Rina Raphael, THE GOSPEL OF WELLNESS: Gyms, Gurus, Goop, and the False Promise of Self-Care
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[0:58]Rina Raphael is the author of the Gospel of Wellness, gyms, gurus, goop, and the false promise of self-care.
[1:04]Rina is a journalist who specializes in health, wellness, tech, and women's issues.
[1:08]She was a features contributor for Fast Company Magazine, and has also written for The New York Times, The Less Angeles Times, CBS, NBC, News, and Medium's Elemental, among other publications.
[1:19]Her wellness industry newsletter, Well to Do, covers trends and news, and offers market analysis.
[1:25]Raphael has spoken on the wellness industry and national conferences, such as the Global Wellness Summit, and the Fast Company Innovation Festival.
[1:32]Previously, she served as a senior producer and lifestyle editor at today.com and NBCNews.com.
[1:38]Welcome, Rina. Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss the Gospel of Wellness, gyms, gurus, goop, and the false promise of self-care.
[1:46]Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat with you.
[1:49]There is just so much in the book. Every chapter, I was like, okay, let's talk about this.
[1:54]Oh, yeah, this too. Yeah, let's talk about green juice.
[1:57]Like, let's talk about all the things. Basically, your book is like, let's take apart all of these assumptions and everything that's made the self-care wellness business into what it is today.
[2:07]And dismantle it and see like, wait, what's really working, what's science, what's not, and all of that, right?
[2:14]You might have a better pitch, but that's what I got.
[2:17]Well, I also say just why we're so attracted to wellness. Like, how did it become such a huge industry and specifically over the last 10 years, and why is it always women and why are women targeted more than men?
[2:30]I thought that was the most fascinating part of the research I did about what women were looking for and how much pain they're in in America.
[2:37]Yeah, you talked about sort of debunking this notion of adrenal fatigue and is that even a thing, you know, everybody's so tired and you're like, well, is it adrenal fatigue or are we just actually running ourselves into the ground and looking for quick, quick-ish fixes to get us out of like the corner where we've, well, the whole that we've dug ourselves into rather.
[2:58]Yeah, I mean, it's probably more appealing to, you know, just take a pill or supplement them to deal with the actual issues that are making us feel so tired and so sluggish and just depleted.
[3:10]We love a quick fix and I don't blame people. They don't necessarily have the time to deal with this stuff.
[3:16]Yeah, it's so funny. When I had COVID the first time or something, I was like, I think I'm really, you know, dehydrated whenever I remember like calling my doctor and I was like, well, what should I do?
[3:27]You know, I don't even know and he's like, well, click a sway to fight. Great dehydration is to drink water.
[3:34]Thank you, there's nothing else you can do. Jamie, like I was like, I should get this. I should take this pill. I should do this.
[3:41]I should get an injection. He's just like, just drink, just drink your water. And it's such a perfect. Yeah, metaphor for for the shortcuts are all looking for.
[3:52]Yeah, but I'll say this is that when we buy these fancy products or I don't know, IV injections, whatever it is, we feel like we're taking action. There's a psychological impact of like, well, I'm doing this extra thing.
[4:05]But oftentimes you're just wasting money. You could have just had a glass of water. I kind of just, which is what I ended up doing, but then I had to pay the doctor. So anyway, shame on me.
[4:14]You know, I first of all, I'm really sorry about the loss of your dad. You wrote about that in the book and really beautifully. In fact, and I was really struck by how that was the way that you sort of dissected this community aspect of places like soul cycle or particular
[4:29]gyms and classes that purport to really unify you. And then in your time of need, it was turned out it was your synagogue, which is actually an experience I had sort of similarly. And I was like, oh my gosh, like, look who's showing up for me, even though I give up so little in emotionally and get so much out of it.
[4:46]And what what does community mean when it comes to exercise. So tell me a little bit about all of them. Yeah. And my point in that chapter is in that I won't should go and join a synagogue.
[4:56]No, I know. I'm sorry. I didn't know. No, no, no, I alluded to that. But just the fact that, you know, one thing religion has and it's definitely not perfect is that they've had centuries to perfect certain aspects, including community and they have different entry points.
[5:11]The point of that chapter is to say that, you know, I had a specific experience where I wanted to see people more, but I was exhausted and getting my friends together for dinner was like hurting cats.
[5:22]If anyone's been on a text message thread trying to get all their friends together, it's so painful. And so I kind of fell for the marketing that was all about, you know, boutique gym is your family, your community, your tribe.
[5:33]And I had a personal experience where, you know, you go through a major milestone and, you know, I laugh that your soul cycle instructor isn't going to come over with a casserole. There are no memorial rights.
[5:45]And this idea of like when I needed community, I was not going to go work on my body. It was ludicrous. I needed something more.
[5:53]And throughout my research, you know, I found out a lot of people because they counted on their gym to be their community. We're often left kind of hand, you know, holding the bag, you know, if they lost their job.
[6:05]Do you think that they can go to a soul cycle or boutique gym and be like, Hey, I can still come right, you're my family.
[6:11]You know, there's actually a gym that I profiled for fast company in New York City that was just for pregnant women.
[6:18]It was a gym specifically for them.
[6:20]And when I interviewed these women, they all told me the same thing.
[6:23]I was kicked out of my gym once I was in my third trimester.
[6:26]And these people were my community. Like, where do I go? And so they had to build their own gym.
[6:31]So, you know, I'm not saying everyone depends on their gym for community, but just, you know, what are we being sold and how does the marketing get it to what's really the problem in America?
[6:40]We have a loneliness crisis here. We don't get to see our friends. And if we don't have communal support and the industry comes in and sells us all these things that we want to hear.
[6:50]We have questions like, what does it even mean to be well? Like, what are we, what is the goal here?
[6:56]Yeah. I mean, I think that's kind of the issue with the wellness mystery. And again, the book is really nuanced. It goes into the good, the bad and the whole lot in between.
[7:04]The term wellness, right? It basically means everything that medicine and insurance won't touch. So it's basically nutrition, sleep, relaxation techniques.
[7:13]But because there is no definition of it and because it's so individualized, what I need to feel good is completely different than what you need.
[7:21]It's just evolved into this really ambiguous marketing term that can literally mean anything. It can mean meditation as much as it means activated charcoal toothpaste.
[7:31]And that's how this industry has grown so big because there's no guard rails. And the problem is that it's devolved again comes from good intentions into this hyper consumerist individualist culture that's just bursting with productivity pressures.
[7:47]We've seen more and more women come forward and say, why do I have to eat exactly right do this exact thing and then just buy all this stuff. How is that actually helping me?
[7:57]Because in some cases, it could just add more burdens and women are stressed enough as it is in this country, especially moms.
[8:05]Yes, very true.
[8:07]You don't have to go into the whole science of it. But I have always been against the cleanse mentality.
[8:15]I've never done a cleanse. I've always looked at it questionably like, really are we all doing cleanse?
[8:21]I don't understand like why are you guys only drinking water and lemon and honey for like three days straight. This can't be good. Where's you know, so you put that under a microscope as you do so much else. Tell me what you're
[8:33]aware of where you came out on that. Well, I'm sorry to hear that you're not pure enough. Not pure.
[8:41]But yeah, there is this whole kind of obsession with clean and the problem is that a lot of this doesn't have any or very little scientific evidence.
[8:52]And a lot of times it's just diet culture and disguise. You know, we're not allowed to use the word diet anymore because of the body positivity movement.
[9:00]So all these different subcultures were like, well, I guess we gotta use the term wellness. I guess we need to hire, you know, hide our diet and you need some sort of cockamini cleanse, which again, just adds more pressures to women.
[9:12]But again, you know, a lot of this stuff is rooted in legitimate complaints. A lot of people have legitimate complaints against the medical industry or our food supply.
[9:21]So these things that they feel like can sort of counteract all these things that they don't like. And I understand that appeal. The problem is that, you know, for example, just because there are, again, major issues within our healthcare industry.
[9:35]It doesn't mean alternative medicine has the answer in the same way that just because you might be upset with something that's going on in your gross morale doesn't mean a cleanse is the answer.
[9:45]Again, it's sold to us and it's in every media outlet is repeated all over your Instagram. And so when you see things repeated over and over again, you don't question them, you sort of just take them as fact.
[9:56]And it's not just influencers, the media as well.
[10:00]You know, in the book I go into how many women's magazines
[10:02]pair with these things because they don't check
[10:04]with medical experts.
[10:07]And I was one of them.
[10:08]I'm a former wellness industry reporter.
[10:09]I myself did that.
[10:11]You even talk a lot about skin care.
[10:14]And I like how you sort of dissect all of these different
[10:18]parts of the wellness industry and really tackle them
[10:21]head on.
[10:21]You're reporting skills themselves.
[10:23]Like you're obviously like just ridiculously bright
[10:26]and it's very wonderful.
[10:28]It's just great to be the beneficiary
[10:29]of all of your hard work.
[10:30]That I'm going to take care of and print that out.
[10:33]Deliver to my husband and plastered all over the house
[10:35]that you said I'm very bright.
[10:37]Oh, come on.
[10:38]Seriously, you can just, I mean, not the book that they use.
[10:42]I mean, all that.
[10:42]But when you talked about skin care
[10:44]and I was really interested, I know Greg ran
[10:46]for beauty counter through like family connections in part.
[10:49]But I use beauty counter, but I don't exclusively
[10:52]use beauty counter.
[10:53]I also use like whatever of this should be there.
[10:55]What was that door?
[10:56]And I liked how you questioned.
[10:59]I mean, the claims of that company.
[11:01]And even for Goof, honestly, you just tackle
[11:04]these giant companies and you're like,
[11:06]okay, well, let's really get in there.
[11:08]Are the trace levels of these things
[11:12]in you're not eating your toiletries.
[11:14]Does it really matter how little of a something
[11:16]is in what you're using for your overall health?
[11:20]Yes.
[11:21]And it should be noted that I named beauty counter
[11:24]our most innovative company when I was a fast company
[11:26]magazine.
[11:27]A lot of this book is, again, me as a reporter doing
[11:30]what too many reporters did, which is just taking claims
[11:33]at face value, not questioning them.
[11:36]And basically my awakening to a lot of the things
[11:39]that were sold to Monus are way more complicated
[11:41]than is being sort of delivered to the consumer.
[11:44]So yeah, I did kind of a 180 on beauty counter.
[11:48]And by the way, I love their products as well.
[11:50]I use them.
[11:51]I just take issue with some of the fear mongering
[11:54]that's going on right now.
[11:55]Because it's having unintended effects.
[11:58]It's making people terrified of their products.
[12:01]It's also excluding a whole bunch of communities
[12:03]that can't afford these very pricey products.
[12:06]And you see this a lot within wellness
[12:07]where it's either fear mongering people,
[12:09]like you have to buy our products or something bad
[12:11]is going to have to you and your children.
[12:13]Or it's tied to an aspirational lifestyle.
[12:16]Gupta's is very, very well where you believe
[12:19]if you consume what Gwyneth consumes,
[12:21]you will look like Gwyneth, or it's to show off your
[12:24]whatever it is, but it's these two things
[12:27]that I think can be very, very detrimental.
[12:29]And so my point in that chapter is to say,
[12:32]there are, again, legitimate issues
[12:34]within our beauty supply.
[12:36]But should we be made terrified of our body wash?
[12:40]And what are the consequences of that?
[12:42]Yeah, it's true.
[12:43]You should see my I have a teenage daughter
[12:45]who follows all these skincare people on Instagram
[12:47]or TikTok, and she's like,
[12:50]you can't use these vibes.
[12:51]You have to use muscle or water.
[12:53]You can't use this.
[12:54]You can't.
[12:55]I've been using it forever.
[12:55]I'm fine, but okay, fine.
[12:58]I will use this product anywhere.
[13:00]And they're these giant brands,
[13:02]like it's neutrogena really so bad, you know?
[13:04]I don't, but also think of how much head space
[13:08]that's taking out.
[13:09]Like think of like, you know, I make the joke,
[13:11]why isn't my husband afraid of his deodorant?
[13:14]But every woman I know is terrified of everything.
[13:17]It's not an exaggeration when I say that I know moms
[13:20]were having breakdowns and groceries.
[13:22]And I'm like, what can I buy here?
[13:24]I don't think it's productive.
[13:26]And I think it's to some degree misogynistic.
[13:30]They pray on women specifically moms.
[13:32]I go into the book about a specifically
[13:33]how organics, neck brands, target moms
[13:36]that make them fearful, because they have something
[13:38]to gain, a purchase.
[13:40]And they know that women will respond to it more than that.
[13:43]I'm trying to take the concept of fear mongering
[13:47]and see like how many industries really use this as a tactic.
[13:51]How many can you have a ton, a ton?
[13:53]And I think one of the issues that we're seeing with Lones
[13:56]is that because it's become sort of the industry du jour,
[13:59]a lot of people, a lot of publicists, marketers
[14:02]who used to work in the beauty, fashion,
[14:04]even alcohol industries have all migrated to Lones.
[14:08]So, you know, I've been, you know, a reporter
[14:09]for almost, you know, 15, more than 15 years.
[14:13]A lot of the people who used to pitch me fashion
[14:15]and beauty brands now pitch me supplements and green juices.
[14:19]And so I think the more people are aware
[14:21]that they're being manipulated to some degree,
[14:24]they'll pause before getting on the next big trend
[14:28]or, you know, going all in on some marketing claim.
[14:31]And, you know, I always kind of remind people like,
[14:34]hey, remember eight years ago we were all into bone broth
[14:37]and then it was green juice and then it was like cucumber juice
[14:40]and then it was kombucha, then coconut water
[14:43]and that was chlorophyll.
[14:44]It keeps moving and moving and we're treating health
[14:46]and wellness like fashion fads.
[14:49]And women say, oh yeah, I remember when I was into that.
[14:51]And I'm like, well, you know, why do we keep,
[14:53]you know, migrating from trend to trend?
[14:55]It's because these trends don't deliver on their promises.
[14:59]It's a lot like fad diets.
[15:00]Why do people go from keto to paleo to Atkins?
[15:03]It's because they're unsustainable or they don't deliver.
[15:06]And so they just put their faith in the next best thing.
[15:08]Yeah.
[15:10]I've tried every diet.
[15:11]I feel like for a lot of time.
[15:13]And I actually, I was a weight watcher's leader
[15:16]for a little while, which was fascinating in terms of back
[15:20]in the day.
[15:20]This is a long time ago, way before the rebrand
[15:23]that you talked about in the book.
[15:24]But you know, I wrote in my memoir, like I was so obsessed
[15:29]with my weight watcher's lifestyle for years
[15:31]that I convinced it was an eating disorder after a while.
[15:35]Like I could not eat without counting.
[15:37]And like, anyway, I'm not going to get into that or what,
[15:39]you know, but it is like disordered eating of a kind
[15:43]when like you cannot eat an almond without calculating
[15:46]how many points does it add up to the day?
[15:48]And does it destroy your week?
[15:50]And da, da, da, da, da, da, like, yeah.
[15:51]It's like the amount of space I spent adding it up.
[15:55]And at least I was doing math.
[15:56]You know, that's my favorite place.
[15:59]I am in the same boat.
[16:01]To this day, I cannot have a piece of bread
[16:05]or a sandwich.
[16:06]I'll eat around it, but I will eat ice cream and cookies.
[16:10]I was made terrified of bread when I was in Atkins.
[16:12]And people always say, really, you just,
[16:14]you're about to eat ice cream, but you won't eat the bread.
[16:16]And I'm like, yes, bread is evil.
[16:18]I can't get rid of it.
[16:19]It's, you know, these things stay with us.
[16:22]They get embedded.
[16:23]And that's why, you know, restrictive fad diets can be so harmful.
[16:27]And again, like, what are we doing to women in this country?
[16:30]Why are we driving them crazy?
[16:32]Did you see the, that it was called Admama, right?
[16:35]With the Jill Cardman show, have you ever watched that?
[16:38]I haven't but I heard such a great thing.
[16:40]I love her.
[16:41]She's hilarious and the show was so fantastic,
[16:43]but there was a scene with, I don't know, four to six women
[16:46]like sitting around the table.
[16:47]And the waiter comes over with the bread basket.
[16:51]And he's like, bread ladies.
[16:52]And they're all like, no, Brad.
[16:53]And anyway, I should find incentive.
[16:57]That was the gist of it, but it was much funnier in the show.
[17:01]So in terms of the book part of this whole research journey,
[17:06]how much time it must have taken forever
[17:08]to do all of this research,
[17:10]because you really dive deep into a lot of different things.
[17:12]And then I'm curious about the writing process itself.
[17:15]And also, are you scared of these big companies
[17:18]that you talk about, even though you're not necessarily
[17:19]saying anything bad?
[17:20]But are you afraid at all of what the response will be
[17:25]or has been?
[17:28]Well, I hope that they take it the way I intended it,
[17:32]which is that it's nuanced.
[17:34]And that was my point of it.
[17:35]And it's not saying these are evil companies,
[17:38]although I mean, I'm a pretty critical of goop.
[17:40]But a lot of them have good intentions.
[17:42]I think even Gwyneth oftentimes has good intentions.
[17:45]She's just misguided and refuses to listen
[17:47]to scientists and doctors.
[17:49]But that is such a nice way.
[17:53]You could not have said that any nicer.
[17:55]Yeah.
[17:56]In fact, some of the criticism I got from the book
[17:58]is you should have gone harder.
[18:00]And I don't think so.
[18:01]I think that the reader is smart enough
[18:02]to be presented with some of the evidence
[18:04]and make their own decisions on how to evaluate these sectors.
[18:09]But yeah, it is strange to have been a wellness
[18:12]industry reporter who propped up a lot of these companies
[18:16]and then realized, you know, midway through a career.
[18:20]A lot of this is a based on science.
[18:21]And a lot of this is having unintended effects.
[18:23]And I make the comparison that the way a lot of us
[18:26]treated wellness years ago is the way we thought about
[18:29]social media 15 years ago.
[18:31]We were so excited for Facebook and all these companies.
[18:34]And we just didn't see where it would end up.
[18:36]And so I had to reevaluate these companies.
[18:39]So it's a little bizarre.
[18:40]In terms of the research, a lot of it
[18:42]is based on my research of having been a wellness
[18:45]industry reporter and a health writer.
[18:47]But yeah, this book took me years.
[18:50]And oftentimes I would start out with a presumption
[18:53]and call up a bunch of doctors.
[18:55]And they'd be like, actually, you're completely wrong.
[18:57]And I would have to change the entire chapter
[19:00]that happened a lot.
[19:01]And it was really, really eye opening.
[19:03]And I think throughout the book,
[19:04]you see me being just as shocked as everyone else.
[19:07]I think clean beauty is a perfect example of that
[19:09]in which I would call up a toxicologist
[19:12]and be like, yeah, it's mostly marketing.
[19:14]I'd be like, well, I don't like what he said.
[19:15]And I call up another, same thing, call up another.
[19:17]And I realized it was much more complicated
[19:20]than I ever ever thought.
[19:22]I mean, just to play devil's advocate for a moment,
[19:25]do you that implies you trust the doctors?
[19:27]Do you know, I mean, like you never know.
[19:29]I mean, sometimes I'm like, well,
[19:33]this doctor says this thing,
[19:34]and this doctor says that thing,
[19:36]this doctor, you know, maybe they're trying to sell,
[19:38]X, what, you know, the doctors are also trying
[19:40]to sell a lot of times their own medicines
[19:42]or their prescriptions for different things.
[19:43]Or, I don't know,
[19:44]I'm just saying everyone has an invested interest.
[19:46]Totally.
[19:47]You know, a system.
[19:48]And I also definitely spoke to people
[19:49]who said the opposite, but I will say this.
[19:53]I don't think you should take advice from any just one,
[19:55]I mean, I think you should keep us to work with their doctors,
[19:57]but there's one, there's a difference between
[19:58]trusting just one doctor.
[20:00]And then actually looking at sort of medical guidelines
[20:04]or is that sector society guidelines?
[20:06]Yes.
[20:07]So for example, sure, you could be like trust a doctor,
[20:09]well, what if your doctor's doctor was, right?
[20:11]But if the entire cardiology association says something,
[20:16]you should probably listen to that consensus of doctors.
[20:19]So for example, what 80% of the toxicology association
[20:24]says that EWG is dealing with fear mongering,
[20:27]I'm gonna take that to heart
[20:28]because that's more than one toxicologist.
[20:30]You're right.
[20:31]I knew I should have taken it.
[20:32]I knew I shouldn't have played demos.
[20:34]I have to give it to you.
[20:34]No, no, I appreciate it.
[20:36]But the other thing is that I was a devil's advocate.
[20:39]You're saying you're right.
[20:40]I gave a lot of airtime to these companies.
[20:43]I interviewed their founders.
[20:44]I interviewed their staff.
[20:46]So I feel like I actually have a really good balance
[20:49]of both sides.
[20:51]And again, it's not trashing many of these companies.
[20:53]I know.
[20:54]It's just saying it's a lot more than people realize.
[20:57]And they're not being given the full information.
[20:59]And they deserve it.
[21:00]Consumers aren't stupid.
[21:01]Women are in stupid.
[21:02]Treat them like adults.
[21:03]Give them the full information.
[21:04]Not to mention how much disposable income people spend
[21:08]on so many of these things, that comes at a cost.
[21:12]Not just the finance, but are they giving up by investing in this?
[21:15]Right.
[21:16]It's wasted time and money.
[21:18]But in some cases, if you rely on a supplement
[21:21]because you think you have a adrenal fatigue,
[21:23]that stands the way of real therapeutic treatments.
[21:26]You have might have a real condition
[21:27]that can have a real treatment.
[21:29]And that can actually lead to adverse effects.
[21:32]So it's not always harmless.
[21:34]And it's not just a matter of like, oh,
[21:36]I wasted a couple bucks here.
[21:37]It could be dangerous.
[21:38]Jim.
[21:40]OK.
[21:41]What are you taking on next?
[21:43]That's such a good question.
[21:45]Oh, God.
[21:47]I'll say one thing that I don't recommend writing a book
[21:50]that has to deal with so many sub-sectors.
[21:52]The book took so long because I had to deal with nutrition,
[21:56]but also supplements.
[21:58]And spirituality, it really took years to do this book.
[22:01]So I'm like, the next book has to be like one topic.
[22:06]That's funny.
[22:07]Well, it was really eye-opening as a consumer.
[22:10]And someone in this sort of market who
[22:13]has been marketed to and has adopted some,
[22:17]but not all of the things.
[22:18]Like most women, a certain age or I don't know.
[22:22]I'm just like in the, I'm in this bucket.
[22:24]And for me, I found it very, very interesting.
[22:28]And eye-opening and just intellectually fascinating.
[22:33]And it changes the way I see our world right now,
[22:37]which is like one of the best things a book can do.
[22:40]I hope so.
[22:40]Well, I'm so glad you enjoyed it.
[22:41]And thank you for having me.
[22:43]OK.
[22:43]Thanks for coming.
[22:44]OK.
[22:45]Bye-bye.
[22:46]Bye, thank you.
[22:46]Thank you.
[22:49]Thanks for listening to this episode of Mom's Don't Have Time
[22:51]to Read Books.
[22:52]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebiowans.
[22:55]And at moms don't have time to read books.
[22:57]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowans.com
[23:00]and sign up for my virtual book club
[23:02]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[23:04]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[23:07]for the Sound Editing.
[23:08]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[23:10]for providing this fantastic intro and outroom music.