Jane Green, RAINBOW GIRL

[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now.

[0:07]Thank you so much. Called moms don't have time to read books.

[0:10]It is a daily podcast, 365 days a year, and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career,

[0:18]their book, their life, and more in 30 minutes or less because who has time?

[0:22]I am now an author myself, although I wasn't when I started this podcast, and you can get my new memoir,

[0:28]bookends, a memoir of love, loss, and literature, wherever books are sold starting July 1st, and my children's book prints is charming.

[0:36]You can learn more about me at Zivi Owens.com, but really you're here to learn more about the authors and that is what we're going to do.

[0:43]Also, be sure to check out all the other podcasts in the Z cast podcast network.

[0:48]You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com and definitely check out those shows as well.

[0:58]Hi, podcast listeners. I just wanted to wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving, a happy Thanksgiving week.

[1:05]I hope you're catching up on all the back episodes that you may have missed now that you're driving all over or flying or doing whatever.

[1:12]And I just wanted to say how truly, truly, truly thankful I am for all of you, for all of you tuning in regularly, listening to these episodes.

[1:22]I'm thankful for all the authors who have come on as guests and who continue to listen.

[1:27]And just everybody who has made this podcast really take off and enabled me to do things like starting publishing company and open a bookstore and do all the things I'm doing.

[1:37]I don't know. I, without all of you listening and supporting the show, none of this would be possible.

[1:43]So from the bottom of my heart, thank you. Thank you. Have a great Thanksgiving.

[1:48]Today, we have a bonus episode from author Jane Green.

[1:52]After 21 novels, including 18 New York Times best sellers, Jane Green is now the head of Emerald Audio, a new podcast network, producing original audio dramas for busy women, giving them the time to listen to great stories from some of the best love writers in the world while navigating their full lives.

[2:11]Prior to Emerald, Jane was published in over 25 languages and has over 10 million books in print worldwide.

[2:18]A resident of Westport, Connecticut, she lives there with her husband and a small menagerie of animals. Her children swear they have flown the nest, but she's not sure she believes them.

[2:28]I hope you enjoy our bonus episode and Jane, this episode will also air on Jane's podcast Rainbow Girl, her brand new audio drama.

[2:38]Hi, hi, hi.

[2:39]Hi, how are you?

[2:40]I'm completely delighted that that Zibioans is joining us today to have a little chat about Rainbow Girl and some of the inspiration behind it.

[2:49]So for those of you who have listened, you may want to know some of the backstory and no one better than Zibby to talk to about this. Zibby, welcome.

[2:58]I am so honored that you selected me to talk to you about this. Thanks, Jane.

[3:03]Oh, okay, why how did we get here?

[3:07]What made you decide to start not only a podcast network, but to take Rainbow Girl and make it into your very first show?

[3:14]Well, the podcast network came first and that was really, I was approached by a man that I've known for a very long time who was a very big deal in the radio world and then in the podcast world.

[3:26]And he founded and built cadence 13 and before selling it a couple of years ago.

[3:33]And he came to me two years ago and said that he had this idea for fiction on podcast and would I be interested in joining him as a partner and building a network, creating fiction for women.

[3:48]I started to think about this. I realized that one of the things I absolutely loved as a child were radio plays and I grew up listening to them all the time.

[3:58]And in the car, I remember as a teenager even not wanting to get out of the car because I was so immersed in these plays.

[4:05]And I thought, well, what if I did a modern version where I serialized them.

[4:10]And of course I realized that I have this phenomenal network of friends who are authors and we've all got stories and draws that we never got round or didn't have time for and I thought well.

[4:22]If I start with one and then I start going to to people I know and asking them for an idea for an outline.

[4:30]I can attach a script writer and get this developed into a six to eight part series that is acted by a cast of actors fully soundscape completely immersive.

[4:42]And I thought, well, let's let's see how this goes by all right, the first one. And I had already dived into writing sister stardust which was set in the late 60s and biographical fiction and I did so much research into the rolling stones,

[4:57]sources to stardust because they were, they were really wrapped up in Marrakesh in the 60s and with the getties who I was writing about that one of the rabbit holes I went down was a Keith Richards rabbit hole and Keith Richards had this crazy relationship with this very beautiful, very brilliant,

[5:17]very chaotic woman who was a model actress in the 60s and 70s called Anita Pallenberg and there's just one crazy story after another and I found one particular story of when they bought an old farm called Frog Hollow in South Salem, New York in the late 70s that was so unbelievable that I just thought I need to borrow this story and expand and that became Rainbow Girl.

[5:47]Oh, that's amazing. So how did you go about writing the script? You hired a script writer, you wrote it yourself.

[5:53]Well, I started writing it myself and I wrote the first three episodes myself and I kept giving it to my team and they kept sending back notes and I do know the truth is script writing is a very, very different skill set.

[6:08]Now that I spent all my time reading scripts or listening to to audio dramas, I actually now feel that I am in fact writing writing one by myself, but at that time I said to the team, listen, they were all being so nice and so I said, look, if I had commissioned this from someone and this is what they delivered, I wouldn't accept it.

[6:31]Like I recognize my deficiencies, this is, and I think most novelists can write a script but there's a very big difference between a script and a great script and I needed this to be great and I ended up bringing in this really talented young writer Tommy Lombardi and he just punched it up and made it very quick and brought excitement and drama and really did a wonderful job of taking my words and making them much better.

[7:01]Is there a different skill set in evaluating or writing for audio versus screen.

[7:09]Yeah, that's a great question because that's something I, I think I wouldn't have thought of at first and in fact, even as I was writing Rainbow Girl, I think I was writing it more for screen not really understanding the differences for audio.

[7:24]Because you're relying solely on your imagination, you want to keep the cast smaller because you don't want to confuse the listener and you also want to place all of the situations and the scenes in a place that already has audio.

[7:39]And if at one of the things I was reading and I think this is such a brilliant exercise they said as a practice, set a scene, tell a story set a scene with no dialogue just using sound effects to tell the story.

[7:52]And things like kettles whistling can be very ominous, you can have all sorts of echo is shady conversations in a stairwell like if you think about where you're setting those scenes, it can really add to the story or detract in fact.

[8:09]So has this made you listen now in a totally different way to other. Yes, yes, I listen in a totally different way.

[8:18]And I also am very clear now on what on the difference between a great script and a script, whereas I think in the beginning I didn't know quite so quite I didn't know in the same way.

[8:30]Like I know this with novels I've been writing novels for 27 years it's in my DNA I can take somebody else's novel and tell you exactly what needs to be done and what's wrong with it because it's just in my DNA.

[8:43]And I feel like I'm nowhere near that with scripts but I'm definitely getting much more comfortable and beginning to understand what a great script is.

[8:55]So for Rainbow Girl, do you, did you personally cast all the actors.

[9:01]So I have a producer who is Garrett Scott who is absolutely just joyous to work with.

[9:09]She did the shortlist and found all the actors and I then came in and picked from the shortlist that I was given, but it's so hard.

[9:19]You know, you're hearing these tapes and it's just, it's really hard to know how people will be.

[9:29]I will say actually we did a second, we've done a second show that comes out in December with Jenna Blum, The Key of Love, and that's session 1943 in Boston and it's a wonderful World War II historical romance.

[9:43]But the actor who plays the main character, the man Francis Scott Key, he plays a composer.

[9:49]And what's so funny is that hearing his voice I knew instantly he was who I wanted.

[9:55]He has this wonderful sort of attrition like all.

[10:00]old world voice, you know, this was how my husband's

[10:03]grandparents spoke.

[10:04]They would, I'm mad for them.

[10:06]Oh, I love your shoes.

[10:07]I'm mad for them.

[10:10]And he had one of these voices.

[10:11]And then I actually ended up going into the studio

[10:14]during the day that he was recording.

[10:16]And he's like this young hip actor who's got tattoos

[10:21]and that speaks nothing like that.

[10:24]And that's when you realize, my god, these people

[10:27]are so talented.

[10:29]Wow.

[10:30]Chris, then you're like, where is the old patrician guy

[10:32]and why is he not just trying to be himself?

[10:34]Oh, I'm not sure that they are not

[10:37]sure that there are too many of them are that old Boston

[10:40]slash New York accent, which is very English.

[10:43]It's almost more English than it is American.

[10:45]I think that's really gone.

[10:47]You don't hear that anymore.

[10:50]Wait, so, Jane, you could have just decided

[10:53]to do a podcast like this yourself

[10:55]and be invested in one.

[10:57]But instead, you are partnering on the entire business.

[11:01]Tell me about that decision.

[11:02]This is a big departure from novel writing.

[11:04]Well, it is, and it is.

[11:06]And I will say that before I switched to an agent in America,

[11:09]which was 10 years ago, I ran my old business.

[11:12]And UK agenting is very different to American agenting.

[11:16]So in the UK, my agent was, I mean,

[11:19]he was my mentor, my guide, my teacher, my friend.

[11:25]And we made every decision together.

[11:27]Nothing was discussed that I didn't know about,

[11:29]or I wasn't in on the call.

[11:31]If he had a call, I wasn't on it.

[11:33]He'd foamy up and say, OK, this is the offer.

[11:36]What do you think can we discuss it?

[11:37]And I'd say, I think we should do this.

[11:40]And he might say, that's a great idea.

[11:43]He might say, that's terrible idea.

[11:44]But either way, we collaborated.

[11:46]I had a partner.

[11:47]When I switched to an American agent 10 years ago,

[11:50]I wish I'd known this at the time.

[11:52]It was the single worst decision I made in my career.

[11:57]Because what happens, what I found,

[12:00]and I'm not suggesting this is true of everybody,

[12:03]but what I found was that I was immediately

[12:05]and finalized and kept out of my career.

[12:08]They didn't want me to be involved in my career.

[12:10]They didn't want to have a partner.

[12:12]They wanted to, there was no transparency.

[12:16]And so I stopped being in charge of my career.

[12:19]And I done it really well.

[12:20]I love the business side of things.

[12:22]I actually have, I think, something of an aptitude for business,

[12:26]although I'm also understanding how much I don't know

[12:29]and how much I have to learn.

[12:30]But the last 10 years, I watched my career change

[12:35]without having any control over it whatsoever, which

[12:38]I hadn't been used to.

[12:39]And as publishing changed, and I felt

[12:42]that I really wasn't supported, I think I just,

[12:46]I was going through the motions, actually.

[12:48]I mean, I still, I'm a storyteller.

[12:50]I'm always going to be a storyteller.

[12:53]I'm a writer.

[12:54]But it just felt that there was, I was working so hard

[12:59]doing everything myself with very little support.

[13:02]And I was just ready for a new challenge.

[13:04]And also feeling very strongly that at the age of 54,

[13:08]actually, I'm nowhere near ready to start, you know,

[13:12]hanging out my work shoes.

[13:13]I'm just getting started.

[13:14]And by the way, Martha Stewart didn't have success

[13:18]with entertaining.

[13:19]She only became famous in her 50s

[13:21]with through publishing her book entertaining.

[13:24]So I'm keep thinking, Martha did it.

[13:26]I'm going to reinvent myself too.

[13:28]And also, I love collaboration.

[13:31]I think I've been terribly lonely writing books

[13:34]and working by myself.

[13:36]I adore working with other people.

[13:38]I was a little nervous because I can be

[13:41]certainly with people who have worked for me in the past.

[13:44]I can be horrible to work.

[13:45]I'm very not, I never lose my temper.

[13:47]I'm not, I'm not a shouter, but a micromanager.

[13:51]And I've had to learn how to let go of that

[13:54]and how to manage people because I also,

[13:58]I'm loving working with really talented teams of people

[14:02]and very, very much want everybody

[14:06]that I work with to feel empowered and, you know,

[14:10]to celebrate them.

[14:12]So I'm having to sort of take my ego out of the equation

[14:15]and understand that holding people to my standards

[14:20]is that's about ego.

[14:23]That's not, and it's about me.

[14:25]And it puts myself in the middle.

[14:27]And actually, this has nothing to do with me.

[14:29]This is about creating the best product we can create

[14:33]and working with people who like working together.

[14:36]I mean, ultimately at the end of the day,

[14:39]people work with people they like.

[14:41]And I have great equity in the book business,

[14:44]which is really helping mess.

[14:46]And now I want to continue that equity in the podcast world.

[14:50]I think management, even though,

[14:52]I mean, I did happen to go to business school,

[14:53]but I feel like management is not something

[14:56]that we all necessarily learn enough.

[14:58]Because I feel like I have the same thing.

[15:00]I want to be in control of every little thing.

[15:02]It's hard to let go if you have a clear vision too.

[15:05]And it's hard.

[15:06]It should be like, okay, you've turned 30.

[15:09]Now it's time for your tune up.

[15:11]Now you're 40.

[15:13]There's another class you should take,

[15:15]managing all that aspects as a challenge.

[15:17]But it's so important.

[15:19]It is, you know, it's all relationships,

[15:22]whether it's management, whether it's being a wife,

[15:24]whether it's being a mother.

[15:25]It's all relationships, it's all communication.

[15:28]I mean, I feel so strongly that we should have lessons

[15:32]in school about how to have relationships with people,

[15:35]how to have, how to be in a friendship,

[15:37]how to communicate, how to say what you mean,

[15:41]what you say, not say it mean.

[15:43]You know, just how to be in the world.

[15:45]Because we don't, there's no blueprint.

[15:47]And most of us are messing up every step of the way.

[15:50]And if we're lucky, if we're lucky,

[15:53]we gain enough wisdom to not only recognize that,

[15:57]but to have enough humility to listen honestly

[16:01]to people that we trust around us.

[16:03]And I think that is crucial.

[16:05]And I just, I feel enormously lucky

[16:07]because I've landed in the right place

[16:10]with a team of people who are,

[16:13]we're all teaching one another.

[16:15]And it's just wonderful to be in that situation

[16:19]at this stage.

[16:20]And also building something new in the podcast world,

[16:24]which is the Wild West.

[16:25]And this doesn't exist.

[16:26]This kind of, there's a little bit of scripture drama,

[16:30]but it tends to be either for millennials

[16:33]or it's for, it's very genre.

[16:35]It's sci-fi fantasy, which is great.

[16:38]And I definitely want to be doing that in the future.

[16:41]But there's very little just great stories for women.

[16:45]And this is all female led, female driven.

[16:49]And I'm just looking to create great immersive stories

[16:53]for women because I can't listen to audiobooks,

[16:57]but I don't really have time to read anymore.

[16:59]And I still want story.

[17:01]And this where it's acted and sound effects.

[17:05]And this, to me, is much more immersive

[17:08]than an audiobook on an audiobook.

[17:10]If I don't like the narrator's voice,

[17:12]I'm bugger to that's it.

[17:15]And there's too much exposition and fiction for me

[17:17]to listen to why just get bored,

[17:19]but plays and audio dramas, those I can listen to.

[17:25]So how are you working with authors?

[17:27]Are you going to authors, you know,

[17:29]and saying, would you like to write one of these?

[17:31]Or are you saying, do you have an idea for a story

[17:33]and then we'll get a writer for you?

[17:35]It's actually both.

[17:37]I mean, the truth is it is such a different skill set

[17:39]that if authors want to write their own scripts,

[17:42]I'm happy for them to do it,

[17:44]knowing that we may well have to bring in a script doctor

[17:49]to punch it up at the end.

[17:51]But so there's that.

[17:52]And there's also the model of going to authors

[17:56]and saying, hey, you know, we've all got those stories

[17:59]and drawers or lurking in files on our desktop

[18:04]at the stories that we woke up one night

[18:07]and had a brilliant idea and we wrote it down.

[18:08]And then for whatever reason,

[18:10]we didn't have time, life got in the way.

[18:11]We didn't get round to it.

[18:13]We can attach writers who can work with you

[18:17]or, you know, however, whatever works for the author.

[18:20]So we've got various different models,

[18:22]but we've got some really big names coming to you

[18:25]with some really great shows next year.

[18:28]Can you, can you share any of them?

[18:30]Are they all tubsy?

[18:30]I can't yet, but we have a fantastic psychological thriller

[18:35]from somebody that you will all know.

[18:37]And I'm really, that is something I'm very excited about.

[18:41]We have a wonderful romance,

[18:43]which is features three of the top romance authors

[18:47]in the country.

[18:48]And we're doing an original scripted drama centered

[18:51]around a book club.

[18:52]So we've got all kinds of projects going on.

[18:55]So exciting.

[18:56]So what is the listening length goal

[18:59]for each of your projects?

[19:01]Is there one?

[19:02]Yeah, it's about half an hour.

[19:04]It's, you know, each episode is about half an hour.

[19:07]So we're looking at, we're developing shows

[19:09]that are anywhere from six to 10 episodes.

[19:13]We're also doing some scripted shorts.

[19:15]So I have some authors who are fronting shows

[19:18]where they are writing a short scripted short story,

[19:22]but they are also recruiting other friends

[19:24]within that genre to write a script

[19:26]so every week there'll be a different short play

[19:29]basically around a theme psychological thrillers,

[19:32]relationships.

[19:33]But it will, we, we, right now,

[19:36]it's seed the feedback we're getting

[19:38]as the sweet spot is where we are, which is half an hour.

[19:41]But we're learning all the time

[19:43]and so open to feedback.

[19:44]So who knows, we may change.

[19:48]Well, I love how you're bringing in such a wide cast

[19:51]of characters and all these stories to everybody else.

[19:54]It's really amazing.

[19:56]So anything else with

[19:59]race.

[20:00]bow girl that people who have just listened might not know, where there are any secrets,

[20:05]where there are any missteps that you had to correct, any drama internally, anything they've

[20:11]cut out, any behind the scenes, any behind the scenes intel you can share.

[20:16]Yeah, there's no, there's no, happily, there's no internal drama. We did have an original soundtrack,

[20:22]an original song created for the show, which I don't know how this person managed to do it,

[20:27]but they've managed to create something that sounds just like the early Rolling Stones meets,

[20:32]meets Led Zeppelin. And I actually, my son is a musician. I did call my son at one point and say

[20:38]darling, do you think you could just compose something quickly that sounds a bit like the Rolling Stones

[20:43]wild horses and he's like, mom, if I could do that, I would have left university long ago,

[20:50]I'm asking him to create this extraordinary track in a minute, but it's, you know, it's session,

[20:57]it's session, the late 70s. So it's in the world. It's outside of New York. It's set in

[21:03]Sleepy Hollow, but it's all studio 54. I went down a big studio 54 rabbit hole as well,

[21:09]and the seriously thinking at one time of writing a book about studio 54, but it's

[21:14]it's sex, drugs and rock and roll. I changed, you know, the real story behind it, different people

[21:20]died. It was a not dissimilar story, but different people died and it was at Keith Richards's

[21:26]house in South Salem, but I did use the story as inspiration and I'm still kind of fascinated by

[21:35]not rock and roll today, but rock and roll and rock and roll was edgy and glamorous and crazy

[21:40]and the women were beautiful and the groupies and and just it was just this kind of extraordinary

[21:48]world that I find absolutely fascinating. So who knows, there may be more stories from me on this

[21:55]theme in the future. One of these days, you're just going to pick up and like run off with a rag band

[21:59]that's what's going to happen. Yeah, that's also entirely possible. Yes, unfortunately, I don't know,

[22:05]the thing is I don't have my voice is okay. It's not great. It's I make up what I lack in talent,

[22:11]I make up for it with enthusiasm. I think that my biggest issue is I don't have the stamina,

[22:16]like I do, I do one great performance. Well, I don't know, maybe you're suggesting I'd run off

[22:22]as a groupie, which is far more likely, although I'd be the worst groupie in the world because I've

[22:26]never want to have sex. I just want to get them better in my nighty and with a book in the cat.

[22:31]I'd be a terrible groupie. I'm sorry, no, no sex. So funny, you do. However, I don't,

[22:39]I can't speak to your singing voice, but your podcast voice is amazing. And I love hearing your

[22:44]voice in the script to show as an actress or actor. Is it? Yeah. Are you planning on repeat

[22:49]performances of yourself as narrator for possibly, but not not as a standard. I wrote myself into

[22:57]this script as a, as a music journalist, narrator, writing this sort of tell-all book about the

[23:04]wide-eyed boys, the band that, that feature in both sister status and rainbow girl. But I will,

[23:10]because Emerald Audio is my network, you know, I adore this American life. And actually my secret

[23:16]crush for years has been Ira Glass. And I just, I think I fell in love with his voice. And

[23:22]when he does the intro and the outro on this American life, it just makes me happy. I feel

[23:27]warm. And so I just, I think that this is, this is my goal. So I won't necessarily play the narration,

[23:34]but I will be voicing the ads and we have better help as our sponsor for rainbow girl.

[23:41]And I think I will be voicing this sort of intro and outro to every show. Interesting.

[23:48]11. Is there anyone on your wish list for who's going to what kind of story or an actress

[23:55]author? Yes. Yes. I really, really want Lisa Jewel. I really want Lisa Jewel to write something for

[24:02]me. And Lisa and I have been friends for 27 years. I mean, we were, we were baby authors together.

[24:08]We wrote our first books at the same time. We had the same publishing team and we were neighbors.

[24:13]And I know she's listening to rainbow girl, but she's so busy. But I'm like, please, please, please.

[24:21]I do have a few others. I would love Adriana Trigiana to do something for me. But it's really lovely

[24:28]now actually, because I've been approaching people and I'm starting to have people come to me,

[24:33]which is great. And I'm just, I love good stories. And I just want to bring to bring more people.

[24:40]Well, and to allow the busy women to multitask, because that's really what this is doing.

[24:45]you know, it's just just as soap operas started in the 50s for the 1950s housewife who was so

[24:52]busy cooking and cleaning. She couldn't stop to watch her favorite television show. So they

[24:57]created radio dramas and they were sponsored by soap companies. And that's how soap operas became

[25:03]a thing. And I think here we are full circle 70 years later. But with today's woman also so

[25:11]busy for different reasons. She's not necessarily cooking and cleaning, although she might be,

[25:15]but she's juggling kids and jobs and side hustles and friends and everything else and exercise.

[25:23]And who has the time? None of us has the time. And there's nothing better for me than just

[25:30]tuning into a great story while I'm going about my day. I love it. I have time to read books,

[25:36]I don't have time to do anything. And I'm speaking of which. So now is the time to shout out

[25:41]that Zibi is the host of moms don't have time to read books, which I've been lucky enough to

[25:45]to be on a couple of times. Wonderful podcast. You should all be listening. Zibi, thank you so much

[25:51]for joining us and for asking me these questions. Thank you for having me. It's an honor.

[25:57]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books. Don't forget to

[26:01]follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for

[26:06]my newsletter at zibiowans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom

[26:12]every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan. In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.

[26:16]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.