Terrence Real, US: Past You and Me to Build a More Loving Relationship
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[0:54]Terry Wheel is the author of us getting past you and me to build a more loving relationship
[1:03]This is a guest hosted episode by Allison Pataki the New York Times best-selling author herself
[1:08]And you can also listen to Allison's episodes here where I interview her about her book about
[1:14]Marjorie Post and many others
[1:16]Terry Wheel is a nationally recognized family therapist author and teacher
[1:19]He is particularly known for his groundbreaking work on men and male psychology as well as his work on gender and couples
[1:26]He has been in private practice for over 30 years
[1:28]Terry has appeared often as a relationship expert for good morning America and ABC news
[1:33]His work has been featured in numerous academic articles as well as media ventures
[1:38]Men use such as Oprah 2020 the Today Show CNN the New York Times
[1:41]So Wall Street Journal psychology today and many others in
[1:45]1997 he published the National Bestseller
[1:47]I don't want to talk about it the first book ever written on the topic of male depression
[1:51]That was followed by two more successful books on relationships offering practical guides for couples and couples therapist
[1:58]And most recently his New York Times bestseller us getting past you and me to build a more loving relationship
[2:03]Terry founded the relational life institute
[2:05]Which offers a training program for therapists as well as workshops for couples and individuals
[2:10]Hello everybody
[2:11]I am Allison Pataki and I have the privilege and the thrill of being joined by
[2:16]Terry Wheel Terrence Wheel is the nom de plume author of us
[2:21]Getting past you and me to build a more loving relationship
[2:26]Terrence is here now Terrence welcome
[2:29]Oh, it's lovely to be here. Thank you. Oh my goodness. Thank you for joining
[2:34]I feel as though this book us getting past you and me to build a more loving relationship
[2:39]Should be required reading for any member of the human race
[2:45]I mean there is just so much good stuff in here. I wrote at the top. I wept. I laughed. I learned
[2:52]I learned so much. Can you just start off by telling us and telling readers
[2:58]What this book is and why you had to write it? I had to write it because we're living in very divisive times
[3:06]And I'm a family therapist. I've been a couple of therapists for over 30 years
[3:11]It's really a critique of individual the toxic culture of individualism and what it does to us
[3:17]And here's the bottom line
[3:19]Individualism and patriarchy, which I've been writing about for 40 years
[3:25]teaches us that we are above nature
[3:30]We are separate from nature. That's what being an individual means. I'm
[3:34]I'm a separate individual
[3:38]And that we are in control that we dominate
[3:41]nature that and and that's diluted
[3:45]And it doesn't matter if the nature that you're trying to control is your spouse or your kids or your body
[3:54]I've got to lose 10 pounds or you're thinking I've got to be more positive
[3:59]or the planet or another race
[4:02]The idea
[4:03]Then we're above it and that we get to control it
[4:08]is one of the great
[4:10]Toxic delusions of the human race and it plays and and the the book fades out
[4:16]I start with neurobiology. I start with what happens in our brains, which I'm going to get to
[4:21]But I fade out to looking at racism
[4:25]homophobia
[4:27]Our relationship to the planet into ecology. What what I replace is
[4:34]The delusion of I'm above it and I get to control it
[4:39]Is what I call ecological wisdom
[4:42]Our relationships are our biosphere
[4:45]You're not above them. You're in them wake up and once you realize the humility
[4:53]Of our interdependence. I'm not above it. I'm in it
[4:57]Then we get to learn how to live relationally on this but for example
[5:04]The relational answer to the question who's right is who gives a damn
[5:08]It doesn't matter
[5:10]But matters is how are you and I'm going to work this out in a way that's going to work through
[5:15]Both of us. Yeah, but the old terms about right wrong. We end lose
[5:21]They're all they're all losers. We have to wake up
[5:26]We have to remember that we're a team. We have to remember in light and self
[5:32]Into you know, I get these big burly guys
[5:36]And they say to me. Why do I have to work so hard to please my wife and I go
[5:41]Knock knock hey dummy. You live with her
[5:46]That's why you have to work so hard to please her because you'll deal with the consequences if you don't yeah
[5:52]waking up to relationship
[5:55]And the reality that we're in relationship whether it's our bodies our kids ourselves the planet
[6:02]Is is a whole new world and when you eat do wake up and start living relationally everything
[6:10]Everything changes
[6:12]Yeah, all the skills change
[6:14]So you talk about relational mindfulness. How do we live with relational mindfulness?
[6:21]Well, as a couples therapist
[6:24]The most important question I asked myself is not what are the stressors because a good couple can handle stress
[6:31]And it's not even
[6:34]That's saying I teach all my students to identify the more the more the dance the choreography
[6:40]You know the more he pursues the more she distances the more she distance the more
[6:45]That's important the most important question is this
[6:50]Which part of you am I speaking to?
[6:53]Am I speaking to the part of you I call in the book the wise adult part of you
[7:00]Prefrontal cortex in the brain the most mature part of the brain to develop in a kid
[7:06]26 years old the most mature part of the brain to develop in the human species or
[7:12]Am I speaking to a sub-critical part of the brain?
[7:15]Fight flight
[7:17]Me me me me me me versus you. Yeah, it goes like this the autonomic nervous system
[7:24]scans the body
[7:26]Four times a second and my safe and my safe and my safe and my safe
[7:31]If the answer is yes, I'm safe
[7:34]I stay in my wise adult. I can stop. I can thank I'm not if the answer is no, I'm not safe
[7:41]We get flooded with automatic reactivity. Yeah, fight
[7:45]flight or fix
[7:48]Scrumming screw you you can do fleeing and six inches away from somebody that's called stolen or like somebody
[7:55]Manner very good at that and or fix which is big for women
[8:00]Fixing is not a thoughtful. Let me see what I can fix thing is a codependent
[8:06]Compulsive anxious all my god. You're upset. Let me take your upset
[8:11]Fight flight. I was like everybody listening. We take a moment and ask yourself when I'm not
[8:17]Centered what I'm in. I call it whoosh whoosh
[8:20]When I'm in my reactive automatic knee jerk response
[8:24]Am I a fighter a flier or a fixer?
[8:27]And this is the domain of the part of you I call the adaptive
[8:33]Child part of you. It's been a lot of press and a lot of trauma work about the wounded child are very young
[8:41]Just flooded but between the wise adult and that wounded child is the you that you learned to be
[8:50]In the face of what was happening to you and in the heat of the moment with your partner or kids or whoever
[8:58]You lose the wise adult you move into your automatic response
[9:03]It has everything we do with what you learned as a kid and you're on
[9:08]Runaway repeating the same damn thing over and over and over again
[9:14]Even though it doesn't work over and over and over again
[9:18]Yeah, but why do the people that we love the most?
[9:23]Have the ability to trigger us the most to bring up that traumatized child self
[9:31]Well, we picked them didn't we yeah, but yeah, we did
[9:35]But that's why well, it's what I call the mysticism the marriage
[9:39]Falling in love
[9:41]Means that this person is going to deliver me from all those old ones
[9:46]But the reality of marriage is this person is precisely designed to reopen all of those old ones
[9:55]And I think at the deepest level our soul knows that
[10:00]Pics them for that that doesn't mean you're in a bad marriage. What matters then is what do you do in that dark night of the soul?
[10:08]Do you just replay the same old same old or do you do something new and heal and in order to do something new and heal?
[10:18]You asked about relational mindfulness
[10:20]You have to move out of that automatic adaptive child
[10:26]into the thoughtful
[10:28]Self and that's what this book teaches. How
[10:33]When you're flooded in the heat of the moment
[10:36]How do you take a breath or a break walk around the block and get yourself
[10:41]Resentered in the part of you that wants to make things better
[10:45]Yeah, you know, the adaptive child doesn't give a damn about making things better
[10:48]The adaptive child is about proving you they're right
[10:51]Controlling their partner ventilating, retaliating or withdrawal. These are the five losing strategies. I go through
[10:59]The first order of business is getting centered in the part of you that even gives a damn about making things better to begin with now
[11:07]That moment is a moment of healing. Yeah. Can I tell you a story? Please do. That's why you're here, right?
[11:15]I
[11:16]This is the story I've been using to illustrate. It's a true story
[11:20]This is a couple on the break, which is my beat
[11:23]I deal with couples on the break of divorce that no one else has been able to help
[11:28]Couple on the break of divorce. The guy is a chronic liar lies about everything
[11:32]And he's one of these guys for the therapist listening and you know these guys
[11:37]I say to him the sky is blue and he's about sacramarine. I thought got to give it to me
[11:43]So it's fairly short order what I get is what his adapter child does because his relational stance is stick
[11:52]What he does over and over again? He is a champion evader
[11:56]He's got a black belt innovation
[11:59]so I
[12:01]Don't think individually. I think relationally if that adapter child learned to evade who was he evading?
[12:09]And I say to him something that sounds brilliant if you don't think this way, but the minute you think this way you get it
[12:16]Who tried to control you growing up
[12:19]his father
[12:20]military man how to sit how to eat
[12:24]Whose friends
[12:27]What courses everything?
[12:29]I said, how did you deal with this controlling father?
[12:33]He looks at me and smile that smile is important. That's resistant
[12:38]He looks at me and smiles and he goes I lied
[12:43]Brilliant
[12:45]Brilliant little boy
[12:47]I teach my students always be respectful of the exquisite
[12:53]Intelligence of the adaptive child. Yeah, you did exactly what you needed to do back then
[13:01]To preserve your integrity and your wholeness and get by good, but
[13:05]Adaptive then the maladaptive now. You're not that four-year-old boy
[13:12]Your wife is not your father. That's it. That was the whole session
[13:16]They came back two weeks later. It's actually true
[13:20]Hand in the hand all smiles. They were cured
[13:24]cured cured
[13:27]I said, okay, there's a story here. Tell me the story
[13:31]he said
[13:33]His wife sent him off to the grocery store over the weekend to pick up say 12 things and true to form
[13:40]He comes back with 11
[13:42]She says through him. Where's the publical?
[13:46]He says
[13:48]And everyone listening can relate to this every muscle and nerve in his body was
[13:54]Screaming to say they were out of it
[13:58]To protect cover lying protect himself. He said I took a breath
[14:03]I thought of you Terry and we can't pass through that. We lend our prefrontal cortex to our clients
[14:09]I thought of you. I looked my wife in the eye
[14:13]And I said I forgot the damn proper nickel
[14:17]And she is absolutely burst into tears
[14:20]And she said I've been waiting
[14:23]For this moment for 25 years
[14:26]That's recovery. That's intimacy
[14:30]That's moving beyond your childhood trauma
[14:33]Best with this book is all about how to do that. Yeah, and you write that it's not it's not that we never fight. It's not that there's never
[14:42]You know disharmony you say there is there's harmony
[14:46]There's disharmony, but then the critical piece here is the repair. Can you talk a little bit about that?
[14:52]All relationships are in endless stamps of harmony disharmony and repair
[14:58]Those are disruption in every term
[15:00]To close. I first got this from the work of Ed Tronic
[15:05]Infant observational researcher who plunked the camera and filmed mothers in infants
[15:12]That and you know the infant is like molded and then there's gas or no any infants freaking out the mother's freaking out
[15:20]The mother gets man. The infant goes like this and it's a man and then the passive and we're back
[15:26]Molded again harmony disharmony and repair is the essential rhythm of all relationships. It's like like walking balance and balance balance
[15:36]The problem is
[15:38]That when we move into that disharmony things
[15:42]We often get trauma triggered
[15:44]and instead of staying in our adult cells
[15:49]We move into the knee-jerk response that we learned as yes god damn
[15:54]I'm gonna not let you I'm a fighter or I can't I can't listen to this. I'm a slayer or oh my god
[16:01]I'll put up with any behavior because I'm a fixer
[16:05]And we just repeat the same things
[16:07]We have to learn to take a breath. Take a break. I'm a big fan of physical breaks. Take a walk around the block
[16:14]Get centered in the part of you
[16:17]I call it remembering love
[16:19]You remember that the person you're speaking to is someone you care about and the reason why you're speaking is to make things better
[16:27]Do you get rid of all those ridiculous agendas of revenge and control and expressing yourself and keep your eye on the prize of okay any
[16:37]Let's talk about what's gonna make this work
[16:40]And you lose the eye versus you
[16:44]Is what are we good can I give you another example? Yes. Okay. I'm sure people can relate to this. I'll make it a
[16:51]Classic heterosexual
[16:53]Appear not to exclude anybody but she says to him
[16:58]You're a reckless driver. He says to her you're overly anxious
[17:03]And they get into what I call an objectivity battle issue overly anxious to see a wreck no matter I well
[17:10]I have a speedometer. This is bullshit. It's a real objective reality has no place in personal relationship
[17:19]It doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong what matters is how it so she lets so now she's been working with me
[17:26]She says to her husband listen whether you're a reckless driver or you're not
[17:33]Let me tell you what happens
[17:35]When you go 20 miles above the speed limit
[17:38]Remove lay the lane tailgate cars. I'm sitting next to you like we're gonna die
[17:44]And you know we call me and maybe I am
[17:48]I don't know but look you love me
[17:52]You don't want me to be miserable every time I am in the passenger seat next to you as a favor to me
[17:59]Could you slow down when I'm in the car and drive more conservatively and he says true story to his own amazement?
[18:07]Yeah, I can do that and
[18:10]A fight that could have lasted 40 years
[18:14]There's done in 10 minutes because they stop thinking
[18:19]Individually and they start thinking relation. Yeah
[18:24]Terry you're very open and candid in this book about your own experience and the own
[18:31]Adaptive strategies you have your own inner child your own relationship
[18:37]Can you talk a little bit about that?
[18:39]Well, yeah, there's a documentary being made about me and my family that will be out about a year and a half
[18:45]Oh, right. I was just doing I was just doing inner child work with a friend and colleague Thomas
[18:52]Ooble a great healer
[18:54]Wait to see that
[18:56]When Belinda at my wife and I have a fight
[19:00]I have a deal with little Terry
[19:03]I have a composite. He's about eight years old. I've worked with him at home
[19:07]And I put him behind me like physically behind me. He's holding on to my shirt
[19:13]And I say to him look I will protect you the blast of anger or upset or whatever coming our way
[19:21]I am like Superman. I'll like take the hit
[19:24]Out of the explosion stops here
[19:26]Behind me you are completely protected. That's my part of the deal
[19:31]Now here's your part of the deal
[19:33]You let me deal with Belinda. Don't you try and deal with Belinda? You'll make a mess of it
[19:39]That's how that's how it goes
[19:41]And one of the things I say is
[19:43]Maturity comes when we manage our inner children, which is really just
[19:50]A fanciful way of talking about our trauma triggers when we manage our inner children
[19:56]And don't voice them on our partners to manage little Terry
[20:00]Harry, my little Terry's a fighter, you don't mess with him.
[20:04]And that's fine, but he's gotten me into a lot
[20:09]of difficulties over the years in a variety of relationships.
[20:13]Listen, buddy, I love you, I get it,
[20:17]and I'll take care of it.
[20:20]One of the things I say when an inner child kicks up in us,
[20:25]and you'll know that because it'll be reactive.
[20:28]When an inner child kicks up, put them on your lap,
[20:32]your arms around them, here what they have to say,
[20:36]and take their sticky hands off the steering wheel.
[20:39]You're not driving the bus, I am.
[20:42]You're in the back seat.
[20:44]That's the word.
[20:45]Compassion, compassion for that inner child.
[20:49]But also, managing it.
[20:51]Yeah, right.
[20:53]So what was it like for you writing this book?
[20:55]What was your process?
[20:56]And how did you, how long did it take?
[20:58]How did you decide which anecdotes to include?
[21:02]I've written four books.
[21:04]And my first book took me eight years to write.
[21:07]It was really teaching myself how to write.
[21:11]This one was a gift from God.
[21:13]I got up every morning at five in the morning,
[21:16]which is not my natural usual to do.
[21:19]But for a year, I got up every morning at five.
[21:21]I wrote from five to 10.
[21:23]And it just came out of me.
[21:25]It's really not to whatever,
[21:28]but it's really the combination of my life's work.
[21:31]A gift from God, you say, a gift to us all
[21:35]to read and dog ear and reread over and over again us,
[21:39]getting past you and me to build
[21:41]a more loving relationship.
[21:42]Terry, how can readers connect with you
[21:45]to find out all about the book,
[21:47]about your documentary, all the amazing work you're doing?
[21:50]Yeah, and let me say I'm doing
[21:53]some fair amount of online courses,
[21:56]all relationship skills for the general public.
[22:00]Just finishing up a course on parenting,
[22:02]relational parenting, how to raise relational kids.
[22:07]Can you write that book next?
[22:08]Can you write that book next?
[22:09]I think a lot of people on here
[22:11]would be interested in reading that one.
[22:14]Well, you can still take the course.
[22:16]Most people don't do it live.
[22:18]They review it afterwards and that's available.
[22:20]I have the course, the us workshop on how to,
[22:25]so go to just go to terryreal.com.
[22:28]Okay.
[22:29]And I've got all sorts of cool things on the website to offer.
[22:33]Great, terryreal.com to find out more.
[22:36]And the book is us getting past you and me
[22:38]to build a more loving relationship.
[22:40]Terry, thank you so much.
[22:42]And we will be following you and looking forward
[22:44]to all that is to come.
[22:46]Thank you.
[22:47]Thank you.
[22:48]Bye-bye.
[22:50]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[22:52]Don't have time to read books.
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[23:05]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[23:07]in fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[23:09]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[23:11]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.