Katherine St. John, THE VICIOUS CIRCLE: A Novel
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[0:58]Catherine St. John is the author of the vicious circle, a novel.
[1:01]Catherine is a native of Mississippi and a graduate of the University of Southern California,
[1:06]who spent over a year in the film industry as an actress, screenwriter, and director before turning to pending novels.
[1:12]When she's not writing, she can be found hiking or on the beach with a good book.
[1:16]Catherine currently lives in Atlanta with her husband and two daughters.
[1:19]Welcome, Catherine. Thank you so much for coming on moms.
[1:22]Don't have time to read books.
[1:24]I'm so happy to be here and finally get to meet you.
[1:27]You too. Oh, my gosh.
[1:28]I was just saying you are the most prolific author.
[1:31]You're doing one book a year, the siren, the lion's dead, and now a vicious circle.
[1:35]This is like, boom, boom, boom.
[1:37]One after the next.
[1:38]How are you doing this and congratulations?
[1:41]I mean, the trick I think is to be writing one while I'm editing the one that's about to come out.
[1:48]You know, so when you go back and forth with your editor, you have like, you know, a couple weeks to a couple months, depending on how long she takes.
[1:57]That I use that time to get started on my next book.
[2:01]So I'm always like in the process of writing, editing, promoting, adapting.
[2:08]It's I have so many different books and so many different stories going on in my head.
[2:12]I have to like switch gears.
[2:15]So impressed. Okay.
[2:17]Before we jump into each book, go back for two seconds because you had a 10 year career in the Hollywood side of life.
[2:24]So tell me about that. You've had every role imaginable there as well.
[2:28]It's like you are like the constant multitasker.
[2:31]I feel like you're like, you have the superpower of like two million things.
[2:35]So take me through that and how you transition over into this world.
[2:40]Well, I think that I found the one career as a writer where having all of these other careers is actually a qualification.
[2:48]Like master of no jack of all trades master of none. I found one in which all of that stuff actually works for me because I have all these different experiences.
[2:58]I've always been a storyteller.
[3:00]When I was younger, I was an actress and that was how I really first got into storytelling. It's just a different mode of it.
[3:08]You're using your body as your instrument instead of words. You know, so I was an actress for many years and then I started really getting interested in the other side of the camera and writing and directing.
[3:22]Wait, and would you say actress was this like TV film stage?
[3:27]I was in details here, please.
[3:30]Went to the University of Southern California and was in their acting department. So we did a ton at theater at school.
[3:36]And then actually while I was in school, I started doing like television and film and commercials, you know, I was able to pay my bills acting, which is a real win for a young actress.
[3:47]But you know, it was like small roles and big films and big roles and small films and it never really progressed past that.
[3:56]So I reached a point when I was like, okay, this isn't sustainable. Like I want to have kids.
[4:02]I don't want to be having to leave my little babies for three months to go shoot a film in Turkey.
[4:09]So I started thinking like what else do I want to do? I always wanted to write a book. And so I had two little girls back to back and I'd been working in production.
[4:20]And when my second daughter was born, I was like, I need to take a break and just stay home with my little girls.
[4:26]And this is the opportunity to write a book.
[4:28]And so I call my first book, the lion's done the nap time novel because I wrote it during nap time because that was the only time that I had, you know, and I didn't do anything else. I didn't, you know, cook. I don't ever really cook.
[4:42]I didn't clean the house. I didn't, you know, go to the grocery or do anything else. My husband, thank heavens was very helpful with all those things because all I did was take care of the kids and write.
[4:52]all I could do. And and it was a good thing that I did because now I get to do it full time.
[4:58]Amazing. So when you started writing at nap time, tell me about the writing experience you had up till then.
[5:05]So were you writing screenplays as well and did you do this for when you were a kid or you just like now's my chance to become a novelist.
[5:14]I have always written. I have somewhere framed a poem that I wrote in the third grade that got third place in the Mississippi like poetry contest for kids.
[5:25]Congratulations.
[5:26]My mom was very proud of me. My mom was an English teacher.
[5:29]She's retired now. And my dad, it is a lawyer playwright. So it runs in the family. I think everybody in my family has some sort of a book at least halfway written.
[5:40]I also wrote, I had a, I had a stint as a singer songwriter. And I turned my love of writing poetry into writing songs because I mean songs really are poetry it's poetry you're saying.
[5:51]And then it was when I was working as an actress that I got started, I started writing screenplays.
[5:56]I wrote commercials. I've written like all kinds of like promo copy, you know, but my favorite thing is writing novels because you really get to be.
[6:06]You get to be everything. I like if you're writing like with a screenplay. It's such a collaborative effort making a movie or a TV show.
[6:15]You know, you really are dependent on your actors and your director and your costume or and like you know you're working with all these people which is so much fun.
[6:23]But when you're writing, you are all of those people. You're the costume or you're the director or you're the cinematographer. You're setting the scene.
[6:31]You know, giving the characters their words, you know, all of it. So it's really fun to do it that way.
[6:39]And I love getting into a world and finding the best words to make other people come to that world with me.
[6:48]Love it.
[6:49]Yeah, all of your novels. I feel like have the strongest sense of place. Right. And that's you call it. I read it a real with you or you recall again, escape is fiction and how it's really important to you to take your readers to different places while you set the stage.
[7:03]So tell me about, tell me about that and take us through all three of your books in terms of setting and synopsis and how they all like linked together.
[7:14]Absolutely. I mean, when I start thinking about what I want to write next, I start with where I want to go.
[7:20]And then I start thinking about what story do I want to tell while I'm there what story really works in this environment.
[7:26]I think that's I mean that's that's the escapist part of the escapist thrillers is getting to take re or somewhere in and where I want to go.
[7:34]So with my first book, the lion's den, it is set on a yacht in the Mediterranean who doesn't want to go on a yacht in the Mediterranean. I mean, I think we all do right.
[7:44]But of course, when our lead character bell gets to this yacht in the Mediterranean, it is not all it's cracked up to be.
[7:50]And her friend from childhood has turned into quite a gold digger and her sugar daddy who owns the yacht is very controlling.
[7:59]And things are not what they seem to be. I'm really into things that are not what they seem to be on the surface.
[8:05]And so having these beautiful locations, these places that would seem like oh my gosh, I really want to go there and then you get there and it's oh wait a minute, something else is going on here.
[8:16]So we were in the Mediterranean for that one on the coast of Italy and France. And then in my second way, did you go, did you go for research purposes?
[8:26]Yes, I did because you got to do that. Yeah, of course. Okay.
[8:32]I had actually been there years before and thought this would be an amazing place to set a book.
[8:38]And I just had to figure out what exactly the story was and how I was going to tell that story.
[8:45]But that was like kicking around in my head for years before I actually got the opportunity to sit down and write the lion's den was I had been to Santa
[8:54]okay, I had seen the yachts, I had experienced a little bit of that world and I thought how interesting it is, you know, for somebody who's a normal person looking at like people who have all of you know, all of the wealth at their fingertips that can just
[9:10]fail around on yachts and jets and what that does to a person, you know, so the lion's den is really about money and what it does to people.
[9:18]I just had to figure out like how to tell that in a really fun way, you know, so it's not it's never moralizing it's never, it's fun.
[9:26]You know, blingy, swingy, yacht and fashion porn within a little bit of a socially conscious message. What was your conclusion of what wealth does to people.
[9:36]It depends on the person.
[9:38]It both magnifies the qualities that are already there.
[9:42]So if someone has a tendency to be generous, if they are a wealthy person, they will likely get involved in every charity and they will become more generous.
[9:51]If someone has insecurities and needs to prove themselves, they will use wealth to do that.
[9:57]Someone is a pretty nasty person.
[10:00]it can really do a number on them. So that was what I found is that it doesn't change us,
[10:05]it just magnifies the qualities that were already there. So my second book, The Siren is set
[10:12]on a Caribbean island. And I love the Caribbean as well. And it's funny too with my books,
[10:18]it's not just about the setting, I also like to find a way to make it somewhat isolated.
[10:22]So with the lion's den, it is on a yacht, which is isolated. And there's no wi-fi on the yacht.
[10:29]cell phones don't really work when you get farther off shore. With The Siren, it's set on a beautiful
[10:33]Caribbean island that is owned by the movie star who is producing the film that is being shot there.
[10:39]So he has kind of ultimate control over everything. He not only is paying everyone,
[10:45]but he also owns the island resort where they're staying, owns the soundstage, all of it. And it is on an
[10:51]isolated Caribbean island. So when a hurricane starts heading for the island, we have a big problem.
[10:56]That was also a really fun setting. And where did you go for that research?
[11:01]I went to the Bahamas. I went to the British Virgin Islands. I'm really indiscriminate about where I'll
[11:07]go in the Caribbean. I'm just like, I'm trying to see if I could follow this itinerary round.
[11:13]The, you know, for a wish list dream. Right. You're a traveler or something. But okay, so keep going.
[11:20]So when it came time to write my third book, I was like, okay, I've done beach beach. So let me do
[11:25]something a little bit different. Let me do the jungle. And so for this book, for the vicious circle,
[11:30]it is set in a remote Mexican jungle. It is specifically a jungle that is on the borderline between
[11:38]Mexico and Guatemala. And it's the second largest, you know, rainforest system outside of the Amazon.
[11:43]And it also allows us to have that kind of isolation because this is the beautiful place where
[11:51]my lead character goes to bid her uncle farewell. His, his retreat center called Xanadu stands.
[11:57]It's like a wedding cake standing on the edge of this river deep in the jungle. It requires
[12:04]a plane helicopter and a boat to get there. So once you're there, it's a real problem. If
[12:09]your helicopter needs a part and can't come get you, there's no way out so that that allowed
[12:14]me to isolate them. And it's also really fun to have Jaguars and snakes and crocodiles and all of
[12:20]those kind of things around them in the jungle. I love how in the beginning you say that she had
[12:28]feta says how she, she knows about the wealth because of her fiance chase and how his family has
[12:34]houses and like aspen and this like 15,000 square foot house Connecticut and the Hamptons and whatever,
[12:40]but like that the brochures had not done this place justice because it was a bit more breathtaking
[12:45]than all of those things combined. Yes. Yes. And when she gets there, she thinks it's going to be
[12:50]really cool because it's this beautiful mansion with like tumbling gardens and all these beautiful
[12:56]people with this very transcendent vibe and they're all very welcoming, but the more that she gets
[13:00]into it, the more that she starts to see that their belief system is disturbing and this is no
[13:07]wellness center. This is a cult. And that you have her ex boyfriend suddenly become the lawyer at
[13:14]this home. Right. Yes. Because that's another thing that I really like to add into my books is
[13:20]some romance. You know, because who doesn't like some romance? I feel like it really gives a heart
[13:27]to it. You know, so you've got like all this thriller stuff going on and it does get dark in places,
[13:33]but it's always people to a place where after they finish the book, they're going to be depressed.
[13:39]You know, I don't want that to happen. I want them to feel like they went on a ride with this
[13:45]character and feel satisfied by it at the ending without feeling like, you know, sometimes you
[13:52]finish a book and you're like, oh man, I need to go read something like now. I try to give them
[13:56]a lightness that they don't feel that way. That they'll just be ready for your next book.
[14:01]I hope so. Yeah. But would you figure it out? So I assume you already have a fourth one either
[14:07]completely written or in progress or maybe one fifth one started? Is that where you are?
[14:13]Well, I've so in between books three and four, I'm editing my fourth book right now, which is
[14:18]set in Greece. I just can't stay away from the beach. Make it up. Where are you going? Where are
[14:25]we going? I agree. It's a fictional island called me, trust. And it's in the cyclities,
[14:30]but I needed it to be, unless I'm actually going to be writing on the island, I like to make
[14:38]like the one that's in the Caribbean is also fictional because I need it to check certain boxes for
[14:44]me. And it's very difficult to do that with a real place. If you're not actually living there,
[14:49]you know, I don't ever want to, you know, and I of course have been degrees. I've been to
[14:53]Mekinos have been a centurion. I love Greece, but I am not living there while I'm writing it. And I
[14:59]want to be as authentic as I can with every place that I set things. So I don't want to set them
[15:04]on an island and then have people who've been to that island be like, oh, but that house isn't
[15:10]like, there's no house like that on that island. You know, people get caught up in those kind of
[15:13]things. So if I'm fictionalizing, I like to go ahead and just like make it, you know, a Greek island
[15:21]that's not a real island, but it's one that you might find there. Gotcha. So head to you,
[15:28]wait, my question before was when you're picking your next novel, the elements, do you start with
[15:35]place and then you move on to robots and then conflict? Like do you have what big things are set
[15:42]before you start to write it? Well, everything I have all my whole moments set. So I know the beginning
[15:48]and I know where I'm going. I know I know the end. So it's really like it's a character arc thing.
[15:53]So like I find the place and then I think about my characters and their arc, like, you know,
[15:58]they're going from here to here. And that allows me to kind of plot out like, okay, what kind
[16:03]of a love interest? Am I going to be able to give them and what kind of things are going to stand
[16:08]in between them and their love interest? And that's going to have to do with their arc. So I like to
[16:14]make the internal struggles that a character is going through external. So I give them some sort of
[16:20]an external conflict that illuminates their internal conflict. So what for the character is like,
[16:29]you know, in my most recent book, the vicious circle, so that's my main character isn't incredibly
[16:34]confident. She's been a model her entire life and has been told since she was 14 that she's
[16:39]not thin enough or pretty enough or exciting enough or smart enough. And she's internalized
[16:43]all of that. And she's not very confident. So it's a journey of confidence for her, but that
[16:49]would be kind of boring to read about just, you know, trying, you know, so it, so all of these external
[16:55]things are illuminating that and helping her find her way to confidence. So it's a thrill ride
[17:04]paged her for the reader. And for Spetta, it's her, her reclaiming her confidence.
[17:10]I wouldn't be a part of this brainstorm for a book of years. I want to let go with you and be like,
[17:17]where should we go? Where's the beautiful eyelids or places where you're isolated in some way?
[17:24]And it just seems like such a fun, immersive process, even the brainstorm. Do you feel like it's
[17:31]super fun? It is. It is really fun. I get super into it. My poor husband has to listen to me,
[17:37]talk about her. I'm very fortunate. My agent is a editorial agent. And so she and I talk through
[17:45]all of this and she can really see it as we're talking about it. And she'll have great ideas too.
[17:50]And so like, she's the one person. We'll have these like marathon four hour phone calls,
[17:55]you know, where we kind of root around in my head and figure out, you know, exactly what we're
[18:02]doing. And she's like the only person that I'll really allow inside my head. And it's, I feel
[18:08]very fortunate to have that, to have somebody that I can fail in front of that I can tell terrible
[18:12]ideas too. And she can be like, no, I think we're going to do something else. Who is your agent?
[18:19]Sarah bedding field at Levine, Greenberg, Ristan, literary agency. She's wonderful.
[18:25]That's amazing. Wait. So aside from Greece, where do we have to look forward to? Do you have any
[18:31]other ones? Well, I am going to Portugal for two weeks in November. So expect something from Portugal.
[18:40]There'll always be any time I'm going somewhere. I'm thinking about what am I going to write here.
[18:44]I have a book that goes that during the pandemic, I spent a lot of time. I was living in Los Angeles at
[18:53]the time. And I had a friend with a house in Palm Springs. And the kids weren't in school anyway.
[19:00]So we just went to Palm Springs and hung out where our kids could actually swim in the afternoon
[19:06]and run around with the golf course and sort of have somewhat of a normal seeming life. And so I did
[19:12]set something at a on a beautiful golf course type of place in Palm Springs. However, that book,
[19:20]I have put away currently. I will, I'm going to circle back to it because it kept growing and it
[19:26]got a little out of control. And I have to, and he did a moment to step back so that I could trim it
[19:31]up and figure out exactly what I wouldn't do with it. Wow. And you've been adapting, tell me about
[19:38]that. Yes. So I'm adapting currently for television, the lion's den and the siren, which is a
[19:45]fascinating process because you really have to use the book as a jumping off place. And you not
[19:52]only have to break up in the ending so that it can be open up to a second, third, fourth season.
[19:58]But you also have to
[20:00]think about it in terms of the format for television, which is so different than the format
[20:04]for a book. The format for a book is a lot more like a really long movie, whereas with television
[20:09]each episode has to have like a beginning and middle and end. Things have to happen. Like it
[20:14]has to be these bite-sized pieces as opposed to one big meal. So that's been really fascinating.
[20:20]And I think it makes me storytelling in different ways. I feel like it just makes you a better
[20:25]storyteller because it makes you, you can use some of the things that you're using for
[20:30]television or that you're using for songwriting or that you're using, you know, for writing a
[20:33]commercial in your novel writing as well, you know, makes you maybe think more visually or think
[20:41]about your dialogue, you know. Have you thought about podcasting? Do you think some sort of scripted
[20:46]podcast situation? I have not thought about podcasting. I have not thought about that, but now I have.
[20:53]I feel like you've done everything out. I'm like thinking like we are, what are the other
[20:56]mood days of storytelling? I feel like I'm like, I'm like, I'm very much trying to stay afloat.
[21:05]I'm like, I'm such a juggler and it's constantly like I have to write down at the like
[21:10]being in the day. Like these are the things that I have to address today. And I have to focus on one
[21:15]at a time. And then I try and give myself like in between, you know, maybe I will meditate for
[21:21]10 minutes or I will go walk the dog or something to switch so that I'm so that I don't have
[21:26]bleed from one project into another. I have to do a little reset before I keep going. Do you do
[21:33]time blocks? Like I'm going to do this from 9 to 11? No, because it's so task oriented that I have
[21:40]to get to a stopping place. I have to I can't leave like from the middle of an idea. I can't allow
[21:45]myself to stop that idea because then it won't, you know how it is with ideas. They might not
[21:50]come back. Like if the muse shows up, you entertain her no matter what time it is, you know,
[21:57]even if she wants to show up at 2 o'clock in the morning, you'd have to at least pull your phone up
[22:02]and type in whatever it is that the muse is telling you, you know, I feel like I I rely word,
[22:09]like I'm going to deal with my inbox, but I'm going to do this just until it hits like 150
[22:14]then I'm going to switch to this so that you know, I have to think about it that way.
[22:18]Absolutely. I feel like for administrative tasks. Yes, I try and get those out of the way.
[22:22]Yeah, because that will definitely interrupt your creative flow. You have to start thinking about
[22:26]logistics and if you read a review or how old are your girls out? My girls are six and eight,
[22:38]which is it's a great age. You know, a lot of people really love babies and I love babies. My
[22:44]babies were great and I love other people's babies, but I really like kids because you can talk
[22:49]to them and you can play with them and they're fun and they're they say funny things and you know,
[22:55]they try on my shoes. They're really cute, you know, this is going to be our first time when we
[23:02]take them to Portugal, traveling that far with them. We've taken them to Mexico and to Jamaica,
[23:09]but this will be like the first time in Europe and we're going to stop in Paris as well.
[23:13]just because they're obsessed with Paris and and want to see it. So, but they're finally,
[23:18]this is what I've looked forward to, you know, about being a parent is this age where you can
[23:22]really do stuff with them and show them the world and and talk to them about ideas and and start
[23:29]to see them developing into these adorable little people. I totally agree. My little guys are seven
[23:36]and nine right now. Okay, I feel like I'm in the same. Yeah, I have twins who are 15. So,
[23:42]I feel like I get now a second chance to really appreciate what this age. Yeah, no, I'm
[23:47]appreciating it even more now, but uh, major years. I'm I'm I'm a little afraid of. I've heard
[23:53]so many horror stories about the years. I like to do not gonna happen, but so far so good for
[24:01]great guys at least. I mean, it's like one minute after the next. I think I'll I don't know. We're
[24:06]very close. It's I don't know. So far so good. I'll just say it like that. I don't know how these guys
[24:11]will do the little guys. They're very admitted already, but we'll see. I was just here in law
[24:16]who has children that are a little bit older than mine. One of the pieces of advice she gave me
[24:20]is that whatever it is that they're interested in, just be interested in it. You need to learn about
[24:24]it. If it's Pokemon, learn about Pokemon. If it, you know, whatever it is, even if it's not
[24:29]something that you would naturally be interested in and that that gives you a way to stay close
[24:34]and to be able to talk to them about something that they're interested in talking about not
[24:37]something like how was school today. You need more, you know, more than that. I actually had my
[24:43]kids teach me how to play roblox when they were really into roblox. I love that. Now I've taken away
[24:49]their iPads for months. I pretended I lost them because I actually did lose them for a little bit,
[24:53]but then I was like, well, this is going well. I think I might not give them back. And now let me
[24:56]so much better. He's always a good option. The problem is that children are really wily and they will
[25:02]find things. Yeah. I mean, I actually could not find it. So it's, you know, that's okay.
[25:09]Do your kids get involved in plotting or your characters or like what are they, what's their
[25:14]involvement when you have a book come up? They are my little publicists. They, they're completely
[25:19]inappropriate. They are constantly pushing my books on people. They're, I think I totally
[25:24]appropriate. That's their job. Well, and they'll, you know, one of their teachers, they'll find
[25:29]out his right a book of mine. And then they'll, they want to feel special. So they want to bring in
[25:33]a book. You want me? You want me? Can we bring her a book sign? Well, me. And I'm like, of course,
[25:37]but you can't, my books are not appropriate for first and third graders. And so please not be reading
[25:42]it in the classroom. You know, they're dying to read my books. They're always trying to open them up
[25:46]and like, you know, sneak a page here and there. But we're not there yet. We're not there yet.
[25:52]Too much about children's books. I don't know that I have the mind for children's books.
[25:58]I think that that is a people who write, I feel like children's books. They are, it's a different
[26:05]like my mom, for example, as a teacher. And she is a person who could write children's books. She
[26:11]thinks in the mind of a child. She thinks about how I'm murdering people. Like it's not appropriate.
[26:20]You know, I thought like I should write a book without a murder. You know, and I've thought about
[26:24]that. But every time I sit down to try and write a book without somebody gets killed. You know,
[26:30]so I do what I do and will it change over the course of my life? Probably hopefully who knows.
[26:37]But right now, I love what I do and I'm going to keep doing it. Love it.
[26:43]Is this is this compulsion to murder people based on any sort of anger you feel towards anyone
[26:48]particular person or it's just because you like it as a story? Is there some, is there some
[26:53]anger you have? Do you see it? I am like probably the least angry person you'll ever meet.
[26:58]Like I, I, I, anger doesn't stick with me. I'm a very like role with the punches,
[27:04]surf in the wave of life type of person. I'm, I'm looking for fun everywhere I go. I'm a,
[27:10]I don't have a lot of anger issues. It's more about my murders or murders, murders more in like
[27:16]the, the British sense, like the, like you know, like a man or murder, you know, it's, it's like
[27:23]it's more of a fun murder. I'm never going to kill children or animals. I can't, I, and when I read
[27:29]a book where a kid dies in the beginning, I cannot read like if this is what we're going to be
[27:34]dealing with, I can't do that because I can't go there because I, you know, it's hard enough as a
[27:39]parent not to constantly be worried about horrible things happening to your children. Yeah,
[27:43]irrational all the time. Yeah. And when I read about a child dying in a book, like it hurts me so
[27:48]badly, even though I understand its fiction, yeah, it's hard for me to go on. So that's,
[27:54]if there's kid murders, it's saying it with television same thing. It's like, okay, no,
[27:58]I can't do this. Yep, something else. Yeah. This is probably a totally inappropriate question,
[28:04]but you happen to also in addition to be being prolific author and creator and storytelling,
[28:09]but you are gorgeous. So I want to know your skin, I want to know your, what do you use?
[28:15]Skin care care care. Like what, what tips can you share? I need to know the makeup,
[28:21]what any products. Oh, I'm pretty grateful. I really am. I've been using hyaluronic acid,
[28:28]you know, and I've been using vitamin C, like a vitamin C serum, a hyaluronic acid serum.
[28:34]And I just started using a red light. Have you heard of red light therapy? No. Okay. So red light
[28:40]therapy, like if you go, like you can go and get like broadband light, like on your face to help you
[28:44]get rid of like age spots and stuff like that and fine lines and wrinkles. And it's like this
[28:48]red laser that they put over your face. And they now sell lights that have like,
[28:55]and I'm not going to get the science here. Right. So nobody quote me on this, but there's like
[29:00]a certain wavelength of light that is really good for the skin and also for things inside the body.
[29:06]So it has both red light and infrared light and you sit in front of it. And I sit in front of
[29:11]of it to meditate because it's like, okay, this is going to force me to meditate. Just 10 minutes a
[29:14]day. And I'll sit in front of the red light. And you put on these little goggles in front of the
[29:19]red light. And it's supposed to be really good for like skin rejuvenation. It helps you sleep better,
[29:26]improves your mood. If you spot treat areas of the body, like it's really good for inflammation.
[29:30]So like, I have a bunion on my right foot. And sometimes and I've been wearing, you know, real people
[29:36]shoes for too long. It'll be throbbing. And so I'll put my foot in front of it. And it helps. It
[29:41]really does. So I've just started using it like, I don't know, six weeks, two months ago. So
[29:47]we'll see whether I can keep it up and whether it really does what it's supposed to do. But so
[29:53]for some good. Okay. Great tip.
[30:00]How Google goggles to buy for red light?
[30:03]I wonder if you could use the red light instead of like a ring light when you do interviews.
[30:11]It makes you multitaskable.
[30:13]It's very bad.
[30:14]You can't stare into it.
[30:16]My children will see the light and they'll see the bathroom that looks red and I'll be like,
[30:20]oh no, Mommy's using the red light.
[30:21]Don't go in there.
[30:22]That's so funny.
[30:23]Okay.
[30:24]I love it.
[30:26]Okay, sorry.
[30:27]That was the total deviation, but I had to ask.
[30:29]Okay.
[30:30]Last question.
[30:31]What advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[30:33]Just do it in the words of Nike.
[30:35]Don't let me think it in your way.
[30:37]It's so easy to make excuses.
[30:39]It's so easy to feel like, well, I don't know the ending yet or I don't have five
[30:46]hours to really focus on this.
[30:49]I don't.
[30:50]And that doesn't matter.
[30:51]You don't take it from somebody who wrote her first book with two very small children.
[30:55]You don't need five hours.
[30:57]You don't have to decide, you know, whatever you can manage and just start putting
[31:01]words on paper and also don't, don't be too precious about it.
[31:05]No first draft is good.
[31:07]And if you wrote a good first draft, you know, kudos to you, I have yet to do it.
[31:12]Every time I write a first draft, I'm like, oh, this is terrible.
[31:15]I'm never going to write a first draft.
[31:16]But some brilliant soul said that writing a first draft is like scooping sand into a sandbox
[31:22]knowing that later you will make castles.
[31:26]And that's what I like to think about it as like you, you're just, I'm putting the elements
[31:30]in there.
[31:31]And I know that like it's really in the editing process that the real work takes place.
[31:35]And I actually love the editing process because I feel like so much of the work is already
[31:40]done because I've already put all the characters in there and put the problems in there.
[31:46]And now it's just about molding them and getting it all right.
[31:50]So yeah, just do it.
[31:51]Just sit down and do it and don't let anybody tell you otherwise and don't second
[31:55]gas yourself.
[31:57]You never know who's going to be a fantastic writer, somebody that majored in English
[32:02]might be terrible, somebody that didn't go to college might be the next JK rolling.
[32:07]You just don't know.
[32:09]I love that.
[32:10]I love the sandcastle sandbox metaphor as well.
[32:13]That is super helpful.
[32:15]I cling to it.
[32:16]I do.
[32:17]It's really helpful.
[32:18]Yeah.
[32:19]And in moments of terror, I have, I've googled like, what do other authors say about
[32:25]first draft?
[32:26]They all said this the same thing, which is that they're terrible.
[32:32]Yeah.
[32:33]Okay.
[32:34]I feel better now myself.
[32:35]That's great.
[32:36]Okay.
[32:37]This has been so much fun.
[32:38]I hope I meet you in person sometime.
[32:40]Thank you for coming on and I'm sorry it's taken so long for us to connect.
[32:45]But by the time I talk to you next, you'll written three more books.
[32:48]Oh, man.
[32:50]That's a lot.
[32:51]All right.
[32:52]Well, thank you so much.
[32:53]This is really fun.
[32:54]Thanks, Debbie.
[32:55]Okay.
[32:56]Have a great day.
[32:57]Okay.
[32:58]Bye-bye.
[32:59]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[33:03]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebiowens and at Moms Don't Have Time to
[33:07]Read Books.
[33:08]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and
[33:12]meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[33:14]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[33:16]It's a great texture sound for the sound editing and thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[33:20]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.