Elaine Castillo, HOW TO READ NOW: Essays
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[1:13]Elaine Costello is the author of how to read now essays
[1:17]Elaine was named 30 of the planets most exciting young people by the financial times
[1:21]She was born and raised in the Bay Area her debut novel America is not the heart was a finalist for numerous prizes
[1:27]Including the Elbig book award the Center for Fiction Prize and the Aspen words literary prize and was named a best book of
[1:35]2018 by NPR real simple lit-up the Boston Globe San Francisco Chronicle of the New York Post
[1:40]Crocus Reviews and the New York Public Library
[1:43]Welcome, Elaine. Thank you so much for coming on mom. Don't have time to read books to discuss how to read now essays
[1:49]Thank you so much for having me. It's a real joy to be here. Oh, it's so fun
[1:52]This is so interesting
[1:53]There's so much here that I responded to you. I have like a million dog-eared pages
[1:57]Oh, why don't you tell listeners a little about what this essay collection is about? Sure. I mean, I think
[2:03]It's at some point. I was joking to someone. They were like well, what was why did you write this book?
[2:08]And I said I think I said something along the lines of well, it was either write this book or just leave literature entirely
[2:16]It was just starting to and I talk about it a little bit
[2:19]Especially in the in the authors note in the intro about the kind of events that led up to it
[2:23]Really came out of I mean, I wrote this mainly on book tour on my when I was on book tour for my first
[2:29]Novel, which was it came out in 2018 and I started writing this I was at the
[2:34]It was like a period of time where I was at a Sydney writers festival and then the Auckland writers festival in like May
[2:40]Spring 2019 and by that point I was already a year into tour and I had sort of you know
[2:45]Run you know you run the gauntlet you've of all of the kind of tour experiences and it just started
[2:50]You know the things that I was just
[2:52]Seeing the ways that
[2:54]Writers of color were being framed in the kind of contemporary literary discourse
[2:58]It just increasingly just started to seem
[3:01]Impossible to ignore impossible to just absorb
[3:04]So then I was in New Zealand and I mean, I talk about it a lot in the book because New Zealand or out there
[3:10]You know has such a
[3:12]Takes it takes up a lot of space in the book because I had a really a kind of altering or sort of transformative experience there in a way
[3:18]That I don't think I've really had before and so it's that kind of somewhat
[3:22]Epiphanic experience of being in a in a new place and just started writing in a few state there and
[3:29]Yeah
[3:32]So what about that experience made you want to like take pen to paper
[3:37]I mean, I think I think it's probably a combination of you're so far from home. You're already losing it
[3:44]I mean the writer's festival circuit is such a it's such a wild thing anyway because it
[3:49]Takes people who are very used to just being alone writing in rooms and then suddenly is like here half sociality
[3:56]That's going to go well
[3:58]So I
[3:59]But actually it did really go well. I met some of my I mean
[4:02]The writers and the friends now that I met there
[4:05]We still are all in touch. We kind of jokingly call it like the
[4:09]Class of spring 2019 because that experience. I think was special for all of us. I think for me reason
[4:15]I've been thinking a little bit about
[4:17]Travel writing. I don't know. I think
[4:19]Travel writing is such a fraught genre
[4:21]Nowadays, I was telling I think I was saying this in another interview where we were talking I was talking about travel writing
[4:27]I mean obviously, you know, there there is a
[4:30]like the grand
[4:32]Majority of travel writing in a history of travel writing is ultimately one that's told by a white perspective about sort of the exotic
[4:38]Land that now I'm writing back to my colleagues about you know the R-Man in Havana or
[4:43]wherever or you know kind of fetishistic descriptions of like the Philippines and all the man goes and all the people are so lovely
[4:48]you know that kind of
[4:50]Writing so you know, I think I think like anyone I have a kind of a trepidation around travel writing
[4:56]And I was aware myself that the experiences that I was having. I was like oh god
[5:00]Is this gonna be just like you pray love buys what am I
[5:03]questioning myself
[5:05]But you know, I also you know, there's there's there's also the subset of travel writing like James Baldwin writing about
[5:12]Paris or writing about France or writing about Switzerland in ways that
[5:15]both
[5:16]Right about the actual place illuminate the place and maybe ways that I haven't
[5:22]Had read before but also illuminate his own relationship to home
[5:26]so I think that's really what
[5:28]Captured me is that in a way the space
[5:32]you know, I was
[5:34]taken with a specificity of
[5:36]Out there all with its materiality with learning about its colonial history and withdrawing the connections between
[5:41]the res or seeing resonances between its history and the you know history of the Philippines the colonial history of the
[5:47]Philippines or the colonial history of the West especially because
[5:49]No, like in New Zealand. I was hiking. I don't hike
[5:52]I'm not a hiker
[5:54]But then of course starting to do that doing something that you would never do at home
[5:58]It's started getting me thinking about things like climate justice and nature and and of course who you know the
[6:05]Not just history, but the present of wildfires in in California and how all of those so you start to make kind of unexpected
[6:11]Connections when you're taking out of your comfort zone. Ultimately. Wow. Yeah, one thing you did a lot in the book is talk about the zodiac signs and
[6:23]Don't spit your coffee at
[6:26]Was a near miss the computer was getting
[6:32]Telling about that. I loved that. I okay
[6:35]Okay, I I only very recently got into zodiac signs a friend of mine
[6:40]I'll meet a download a astrology app and prior to that. I just I was I was a skeptical person
[6:45]Oh, they are not trying to analyze your entire life through this framework
[6:48]And I don't know I must have downloaded at the perfect time in my life because
[6:52]I've only been into it for the last two years, but now I realize very typical Virgo
[6:56]I've done now enough research that I could probably do a PhD
[7:01]And I think I mean genuinely well one thing I was joking to a friend of mine a fellow queer friend of mine
[7:07]I was like there's a lot of zodiac signs in here because it's really just important for us to represent queer culture
[7:12]And he was laughing about that
[7:14]I mean, it's also true, but I think I think well for one thing
[7:18]It's just it's it's fun to me. It's delightful to me, but I think I also have recently realized
[7:24]Especially as someone who can be I mean my love language as this book. I'm sure will indicate is like non-stop criticism
[7:33]That's how I tell you that I love you. So I think it
[7:37]Zodiac stuff or astrology really offers you a really useful language because instead of just being like you're wrong about everything
[7:43]You can just it's softens the blow to be like you're such an earth sign
[7:47]And you know that so gave me this dialect to be able to critique my friends or you know the people in my life without being like
[7:55]Oh, you're doing everything wrong. They're like, yeah, we've heard that before
[7:59]Wow wait. Sorry. What's on are you?
[8:02]Why don't you try to guess do you have any?
[8:05]I've known you for three minutes. So you know three minutes. I mean, oh, I'm really I'm bad at by far
[8:13]Earth side. I'm gonna go with earth
[8:15]How do I know if it's an earth sign? I know what it is earth sign is a
[8:19]Burgo tourists are Capricorn. Oh, okay. Well, now I was I mean that now. I think I'm shooting
[8:24]I think I should only get one. Yes. I'm a Leo. Oh
[8:27]It's me. Oh season congratulations on Leo season. Thank you. So what does that mean? Should I be leaping around in excitement?
[8:34]I think it either genuinely I think isn't it a thing that almost all like
[8:38]Hollywood stars or Leo's like it's a very gregarious
[8:42]acting. I mean this book is a Leo because it came out yesterday
[8:46]I was just telling someone I was like this book is a Leo
[8:50]That's so funny. I mean, yeah, that's really funny to give every book a
[8:55]Every book its own zodiac sign and all that my kid my kids and I are kind of like obsessed with this right now
[9:01]I think that's why I was drawn to this element this small element of the whole bigger picture story
[9:05]But they're literally on the way to camp this morning. You can go on to some zodiac app
[9:10]And it can tell you based on your sign and like maybe one other thing how old you'll be when you meet your soulmate
[9:18]No, yeah, wait. I want to do like one of my kids is gonna meet that my one of my younger kids
[9:23]They said 15 and another kid. They said 28 and I'm like all right. Okay. Good. This
[9:29]Oh
[9:33]Oh, I love that. Yeah. We someone should do a listicle of books by their zodiac signs
[9:40]That would be funny to be like this way and then you would be like because I freaking him
[9:43]I found out recently that won't car wide the Hong Kong director that I talked about in the book
[9:47]He's in cancer. I was like all of his movies are cancer movies
[9:52]Wow, so now it's like my my grand operating my what is a grand unified theory
[9:56]Oh my gosh. I love that. Well, if
[10:00]you post about it and I'll like share the real and be like,
[10:04]you can do all the research and I'll benefit you because you have so
[10:08]much time too. You know, so there was also I know we're joking
[10:11]around a lot, but there was a very, you know, there was a sad
[10:14]element with your dad and his health and his passing away and how
[10:17]that factored into reading and how reading got you through that and
[10:21]how reading, you know, I completely relate to how reading can
[10:24]get us through different situations. Tell me a little more about
[10:27]that time of your life and, you know, even the
[10:31]ectopic pregnancy or something. So I'm so sorry, that happened,
[10:35]how a book sort of been the through line for you. Yeah, you know,
[10:39]I mean, I think it would have been impossible for me to write
[10:42]about reading or my reading life without talking about the
[10:45]person who introduced me to books and that was my my father and
[10:48]he was the person who, I mean, he was such a huge reader
[10:51]himself, even though in his life, he didn't do anything that was
[10:55]related to, you know, reading or literature or even the
[10:58]humanities really, I mean, humanities in terms of arts, you
[11:01]know, he, I mean, by the time that I knew by the time he was born
[11:04]in his California life, he was a security guard in his life in
[11:07]the Philippines long before I was born because he was
[11:09]book 54 when I was born. He was an orthopedic surgeon. So
[11:13]there was no, you know, his love of books was this totally
[11:15]personal idiosyncratic, not at all like academic
[11:20]relationship to it. And that because of that, he passed that
[11:22]down to me. So we were like reading across genres. He was
[11:25]never like, oh, you should read this because it's 18th century
[11:29]literature. It was like, well, you should read this because it's
[11:31]you know, Thomas Mann or what, he's not 18th century, but
[11:34]you know, Thomas Mann or you should read James Joyce, you
[11:37]should read Virginia Woolf, or you should read. And, and because
[11:40]of that, you know, I don't, it didn't come with a kind of
[11:43]normal preconceptions that I think will come with if you
[11:47]if you read all of those books in an English class and someone's
[11:49]telling you this is great literature. And this is part of
[11:52]what's known as the canon. I think with us because everything
[11:54]was so mixed, it really was a kind of reading where we
[11:58]created our own canon. And obviously, you know, English was
[12:01]not his first language English, frankly, his third language.
[12:04]So there was that also that we, you know, were able to come to it
[12:08]in these really kind of diffuse sort of, yeah, freewheeling
[12:13]ways. But then I think I also was always aware, because of my
[12:16]dad's class background, because, you know, his literacy was also
[12:19]really tied to his class background, because he came from,
[12:21]I mean, obviously, by the time my parents were married, it
[12:24]was, we grew up in a working class family, but his, how he grew
[12:27]up was as an upper middle class kid in the Philippines, which is
[12:30]such a contrast to my mom who grew up very much, not that
[12:33]very much rural poor. And so her relationship to literacy, her
[12:36]relationship to books is a lot more like she wouldn't read
[12:39]books for image. She has a much more kind of contentious or
[12:43]intimidated relationship with books and reading. I mean, not just
[12:46]in English, which is also her third, I mean, I would say
[12:49]fourth language, but, you know, even in Tagalog, which is sort
[12:53]of considered to be the lingo Frank of the Philippines, but it's not
[12:55]her first language. So I think that also complicates or
[13:00]inflected my relationship to books. I don't know.
[13:04]That's my dog coming up. You know, I was, I was aware that it was
[13:07]also as much as it was a joy, not just a joy, but I mean, the
[13:11]thing that very literally saved me. I mean, countless
[13:15]moments in my life, you know, I was also something that was a
[13:18]that was political also that was that was not divorced from
[13:22]questions of class or privilege or, you know, because what would I
[13:25]have become that kind of reader if my father hadn't
[13:28]been hadn't grown up the way he'd grown up, hadn't had the kind of
[13:31]facility with, you know, reading Plato or reading, you know, all of
[13:34]those things. So for sure. Yeah. I mean, I think the because the
[13:38]book so much of the book is really about understanding how
[13:43]my reading life was this inheritance and really this, this
[13:47]labor of love that came from him would have been impossible to
[13:51]talk about to talk about reading without talking about
[13:55]love and without talking about my love for him.
[13:57]Wow. Well, that's beautiful. I'm sorry.
[14:00]It's for your loss. There was something else I wanted to read
[14:03]that you have a whole section on, you know, all the anti-Asian violence
[14:07]going on and you gave a bunch of examples and you said, you know, in
[14:11]1984 when my mom was heavily pregnant, she was standing in line at a
[14:15]department store when an older woman violently shoved her to the ground,
[14:19]no one around helped. And Montreal in 2004, my aunt was once pushed by a
[14:23]young man into the way of a coming subway car,
[14:26]miraculously surviving by huddling between the rails just beneath the train
[14:30]rushing above her. When at 19, I lived on my own in Paris, I became a
[14:35]friendly my apartment because an older man who had seen me in a
[14:37]neighborhood cafe had begun stalking me, not to mention the nearly endless
[14:41]stream of woe, i.e. and knee, how am I from men who
[14:45]that would greet me whenever I stepped foot outside and you go on and on
[14:49]and you know, you say there are major issues around how we critically
[14:52]analyze anti-Asian racism in both an American and a global context
[14:56]is clear that this kind of scapegoating is not new, even in the latest,
[14:59]latest Trumpian iteration. They're also vast community of, well,
[15:02]anyway, you go on and on and on and on. But I wanted to talk, I mean,
[15:04]not like that. You go on to write about this topic more,
[15:10]but I just wanted to highlight all those experiences in your own
[15:13]personal life of people that you love and your yourself and how
[15:16]that affects the whole culture of your family or how you
[15:21]just tell me how you all internalize that and be like, okay, and now I'm
[15:25]just going to pop outside again, you know?
[15:28]Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I don't really think that you do, or in the
[15:31]sense of I think most people who experience, I mean, frankly, just the
[15:36]PTSD of living in America, I think a lot of it is
[15:39]compartmentalizing. I think a lot of it. I mean, my, my family could win
[15:42]the Olympics for repression. So, and I think, and I absolutely would win
[15:49]the gold medal and, and know that about myself. I was just joking to
[15:54]someone about the recent persuasion adaptation. And obviously, I'm,
[15:58]I'm not, I won't get into it because then we'll be here for three hours,
[16:01]but I was like, I was like, this is repressed person
[16:05]erasure, like, and Elliot is an earth side and a repressed, but we need
[16:09]repressed person representation. But so yes, I mean, I think that,
[16:14]you know, I think, well, when I was writing this, I mean, all of those,
[16:17]all of the episodes that I'm talking about, I mean,
[16:20]when the accumulation of them, the, the, the accretion of their force, when
[16:25]you, when you write them in the paragraph, obviously, I mean,
[16:28]you know, I was at, in researching all of that, I found the old sort of
[16:34]news clipping about my aunt, who, the one who had been pushed
[16:37]into the way of the subway car, and I was looking at her photo in the,
[16:40]in this Canadian newspaper and the description of it, I'm just going,
[16:44]Jesus, you know, it's one thing to have. I think a lot of, I mean, many of us have
[16:48]family stories that then become legend, but then also become, their edges become
[16:52]worn down with time, just because you tell the story or because, you know,
[16:55]survival requires you to, to wear those edges down. But, you know, faced with
[17:01]those material, the material facts of it, I mean,
[17:04]sort of renews its horror for me. But I think because of that, you know,
[17:08]because of my experience in, in France, which I talk about,
[17:12]having, having lived in France and, and having, you know,
[17:16]Asian-French friends who also experience the kind of, I mean, just ramping,
[17:21]fetishizing, and vandalizing, sexualizing that I think attends Asian women,
[17:26]not just in France, obviously, but in, here in America, here, I mean,
[17:30]that time was a formative time in my life and I happen to be in France, but it's one that's,
[17:33]it's an experience that I know. I mean, in all of my group chats and all of my messages
[17:37]is shared by, uh, Asian women friends that I know that that grief and that rage and that terror,
[17:44]that all of that is real here, irrepressible. And at the same time, I think it's also important for
[17:52]me to talk about all of the places where Asian-American or, or the Asian-American politics
[17:59]American solidarity also fall short, you know, where are the places where, for example,
[18:04]you know, that it's a kind of an ongoing frustration of mine that there's always,
[18:07]there's often these lists of like Asian, AAPI readers that you, or AAPI writers,
[18:12]you should read or books, you should read and the list, they're all Asian-American,
[18:15]but there's no Pacific Islander, sort of, authors on that list. There's no books by Pacific
[18:20]Islanders or writers from Guam or Hawaii or some more or anything on those lists.
[18:26]Oh, okay. This is just false advertising. Or, you know, the ways where, the ways that
[18:32]pull towards, you know, representation matters type of discourse can pull us towards the
[18:38]kind of idea, a regime of positive representation or representation where, you know,
[18:44]I mean, the majority of the stories that we see do focus on, for example, middle class,
[18:48]East Asian and South Asian families. And there is an illusion of the experiences of,
[18:54]you know, Southeast Asian poor Southeast Asian communities for marginalized Southeast Asian
[19:00]or marginalized Asian communities like Asian sex workers, Asian domestic laborers, you know,
[19:05]the kinds of, it's an understatement to say that, you know, the Asian American community is not a
[19:10]monolith. I mean, it's both the, it's both the, what is it that I'm trying to remember,
[19:17]numbers are not my strength, but the statistic that I talk about in that essay is talking about
[19:24]I think Asian's rank per capita is the highest earning racial group in the states. And that's
[19:29]not highest earning racial group of color, that's highest earning racial group period. But at the
[19:34]same time, it's also the group that has the most disparity in terms of, yeah, income in terms of
[19:41]wealth. So we have the, even just talking about the class issues that are within Asian American
[19:47]community and that are so central to talking about what we talk about Asian American politics,
[19:53]you know, even things like that. I think we need to be discussed more. We need to have a sort of
[19:59]a one.
[20:00]and a thornier conversation about Asian American,
[20:05]you know, the kind of Asian American politics
[20:10]that we're trying to produce in order
[20:13]to have Asian Americans solidarity.
[20:16]Amazing.
[20:17]You just teach a class on this.
[20:18]I feel like, no, seriously.
[20:20]I feel like you're devoid of the podium
[20:23]that should be in front of you.
[20:24]Oh, really?
[20:25]Oh, really.
[20:26]You're like, it all comes out in fully-farmed senses.
[20:29]You're just like, go, and there it is.
[20:30]It's perfect.
[20:32]I like it's a skill, that's an,
[20:34]you know, when I come in.
[20:35]What advice would you have for aspiring authors,
[20:37]especially as such a big career in somebody who
[20:41]has analyzed reading so much, reading in all its forms
[20:43]as you carefully lay out in the book?
[20:45]It's funny.
[20:46]You know, I think my old advice used to be like,
[20:49]oh yeah, read more, just read all the time.
[20:51]And now I think, well, this is probably
[20:54]it's gonna become clear that I'm also like a contrarian.
[20:56]So if I say one thing, or think I believe one thing,
[20:58]almost immediately, I have to say or think the opposite
[21:01]or challenge myself to think the opposite.
[21:03]But I think recently I have been, even just
[21:05]for the aspiring author that I am,
[21:08]I've been telling myself that, or I've been feeling
[21:12]that it actually behooves me to not read less exactly,
[21:17]but I mean, the outcome will be that one reads less,
[21:20]but to read more slowly, because I think we all,
[21:22]especially nowadays, have this immense pressure
[21:25]to just keep up, there's this real like,
[21:27]oh, if I'm not reading the thing that's in the zeit,
[21:29]guys, if I'm not, and I'm saying this is someone
[21:31]who literally has a book out.
[21:32]So I recognize that there's a self-defeating aspect
[21:37]to what I'm saying here.
[21:38]But you can feel that reading can also become this
[21:43]kind of like right to not feel formal
[21:46]because everyone else is talking about this thing.
[21:48]And I mean, I think I'm lucky in that sense
[21:50]because I think a lot of writers,
[21:51]especially if you're working on a novel,
[21:52]you're always like, I'm always like five years behind,
[21:56]just because, you know, you read weird stuff
[21:58]to research the weird, whatever weird universe
[22:01]you're writing about anyway.
[22:02]But I do think I'm reading slowly,
[22:06]reading weirdly, reading out of time, you know,
[22:09]not necessarily always reading.
[22:11]This is like the nightmare for contemporary publishing houses
[22:15]to be like, don't read the latest book.
[22:16]They're like, no, please read the latest book.
[22:18]But I mean, for us, it's citizens for us as people
[22:22]and readers.
[22:23]I think it really benefits us.
[22:25]I mean, I read, I started reading Edith Wharton recently,
[22:28]like, age of innocence.
[22:30]And then I'm like texting people, I'm like,
[22:31]this is the best book I've ever been.
[22:33]Like, where have you been?
[22:34]Obviously, it's the best.
[22:36]You know, and then I think the flip side to that
[22:39]for aspiring authors is, and this is kind of a mean advice,
[22:43]but it's advice I'm turning towards myself,
[22:45]which is that I'm trying to read slower,
[22:47]but I'm trying to write faster.
[22:49]In the sense that I think the prevailing wisdom is the opposite,
[22:53]which is like, read, read more,
[22:55]but then also write and take your time
[22:56]and make everything perfect and really agonize over it.
[22:59]And I'm starting to be like, don't be afraid of,
[23:01]just, it might be mediocre, fam.
[23:04]Just, I mean, or to have less kind of anxiety
[23:07]about whether or not like, oh, is this perfect?
[23:09]Is this everything?
[23:11]Cause I think you can also, I mean, well, you know,
[23:14]there's lots of, I think there's enough mid stuff out there
[23:19]that why should you be afraid of not putting out
[23:22]something per, you know, of God for being
[23:24]to put out something that's not perfect.
[23:26]So in a way, I think sort of having a less precious
[23:29]relationship to just try to rest in the bad.
[23:32]Yeah, right? Something's bad.
[23:34]I'm fun with that.
[23:37]I think it can be really fun.
[23:39]You can be pleasantly surprised
[23:40]if it's anything other than bad.
[23:42]Honestly, exactly.
[23:43]If you're like, I'm going to write something really bad
[23:44]and then it's like, kind of okay.
[23:49]And also you're always your own worst critic.
[23:52]I mean, you know, you might think it's bad people
[23:54]like this is better than the majority
[23:56]of stuff out there, my girl soul, you know.
[23:58]Yeah.
[23:59]Well, Elaine, thank you so much.
[24:02]This has been really fun.
[24:03]Thank you so much for having me.
[24:04]I will take my leoness and, you know,
[24:06]hit the road in this little month I have, I don't know.
[24:10]Yes, happy leoness even to both of you.
[24:13]Thank you.
[24:14]Thank you.
[24:15]Your book and I will have a fabulous month together
[24:17]in the spotlight.
[24:18]So, you know.
[24:19]Yeah.
[24:20]It was so, so fun.
[24:21]Thank you so much.
[24:22]Thanks, Elaine.
[24:23]So, bye.
[24:25]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[24:27]to Read Books.
[24:28]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[24:31]at Zebioans and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[24:34]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zebioans.com
[24:36]and sign up for my virtual book club
[24:38]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[24:40]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[24:42]at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[24:44]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[24:46]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.