23:10]Thanks for having me.

[23:11]Oh my gosh.

[23:12]Thanks for coming on.

[23:13]Thanks for our pre chat.

[23:14]Anytime we should do this again, pretend we have a meeting and just like you know go to

[23:18]to town.

[23:19]Let's do that.

[23:20]And you know, I just want to say that we just still have so much free content online

[23:24]for anyone who needs it, modernloss.com and all the platforms like come to us, engage

[23:30]in the conversation, feel seen, feel acknowledged.

[23:34]That's what you need.

[23:35]Amazing.

[23:36]I wish I had your book a long time ago.

[23:38]Me too.

[23:39]Me too.

[23:40]That's why I wrote it.

[23:43]I hope I sent you book ends by the way.

[23:44]Now that this is over, did you get a copy?

[23:46]Okay, good.

[23:47]All right.

[23:48]It's like my own manual of loss.

[23:50]Anyway, Rebecca, thank you so much.

[23:53]Thanks for having me.

[23:54]Thanks for having me.

[23:55]Let's talk soon.

[23:56]Bye.

[23:57]Bye.

[23:58]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[24:02]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibbowens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read

[24:06]Books.

[24:07]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and

[24:12]meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.

[24:14]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan Beck, Textures Sound for the Sound Editing, and thank

[24:18]you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.