Maira Kalman, WOMEN HOLDING THINGS

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[0:58]Myra Kalman is the author and illustrator of women holding things

[1:02]She illustrated William Strunk Jr.'s classic the elements of style and is the author of my favorite things

[1:08]principles of uncertainty and and the pursuit of happiness

[1:12]Myra is also the author illustrator of numerous children's books like the book cake

[1:17]Which my husband gave to my son and her artwork has graced a dozen covers of the New Yorker

[1:22]Her watches, clocks, accessories, and paperweights have been featured at the Museum of Modern Art store

[1:26]She lives in New York City. Myra is like a really really big deal. You should definitely listen

[1:31]Welcome Myra. Thanks so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss

[1:36]Women holding things this book is so moving on so many levels and also so visually beautiful given its

[1:43]many illustrations and the combination of text and language and color and all the rest

[1:49]Tell me about your decision to to do this book in

[1:53]Pantheon of your many projects and productions

[1:58]We're doing the pandemic. My son and I were upstate with his very tolerant wife also and

[2:04]We decided to make little booklets self-published that would raise money for organizations and for for causes that we believed in

[2:11]And one of the booklets was women holding things a little one a little a 20 64 page pamphlet

[2:16]And the idea just held it just felt you know important

[2:20]And I am clearly engaged and obsessed with my family with my history

[2:27]the women in my family and then

[2:29]The women all over in my life and you know and fictional and real. Well, you woven

[2:35]Yeah, as you said historical figures like say's on and other figures

[2:39]But also your own family members and you tell one story about your aunts who are twins. Tell me about that

[2:47]And it's my dear mother-in-law and it's funny because the story some of them are

[2:53]Maybe you could say private. Yeah, or I don't want to use the word secret

[2:57]So yes, one of the women holding grudges is my mother-in-law and her twin sister who

[3:03]Clearly were you know and had an antipathy to each other for their whole lives

[3:08]And then is the story of all of them were retrails and as I mentioned of Casa Blanca like yes

[3:13]You know situations they were Hungarian which explains a lot in and of itself very very beautiful women

[3:19]So that is one way to hold you know

[3:21]There is the holding a grudge which is actually

[3:24]Probably every one of us hold some kind of grudge, but we won't we won't linger there

[3:30]That section was interesting too as it talks about love and finding love even at age 90 and

[3:37]Can you talk a little bit about about that and how people died in different people's arms and

[3:43]Right such a sweet story

[3:45]That's the same story

[3:46]But that sense of you know as we're as we're getting older

[3:49]So of us are getting older that feeling of you know

[3:52]What's important and what is meaningful and what do we hold?

[3:55]What do you really want to hold in your life and and it changes of course and and it flows and there's you know

[4:01]There's a balance of things

[4:02]But basically what you want to hold I think is your love and your work and whatever however that's defined and

[4:09]And your sanity what's

[4:11]In the case of Virginia wolf you know it didn't didn't work that well

[4:14]But you want to hold on to your sense of optimism. I really like this

[4:19]notion of holding on to things when so much of the narrative around women is about all the things that we are juggling

[4:25]Right it makes it sound like we're constantly dropping things or that it's it's unentered like that

[4:31]We're trying to hold too much or we can't do it and your book is a celebration of the fact that

[4:36]No, we've got this and we're holding so much and it's really okay

[4:39]We don't have to be circus acts like this is life and this is beautiful

[4:43]It's a nice wee full while you know, I mean the sense of

[4:47]Doing many things and and having to take care of so many different things

[4:52]And I say it's just utterly exhausting and you know the common thread of everybody I talked to is it just they're completely exhausted

[4:59]So you know, how do you balance that again with just focusing

[5:04]In very specifically on what you're doing at the moment and what you're doing that really means something

[5:09]And there's a lot of noise that you kind of have to get rid of

[5:12]Can I just read the last couple of pages when you talk specifically about this and you write and of course these are

[5:17]Absolutely beautiful illustrations which people listening can't see but you'll have to just go by the book

[5:22]Objects around us hold our attention in our love. It is hard work to hold everything and it never ends

[5:28]You may be exhausted from holding things and be disheartened

[5:32]And even weep if you are very emotional

[5:34]Which could be anyone on any day with good reason

[5:38]But then there is the next moment and the next day and hold on

[5:42]You have to show the photo you have to show the painting of the girl

[5:45]I mean hold on also. There's this very kind of a girl with a scowl on her face

[5:51]Clearly unhappy about something holding a bunch of balloons. Yes, and that's the joke

[5:56]You can't be some kind of happy go lucky single of the time. Yeah, so you know we suffer

[6:03]Did you paint these?

[6:05]To go along with like what was the order? Did you have these already in your sort of back closet?

[6:10]Or did you paint them all afresh for this project or what most of them are new for this project?

[6:15]And then there are some that I just

[6:17]Can't resist using and I and I have in other projects and I and I bring them into the book

[6:22]So it's a mix but mostly new and mostly a desire to explore what it means to paint

[6:28]And to use color and how that expresses the emotion and I'm very lucky to be able to

[6:34]Write and paint and we know when the painting is

[6:37]Not sufficient. I can write and vice versa. So I think that's pretty great

[6:43]I can kind of jump back and forth and it's really it's a little bit like writing music and writing the lyrics and the and the

[6:49]You know composing the music to there is a fluidity about that that goes back and forth and everything is just snippets that I find

[6:57]From my life and from waking up in the morning and not knowing what I'm gonna do

[7:01]I mean, I kind of know

[7:04]Not completely accidentally make this beautiful book called women holding things that I was doing it

[7:11]But yeah, I mean, that's it's actually a wonderful thing of the not knowing

[7:14]I mean, I think if that's something that I think about a lot like what I

[7:17]Obviously, we all don't know a tremendous amount and we're aware of it because we're bombarded all the time

[7:24]So it's kind of amazing to say

[7:26]I don't know but to be curious and to kind of have a certain way of wandering around and looking at the world

[7:32]Which is what I do

[7:33]So I really do wake up in the morning of course as you know and have coffee and read the obits and then go on my merry way

[7:40]What's the matter? You've been reading the obits

[7:43]No, that that sense of I don't know what I'm gonna see during the day

[7:47]But I know I'm going to see

[7:48]Extraordinary things and I photograph and and collect the images that kind of that hit my heart and and that I fall in love with

[7:56]I love that the images that hit my heart. That's cool. Cool. It's the wrong word. It's beautiful

[8:03]You wrote about this concept of time as well. Can I read one more paragraph?

[8:08]He said my mother would ask us what is the most important thing?

[8:11]We knew that the correct answer was time

[8:14]You could say that my mother lost a great deal of time to an unhappy marriage

[8:17]But how unhappy was it?

[8:18]Shakespearean level and of the mill I'm happy and possible to say

[8:21]I can't ask her because she is no longer alive

[8:24]But she ultimately left my father and found her time finding time is all we want to do

[8:29]Once you find time you want more time and more time in between that time

[8:33]There can never be enough time and you can never hold on to it. It is so strange

[8:38]We live and then we die so unutterably strange that consumes

[8:44]I mean, I can't imagine that that doesn't consume everybody

[8:46]They duality of we're alive and then at one point

[8:49]We're not going to be and that the more that our mortality is a driver obviously on many levels of what we do

[8:57]So it either it either as I say stops me my tracks and makes me freeze

[9:04]Or propels me into

[9:06]Wonderful activity and I've accepted the fact that both are

[9:10]True and valid and part of the day

[9:13]There's the we can't have one without the other. You know, you can't have the the joy without the the sorrow and and so

[9:20]Sometimes frozen and sometimes jumping

[9:23]Well, I do feel there's you know this I personally feel this sense of time all the time

[9:28]I mean, I'm constantly feel like the hourglass is is pouring pouring through and how can I get

[9:35]All the things done in today that I need to do before that day runs out and you know that knowing of course that at any moment

[9:42]It all could end right so what can I do like what I feel good today if this was it like what I feel I don't know

[9:48]So I I don't know I kind of envy people who don't have this top of mind all the time

[9:54]I can't believe that they exist, but they do I know they do yeah

[10:00]But I, you know, I don't leave the house without making my bed and making sure the place looks reasonably good. So I won't be embarrassed in case I never return. I mean, I don't want to be that morbid, but that, but okay, why not be that more.

[10:13]I totally relate to that. I can totally relate everywhere I go. I'm like, okay, but would anyone know that I'm here in this random coffee shop. I didn't tell it. What gave there's an explosion here. How long would it take like I'm always going backwards. It's terrible. But anyway, that's true. I do that too.

[10:28]I said, I'm on the subway and I think somebody's just sort of turned to me and you know, kill me. And I think, oh, okay, that's that's not bad. No, I actually think that that idea of how you end.

[10:40]And then if you have this kind of unexpected demise and hopefully you've had a very long and happy life, then you think, okay, that's that's not bad, but I don't know if that.

[10:51]Okay, well, we can transition to something particularly like equally horrific, which is your mentions of the Holocaust here in your own family and what's happened, which of course gives context to this attitude, perhaps our worldview, this collective loss and your family in particular. And of course for all Jewish people, the sort of sense of that everybody's life was going a certain way.

[11:16]catastrophe on such a massive scale can happen at any moment that nobody saw coming except for little signs. And so there's groundwork laid prior to this, you know, sort of cultural awareness, right, that anything can change and life is not set.

[11:32]And you write about it. You say like, you know what happened, of course, you have heard it a thousand times before they all perished shot and dumped into a mess grave. And this is about your father's family.

[11:42]How do you hold on to that narrative and yet like how do we hold on to the memory of all of those lost and still move forward.

[11:52]That's the inexplicable mystery of everything that we do move, we do move forward, we do move ahead, we do find humor, we do laugh all the time and tell stories because otherwise, you know, otherwise.

[12:08]I don't know what forces within us, what mechanism within us has made that possible. But it is. And so we, you know, so as I say, we carry the inexplicable and honorable sorrow of personal losses in our lives, nobody's exempt from tragedy and the sense of the wonder and the awe of it all constantly colliding.

[12:33]We muddle. I don't know. The answer to the answer is once again, I do not know, but I'm happy that we do have those forces in us.

[12:42]All holding on to questions is still something to hold on to you had a page towards the beginning woman holding book, which I'm holding up again, which is absolutely beautiful this illustration of a woman's lounging on this green.

[12:56]She has with these beautiful sumptuous curtains, red curtains parted just to see her reading. And of course like I am now a woman holding a book looking at a picture of a woman holding a book and words that say woman holding book. So I feel like I'm definitely in this, this relationship myself here.

[13:13]Tell me about this illustration and are you selling this as as one off prints or anything because there is, I think that the original was sold.

[13:21]I have a wonderful new gallery Mary Ryan gallery which is really wonderful and selling the paintings. And it's from a photograph of a woman reading a book in a beautiful hotel in Morocco.

[13:35]So those, again, those moments that I encounter somehow of really just filming with so much joy and such a sense of purpose that oh, I know I'm going to do a painting of this woman and I'm going to go to my studio and I'm going to work and forget everything and listen to music and it's glorious.

[13:56]What kind of music do you listen to when you paint mostly classical, you know, I was on a loop of all of Bach, which could be a loop forever.

[14:04]I'm not going to read them, but a lot of classical music.

[14:09]Well, what an image sounds so peaceful.

[14:14]Oh, my gosh, like meditative state. How did you decide which one of the many to put on the cover why this one?

[14:22]Well, this is, you know, I do a lot of collaborations with my son. We did Sarah Burns closet together and a lot of other projects.

[14:29]So we were looking at we were designing together and it's really fantastic to have a dialogue with a relative who likes you.

[14:39]So we happen to like each other tremendously and also just have a sense of an aesthetic dialogue, the vocabulary of all of the things that we're interested in.

[14:48]And this is a woman that I saw on the street and I stopped her and I said, you are just so beautiful. And I never, I only stop people like as I told you who I fall in love with.

[14:57]I, it's never out of cynicism. It's never out of, you know, mocking anybody. It's just kind of like, oh my god. And what I'm seeing in a person is the courage.

[15:07]And the courage that it takes to get up in the morning, which I think is as, you know, obviously is considerable.

[15:14]And to go through the day doing what you're doing. And then you decide what to wear and you decide what to do and you decide.

[15:22]It's just fantastic. So to go to those micro moments and so on. And I stopped this woman. I said, Jerome, I'm just, I just love how you look and I'm going to do a painting of you. So she was very thrilled.

[15:33]Not everybody is delighted was that one painting, the irritated woman holding the cavern. Yes.

[15:38]But I saw the farmer's market and I said, and this is during the pandemic where nothing is going on. And nobody's seeing anybody. When I asked her, I'd like to take her picture. She was so irritated as I say.

[15:51]I thought, where is she going? What are you doing? You know, this is like a great moment in your life. Isn't it nice that somebody at any rate.

[15:58]And I also say I also admired her for her honesty. So there's a lot. There's a lot of complicated stuff going on during the day.

[16:05]Or today, with a good night's sleep after watching a good murder mystery. So no.

[16:11]Yeah, the day ends early and murder ensues. Wow. Okay. Kind of a contrast to the charming piece of your work. Now you're scaring yourself silly.

[16:23]You know what I'm doing. I'm engaging with somebody who's solving problems and making it okay.

[16:29]Which is which is not that far from reading the obits, which is as we say is about life and about getting a jolt of.

[16:38]You know, of importance.

[16:41]So to me, that's the kind of the book ends, the book ends, book ends of watching a very smart like her cute furrow or of course, Miss Marple, you know, go to the standards.

[16:54]Solving things while knitting or making a nice dish.

[17:00]Okay. I never thought of shows that way. So what's the last photo you took of somebody like yesterday or this morning or something that inspired you.

[17:10]I didn't take a photo that made me complete. I haven't stopped drawing her is a woman that I saw at the Met.

[17:18]I was at the Tudor show and the fashion that the fashion at the Met with what people are wearing to the museum is as often as good sometimes better.

[17:26]But certainly as good as well, not as good as but you know, extraordinary. So she was at the Tudor show, which is completely amazing.

[17:34]And in there everybody, you know that the I'm really thinking a lot about guilt and remorse because when you see the paintings from the tutors and Henry, you know, from Henry and Elizabeth and Mary.

[17:45]And I feel each other for power. Everybody killed everybody in some machination even very directly or you know, sort of viciously.

[17:54]And I think look at that and they don't seem to have any cards on the wall saying how guilty they felt.

[18:00]So I think about that like what is the level of responsibility and this is 500 years ago, are we to polite right now.

[18:08]No, it's that's not true. Of course, it's good to be kind. I guess at any rate, there was a woman there wearing this huge necklace of lapis lazily on a black sweater.

[18:19]She was teeny teeny teeny. She was walking with a cane and she had fantastic bangs and a page boy and I thought this woman is dependent. So I took a picture of her and now I'm thinking about guilt and jewelry.

[18:33]Oh, I love that.

[18:36]Okay, so after women holding things, what is next on your on your publications schedule here, you must have other places.

[18:43]I have, I have books that was next on my agenda is an installation of Sarah was closet, which will be in Florida and Sarasota and the winter.

[18:52]And in the next iteration, I'm doing a book about knowledge. I can believe it. I can't I can absolutely believe it.

[19:01]It's multi volumes. It's a compendium of knowledge. I can, but it's it's too big right now, but that's where I'm going.

[19:09]I love it. Like a box that like an encyclopedia.

[19:12]Exactly.

[19:13]It door to door salesman is going to come to your door. Perfect.

[19:17]Right.

[19:18]That's that's that's that's what's happening. And hopefully more booklets with my son and more and surprises, you know, the phone rings or the text comes whatever it is now.

[19:29]Of that. And are you reading anything good.

[19:32]I'm reading so many good things that I don't even know what to do. And it's that's one of the things about time.

[19:37]But I'm in a proof group and I'm reading the whole seven volumes again. I did this group leader. So seven eight years together.

[19:46]And now we're starting again because I thought it's either a mental institution or reading post.

[19:52]I'm not kidding. I highly recommend that for anybody who's having any problems, anything, which is everybody.

[19:58]We're also having we have a shake.

[20:00]group of the same wonderful woman, Bridget Bryan. And in between that I'm

[20:04]reading Sophia Tolstoy's Diaries, which are amazing. They had 13 children.

[20:11]Wow, a tempestuous life together. Of course, as you famously, as you know,

[20:17]he famously ran away from her at the end after he'd gone a little bit mad,

[20:22]perhaps, or they drove each other mad. And Claire, I just read Claire Keegan.

[20:28]I'm reading Italian Ginsburg, I'm reading Clarissa Spector. There are a lot of

[20:32]the side dishes to my priest and Shakespeare. They're not side dishes at all,

[20:37]but it's it's a wonderful. I'm looking, I have so many stacks of books that some

[20:41]of them are mystery stacks, of course, like we all have. Well, but it's a great

[20:45]thing. Amazing. Well, you're just so vibrant. It's like your mind and your

[20:52]creativity and these colors and it's so that's like all I can think to say.

[20:57]everything about you seem so vibrant and intellectual and curious. It's

[21:03]wonderful. Really wonderful. Well, sometimes usually or sometimes not a good day,

[21:11]not a good day, I'm a good day. Exactly. I wish there were many of so thank you.

[21:16]But there was something in here about holding onto a bad mood or wasn't there

[21:20]something? Yes. Yes. Well, well, you know, that's the way it is.

[21:24]Holding onto a bad mood and holding onto a bad mood after having a bad dream.

[21:28]Yes, that's right. But my attitude and dreams, you know, just like you

[21:31]set you off for days after you had what you think like, what is that? But now I'm

[21:35]looking at more cinema that I'm going to a double feature that I didn't I

[21:39]didn't know what I was going to see. So it's kind of, I'm not taking it so

[21:44]personally, which I'm even with that means, but I'm trying to I'm trying to

[21:50]view it as where's my popcorn and soda. I love it. Interesting. Yeah, sometimes

[21:57]like the weather just comes in and out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[22:01]Stand your ground. Well, Mira, thank you so much. It's always a delight to chat with you.

[22:05]And this is going on all my gift guides this year, what to give and what I'll be giving.

[22:10]And it's just such a beautiful sort of own to women and all the the many

[22:15]aspects of who we are and what we do and that it's okay to crumble at times as well.

[22:22]But absolutely. It's essential. Yeah, that's wonderful. Thank you. Thank you.

[22:27]Have a very good holiday season. Here's upon us. That's a nice thing.

[22:30]Baking show and Sue. Yes. All right. Thanks so much. Take care. Bye bye.

[22:37]Right. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[22:42]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read

[22:46]Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and

[22:52]meet lots of authors on zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture

[22:56]Sound for the sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this

[23:01]fantastic intro and out trim music.