Sutanya Dacres, DINNER FOR ONE: How Cooking in Paris Saved Me
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[0:53]Satanya Dakers is the author of Dinner for One, How Cooking in Paris Saved Me.
[1:03]Satanya is the creator and host of the podcast Dinner for One, which has been featured in the New York Times and BBC Radio Hour, among other outlets.
[1:11]She has held a number of copywriting positions in New York City in Paris.
[1:14]Having grown up in New York City, she currently resides in Cook's Dinner for One in the Mamauchua, wasn't that good?
[1:20]Mamauchua neighborhood of Paris. Dinner for One is her first book.
[1:24]Welcome, Satanya. Thank you so much for coming on Bob's Start Have Time to Read Bex to discuss Dinner for One, How Cooking in Paris Saved Me.
[1:32]Thank you so much for having me on. I'm very, very excited to be here.
[1:35]I'm sorry if you hear a bunch of noise for some reason they decided today that now time to drill a bunch of holes and buildings.
[1:43]Don't you love that? I could barely hear it. My ears are so stuffed today. I can barely hear you. So don't worry.
[1:50]Okay, how did cooking in Paris save you? Tell everyone what this book is about.
[1:55]Okay, so my book did a front looking at our stadium of obla.
[1:58]It is about how I used the King Dinner for One to making these small dinners for One as a way to heal and overcome the challenge of like getting over my divorce.
[2:07]So I moved to Paris. I don't have a French accent. I don't know if that was clear or not, but my thing I don't have a French accent very much in American living in Paris.
[2:15]And I moved here because I was married to a French man that I met at a bar in New York, Phinelli's, and so whole.
[2:22]By the way, my brother lived right above Phinelli's for a while. So I'm, but I read it to her.
[2:28]So yeah, we met at Phinelli's one night so funny the night before he's from back to Paris.
[2:35]And we, you know, kind of kept in touch for a lot, got married.
[2:40]And then I moved to Paris.
[2:42]By the way, that was skimming through a lot of good stuff right now.
[2:45]You say, and you fast-forwarded through some great seeds, but okay, go ahead.
[2:48]And then yeah, we, unfortunately, got divorced, which happens, you know, I'm not the first person to be divorced.
[2:53]I won't be the last.
[2:54]And I went through a period of self-destructive behavior.
[2:57]And I started making these like small dinners for myself and they really helped me.
[3:01]They put me on a path of just kind of understanding the importance of self care and doing something nice for myself and taking care of myself.
[3:09]And giving myself pleasure outside of just like, you know, other French men and joking too much wine.
[3:16]And I was indulging in.
[3:18]Great scenes.
[3:20]And early on in your book, you started by talking about some orzo salad with, I don't know, fed ed tomatoes.
[3:28]And I was like, Oh, this is going to be fun. I'm already under you.
[3:31]That was great.
[3:32]Actually, I didn't even realize till I got to the end that there were recipes back to you.
[3:39]All of a sudden, I was like, oh, it's a little surprise there.
[3:43]Yeah, it is. It's a total surprise. And I am not even close to bold enough to try any of these.
[3:47]But it's nice that they're there.
[3:48]They're quite easy.
[3:49]I know.
[3:50]The hard part is just getting into the kitchen where the ingredients like I can obviously do anything.
[3:57]I can follow a direction.
[3:58]It might not be the most amazing thing. I don't like improvise.
[4:01]But the hardest part is just being like, okay, today I'm going to make citrus fennel salad.
[4:08]I know, but you already have like the fiddle bulb cleaned in shape.
[4:12]That's not like, I'm like, I know, that is too hard.
[4:16]I am not going to understand what you're saying.
[4:20]It's not like, you know, you're not always reducing sauces.
[4:23]I don't know.
[4:24]Not very, very, very good sauce.
[4:26]Well, on the way to getting together with who you called TFM, the French man, which is very funny.
[4:32]You beat him.
[4:33]You have this sort of relationship over text, email, whatever.
[4:37]And he says at some point like, okay, this is great.
[4:40]But, you know, there's this sort of useless.
[4:42]We're never going to see each other.
[4:43]Why are we wasting our time?
[4:45]And so then all of a sudden you're like, well, I was going to go to Europe anyway.
[4:48]And we swing through Paris.
[4:51]You're like, yours is always a good idea.
[4:54]All of a great idea.
[4:55]Yeah.
[4:56]So yeah, we were starting this very strange, what I call like pen pal relationship.
[5:00]We were emailing it for like every day.
[5:02]And I mean, I'm getting these intense, like long emails from him.
[5:05]Like print out and I would read my bed.
[5:07]Just kind of like, oh, like everything in book.
[5:09]And, you know, same with him.
[5:11]I was sharing a lot via email because it was so easy to kind of, I guess, be ourselves because
[5:16]A, you never thought we were going to see each other.
[5:18]And B, we had the screen.
[5:19]You weren't even FaceTiming or anything, right?
[5:21]So we had this screen just kind of protecting us.
[5:24]And yeah, I was getting a master's degree.
[5:26]And I was going to your trip with my roommates.
[5:28]That was my gift to myself.
[5:30]And I was like, yeah, well, I'm going to be near anyway.
[5:33]Like let's just go to Paris.
[5:35]And I came to Paris and it was like, honestly, four days of like this world when
[5:39]just I had no expectations.
[5:41]This is the only time my life I had zero expectations about anything.
[5:44]And it turned out to my first marriage.
[5:47]So my person there just like, glad of Europe to meet a man and then have no expectations.
[5:53]And also when he came to New York shortly after,
[5:56]I had no idea that he was going to come.
[5:59]You know, as I said in the book, he was just kind of like,
[6:01]were you serious?
[6:02]I mean, coming to visit you.
[6:03]And I was like, yeah, sure.
[6:04]And he was like, great.
[6:05]I'll be there tomorrow.
[6:06]And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[6:08]What?
[6:09]You were very, very much not be each other.
[6:12]And that was probably the hardest bit of the book to write because it happened
[6:16]such a long time ago.
[6:17]We met on a screen for 37 now.
[6:19]I was writing the book between the eight years of 35 and 36.
[6:22]Or that's on a 34.
[6:23]I came in with my many.
[6:24]A couple of years ago, I started the book.
[6:26]So I hadn't bought it about that.
[6:28]No one talks about it.
[6:29]No one's about rather than love story when they're getting a divorce.
[6:32]So I had to go back to emails.
[6:34]I've been keeping journals since I was like nine years old.
[6:37]So I had, and I have all of those.
[6:38]I took them, most of them from New York, but all of them from New York that I started prior to moving here.
[6:44]And that was, yeah, that was really hard because you were so in love.
[6:47]And we were so naive.
[6:48]And we had no idea of, like, we had no idea of what was ahead of us.
[6:53]That we had no idea how much our differences were going to affect our relationship and our lack of understanding of each other.
[7:02]And what we entered into and like just cultural differences and everything.
[7:06]You know, love is difficult already.
[7:08]When it's with some, like loving someone is difficult when they're up your same culture.
[7:12]You're seeing race.
[7:13]You're seeing language.
[7:14]You're seeing everything.
[7:15]And he was a complete opposite.
[7:17]So yeah, it's, yeah, that was the hardest part for me to write.
[7:24]Just going back through all that.
[7:25]But you want to be.
[7:27]Say lovey. Yeah, exactly.
[7:29]I can speak back to you in a terrible way.
[7:31]I said, if you want, we could horrify anybody.
[7:33]I feel like I took French for so long, including in college,
[7:38]until I realized that after freshman year, if I dropped French,
[7:42]and I wouldn't have class on Fridays at all.
[7:44]And I was like, Oh my gosh, good morning French.
[7:46]You know, hello.
[7:47]Yeah.
[7:48]Yeah.
[7:49]Yeah.
[7:50]Anyway, now all I can remember to say is as good to put a table clay on,
[7:53]which is like, can I sharpen my pencil, which is completely useless.
[7:56]Central.
[7:57]I'm happy.
[7:58]Yeah.
[7:59]Yeah.
[8:00]Searchable.
[8:01]I'm very sorry for you as it hurts.
[8:02]Anyway, you write about being a black blogger,
[8:09]and then a single black blogger in Paris.
[8:11]And before that, you wrote about how white privilege and what it was like being married
[8:16]to someone who goes through the world without having to think twice about anything
[8:19]and how that was different for you.
[8:20]And you even gave examples of what it was like in your workplace and how that was different
[8:24]and how you could take it for granted at sometimes.
[8:27]And you talked about like puffing up your chest and like,
[8:29]striding through the world without a care in the world, basically.
[8:32]And how that kept coming back.
[8:34]Like talk a little bit more about that.
[8:36]It was really interesting because my ex-husband and I didn't talk about race in any depth.
[8:43]I think because we've never been in such serious relationships with people for the races.
[8:48]Neither of us.
[8:49]And also we both were just kind of like, we're both from like big cosmopolitan cities.
[8:53]Like obviously we're not racist.
[8:55]Like we're young.
[8:57]Like this is 2000 and we met like, well, we were together between 2010 and 16.
[9:02]Like we were in the 21st century.
[9:04]And we were about that.
[9:05]And it was also something that I, I don't know if it was just because when I was younger,
[9:10]I grew up quite sheltered.
[9:12]And I was really in some ways my parents kind of really choose my ways carefully here.
[9:19]They protected me.
[9:21]They protected me from a lot of racism, from a lot of discrimination.
[9:26]Not because I think they wanted to present me with a false narrative of the world,
[9:30]but just they didn't want that clouding already how difficult it needs to be a young woman living in this world.
[9:35]So I also didn't have the vocabulary.
[9:37]I had the feelings.
[9:38]But I didn't have the vocabulary.
[9:40]And because there were so many differences, there were so many changes in my life.
[9:45]Like we've been to Paris getting married, be married to a French Jewish man.
[9:49]I just, it was so hard for me to communicate what it felt like experiencing any kind of privilege based on something that had no control over.
[9:58]So the privilege came from.
[10:00]me being a black American woman.
[10:02]If I was a black woman from, you know,
[10:04]one of the former French colonies,
[10:06]my experience would be completely different,
[10:07]but because Americans,
[10:09]and especially black Americans
[10:10]are helping such high-seaman friends,
[10:12]I, until this day,
[10:14]I have access to certain Australians of French society.
[10:19]I don't feel like I don't belong anywhere.
[10:21]I don't feel like I should be questioned whenever I go anywhere.
[10:26]I feel like the world,
[10:27]like this French world is my oyster.
[10:30]And yeah, for a while,
[10:31]it was kind of like, is this how?
[10:32]Not for a while.
[10:33]Like, it was the first time I had the realization.
[10:35]I was like, is this how?
[10:35]Like, people feel just like walking around the world,
[10:37]like never questioning themselves,
[10:39]like never ever having to question who they are,
[10:43]where they belong or if, you know,
[10:45]whether or not they're, or how their race is going to affect
[10:50]anything that they do in this world.
[10:52]I saw how my ex-husband was living like that.
[10:55]I started to experience that living in Paris
[10:57]when I started paying attention,
[10:59]when I started speaking the language more.
[11:01]And it is something that, in some ways,
[11:03]I still grapple with.
[11:05]It's a privilege that I have that I did nothing to benefit
[11:10]from, you know, and yeah, so I'm not there.
[11:13]It is, no, it is crazy sometimes
[11:15]when you get a glimpse of what it's like to be someone else,
[11:19]or like something that you take for granted
[11:20]about your life and you're almost then you're like,
[11:22]oh my gosh, that's what it would be like
[11:24]if I had X, Y, Z, it must be great,
[11:27]it must be this, it must be that, like, oh my gosh,
[11:29]or worse, or whatever.
[11:31]Anyway, it's those moments though
[11:33]of like extreme empathy essentially to do nothing
[11:36]but health, right, with how we relate to everybody else.
[11:39]When you are most down on your luck
[11:41]in addition to drinking yourself silly,
[11:43]which I loved, I mean, I don't know,
[11:45]it was really fun to read it.
[11:46]Maybe I shouldn't say that.
[11:47]The way you wrote about it was super fun.
[11:48]I feel like I just went out with friends all night.
[11:50]It was fun living and it really wasn't.
[11:52]Yeah, you had a point.
[11:56]But when you were sort of licking the wounds
[11:59]of the recent breakup and all of that,
[12:01]you decided to start a podcast.
[12:03]And like literally I could have written the exact same thing
[12:06]like a start a podcast, I didn't know how to start a podcast.
[12:08]I was like, oh my gosh, this is like my exact experience.
[12:12]And you're like, what did you listen to me?
[12:13]I was like, you know, what would I talk about it?
[12:15]And I was like, yes, keep going.
[12:18]So tell me about your podcasting experience.
[12:20]Yeah, so my podcast, so at the time where I was like,
[12:24]okay, we're gonna stop drinking all the red wine,
[12:27]even though it's very good and it's very cheap.
[12:30]Stop drinking it.
[12:31]We're gonna be like, you know, turn not in bites.
[12:33]It's just really hard for me.
[12:34]Like I love going out and I love being like,
[12:37]I'm to has my hand and my girlfriend,
[12:40]I might do it on the bank and checking out the latest
[12:42]like wine bars and restaurants, whatever.
[12:43]So pretty hard for me to say no.
[12:45]But at that time to keep myself company,
[12:48]I was reading a lot and I was also listening
[12:50]to a lot of podcasts in particular,
[12:51]call your girlfriends with Amina Toussail and Anne Friedman
[12:54]because I felt like they were my friends
[12:56]and sitting there with me.
[12:57]She just announced a new book deal.
[12:59]Amina Toussail?
[13:00]No, Anne Friedman.
[13:01]I thought it was a lovely.
[13:02]Anyway, but yeah, so I was listening to them
[13:06]and I felt like I felt like I was like one of their friends
[13:11]and I was listening in on a very intimate conversation
[13:14]between two girlfriends just point of pocket.
[13:16]Anyway, so they were doing a good job.
[13:18]And so at that time, I was doing that.
[13:21]I was not going out.
[13:22]I was thinking for myself.
[13:25]But I was still, I was looking online
[13:27]for other women's stories,
[13:29]particularly American women in Paris
[13:32]that were divorced and decided to stay.
[13:34]And all I kept seeing was,
[13:36]yes, and my beautiful husband, Gail.
[13:39]We have this beautiful apartment, right off of Saint Boulevard,
[13:42]Saint Germain and both of our kids dressed in Jack Hardy.
[13:45]And we just saw this amazing country house
[13:47]like it's perfect.
[13:48]And it just like, come on,
[13:49]they beat back to a French man,
[13:51]sucks sometimes, it's like anyone's talking about that.
[13:54]And I wanted to say, I thought that,
[13:57]the American in Paris narrative had space
[14:00]for a different perspective and a different story.
[14:03]And I wanted to tell that.
[14:04]So I was like, okay, I'm going to do it.
[14:05]I'm a young American woman living in Paris,
[14:08]recently divorced, I'm black,
[14:10]I'm from New York, all the ingredients are there.
[14:13]What are you going to do?
[14:14]Initially, I thought, vlog, okay.
[14:16]But then I thought, Tatania, you know yourself.
[14:18]You have zero discipline to give with a vlog.
[14:20]And you want, because you want this to be,
[14:23]to be a different take on the American in Paris,
[14:25]the American women in Paris story,
[14:27]why don't you try to also do it in a different medium?
[14:31]And because I was looking at these centers for one,
[14:33]and then I'm cooking dinner for one
[14:34]was the most difficult thing for me to get used to doing
[14:38]after my divorce from TFM.
[14:40]I thought, why not invite people to my kitchen?
[14:43]And why not do a podcast?
[14:45]Because it's so intimate.
[14:46]And I didn't, when I write, I think a lot,
[14:49]which is like a normal writer.
[14:51]Where's when I'm talking?
[14:52]I'm just a bit, I'm a bit freer
[14:54]with how I express myself.
[14:56]And yeah, and I wanted people to feel like they were
[14:58]in my kitchen with me and sharing a very intimate moment
[15:02]with me.
[15:03]And I also thought it'd be interesting for people
[15:04]to experience food using a different sense
[15:07]that they're not used to.
[15:07]So I'm not like sight or smell or taste,
[15:10]but you know, if you hear me, if you listen to the podcast,
[15:12]I'm literally like cooking in my kitchen
[15:14]so I'm talking.
[15:15]So you hear me taste things.
[15:16]You hear me say like, oh, this is not good.
[15:18]You hear me forget things.
[15:19]You hear me drink a glass of wine.
[15:21]You hear when I maybe had one too many glasses of wine
[15:23]and I get a little rowdy.
[15:24]But it's up, yeah.
[15:27]So that's why I said the podcast.
[15:30]On one hand, to share another perspective
[15:33]of the American in Paris story that is so far
[15:36]from the typical one that we've been fed for decades.
[15:39]And also to, yeah, just be like,
[15:42]what would it be like for people to experience food
[15:44]in a different way than what they're used to?
[15:46]How can people find your podcasts?
[15:48]Anywhere on Spotify, on Apple, via my Instagram,
[15:53]just if you go to dinner for one in Paris,
[15:56]like you'll find me and everything, almost anything.
[15:59]But if I read a couple of your hard one pieces
[16:02]of advice in the epilogue, can I read that?
[16:05]Reads go ahead.
[16:05]Here are some of the lessons you can say
[16:07]we'll live with you forever.
[16:09]One, making a nice meal for yourself
[16:11]is always worth the time and effort.
[16:14]Two, there's no such thing as too much butter.
[16:17]I think my husband lives by that.
[16:19]You think, fuck, and like,
[16:21]literally he was making pasta.
[16:22]And I was like, please tell me
[16:23]you did not use two sticks of butter in the pasta.
[16:26]He's like, no, of course not.
[16:27]At least one stick.
[16:28]And I was like, what did I have?
[16:31]Like, they're only four of us.
[16:32]Three, being open to life and experimenting
[16:34]is often more rewarding in the long term.
[16:37]Four, trust yourself in your intuition above all.
[16:39]Knowing when to add, remove or modify elements of your life
[16:42]that are no longer serving you is key.
[16:45]Five, the end is rarely actually ever the end.
[16:48]It's almost always just the beginning.
[16:50]I like to think of it as another door
[16:52]being opened toward a better path.
[16:53]I love that.
[16:54]Six, your journey is years alone.
[16:56]Don't judge yourself too harshly
[16:57]because no one knows what they're doing.
[16:59]Very good.
[17:00]We're all being one-footed front of the other
[17:02]and trying to figure it out day by day.
[17:04]Seven, breakups suck.
[17:06]It chips away at your self-esteem
[17:08]and you have to relearn a lot about yourself
[17:10]and your expectations.
[17:11]But it doesn't have to destroy you.
[17:13]Eight, to love and be loved is a brave and courageous endeavor.
[17:17]If it doesn't work out the way you envisioned,
[17:18]feel some satisfaction in the fact
[17:20]that you gave it your best shot.
[17:22]Nine, because your single or alone
[17:24]doesn't mean that you're automatically lonely.
[17:26]Being able to feel and be satisfied by your own company
[17:30]is actually your strength.
[17:32]And 10, falling in love with yourself
[17:33]is one of the most profound and special love stories
[17:36]you'll ever experience.
[17:38]And I also especially the better one.
[17:40]I love these are so great.
[17:43]Thank you.
[17:43]You should put these somewhere on a poster.
[17:46]I don't know somewhere.
[17:47]Should bury them dead to this book.
[17:49]Now they're great.
[17:50]They're really like rules to live by.
[17:53]It's true because when you're in individual going
[17:57]through one of these things, it often feels like
[17:59]you're the only one who's ever gone through it
[18:00]or like, how will I get past this?
[18:02]Or especially in this post-COVID world
[18:06]I can't even say post-COVID as I'm sitting here with COVID,
[18:09]but anyway, it's fine.
[18:10]But in this post-COVID world,
[18:11]where everyone's had to spend so much time alone,
[18:14]what does it mean to love yourself?
[18:15]And cooking for one became so common and all of that.
[18:19]So it's something you can embrace or not.
[18:22]Yeah, for sure.
[18:23]Even your question is what does it mean to love oneself
[18:27]or practice self-love?
[18:29]I think one of the, and I hope this,
[18:32]I hopefully this came during the book,
[18:33]but for me, it's just all about self-acceptance, right?
[18:36]It's all about, and it's so easy for us today
[18:38]to see what everyone is doing on social media.
[18:41]And yeah, I'm victim to that.
[18:43]Like seeing how other people are,
[18:45]how other Americans living in Paris.
[18:46]And like, oh, my apartment isn't like this.
[18:48]Like, oh my, you know, we're like,
[18:49]I don't have this.
[18:50]So like, I'm still single, for example.
[18:51]In case anyone was curious, yes, I'm single,
[18:53]if you have a handsome brother,
[18:54]that's between ages of 33 or something.
[18:56]Okay, we're not too specific there.
[19:00]Okay, I have a feeling that's only,
[19:03]like scratching the surface of the requirements,
[19:05]but we'll have like, I have a six-page list.
[19:07]But anyway, it's really about like,
[19:10]acceptance of oneself and one's life and one's journey.
[19:13]And I think that's the biggest thing that dinner
[19:14]for one in practice, you know,
[19:17]just doing the podcast and sharing my story
[19:19]and writing the book.
[19:20]Now I started these supper clubs for a single women in Paris
[19:23]where they come to my place and I make a meal
[19:25]and be like, just feast in our lives
[19:27]and be fabulous in women.
[19:28]That's amazing.
[19:29]And yeah, I think that's the kind of red thread
[19:31]and theme that is a part of like my little dinner
[19:34]for one universe I'm trying to create.
[19:35]It's just like as hard as it is.
[19:37]And it's not every day.
[19:38]And sometimes we have really bad days
[19:41]where our self-esteem is in the dumps
[19:42]but that's happens where human beings.
[19:45]It's just all about accepting and being oneself.
[19:49]And it sounds like it's simple, you know, you say it.
[19:52]Like, oh yeah, love myself.
[19:53]Except myself, except myself for who I am.
[19:55]But it's really hard to do on a daily basis.
[19:57]And I think we need to, it's just people.
[20:00]We need to give ourselves a bit more leeway to be flawed and to not be perfect and to not
[20:05]have it all figured out. And it's just like, as I said in the book, take a day by day.
[20:09]So true. Have you connected it all, by the way, with Natasha Sizlow, S-Z-I-L-O? She has a
[20:15]vet called All Science Point to Paris. Wait, where is it? Let me write it down.
[20:18]All science point to Paris. It's different. It's a different type of love story. It's more,
[20:23]but I think you will relate. She ends up descending on Paris to try to find the love of her life
[20:29]based on a certain birth date that she got from it. Oh my gosh, yes. Oh my god. I, me and my,
[20:35]oh my, I remember, I remember, I remember her Instagram actually. My friends and I thought
[20:39]Instagram years ago, we never knew what happened to her. Like, me and me and me and a bunch of
[20:43]girlfriends were like actively following her. Oh, because it was like a psychological sign or
[20:48]something or like, yeah, I remember. I didn't know she would have a book, okay. I'm definitely going
[20:53]to read it. I was, I wonder what happened there. I would have put you two in touch because you two should
[20:58]like do an event about Paris or. Yeah, I would love that. I think she's so fun. And I feel,
[21:03]if nothing else, I know you'll like each other and have some shared experience.
[21:06]I love you. Hopefully, did you ever find her dude or is I not going to tell? I'm not going to
[21:12]tell you to have to read her book. Oh my god, I'm fine. Okay. Yeah. I'm, yeah. Okay. I, yeah. Okay.
[21:18]I have like books that I, you know, that are on the docket and I'm in my mind trying to figure
[21:23]out, okay. What can I push back? So curious. What is on your docket? Oh, so I just discovered
[21:31]Angie Lee. She says, she started for the New Yorker. She's an American woman that lives in Italy.
[21:38]And I just finished one of her books, Lost Hearts in Italy, which is just, it has me. It's still
[21:44]has me in a choke hold. Yeah. It's about this African American woman named Mira. She's like from
[21:50]an upper class African American family from Philadelphia. She matters her high school sweetheart.
[21:54]This guy named Nick. They went to Harvard to get in the Harvard college sweetheart with the
[21:57]Harper together. It's like both like very well-to-do families super educated. Nick gets a job in
[22:03]in Rome. Cool, right? And that's in banking room in the 80s. Like why not? But then Mira finds herself
[22:09]like falling for this seemingly just like disgusting, like older, very rich Italian man that she
[22:18]pretty much seems to hate. But she more or less blows up her entire life for him. And it's just,
[22:24]for me, it's really interesting to read about an African American woman that was doing everything
[22:29]so right. And she just had this instinct that's feeling in her to like rebel even if she didn't
[22:35]know that even if it wasn't a conscious act necessarily, she just kept going in a direction that was
[22:42]so far removed from her picture perfect life. And I just found that interesting. So now I want to
[22:47]read everything that Angeli has ever written. Is it LE or LE ID? LE? Okay. It's amazing.
[22:54]I just have this from an English bookstore here in Paris that I love. New daughters of Africa
[23:01]and international anthology of writing by a woman of African descent. For so all that's like the
[23:06]best cover I've ever seen. All right. Are you sure that cover the wallpaper or whatever that
[23:11]or the pattern? Oh my gosh. Wonderful. Yeah, that caught my eye. So this is on the docket. I'm very
[23:16]excited about this. It's about like I think like 200 stories. So this is really cool. I also recently
[23:22]bought this book, The History of the Jamaican people from Jamaica. What are my projects? What are
[23:28]my writing projects that I've been thinking about is has to do with like Jamaican history like
[23:32]fictional or whatever. So kind of use a message on that. And in the book, the poem that I close
[23:38]the book out with is Derek Walcott, one of their Walcott poems. And I am obsessed with him. So
[23:43]I'm just adding to my their Walcott knowledge bank. So I've got my books and I'm going to
[23:49]read that. So yeah. Wow. What part of Jamaica was your family from? And when did they come to the
[23:53]United States? My family is from mandible. Well, my mom is from mandible, which is in the center of
[23:58]the island. My dad is from Clarendon, which is like East. Yeah, more East close to Kingston.
[24:03]I was born in mandible. I lived there until I was four years old. And then I moved to New York
[24:10]to Bronx. But my parents were so good about sending me back like three, four times a year. Like
[24:15]I was there, summer, Christmas, Easter, spring break, any chance they had for me to be on a plane
[24:23]and out of there, out of there here. I was I used to make up with the good thing, you know,
[24:28]the good thing about that is I feel not only because there's a huge Jamaican population in New
[24:33]York City, right? So it's just it's just a part of just like the amazingness of me or like everyone's
[24:37]from somewhere. So everyone's, you know, everyone's family from somewhere else. It also made
[24:41]it help me feel so connected to the culture, just like going there all the time, being around the
[24:46]food, the language. And also like also being around, being in a country that was majority black,
[24:52]I didn't realize what positive effect that had on me until I became much older and in it,
[24:59]other black people I didn't have that experience, unfortunately. It was really common for me to
[25:04]corrupt seeing black people in positions of power that were middle class or wealthy that were
[25:10]doctors, lawyers, etc. So I never felt necessarily limited. And I think now that I'm
[25:15]speaking thinking a lot where I mentioned earlier about my parents, I'm with sheltering me and
[25:19]she'll be me from like racism and discrimination. I think that's one way in which they did that.
[25:24]Yeah. Just my sending me to a country where I didn't feel other at all ever. And I was there
[25:29]a lot. And yeah, so I'm very connected to my Jamaican culture and very proud of it. And I think
[25:35]that's part of the reason why because they will always kick me out of the house and send,
[25:39]send me there. I'll add another book to your TBR list here. Have you read Zane Asher,
[25:45]where the children take us? That was at the Red Bull Barrow. And I got so taken by
[25:51]new daughters of Africa. And I give myself a book budget. Otherwise, I'll spend all my money on
[25:55]books and mine. So that's all that is on. I did see it and I want to get it. So but I have,
[26:01]I have peaked it. Yeah. All right. Well, keep that on the list somewhere and you're cute on
[26:06]Goodreads or something or whatever. But that was amazing. But she, her mom did such a good job of
[26:12]always presenting her with these amazing Nigerian role models. She was from Nigeria, her family was
[26:18]anyway. And how like nothing was too high. In fact, she even took her mirror down and instead covered
[26:24]her wall with pictures of really successful women and Nigerian people who have just done
[26:32]these amazing things to motivate her all the time. I thought it was so cool. Anyway, I love her.
[26:35]She's amazing. So not to keep recommending other books. We are talking about your book.
[26:39]Dinner for one? No, no, please. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it so much.
[26:44]That's all I want to talk about with everyone is like, what are you reading? Because I
[26:48]I don't know. It gives you such an, yeah, for me at least, it gives you such great insight into
[26:53]just like how people think and like, you know, where they're interest lies and like, you know,
[26:59]kind of getting to their brains a little bit, which I like, like, I can't date a man
[27:02]adding to the list. I can't date a man that doesn't read. So if your brother or cousin or friend
[27:07]in 1933 and 37 does not read, don't send him my way. You know, I always thought that would be
[27:15]the case for me too. But actually, my husband does not really read my second husband for
[27:19]variety reasons. Whatever. So often I end up reading to him out loud.
[27:25]Yeah. And it's so nice. Like the stuff we've run together. I used to do that particularly at
[27:29]the beginning when I had word time. But still sometimes, you know, even articles or whatever. And
[27:34]I'll be like, oh my gosh, we have to read, let me read this too. And let me read this too.
[27:37]That's really lovely. I mean, so don't maybe don't make that up. Okay, I take that back.
[27:42]Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Appreciate it.
[27:45]And literature. That's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. That's great.
[27:50]Right. Maybe I take it back. Okay, fine.
[27:54]Amazing. All right. Well, any advice for aspiring authors, because I didn't even touch
[27:59]out the fact that you actually wrote this whole book as well as this whole story.
[28:03]I wrote the book. I would say it took a long time for me, even though I had an agent and my agent
[28:10]so amazing in helping to guide me to this proposal process and all this stuff because this is my
[28:15]first one. And you know, thanks to her guidance, I feel so much more confident as I approach
[28:20]my second book, which I'm sort of working on. And I would say like really, truly honestly believe
[28:29]that your story matters. Like I, you know, once you read the book, I hope that I hopefully you
[28:34]will. When even I saw the podcast, I was like, who's going to care about like, boo, who you
[28:39]your husband doing a household got divorced, but you're like living in Paris and you're a single
[28:42]like sad story girl. You know, I didn't think that anyone would actually care. And you know,
[28:48]or yeah, and same with the book, I even as I was very much into writing the proposal. And then
[28:53]when I got the book to write in the book, there were moments when I was just like, who the hell? Who
[28:59]gives a fraction of a frogs behind about me and my life in Paris. And like my, you know,
[29:07]it's really something you do. And for one, but in fact, what I've come to, to discover and,
[29:13]and learn is that, you know, there's so many people in the world that either living the same
[29:18]experience or something similar. And just the fact of you putting yourself out there, whether it's
[29:23]through fiction, whether it's through a memoir, it can help so many people in addition to yourself,
[29:27]hope you process whatever you're processing. And it just, I think it helps to break this barrier
[29:32]of this barrier that we kind of, I think, tend to automatically happen to people, gives each
[29:38]other, it gives us a sense of each other's like humanity and vulnerability. And most importantly,
[29:44]I think it just stories help people, you know, be less mean to each other. Because you can like,
[29:51]you can connect with someone's story, like, a mom is a mom is a mom, whether you're white,
[29:56]black, Jamaican, circus, American, friends.
[30:00]Whorselman is a divorce woman, but they go young, old, black, white, you know what I mean?
[30:04]Like a young woman is, you know, so I think that's what stories do the most and share it,
[30:09]that's what you're sharing your story, no matter what format it's in, whether it's fiction, memoir,
[30:15]graphic novel, whatever it is or whatever you have to share, it's going to be helpful to definitely
[30:20]yourself and someone in the world. Someone, one of, out of one of us, seven billion souls in the
[30:26]a couple of us are gonna be like, you know what? Goddamn it, that writer was about to something.
[30:32]Well, I am one of the people, what would you say like a fraction of a frog's butt?
[30:36]I'm not sure that that's where I thought I would find myself today, but I guess I am in that club of
[30:43]the fraction of the dog's butt who cares about your story, you know. Anybody who gets through
[30:50]something emotional to me, I am all in. And I don't judge by where you live or how lucky you are
[30:57]in this way or that way when you go through pain and an experience that you have to find the
[31:02]strength to overcome. I love that. I find it massively inspirational.
[31:07]And one last thing, I know we're running out of time, I didn't want to keep you, but I just,
[31:11]I also, in running this book, or what I was thinking about rather, when I started the podcast,
[31:17]we've read this book is the narrative around divorce. Like it's either, yeah girl, whoo,
[31:25]part spring break, Cabo 20, 20, you know, 20, turn, or it's, I will, you know, I am now a jaded
[31:34]sad old person that doesn't leave me love anymore, that is completely just out of it.
[31:42]Just, you know, and there's an in between, there is the Cabo spring break and there is the jadedness.
[31:46]And I wanted to show that like, you know, even if divorce is, or your breakup of a long-term
[31:53]relationship was for the best, as mine was, it still hurts and it's still trauma. And you can be
[32:01]okay one day and not okay the next day and that's fine, but it's not like a, it's not like a dirty
[32:07]word. You know, and there's nothing to be ashamed of. I felt for a long time, a lot of shame
[32:13]my divorce. And I think in doing the podcast and writing about it, I freed myself from that,
[32:17]because there's nothing to be ashamed of. So, you know, as one of a comedian, I watched a comedy
[32:22]special the other day, Daniel Sloss, and he was talking about relationships, he has this amazing
[32:26]thing about the jigsaw relationship, whatever. And he said that, you know, time in a relationship
[32:32]does not people's success. And it's so true. You could be with someone for 15 years, I mean,
[32:37]miserable for like 14 out of those 15 years, because he stayed together doesn't mean that you're
[32:42]relationship is in any shape or form like an example of success. And yeah, I think I'm looking
[32:47]forward to seeing more stories, whether they're fiction or memoirs about that nuance kind of place
[32:53]where divorce can sit in one's life, one's history of one's life. Well, I'll start recommending
[32:58]more of those things. Please, please. Yeah, well, we'll have to get a glass of wine and discuss
[33:05]next time he comes to our mutual divorce is Sarah. I know lots of great wine spots. Or yeah,
[33:12]or you come up to dinner for one, but you don't cook. That's over. I am in dinner for one,
[33:16]you have to cook. I make a meme to the salad sandwich. Perfect. And that's your favorite
[33:25]dinner for one, the tuna salad sandwich. It is a little celery, a little relish. But that's the way
[33:31]my mom made it for me. So perfect. Perfect. Get a story behind that. All right. Well, hopefully,
[33:37]this is just to be continued of our conversation in some way. But thank you for thank you for this
[33:42]book and for our chat today and maybe for jumping up a latent interest in cooking. But I think I'm
[33:48]gonna smash it. You're welcome for everything. The chat and the potential desire to make a fancy
[33:56]meal. All right, take care. And I'll take you with to touch after. Okay, great. Thank you so much.
[34:05]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to
[34:09]follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also, sign up for
[34:15]my newsletter at zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on
[34:20]Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan. Heck, texture sound for the sound editing.
[34:25]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.