Jessica Knoll, LUCKIEST GIRL ALIVE: A Novel

[1:30]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, the creator and host of the award winning podcast that you're listening to right now. Thank you so much. Called Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. It is a daily podcast three hundred and sixty five days a year, and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career, their book, their life, and more in thirty minutes or less because who has time? I am now an author myself, although I wasn't when I started this podcast, and you can get my new memoir, A Memoir of Love, Loss, and Literature wherever books are sold starting July 1, and my children's book, Princess Charming. You can learn more about me at zbowens.com. But, really, you're here to learn more about the authors, and that is what we're going to do. Also, be sure to check out all the other podcasts in the ZCast Podcast Network. You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com and definitely check out those shows as well.

[3:42]Zibby Owens: Jessica lives in Los Angeles with her husband and bulldog Beatrice. Welcome, Jessica. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Luckiest Girl Alive, which is now a Netflix, not just Netflix show, but like number one Netflix show, which is amazing. So welcome. Thank you so much. So exciting. Okay. Well, you have two books. You have an adaptation. You've spent years writing this from book to screen. Where do we even start? I'm so excited for you. So let's start with Luckiest Girl Alive, writing it and what this whole adaptation has been like for you. Yeah. Go start there. So

[4:21]Jessica Knoll: I started writing Luckiest Girl Alive at my kitchen table in my when I lived in New York City, my little apartment at like six in the morning before I went into work. I was an editor and a writer at Cosmopolitan magazine. And in I mean, this was like probably 2013. And in magazine world, you don't have to like be in the office until like 09:30, ten. So I used to use that morning time to like go to a workout class. And when I finally decided like it, I, you know, when when the voice of the character, Ani Finale finally kind of came to me and things started coalescing, I realized that I was freshest in the morning. And because I was spending all day like writing and pitching ideas and like it was already a very creative use of my time throughout the day. By the time I got home, I was just like, I'm shot. Like there's nothing good left in me. So I started just waking up early and getting like an hour or two at my kitchen table. And it was just a really like magical year that I wrote that book. It felt like the story just poured out of me. I felt so like personally and creatively fulfilled writing this book. And then the reception of how it was published and how excited Simon and Schuster was about it and how readers responded to it. It really was like a fairy tale for me. Yeah. And then adapting it, not so much of a fairy tale because it took so long and it was so hard and there were so many points where I never thought it would move forward. And I even have moments now that I can't believe it was finally made into a movie and that that even happened because I just saw being on set how much money, how much work, how much labor, how much has to come together in order for anything to make it to the screen. And I just feel like really weirdly humbled by the whole experience. Like, oh my God, one of my things like people cared enough to come together and make this into the movie that it is today. So, yeah. Been a long journey.

[6:47]Zibby Owens: Wow. How did you even know how to go about adapting? Right? I can see more of a jump. Not that it's so easy to even write a novel. Maybe I should have started there. Like, being an editor to writing a novel is another huge jump.

[7:01]Jessica Knoll: Yeah. It is a jump, but you're right. It's oh, it's like a hop. It really is. And that's not to undervalue myself or anyone else who does it. But in the magazine world, it was fairly commonplace that editors and writers had book deals and had these kind of separate lives publishing books. So part of why I say that was just a hop was I was in an office every day, surround my boss at the time, John Searles, who's a novelist. Oh yeah, I love him. The editor in chief of the magazine at the time I was there. Kate White, also a novelist. So I have people that I could look to and be like, oh, they've done it. And I could be like, how did you do it? So it just felt less kind of mysterious and like something that I could actually do, which I think I really truly don't know how anyone does that. Does it alone in a vacuum, like without like kind of talking to anyone who's like gone through the experience before. That to me is like, that's brave. You know, I really had a lot of people around me who were encouraging me and who were role models to me. The adaptation part was much more of a jump. And when I look back now, I think what was most influential to me, because the book was optioned in spring of twenty fifteen and I was really, really dogged about being the one to adapt it myself. And I think where my kind of role model was in all of that, not that I even know her or have ever even met her, but Gone Girl was such a phenomenon. And then all the news was that like Gillian Flynn was adapting it with David Fincher. And I always saw Gillian Flynn where I was like, she started in magazines. She was an editor at Entertainment Weekly. Then she started writing books. Now she's written this massively successful and one of my favorite books of all time, Gone Girl. And she's never written anything for the screen, but she's going to adapt it herself. So I think I saw that and I was like, wait, I want that too. And that really made me feel like it was possible and that a studio would agree to it because there was such a big example of it out there. It was still pretty difficult to get them to agree to it. And then of course, had to prove myself once they did. Then I actually had to write it. And then I had to actually write it. But writing a script is much more collaborative than writing a book. It almost reminds me of writing for magazines in that your producers and the executives at whatever studio or streamer you're at almost act as like your top editors. Like you're constantly churning in drafts and they're like, okay, this is working, this isn't working. And you get these like massive notes documents. So that doesn't really happen in books. Yeah, you have your editor, but they will be like, this isn't working. And then you have to kind of go figure it out. And it's just kind of that one person. So I don't know. You always hear film is really collaborative. Like it's so true. And there's so many people weighing in at every turn and helping you shape it and craft it that you're kind of like even people who that's what they do for a living, they're seasoned screenwriters, they're still dealing with that. So I was like, oh, if you're getting someone who's kind of helping you shape it from the side, that I can handle. You don't have to just like sit in a room and do this by yourself and like pray that it works. Like you are really getting feedback along the way.

[10:52]Zibby Owens: Wow. And I heard there, I read that you interviewed what, like 150

[10:57]Jessica Knoll: or auditioned a 150 people to play the role. Is that true? Something like that? So for the for Mila, Mila Kunis plays the main character as an adult. And then for the scenes where she's in high school, the casting director told us that over 1,500 girls 1,500. Oh my gosh. Submitted tapes for the role, which then they narrowed it down, I think, to like their top 10, which we as the producers and the director and Netflix watched. And we were all like, it has to be Chiara Aurelia. Like she was, you know, far and away like our young Tiffany Fanelli. And she's so amazing in the movie and such an amazing young woman. Like, I'm so impressed by her. She's so young and so poised. And I just think she has like such an exciting career ahead of her.

[11:49]Zibby Owens: It's always great to discover new talent. Exactly. And you have been really open about your own personal experience as it relates to this book and the plot of the book and what happened to you when you were younger. Can you talk about that a little? Yeah.

[12:03]Jessica Knoll: So the book is fiction and you know, it took probably, so the book came out in 2015. It was fiction. People in my life knew the real story, like my husband and close friends, family, obviously, because they were there during it. But publicly, even with my publisher and at book events, you know, women would come up to me and ask, have you experienced sexual assault because the way it's depicted in the book feels so realistic. And I can say that because I've experienced it and I have never really read anything where I've just, I believe it, you know, like I'm like, this feels so representative of what I experienced and what I went through. And I never knew how to answer that in that first year the book came out, I felt so awkward about being like, yes, I don't know. Like, I just it was like this natural response was to it just felt uncomfortable and I didn't want to like myself uncomfortable. I didn't want to make anyone else uncomfortable. So I was just like, oh, no, it's just fiction. And then a year after the book came out, we were reissuing it as a paperback. And so I had a meeting at Simon and Schuster and we were talking about ways to launch the paperback. I was going to do another book tour. And I said at that meeting, I was like, well, if I wrote something about, you know, own experience, you know, very similar to what the character goes through. And I remember everyone at Simon and Schuster, they were just like gobsmacked. They were like, wait, we had no like this is based on like real events. And I was like, yeah. And I felt so uncomfortable. Was like blushing. Sorry. Like, is so awkward. And they were like, yes, you have to write that. Like, if you're comfortable enough to write about that, like, like, please, like, that's like, it's amazing that you told us this. And so I went home and at the time Lenny Letter was a website, a newsletter that Lena Dunham had started and Jenny Connor. And I knew the editor of it, a woman named Jessica Gross, because we had just crossed paths in the magazine world over the years. And I think they had featured Luckiest Girl Alive as a book that they had loved, that people should read. And so Jess had always said, if you want to write something for us, email me. And so I went home and I emailed her that day and she wrote back within minutes and was like, I just read this to Jenny and Lina and I'm 100% like we're honored you want to like publish this essay. So the essay is called What I Know and it talks about the dedication of my book, Luckiest Girl Alive. It just says to all the Tiffany Fidelis of the world I know, and people would often ask me what that meant. Like, what do I know? And so the essay is all about, and it lives on my website now because Lenny Letter is defunct. But if you are interested in reading it, you can just go to my website to read it. But yeah, and that's how that all came

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[18:32]Zibby Owens: And how do you feel having it all out there? Right? Like, it there's it's one thing to say into a room of executives, right, but then like knowing that something you kept so private is so public. Like, do feel it's allowed you to process what happened in your own sexual experience any more? Like, has it been somewhat therapeutic? Do you have any regrets about being open about it? No. I have no regrets. It was absolutely a necessary part of the process.

[19:04]Jessica Knoll: It was very validating to tell my story in that essay. And you know, the day it came out, I remember I woke up and I was actually, so many people called me brave the day the essay came out, but I need people to understand that like, I only was able to write that essay because of the year I spent with the book being out talking to women who read the scene, the sexual assault scene in the book and called it rape. Because when I was in high school, it was the narrative was it was a party that got out of control and I was a slut who had participated in the events. So just by nature of capturing what had happened at that party verbatim and then having people read that and say to me like, oh, the rape scene or whatever, I'm like, you don't know what you're giving me. Like you're giving me, you're telling me you believe me, which like no one gave that to me when I was young. So I got that. So for like a year, my confidence was like built up by those conversations with readers. And then by the time I wrote my essay, I actually felt excited and ready. Like I was like, I'm ready. I'm ready to set the narrative straight. And I know I'm going to get support because the readers have proven to me that like they believe me and they're going to stand by me when I tell this story. So I remember waking up that morning, it came out. I woke up super early and I rolled over and I opened Twitter. I'm not on Twitter anymore, but I was at the time. And I remember a writer that I really admire, a woman named Sarah Weinman had tweeted, if you read one thing this morning, let it be Jessica Noles essay in Lenny Letter. And it just set the course for the rest of the day. And like I went on the Today, like I got a call from The Today Show that day being like, will you come down here? Like, and that's why we have in the movie, goes to her essay takes off and she goes to The Today Show. That's exactly what happened to me. It was absolutely healing to have the world respond to my story in kind to hear from people I went to high school with saying, you know, I'm so sorry I didn't see it like that back then. If there's anything I did that contributed to kind of the bullying and the shaming that happened, like I'm so sorry. And yeah, it was a real necessary part of the process. And I think a lot of women who experienced sexual assault, they don't get, we never get that moment because so much of the experience is people like kind of trying to talk, gaslight you and talk you out of it, you know, like, oh no, I mean, I'm sure he didn't mean it like that. Or he had been drinking too. Or it's like, you never get that moment where people are like, I hear you. I see you. Your pain is valid. And like, I share in that with you. Like so many women don't get that at the time. And to even get it seventeen years later, so many people don't even get that. So it was hugely healing. Oh my gosh. Just the fact that the readers like people feel like reading a book is an intake only, but actually it's

[22:26]Zibby Owens: an output as well. There is a relationship that you don't even see necessarily with the author, but the reaction and what you get out of it and then what you transform. I mean, it's amazing. Right? It's like

[22:38]Jessica Knoll: I love that you said that. Cheryl Strayed said that to me once too. She said the writing is, it's like, you know, for her wild people, for her that for a lot of people that was a gift about grief and a way of talking and thinking and processing grief that a lot of people didn't have before they read Wilde. And Cheryl said something very, I love that you said that because that's the second time I've heard it. And I think it's so true that you give people something in the writing and then they give you something back, you know? And so there's this exchange that happens. That's just a really beautiful thing.

[23:21]Zibby Owens: Yes. Wow. That's amazing. For people who haven't read it or seen the Netflix version yet, can you just in a couple like a sentence or two explain what

[23:34]Jessica Knoll: it's about,

[23:37]Zibby Owens: but also the sexual assault you were talking about, which I know I've researched, but you know. Yeah.

[23:43]Jessica Knoll: So story centers, Luckiest Girl Life centers on Ani Finnelli and when you meet her, she seems to have it all. She's got the great job. She's living in New York City. She's planning her wedding to a guy who's from, you know, a very well-to-do family. And she's like on the precipice of really having it all. And she's visited by a documentary film director who wants to make a film, tell a story about a very shocking incident from her past and has invited her to participate in it and talk about what happened to her. And so it's really this moment where it's like, do I move ahead with my life? Do I get married? Do I bury that? Do I change my name? Do I become someone completely different? Do I put all of that in the past or do I go back there and finally deal with this because I've spent my life and the character spent her life trying to run from it and hide from it and reinvent and all of these things which you can try but you can't outrun it. You have to at some point turn around and face it. And so what comes out in, she agrees to do the documentary and what comes out in the process of filming is that when she was in high school, she attended a party where three boys, three classmates, one of whom she had a crush on and wanted to date assault her. And it's in the book, it's exactly how it happened to me. The movie is slightly different, but yeah. And she's had a lot of alcohol and she keeps kind of coming to in various situations She comes to for each assault, and the assault escalates and it gets more and more violent as the night goes on. And then she wakes up in the morning and everyone is like acting like it was just a crazy party and she's a crazy party animal. Oh my God, like what a night that one goes down in the books and she's just lying there like something horrible happened to me last night. I've been violated and she tries to speak up about it and she's just silenced at every turn. And so what she takes from that is people don't believe me. People don't want to hear about my pain. So you know what? I'm just going to shut up and focus on chiseling my way out of here. And then I'm going to prove to everyone that I'm someone important. I'm someone respectable. And that really informs a lot of the choices she makes as an adult. And as for me, too, that's kind of how I live my life before I started therapy.

[26:36]Zibby Owens: Maybe stay out of therapy so you can just like keep writing these amazing things about it. Know what mean? Well, I am so sorry that you went through that in your life and it is horrific and it's just terrible. But the way that you've shared it, even in fiction and through all of the things you're doing is so amazing. And as you've seen, like helping so many people. That is not an easy, easy task. And I'm sorry to keep going into this. But the guys involved, what has happened there since this has come out? Anything? Really nothing. You know, when the essay came out,

[27:12]Jessica Knoll: there was some kind of scuttlebutt at the school. The headmaster kind of wrote like a school wide email kind of acknowledging the event. I did know that at the time, in saying that, of course they were devastated to learn about it and they had no idea about it at the time. And then I did hear that someone had written the Headmaster and I guess they CC'd my Lit agent so that it would get back to me. It was someone who went to my high school, but was a couple of years older than me. So we were never even at the high school at the same time. But I guess he was in college at the time that the assault happened. And I guess even he had heard about it. And so he was kind of accusing the administration of like, come on, there's no way you didn't get wind of this. Like I heard about it and I'm hundreds of mile away wherever he was in college and not even a couple of years older than these kids and I still heard about it. And yeah, I've not seen, my parents left that area of Philadelphia when I was in college. So that's not even home. I don't go back there anymore. I live in LA. Before that I lived in New York. So I haven't had any communication with them, which is fine. You know, I don't need it. I really, it's weird. Like, I think people always want to hear that, like, they they got what was coming to them, you know, or like their comeuppance or something. And I always thought I I would and I always want that for other people when I hear their stories. But for myself, I'm just like, I really don't need it. It's very strange. Like, I'm just like, I would think I would be the type of person who would need that, but I'm like, no, there's it's so much harder. The work is really in how I deal with it, how it affects my marriage, how it affects my friendships, how it affects my relationships with my parents. There's a lot of work to be done there. And I just feel like my focus is on that.

[29:17]Zibby Owens: Well, that's exactly right. I mean, why waste your energy on thing you can't do that? Yeah. I mean, not like you need my

[29:25]Jessica Knoll: justification. Oh yeah, you're handling this right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll take your stamp of approval. That's fine.

[29:32]Zibby Owens: What are you and we didn't even talk about your next book, but what are you working on now? What are you excited about? Are you I know you wrote another screenplay that everything is all over the place. It's amazing. Yeah. There's tons of stuff going on, which is really exciting. So I just turned in. So I wrote a second book, The Favorite Sister, which came out in 2018

[29:50]Jessica Knoll: that has been set up for a TV show with made up stories, which is Bruno Papandrea's production company and also was the producer on Luckiest Girl Alive. And now actually Mila Kunis and her producing partner, Lisa Sturbachauk have come on as producers for that as well because we had such a great time making the film together last summer. And then I just turned in my third book like a couple of weeks ago. And yeah, I think that's going to come out in September 2023. So that's really exciting. I wrote an original script that I sold to Amazon. We have a great director attached to that, Nisha Ganatra. We're in the casting process now. And right now, the thing I'm working on is I'm adapting a viral Reddit thread called My Mother-in-law Was Trying to Poison Me, but then I found out why. It is so much fun. I'm adapting it into a feature length film for Sony. Everyone should just go read this this Reddit story. It's amazing. It's like I read so many thrillers and so many things that have twists and turns and whatever. So I feel like I'm always like, yeah, I saw that coming. I did not see this one coming. It's really fun. Go read it. It subverts some really kind of sexist mother-in-law tropes, which I love. So it's gonna be a really fun one. I'm having a lot of fun working on it. Oh my gosh. And you're one of like the screenwriters to watch, right? That's amazing. Yeah. Variety last year, they do like the 10 screenwriters to watch. And so I was one of those last year, which was such an honor. My gosh. Yeah. I I'm watching you. You have both. You.

[31:32]Zibby Owens: Wow. Well, Jessica, this has been so fun. I wish we had more time. I had so many more questions I wanted to ask you. And I haven't seen the film yet, but I am so excited to do so this weekend. That is my plan, nice and chilly here at the coast, and I can't wait. So when I see you next, we can discuss. Yeah. But, anyway, thank you for coming on. And and I know you said it's not brave or whatever, but it's important. And so it's very well respected and bravo for me for what it's worth. Thanks, Zippy. Thanks for having me. Alright. Have a great day. You too. Bye. We'll see you soon. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and momsdonthavetimetoreadbooks. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.