Rick Reilly, SO HELP ME GOLF: Why We Love the Game
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now
[0:07]Thank you so much. Called moms. Don't have time to read books
[0:10]It is a daily podcast
[0:12]365 days a year and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career
[0:18]Their book their life and more in 30 minutes or less because who has time?
[0:22]I am now an author myself
[0:24]Although I wasn't when I started this podcast and you can get my new memoir book ends
[0:29]A memoir of love, loss and literature wherever books are sold starting July 1st and my children's book prints is charming
[0:36]You can learn more about me at zimbyones.com
[0:39]But really you're here to learn more about the authors and that is what we're going to do
[0:43]Also be sure to check out all the other podcasts in the zcast podcast network
[0:49]You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com and definitely check out those shows as well
[0:54]Rick Riley is the author of So Help Me Golf. Why we love the game a
[1:02]screenwriter and New York Times best-selling author Rick Riley wrote for sports illustrated and appeared on and wrote for ESPN
[1:09]In addition to being voted the national sports writer of the year 11 times
[1:13]He has been recognized with the Damon Runyon Award for Outstanding Contributions to journalism
[1:17]USA Today called him the closest thing sports writing ever had to a rock star
[1:21]Welcome Rick. Thank you so much for coming on moms don't have time to read books to discuss so help me golf
[1:27]Why we love the game?
[1:29]What are moms doing? There's no time to read a book
[1:33]Then there's definitely no time to play golf
[1:35]No, it's gonna say how do they take how do they take four and a half hours to play golf?
[1:40]I actually used to play golf for a little bit and once I realized it was okay to play nine
[1:45]You know, my mom is a really serious golfer
[1:47]So for her that is like not an option, you know, but I was like I'm just you know
[1:51]There is an option where I could go out and like have fun and play nine holes and
[1:55]God forbid not even count what I get. She's like what?
[2:00]Right wouldn't it have been such a better game if they had just stopped at nine. Yeah, would have saved so many marriages
[2:06]I think so. Why 18 and two hours see you later. Yeah
[2:11]I mean people complained about reading books, but honestly two rounds of golf and you could have read an entire book
[2:16]You know what I do is I sometimes I got practice just by myself with my bag and I have
[2:21]You know those boats sunglasses that have the speakers in them. Yep, listen to books as I walk along. Oh
[2:28]Maybe they're not time to listen to books. Maybe not. Yeah, that's interesting. Yep
[2:33]Play two rounds of golf. Listen to a book. All right. We'll start a new campaign. We could start with your book
[2:38]You know, I did do the I did the audio
[2:41]I have done 15 books and this one the first ones I ever read
[2:45]allowed and
[2:48]You don't realize that there's emotional parts in it that you when you say how loud
[2:53]I came apart. I started crying three times
[2:57]And there was you know, he's either about my dad or my grandson or my son or what the wife whatever it was
[3:03]And you don't really realize the power of saying it out loud
[3:07]And it just seems more real. I think I totally agree. I just wrote a memoir
[3:11]And I read my own audiobook also and I knew from interviewing so many authors to expect to be like caught off guard
[3:18]By how emotional it was so I was still
[3:21]Intellectually prepared, but emotionally it made no difference
[3:24]So for my publishing company, I was literally just talking to somebody yesterday
[3:27]I was like before any of our authors record an audiobook
[3:29]I'm going to make them a care package with a huge box of tissues and like all these things and say like watch out
[3:36]This will be intense
[3:38]Yeah, and I'm terrible. I cried I'm a Donald's ad, you know
[3:41]I cry if a pen runs out of ink. I'm just the worst
[3:45]I don't think that's the worst. I think that's the best and I
[3:47]My wife is over there going you are you cry too much
[3:52]Note no such thing. It's it's it's great to have that level of sensitivity
[3:56]So I know you've written a bazillion bucks
[3:58]Can you tell listeners a little more about what so helped me golf is about and why this book now?
[4:03]Well, it's my valentine to golf
[4:05]All the love things I love about it and stories I've saved for 40 years covering golf
[4:10]And not not professional golf especially but real golf guys people women men to play aren't very good funny things that happened
[4:18]And a lot of emotional things my dad was a drunk. He was a drunk golfer and I
[4:23]I hated how golf made him come home drunk and beat on us
[4:27]And then later we I realized it wasn't golf's fault, you know
[4:31]It was it was his fault
[4:33]And so then I fell in love with golf as a teenager
[4:36]And then grew to love it even more and then why now is because during covid
[4:41]I've always wanted to write this book and in sports writer
[4:44]We have a thing called saving strength. I was saving strength for this book for 40 years
[4:49]And finally, I had some time
[4:52]And so that's why now
[4:54]Interesting did you read this during covid? Yeah, I wrote it during covid
[4:57]But then a lot of it. I had to go out and research more stuff
[5:00]And so then you know, I had to kind of wait for covid to die down
[5:04]Yeah, it was a lot of travel with this, but it was also just memories
[5:08]I went around the world once in the 80s
[5:11]Playing the most unforgettable holes in the world
[5:14]And the sports illustrator let me do it and it was supposed to be a two-part article
[5:19]But then by the time I got back a month later
[5:22]They had fired the guy that signed me this story
[5:25]And he was gone and so they didn't care about it
[5:27]So I saved all those notes
[5:29]And I kept adding to it like
[5:31]Oh, I've heard there's a hole in Africa where you hit
[5:35]You take a helicopter to a peak and hit down
[5:38]Or there's an underwater hole
[5:40]Or there's a hole in Bali where a monkey steal your ball
[5:43]So I just kept going around the world and doing these great trips
[5:47]And of course, people let you play their course free that way
[5:50]So then I had all that stuff
[5:51]So that was that's like a 10-page part of the book
[5:55]There were a couple of parts that I just wanted to
[5:57]To highlight quickly
[5:59]The part where you accidentally played at the Denver country club
[6:02]Was hiring thinking you were on a public course
[6:04]Can you talk about that?
[6:05]Well, I was kind of raised by my brother
[6:07]He's seven years older
[6:09]And he got me into golf
[6:10]And so we played at this crummy terrible course in Boulder, Colorado
[6:15]But finally he said, you know, we could go to Denver
[6:18]And play golf there and I'm like, what?
[6:20]I never even been to Denver
[6:22]And I think he was 19 and I was 12
[6:25]And so we took his old jalopy
[6:27]And we played two rounds
[6:29]One was at this crappy municipal in Denver
[6:32]Which was better than ours
[6:33]And the second one was at a place called Park Hill
[6:36]So we think we're there
[6:37]And we go there
[6:39]And we run in like this is fantastic
[6:40]There's flowers everywhere
[6:42]And we run into the pro shop like 130 Riley
[6:45]And they said all your names not on the book
[6:48]But there's nobody out there just go ahead
[6:50]And we're looking at each other like, this guy's doing us a favor
[6:53]Thanks a lot
[6:54]And we look at the tee box
[6:56]We're like, this is better than our greens
[6:58]This is the most beautiful place we've ever played
[7:00]And there was a box of free teas
[7:02]And free ball markers
[7:04]And we'd always had to pay, you know, 25 cents
[7:06]To reach in the jar to take your teas
[7:09]So this is free tea
[7:10]So we pop our pockets, our full of teas
[7:13]We hit our hard shots
[7:14]And we're walking down the fairway
[7:16]Just flying with happiness
[7:19]And the guy pulls up in the cart and says
[7:21]Do you guys know where you are
[7:23]And my brother's like
[7:25]Park Hill
[7:26]He said, no, you're at the Denver Country Club
[7:29]And we've never even seen a country club
[7:32]He goes, are your dads?
[7:34]Is your mom and dad a member?
[7:35]And my brother goes, yeah
[7:38]And he goes, no they're not
[7:40]And he puts in the cart
[7:41]We didn't even go get a get our ball
[7:43]I'll remember that
[7:44]I was right in the middle of the fairway too
[7:45]And he wouldn't even let us go get our ball
[7:48]And kick this off
[7:49]But the irony of that is years, years, years, years later
[7:52]I became a member of Denver Country Club
[7:55]But it was never as fun
[7:57]It was never as fun as that first shot
[7:59]And only shot we got to hit us
[8:01]as interlopers
[8:04]I love that
[8:05]I also love how you talk about caddies
[8:07]You say golf is the one place where a man who sleeps on satin
[8:10]Will take advice from a man who sleeps on streets
[8:13]Golf is like that
[8:14]Golf is so hard
[8:15]It strips a guy down to his soul
[8:17]The caddy, his only ally, gets a front row seat to it
[8:20]Which is why I spent a year caddy and very badly for all kinds of famous golfers
[8:24]And then you go on to talk about Casey Martin
[8:27]But it's true to talk to me about that
[8:29]Oh it was so fun, you know
[8:30]I had never caddyed
[8:31]So I did this book called Who's Your Caddy
[8:33]And a caddy for Donald Trump
[8:36]Deepak Chopra, a blind guy
[8:39]A guy who bets $50,000 a whole
[8:42]Jack Nicholas
[8:45]A lot of interesting people
[8:47]And I would say that the
[8:50]The strain, the most interesting was Trump
[8:53]Because this was when he was just a business man
[8:55]And we knew him from the world of sports
[8:57]I'm a sports writer
[8:59]And he was always just full of self holy shit
[9:01]But it was fun, right?
[9:02]If it didn't matter
[9:04]He was just lying like crazy and saying stuff
[9:06]And we were like yeah sure tell us more stuff
[9:10]So he said when you get a ride about me
[9:13]Because I was his favorite sports writer
[9:15]And so I finally called him and said hey I'm doing this book I'd like
[9:18]And right about you now
[9:20]Let me caddy for you
[9:22]And that day he took seven mulligans
[9:25]He took a gimme chip in
[9:26]So you know what a gimme putt is
[9:28]He took a gimme chip in
[9:30]Oh my gosh
[9:30]Dude just take a gimme chip in
[9:32]Because I've never heard of that
[9:35]He was well I never missed those
[9:36]I'm like
[9:37]You chip like Stevie Wonder
[9:40]But he was fun
[9:41]But he was full of shit
[9:42]And then he was introducing me as
[9:45]Rick Riley president of sports illustrator
[9:47]And I'm like no I'm just a writer
[9:49]And I'm like why do you keep lying about me?
[9:51]He's like a hot sounds better
[9:53]And I remember he introduced me to the chef
[9:56]This is Luigi's voted best hamburger chef in the world
[10:00]And let me just like, no, no, it's not through.
[10:02]What is this world centered?
[10:05]And then that guy became president.
[10:08]He's like, oh, that's what blows us away in sports
[10:13]that this guy became president.
[10:15]Because he was always like, for instance,
[10:17]he bought a USFL team.
[10:18]This was way before your time.
[10:19]But there was this upstart league
[10:21]played in the spring called the USFL.
[10:24]And he bought a team and signed this guy, Doug Fluthy,
[10:27]to the biggest salary they had.
[10:29]And he sued the other owners
[10:31]because they wouldn't help him pay Fluthy's salary.
[10:34]And the other owners are like, you're
[10:36]trying to beat us with this guy.
[10:38]Why would we pay the salary?
[10:40]And Trump says, because this is going to make the league.
[10:43]I mean, he was always doing crazy shit.
[10:46]And that's pretty much how he's been the president, or he was.
[10:49]Oh, my gosh.
[10:49]What a unique vantage point there.
[10:53]I am amazed.
[10:54]So you find a way to tell all these very personal stories,
[10:58]golf is just a vehicle for the stories of people's lives.
[11:02]And what's so unique about them, and inspirational,
[11:05]and everything, is that were you trained to do this
[11:08]through sports writing?
[11:09]Like, how does this happen?
[11:10]And how do other people get better at it?
[11:13]Well, you know, Ben Scully just died, the great Dodger
[11:16]announcer.
[11:16]And so my first job was at the LA Times.
[11:19]And I got to know Vin when I would mostly
[11:21]listen to Vin on the air.
[11:24]And it really didn't matter what the score of the game was.
[11:28]He was telling people's life stories.
[11:31]Like, this guy adopted, and his father was a fireman,
[11:35]and then the fireman died, and there
[11:37]would always be some gripping story.
[11:38]In LA, I'll see people in their driveway
[11:41]with a car still running, staring at their dashboard.
[11:45]And I know what's happening.
[11:46]Vin is telling a story.
[11:48]And they can't bear to get out of the car.
[11:50]And so it's been Scully taught me that sports really
[11:53]isn't about the score.
[11:55]It isn't about who won or lost.
[11:57]It's about, it's about their lives.
[11:59]And so as I learned to write, I learned
[12:02]that the best sports stories are not about sports at all.
[12:05]They're just hung on a very thin wire of sports,
[12:08]but it's about people's lives.
[12:10]And so that really made all the difference for me.
[12:14]Remember, I remember writing about this dad
[12:17]that had this kid who was about 35 years old,
[12:20]and he had severe just to fibrosis, I think.
[12:23]And he couldn't speak.
[12:25]And he was all kind of bunched up,
[12:26]but somebody had invented a way for him to talk
[12:29]by puffing into a thing.
[12:32]And the first thing he said is I want to go for a run.
[12:35]So the dad's like, he's a smoker, he's 50 pounds overweight.
[12:38]So he put some in the wheelchair and tries to run.
[12:41]But he couldn't go more than half a mile exhausted.
[12:45]So he started getting shape, got a better wheelchair,
[12:47]pretty soon he's doing a mile than two miles.
[12:50]Then the kid goes, I want to go for a swim.
[12:55]So he thought this lifeboat and got a kayak.
[12:58]And pretty soon, bicycle rides,
[13:00]he put him on the front with his plastic.
[13:03]The two of them did over 200 marathons, 100 triatholons,
[13:09]finished halfway up in the Hawaiian Iron Man.
[13:13]Two people, he's dragging a guy as he swims,
[13:17]then against guys, that nobody did drag.
[13:20]Anyways, so this story I wrote for Sports Illustrated
[13:23]became a movie and the name's a Rick and Dick Hoyt
[13:27]out of Boston.
[13:27]You'll see him on airports and they missed Dick Hoyt died.
[13:32]But that wasn't a story about sports, right?
[13:34]That was about the dad and the son being able to bond
[13:40]through sports, but the dad wanting to be a good dad
[13:43]for this son who could finally tell him what he wanted.
[13:46]And so that's kind of what the book is about.
[13:48]A lot of stories like that that have nothing really
[13:52]to do with sports, like the guy,
[13:54]and you read the one about the guy in the Hanoi Hilton,
[13:57]the prison, and he only had six feet in a solitary cell.
[14:01]And yet every day he played golf in his mind,
[14:04]he had a stick and he played golf in his mind,
[14:07]kissed his wife, kiddin' around with his buddies,
[14:10]waved to people on the golf course, had a beer,
[14:13]and took him four and a half hours.
[14:16]He said, that kept him alive.
[14:18]He said, be so many guys he knew,
[14:21]you could hear in the prison die
[14:23]because they never left the cell.
[14:25]But golf got him out of the cell.
[14:27]And so when people criticize golf,
[14:29]I'm like, it's not really about what we should.
[14:32]It's about getting out there with your friends.
[14:34]Maybe that's how it's for you too.
[14:36]Getting out there with your friends,
[14:38]you're in nature, sunshine, laughing, cold beer.
[14:42]It really is a way to forget your problems.
[14:45]And I think that's kind of why people are so addicted
[14:48]to the game.
[14:49]Interesting.
[14:50]I personally find it too anxiety-provoking
[14:54]because I play a lot of tennis.
[14:56]And there, you can change everything with the next stroke.
[14:59]You can win the next game.
[15:01]You can always do it over.
[15:02]You can do the next stroke,
[15:03]but other than the last stroke.
[15:04]And so when the point, but in golf, it's like forget it.
[15:07]Like, I'm already, you know,
[15:08]by the second hole, I've ruined the whole day.
[15:11]Yeah.
[15:12]Okay, couple things that I can help you with.
[15:15]You gotta play the double max rule.
[15:17]So I play with Charles Parkley a lot.
[15:20]And we have a rule.
[15:21]Once you get to double bogey,
[15:23]that's as much as you can take.
[15:25]It's hard for, and you make a six,
[15:27]and you're not even on the green,
[15:29]you take your six, and we go to the next tee box,
[15:32]and it doesn't ruin your day.
[15:34]Another thing is to lower your expectations.
[15:38]Don't keep track of your whole score.
[15:40]Just play for a great shot.
[15:42]We call these hop shots, H-O-B, head on pillow at night.
[15:46]I don't have a pillow.
[15:47]And you're like, oh, I'm never that great shot.
[15:49]I hit on three, because in golf, I think unlike tennis,
[15:53]you can hit one shot as perfectly as Tiger Woods, right?
[15:58]It's just perfect.
[15:59]It goes up, throw a trickle, go in the hole.
[16:02]Nobody can do that better.
[16:03]But I can never hit a shot like I've in London.
[16:06]I can never throw a football 70 yards like Tom Brady.
[16:09]But I think that also is the great thing
[16:11]about golf, those hop shots.
[16:13]It's always tell people, don't keep score.
[16:16]Play the double bogey max, have a beer, and have fun.
[16:19]Well, it's too bad you didn't get me started on golf.
[16:22]All right.
[16:24]My mom even gave me like one of these bracelets
[16:26]because I can't even remember how many shots
[16:29]it was taking me.
[16:30]I was like on 12, I mean, I got better.
[16:32]But at the beginning, I was like, how do I even know?
[16:35]What happened to you?
[16:35]I don't know.
[16:36]Too much pressure.
[16:37]Are you a masochist?
[16:38]Nobody keeps track that much.
[16:40]Do you play match play?
[16:41]I just match play.
[16:42]Whoever wins the hole gets won.
[16:44]That's fun too.
[16:45]That's much easier.
[16:46]So if I make a 10 and you make a three,
[16:49]you're ahead of me by one.
[16:50]OK.
[16:51]That way we don't keep score that way we keep match.
[16:54]No, my mom kept saying like every round
[16:56]I had to put in the computer and I had to get my handicap.
[16:59]And I'm like, my handicap's like 54 or something.
[17:02]I mean, I didn't like it's like, if moms don't have time
[17:07]to read books, how come she had so much time to play golf?
[17:09]She's obsessed.
[17:11]She plays all the time.
[17:12]She's so good.
[17:13]Look, she would like this book.
[17:15]Yes, I know.
[17:15]I should have had you sign it or something.
[17:17]Well, next time.
[17:18]Yeah, next time.
[17:19]Yes, they were, they were going to inhale
[17:21]your entire over of books.
[17:24]My stepfather too, but he's not quite as crazy as my mom.
[17:26]I also, I've gotten to do much album a little.
[17:29]Did you, you must have worked with him in the sports game?
[17:31]Well, nice.
[17:32]Yeah, he blurbed my book and he called it a Valentine
[17:36]to books or whatever.
[17:37]And now you're calling this a Valentine to golf.
[17:39]And I'm like, OK, way back, when you guys were being trained,
[17:42]everything is a Valentine.
[17:43]That is like, what, that's the lingo.
[17:45]We don't do Valentine's anymore.
[17:49]They do them on Twitter, nothing.
[17:50]And Jason Gay, I love how he writes about sports.
[17:52]Do you read him in the Wall Street Journal?
[17:54]Sure.
[17:55]He's so funny.
[17:56]What were you saying about Mitch?
[17:57]Oh, just the way it's the same thing with story and sports
[18:01]and the relatability of all the stories
[18:04]and finding the common things.
[18:06]Like I feel so many parallels and you're writing.
[18:08]Yeah, Mitch is also really fantastic about telling someone's
[18:13]deep emotional story and how they got there.
[18:16]And of course, he's made a lot of money at it.
[18:20]But he knows a good story.
[18:22]That's why I think it's my is calm, so compelling.
[18:24]He tells a good story.
[18:26]He's always kind.
[18:27]He sends me notes and stuff.
[18:28]He can really feel people's pain, you know?
[18:31]I'd be like, piano, and he can really play piano.
[18:34]You ever heard him play?
[18:35]No, that's amazing.
[18:37]He's really good.
[18:38]So what book is coming next for you?
[18:40]Geez.
[18:41]I just finished this one.
[18:44]I'm supposed to be retired now.
[18:47]In my retirement now, I've done two books
[18:49]and now I'm writing for the Washington Post somehow.
[18:51]I don't know how this happened.
[18:53]But I have this idea.
[18:54]I can't tell you because it might fall.
[18:56]You tell me, even if it doesn't work.
[18:59]I can't because it's kind of my deal.
[19:01]It's so good.
[19:02]Someone's going to hear it and steal it.
[19:04]But I will tell you when it comes out, how's that?
[19:07]OK.
[19:09]Thanks.
[19:10]That's what's your next book.
[19:12]My next book is a novel.
[19:14]It's coming out in 2024.
[19:16]It's called Blank, and it's about a mom of two
[19:19]who's a successful writer, author, in LA.
[19:22]And she's on deadline and cannot
[19:25]seem to write her next book.
[19:26]And so she comes up with this very innovative solution
[19:29]to her problems.
[19:31]You know, since I've been writing,
[19:32]I think I've published over two and a half million words
[19:35]over the years, the ESPN and SI and this and books
[19:39]and articles.
[19:40]But after a while in this business, maybe you
[19:43]feel this way, there's no six things writers block.
[19:46]I can't imagine getting writers block.
[19:49]I don't know what it is.
[19:50]I know sometimes you get stuck.
[19:52]And then you just go to a bar, you go to a restaurant,
[19:56]or I write standing up, or I go over by the, by the,
[20:00]fireplace, or I start in the middle, or I start at the end, or write one sentence, or I go read something like, I love Damon Runyon, I'll go read one chapter of Damon Runyon, you can always get out of writer's block, and I always notice that with writers who aren't really experienced yet.
[20:18]Like, I just have terrible writers like I've just been looking at the screen for two weeks. I'm like, don't look at the screen, get out of yellow legal power, do anything, right on your phone.
[20:28]You know what I mean, Judd Apetow wrote, I think he wrote three movies just on his phone. So there's never an excuse, I don't think for writing, but that's a good idea, if you got an interesting way to beat it.
[20:40]Those are fantastic tips for writers' block, by the way, not that it exists, but for those who believe it exists, amazing.
[20:46]Any other advice for aspiring authors, what if there's somebody out there who wants to write, wants to tell the kind of stories you're telling, they don't know where to start?
[20:54]write a sentence, write two sentences, write 10 sentences, you know, people are always coming to me, we write my story, it's really good, it's about my dad, he was in World War two, and he was captured by that.
[21:04]Like, no, you should write it, you know it, you love, you know, the number one rule in writing, well, I have two rules, never write a sentence, you've already read,
[21:14]never write a sentence, you've already read or written, read, never write a sentence that you've already read, it's got to be all new, and that will really make your sentences pop.
[21:24]Because you can always write a cliche, and then the readers board, give me something, the pop's like, as David Ryan said, make the sentence, jump off the page and squirt grapefruit juice in the reader's eye, you know, just pink elephants, you know, dancing on top of the Empire State, whatever it is,
[21:42]make it new, and make, write word pictures, the other thing is, as you know, write what you know, write what you really want to write, write what just burns inside you, and I always tell the guy, you write that story, and he goes, well, how do I get it published?
[21:57]We'll write it first, write it first, and you can spend 500 bucks and have 100 of them made and give out to your friends and your family, but at least then it will exist.
[22:07]It's hard to get them published, but the hardest thing is to get over that hub of, I can't write a book, you can write a book, it might suck, but you'll get it out, and then you can start improving, all writing, all good writing is rewriting.
[22:22]I write, and then I rewrite 25, 30, 50 times, I think any good writer will tell you, things to get it down and then start fixing it.
[22:31]It's like making a sand castle, you can't do that without any sand.
[22:35]Okay, terrible analogy, forget I even said that.
[22:38]Anyway, okay, Rick, thank you so much, thanks for coming on.
[22:42]You're welcome, I hope we can get a book to your mother, because you know, she's a freak.
[22:46]She's a freak, but she's very lovable.
[22:49]Yeah, but does she also have time to read books too?
[22:53]Yes.
[22:54]No piano, but yes, books, book, bridge, also bridge.
[23:00]Wow, yeah.
[23:01]Does she never sleep?
[23:02]Holy Jesus.
[23:03]A little bit.
[23:04]A little bit.
[23:05]You don't really need sleep in my family.
[23:07]Thank you.
[23:08]Thanks a lot, have a great day.
[23:10]Bye-bye.
[23:11]Bye.
[23:12]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[23:16]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at ZB Owens, and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[23:21]Also sign up for my newsletter, at ZB Owens.com, and sign up for my virtual book club, and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[23:28]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan Beck, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[23:32]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.