Sarah Pinborough, INSOMNIA: A Novel
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[0:58]Sarah Pinborough is the author of Insomnia, a novel. Sarah is a New York Times best-selling author,
[1:03]and Sunday Times number one, and internationally best-selling author, who is published in over 25 territories worldwide.
[1:10]Having published more than 25 novels across various genres, she also has recent books, including
[1:16]Behind Her Eyes, which was a Netflix movie, Cross Her Heart for UK Television, and 13 Minutes with Netflix.
[1:24]Sarah was the 2009 winner of the British Fantasy Award for Best Short Story, and also the 2010 and 2014 winner of the British Fantasy Award for Best Novella.
[1:33]She has been shortlisted four times for Best Novel, and is also a screenwriter who is written for the BBC.
[1:40]She's currently working on three TV projects and the film adaptation of The Death House.
[1:44]Her latest novel Dead to Her is a dark and twisty sexy tale of hidden secrets and revenge in high society savannah,
[1:50]and has been sold for TV in the US. And now, of course, Insomnia. Sarah lives in the historic town
[1:56]of Stony Stratford, the home of the cock and bull story with her dog, Ted.
[2:00]Welcome, Sarah. Thank you so much for coming on mom's. Don't have time to read books.
[2:04]You'll discuss Insomnia, a novel. Thank you so much for having me. This is so timely because
[2:10]I feel like I'm often up in the middle of the night, and this is something that we all sort of
[2:14]have in common. Everyone I talk to, it's like my whole team, I'm like, I was up from two to five.
[2:18]I was up at four, and I was up for dinner, and I couldn't fall asleep, and there's always
[2:22]something. And it's always women. It's always women as well. I mean, I was in the park this
[2:26]morning with my dog, and I saw a woman who lives on my street, and she said to me, oh, four o'clock
[2:31]this morning. And I was like, yeah, I was four o'clock yesterday. I managed to half-five today.
[2:36]Whole street. We might as well just meet up and all the women and just have a cup of tea at five.
[2:41]Because we're all awake. It's crazy. It is crazy. I do have to say my husband has terrible
[2:46]insomnia, so it's not good. He's got one case. Thank you. I just fake him at the team.
[2:53]The one man, although I have to say he doesn't really talk about it, which means I really
[2:57]should not be talking about it by myself on this podcast. But I feel like women are much more
[3:01]likely to wake up and talk about it than men. They'll just be like, okay, off to do whatever.
[3:06]These are terrible generalizations, but some men have a pride in it as well. It's like, oh, I only
[3:11]slept four hours last night. And I'm like, wow, hey, I would rather have seven.
[3:19]Well, I love how you take this very common thing and fictional. I make it part of the backdrop of
[3:24]this story. Well, not even the backdrop. How insomnia can lead to madness, essentially. And like,
[3:30]what does that mean? I feel like I can relate to it when you're made. I can research it.
[3:35]It's crazy. Like, I mean, I'm black steep, but I never go kind of completely without for days. But
[3:40]people worry about having no water or food, but no sleep or kilya faster than anything else.
[3:46]You know, within three days, you're hallucinating. I mean, that's crazy, isn't it?
[3:50]It's true. Yeah. Like, obviously, you want to try it, doesn't it? I know. I remember being a kid
[3:55]and staying up for 24 hours. And then, you know, like, as when I was like nine or 10, a friend
[4:00]friend of mine, and we had a sleepover and we did it. And that was hard work at nine. So I
[4:05]don't know how trying to do three days with me. I think I'd pass out. Although I have to say when I
[4:09]I was going to sleep last night, I told my husband, he's in LA right now. And I was like,
[4:13]all right, well, I've now been up for 20 hours. So I think I'm going to go to sleep.
[4:17]Then you find your heart kind of kicks in as if to say, okay, we're staying away then.
[4:22]Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[4:26]Can I read this one passage, which totally like summarizes my head space where all of these
[4:31]things happen. It's just a one of many great descriptions. But I put the kettle on and make a
[4:37]a camera male team. Maybe I should put vodka in it, like Michelle suggested. I stare at the
[4:41]booze cupboard for a moment too long, more tempted than I should be before turning away. She drank when
[4:46]she didn't sleep, meaning character's mom. The kettle clicks off and I pour and then glance at the
[4:51]back door once more as the tea steeps. It is locked, isn't it? Yes. Yes. I check again. This is ridiculous.
[4:56]This is I stopped myself before the word crazy. This is not crazy. This is a blip too much of my mind.
[5:01]Maybe it's even hormonal. Start of the run up to the change. I roll my head around on my shoulders
[5:06]and then sip the hot drink. I look at the clock. I've passed you creeping closer to Monday morning
[5:11]already. We've all been there. So maybe I should back up so you can tell listeners the plot of
[5:21]insomnia. Okay. Well, I'm terrible at this. I'm going to apologize to your listeners in advance.
[5:25]But it's basically the story of a woman called Emma who is a very successful business woman. She's
[5:30]a lawyer and she's married to a stay at home dad and she has a 17 year old daughter in a
[5:37]five year old son. And on the surface, everything is perfect. But you know, she's pedaling hard under
[5:42]the water and is, you know, trying to manage everything. Her husband's getting a little bit
[5:46]unhappy with being at home all the time, problems with the kids. And as she approaches her 40th birthday,
[5:52]she stops sleeping, which for anybody else would be a blip. But for Emma, her own mother stopped
[5:58]sleeping about two weeks before her 40th birthday. And it's something really, really terrible.
[6:04]And she always sort of implied to Emma that the same thing would happen to her. So Emma is now in this
[6:09]sort of cycle of, am I going crazy or is someone messing with me? And, you know, is it possible
[6:14]that both things are happening? Yeah. So she kind of is the ultimate sort of unreliable narrator
[6:19]because even she doesn't trust herself. So yeah, it's kind of I've tried to put in a couple of,
[6:28]I've tried to make serious points out of a couple of tongue-in-cheek things I have with women,
[6:33]which for me, I mean, I just have 50. So I'm sort of a decade ahead of Emma. But women of kind of,
[6:39]we grow up with this fear of turning 40 and getting older is if, you know, it's a condition to feel
[6:45]like this is some big change at eyes on it's just a number. And also we have a real fear of turning
[6:50]into our mothers, which I think is also kind of weird because until year 12, your mom's the
[6:56]center of your universe. And then suddenly you're kicking back in this poor woman who's done
[7:02]everything for you becomes the last person in the world you want to be like, which is very strange.
[7:07]So I kind of have taken those two themes and then later on in a sort of more serious way with them.
[7:13]So true. I feel like I'm 46. And so I was afraid of 40. And now, although not 100% afraid
[7:20]because my mother had always told me that like her life got good in her 40s. And so I was always
[7:26]holding it. I'm like, what's going to happen in my 40s? And actually my 40s have been great. But
[7:29]I will say I look at pictures and people are like, even other people are like, you guys look like
[7:34]twins. And I'm like, no, all you hear yourself saying something sounds like something your mom
[7:41]would say. And you're like, no, I'm much younger and freer. And you know, I stopped saying like
[7:46]judgmental things. That's my mother's beakage. You know, my mother has like a younger looking face.
[7:53]I feel like at this point, then I do because I love her. So I mean, not, she's just blessed. I
[7:58]think. Anyway, it's very funny as we circled the age drain here together. You did have one little
[8:06]passage and then I'll stop reading, but you said 40 has always loomed like a specter in my life more
[8:11]so more. So I can't read this case in point. You've got vodka in that team. I have no vodka, but
[8:20]forgot. I can't read my glasses or no on 40 has always loomed like a specter in my life more so
[8:26]for me than for Phoebe because Phoebe was never called the mad child by our mother. It was me,
[8:30]she'd whisper to you sometimes that I'd go mad like her, hissed in my face as her fingers dug
[8:35]too tightly into my arms that I had the bad blood to ran in our family. That's like making
[8:44]all other families seem quite normal. Okay. So you took things that were going on in your life.
[8:50]You turned them into fiction. You've written many books. Best selling author. How did this whole
[8:55]thing start? Take me back. Oh, God way back. Go back in the 23. I think I kind of always, I think
[9:03]anybody who writes for a living has always been a writer from childhood because I think it's the
[9:10]kind of job. If you're lucky, you have success. And if you're very lucky, you can make a living.
[9:16]But a lot of people, it doesn't work that way, you know, but they still write books. So I think
[9:20]it's got to be in your blood to do it. So I always kind of wrote short stories and bits and pieces,
[9:25]but it was only when I was about 30. I sort of sat down to write a whole book and I wrote a
[9:30]horror novel because I grew up with Stephen King being kids who you had on. And you know, I grew up
[9:35]on sort of horror, the pan, book of hope, ghost stories and all these kind of things. I really
[9:39]like, I was always scared of the dark. I never slept as a child. So I started out writing horror for
[9:44]the American market for a company called Leisure that are no longer in existence, but they were a
[9:50]mass market paperback publisher. So I kind of learned a few things there. And then I've just
[9:56]sort of continued on. I mean, that was nearly 20.
[10:00]years ago now. That's crazy. I was looking at you, you know, and then obviously behind your eyes
[10:06]came along and that sort of changed everything for me, you know. So tell me about that. What was that like?
[10:12]Well, it was a really interesting journey because I was contracted to, I was with two other
[10:18]publishers, Orion and Quirkus, and I owed each a book. And I was at this big writers convention
[10:25]in London at the O2 Center. So it was really massive. And I was hearing people getting really
[10:30]good deals and stuff. And I've never been a person to be envious about the deals because it's such
[10:34]a roller, you know, swings around about one person's success does not stop anybody else, you know.
[10:38]But I was thinking, oh, God, am I ever going to have my moment? Is my shelf life coming to an end?
[10:44]Because if you're sitting in that, if you're not getting paid enough, you don't get the marketing
[10:47]so you don't get, you know how it goes. It's like, you know, that the machine has to work in your
[10:51]favor. And I thought, well, I'm getting these kind of mid-list deals. So I'm never going to break
[10:55]out. And they're going to stop buying my books. And then there was an editor at Harper
[11:00]Collins called Natasha Barden, who I knew socially. And she texted me and she said, do you want to
[11:05]come for dinner with Joe Abercrombie and a couple of people tonight? And I was like, well, I think
[11:09]I'm going to go home. I'm, you know, a bit tired. She said, well, why don't we meet for a coffee now?
[11:13]So we met and obviously had a beer, not a coffee. And she then said, we want to publish your
[11:19]up Collins. We don't think you'll be in published right blah, blah, blah. So for me,
[11:23]this was like, dream come true. But I owed these other books. I had to buy my way out of one
[11:28]which was not pleasant experience. But I said to her, I haven't really got anything. I haven't
[11:31]gotten an idea. And she said, well, she said, come up with something that I can take to the publishing
[11:37]meeting in 10 days. She said, it doesn't have to be brilliant, which means it has to be,
[11:43]you know, like, that she's not going to sell something that's terrible. She's giving me this
[11:47]really rubbish idea. So I was like, oh, God. So I went away and I wanted to write about affairs.
[11:54]I was in my early 40s. And I want to try about dynamics of long-term relationships and
[12:01]that all the worst parts of love, if you know what I mean, because we always talk about love
[12:05]is this great thing. But actually, women get murdered because of obsessive love partners, people,
[12:10]you know, and men as well, you know, people get murdered over love. And it's not always a good
[12:14]thing. So I started playing around with a couple of secrets, because I've been reading all these
[12:18]gone-go kind of books and really getting into it. Sorry, I taught very fast and I do watch
[12:22]it. No, I love it. Could be cut off signal. No, no, no, don't cut off.
[12:27]So then I was like, oh, well, that maybe they've murdered someone in the past.
[12:31]I was looking at all this and I just thought, wow, it's not that original, you know, there's nothing
[12:36]in here that says that it's mine, you know, it could be any number of fillers. And then I just,
[12:42]I just, the ending, well, actually what I did was, I mean, this makes me sound like an alcoholic
[12:46]and I don't actually drink very much. But I was, it would have been a really bad week. I've been
[12:50]looking after my friend's dog and I'd have it put down. Another friend of mine who'd been dying
[12:55]died. And I'm trying to come up with this book and I was just like, I've got nothing. So I went to
[12:59]the park, got a glass of wine and thought, it's my big opportunity and I've already blown it.
[13:04]And then I just got the ending. I sort of started to think about a murder and then I thought,
[13:09]ah, this could work. So yeah, and then when I pitched it, they were originally going to publish it
[13:15]under the fantasy imprint. And then they said, no, this pitches, we can play this as a straight thriller
[13:22]and sell it as a straight thriller and then let people be surprised by it, which did work. So,
[13:26]I mean, something, it was a novel hate, but yeah, it did work. Amazing. But then how did you feel
[13:32]when that took off and like tell me about that? It was crazy because obviously, you know,
[13:38]things like New York Times and Sunday Times, that never been in my kind of, I never looked,
[13:43]I was never expected to be on those lists. So it was very strange and very exciting and great.
[13:49]And then obviously, we sold the TV to left bank and that's all gone really well. I'm writing in
[13:54]so many of the left bankers. Oh my gosh, no way. Yeah. So it did, I mean, that book did change my life
[13:59]really, but I'm glad it wasn't my first book. You know, like you see people who have that big success
[14:06]with the first book and they think this is publishing rather than actually, most people are
[14:12]getting like 20,000 for a book, 30,000 tops, you know, it's a nice figure. And then that, you know,
[14:19]I found it fascinating. The shift in things like for years, I'd been going to festivals and
[14:25]I'd pay my own way and I'd pay my hotel. Or even if they were paying for part of it after
[14:29]a little while, I got myself there, I got myself to the event because I'm growing up. And then suddenly
[14:34]they're like, oh, do you need me to come on the train with you? So I'm not your grandma. I can get a
[14:39]train by myself, you know, but suddenly it's like when you don't need them to give you the money,
[14:44]everyone wants to give you the money for things. And I kind of am like, with all due respect,
[14:50]people who've got a best seller don't necessarily need the publisher to pay the train fair,
[14:54]but the person for runs down the ladder does. So I'm kind of like,
[15:00]Bakes should maybe shift. I know it doesn't work that way because I want to floss you and make
[15:03]you feel special, but it's also crazy. You spend all those years scrimping to go places and then suddenly
[15:09]when you don't really need to go, people want to pay interest. That's the world.
[15:16]That's my little menopause or rant for the book. No, no, I like it. I like it. I actually, I started
[15:20]a publishing company. And so our books are coming out in February and I've been trying it because you're
[15:25]not busy enough. Anyway, I'm trying to flavor different elements. And that's a really interesting
[15:30]point. Like everybody should be treated kind of equally. That's yeah. I mean, I get it. If you've
[15:35]got some, you know, if you're publishing, I don't know, in England, I always say in Rankin,
[15:40]the poor man. I've just used him as an example because, you know, he's at every crime
[15:43]professor and he's really successful, a little child, someone like that. You know, they're getting paid
[15:48]a fortune anyway. And I kind of think, does it really matter if you have to pay 100 pounds for
[15:52]your train fair? Where is that person who only got paid 5,000 for their book? That's a lot of money
[15:58]to pay and then hotels and, you know, it's kind of crazy. Good point. I'm going to stew over that.
[16:06]So aside from drinking heavily, what do you like to do? What do you like to do when you're not
[16:11]writing? Well, the problem is, I mean, I've got a dog called Ted and he takes up quite a lot of time.
[16:18]What kind of dog? He's a Romanian rescue. He looks like a fat fox. He was a lot of hard work,
[16:23]but he's very, very sweet, lovely dog. I mean, I think I don't know about you. You're obviously
[16:28]very busy. But the pandemic kind of slowed everything down, you know, and you just kind of
[16:33]I worked and walked my dog. And one, so I was 50 in March. And I, and I think there is that thing
[16:38]when you hit a decade number, like 40 or 50 or 30 that you reevaluate a bit. So I've been living
[16:44]in my little lovely town called Stony Stratford, but I have now just taken on an apartment in London
[16:50]for two years. My time because I used to live in London and I kind of miss, I mean, not in central
[16:56]London. It's in Chisick. So it's kind of West London. It's leafy suburb. But it's got the buzz.
[17:01]It's got lots of places, lots of things to do. So I'm going to, I need to try and do more
[17:06]because I do just work and you can get in that rut of it being, especially if you don't have
[17:12]that ever has been, I don't have kids. So there's no one to pull you out of it,
[17:15]that you have to go and do other things. So yeah, so I've decided that 50 and also I broke my back
[17:23]last year. Oh, no, which was a bit boring. But it just did make me reevaluate things a little bit.
[17:29]And so now that I'm less wobbly on my feet, yeah, I'm trying to, I think, well, you know, maybe I'll
[17:34]go on. I might meet some handsome man and park and maybe write a wrong call after that.
[17:39]Oh, there you go. So this is not mad of history.
[17:44]Romcom or your mysteries. There we go. Yeah, that's fun. Wait, how did you break your back?
[17:49]Oh, it was really exciting. I was carrying a vacuum cleaner and I fell over backwards.
[17:54]Oh, no, I hit the wall with this vacuum cleaner in a box and I landed on my bottom holding
[18:00]this box and my spine just kind of concertina. Oh, my gosh. It's sad. Yeah, that's nice.
[18:07]Yeah, that is not glamorous. I think you need a new story. I know. I do try. I did tell someone
[18:12]I did at skiing and they just looked to me and laughed and said, you know, you're in your life.
[18:17]I'm quite a lazy person. I've got to be careful with what lie I come up for with that one.
[18:23]It's really funny. Oh my gosh. What about reading? Do you like to read? Yes. I read and I watch a lot.
[18:28]I've really got into watching a lot of movies and TV. I think because I'm working more at
[18:32]movies and TV at the moment, but yes, reading that vanished in the pandemic. You know, I used to
[18:39]always read and then it just like my concentration just went. And now I am getting back into it.
[18:46]You're going to ask me something I've read recently. My brain's going to ask you.
[18:49]No, I haven't read like I don't even you must get this. You get sent a lot of groups
[18:55]and they're very similar after a little while. And sometimes you just think, okay, this is probably
[18:59]a really great thriller, but all I've done is really thrillers for like three months. I need to
[19:04]stop and read something else. So I'm trying to vary my reading a little bit more. Like I've just
[19:11]bought some historical fiction because I used to love reading historical fiction and I haven't
[19:16]read any for ages. And I'm reading a lot of anthologies so you can dip in and out. I read, what's
[19:22]I read that I really loved last. I read the new route where I really enjoyed. And then what did
[19:29]I finish the other day that I was raving about on the internet? I can't remember
[19:34]Menopause Brain. It goes in. It comes out. It goes in. It comes out. Laura Pursell's new one.
[19:40]Set in Victorian theatre. Yeah, it's like a ghost story, ghost story slash thriller,
[19:46]which was really interesting to read something that was a bit less
[19:50]who's killed my baby or my husband or whatever. You know, like sometimes it's psychological
[19:54]thrillers. It was slightly different. So especially when I'm writing one, I don't always want
[20:00]uh, read one, you know, because you get like, no, that's like, oh, God, this one's really good,
[20:04]mine's really rubbish.
[20:08]That's funny. I'm reading an anthology now too. And I feel like I've been so tired lately,
[20:12]that it's, it's great. But then I read one essay and then I'm like, oh, well, I know I need to
[20:15]read the next one. Yeah. So then I end up reading just as much as I would have read anything.
[20:20]Have you read, there's a book called Eight Detectives? No, it's Alex Pavese. It's really
[20:27]clever. And it's eight into over, well, it's short stories, but there's a story going between
[20:34]them all. It's what it's really, really, really clever. It was quite a big hit here. I'm not sure
[20:40]the paper facts out yet, but it was really good. So it kind of mashes up the idea of an anthology
[20:45]and uh, novel. So you can do that thing of reading. But it was really clever.
[20:50]Like say it again, eight strangers. No, eight detectives. Eight detectives. This is my brain today.
[20:54]So we're doing that with our brain seeing information for 30 seconds. Eight detectives. Maybe
[20:59]now that I said it out loud, I'll remember. Yeah, a detective. The anthology I'm reading is the actress
[21:05]Zozia Mamet. It's, I don't think that's even how you pronounce it. But anyway, she got all these
[21:09]people to write about food and feelings, which I'm interested in. I am a big eater of my feelings.
[21:16]Max and eater of my feelings. Yes. As am I. And so anyway, it's really interesting. And
[21:23]it has a couple of, it has recipes, but it's, you know, people breaking up at dinner and
[21:29]well, it's really good. It's them. I'm really enjoying the different perspectives and feeling a little
[21:34]less crazy perhaps myself. And that's always good. That's always how it's always nice.
[21:39]While eating a doughnut, reading it.
[21:43]I'm trying intermittent fasting right now, which is all right.
[21:46]No. Yeah. I try and do that too. And it's
[21:49]I'm done for, I'm on like day 10. Let's see how long I can pull this. You can't wait that
[21:53]you did this 16, eight. Are you doing that? I'm not even like measuring it. I'm just like
[21:58]eating dinner and then I'm not eating again till like 12, 12, 30. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just not being
[22:04]crazy. Like really is there a difference between like 8 p.m. and 9 p.m. Maybe, but whatever. I'm
[22:08]just snacking at night anymore. So for me, like, it's not that I'm not at night. It's not like
[22:13]chocolate chip cookies. I'll be fine. It's not eight or nine. It's like, I don't know if you
[22:17]ever saw. We had a show over here, which was one of my favorite things ever called absolutely
[22:21]fabulous. I've heard it. And it's these two women that very funny. One of them, she comes and says
[22:26]and she's on this diet where she's eating weird things. And the daughter just looks at her and the
[22:31]daughter's very sensible and she goes, mother, just eat less and move more. And the mom turns
[22:38]darling, if it was that easy, everyone would do it. But it's so true. This is like, stop snacking.
[22:48]They make it sound easy. I know. It's so true. It's so true. It's all about your head space. It's all
[22:53]about like, am I really motivated to do this right now? Because if I'm not, then I could try 100 things
[22:58]and then we're going to work. And if I just didn't be looking at the computer. I just like,
[23:02]today, I spent a lot of time looking at cake on delivery and then texting my best friend saying,
[23:07]I wanted cake. And then she orders the cake. And he's the cake. And I'm still just looking at
[23:11]the pictures of it. And she's like, stop telling me a back cake. What is delivery room?
[23:17]Like a food delivery room? Oh my gosh. Yes. Delivery is everything. They do like super markets,
[23:22]restaurants. You just get there's like thousands of like my area, which is quite small. There's like
[23:30]maybe 150 places. And you just say what you want. And they go and get it.
[23:33]There she is. It's called post mates here. Yeah. Same thing. Yeah. Basically, I never heard of
[23:39]delivery room. But there you go. The cilla takes all my back and nothing. Okay. Well, thank you, Sarah.
[23:46]This has been a blast. Thank you for making my own insomnia. I feel a little less problematic.
[23:52]And all of that. I hope you have fun in London. And I would love to get a drink at some point
[23:56]in real life. If you ever, I'm back. You never know about me. You know, definitely. It would be great
[24:02]fun. Okay. I'm still in awe of your study. Thank you. Thank you. And this too could be yours.
[24:07]You just have to be rich. Your books. You know, you have not got to show you mine is way too messy.
[24:14]Oh, I won't even. I won't be. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. All right. Take
[24:19]me. Bye. Bye. Bye.
[24:22]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books. Don't forget to
[24:26]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for
[24:31]my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom
[24:37]every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[24:41]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outroom music.