Alexandra Horowitz, THE YEAR OF THE PUPPY: How Dogs Become Themselves
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[0:58]Alexandra Horowitz is the author of the Year of the Puppy, How Dogs Become Themselves.
[1:03]This was guest hosted by Juliana Goldman of Mama Dunn.
[1:07]Alexandra observes dogs for a living. Her research began more than two decades ago,
[1:11]studying dogs at play, and continues today at her dog cognition lab at Barnard College.
[1:16]She is the author of Inside of a Dog, What Dogs See Smell and Know, and three other books,
[1:21]including On Looking, Being a Dog, and Our Dogs, Ourselves. She lives with her family of Homo sapiens,
[1:27]Canis, Familiaris, and Phyllis Catas in New York City.
[1:30]Alexandra Horowitz, author of The Year of the Puppy, How Dogs Become Themselves. Thank you.
[1:37]It's great to be here. So tell us about this book and why you wrote it.
[1:41]This book is a little bit of a scientific memoir of the first year of a puppy, Our Puppy's Life.
[1:48]I am not only a dog researcher, a dog scientist, but you know, I've lived with dogs all my life,
[1:54]but I'd never known a dog from the beginning of her life, from the very first days of her life,
[2:01]and anyone who gets a dog later in their life, if it's months or years later,
[2:06]I think we all wonder, what was it like? You know, what is responsible for the personality that
[2:11]we see now or the problems that we see now? I wish I could go back there, you know, and see their
[2:17]puppyness. So here I did. I started from the beginning. So you see Tael the birth, which was like,
[2:24]it was beautiful. I had never really, I felt like I was along for the ride and seeing how
[2:31]long the actual birth process takes, how calm the female dog is. Tell she just gets to work,
[2:40]right? Yeah, you feel like the female dogs I observed giving birth because I watched a couple of
[2:46]of litters, you know, looked initially a little puzzled about what was happening and then they
[2:51]are down to business. They're professionals right away. And, you know, a human can help them, a person
[2:56]can be their assisting and sometimes that is helpful, but really they are responsible for not
[3:01]just birthing these pups in our, in this case, the case of the litter from which I adopted a puppy
[3:07]later. She delivered about a puppy every hour and she had 11 puppies. So she bursts them,
[3:14]she pulls them over to her, she eats the placenta, she licks them. So they start breathing,
[3:20]she gets them into a posture so that they can nurse and then all the while keeping track of the other
[3:27]10 who are, who are there at her belly. So it's extraordinary and it is really moving to see,
[3:34]it's a sort of a result of our current way of dealing with and living with dogs that we rarely see
[3:43]births of dogs unless we're breeding dogs or accidentally, you know, wound up with a dog who got
[3:48]pregnant. And 100 years ago, that probably wouldn't have been the case. 200 years ago, definitely not,
[3:54]you know, people were there for the early days of their puppy's lives. And so it was spectacular to
[4:01]see. What is more formative that first period of a dog's life when they're with their,
[4:08]their litter or the period and when they're, when they're taken away? My answer is going to be
[4:15]a little unsatisfying, which is both our most formative. I mean, both are formative insofar as
[4:22]that early time in their life, when they're with their mom and their litter, they go through
[4:28]these extraordinary changes from being a blind, deaf dog who can't move at all basically or regulate
[4:36]their own body temperature or relieve themselves voluntarily to several weeks on,
[4:42]gambling about following each other around. And there's an early socialization period, which is
[4:47]really critical for them forming a kind of robust equanimity when they face whatever they're going
[4:54]to face in their life. But then when they do wind up coming into a human home where there might
[5:00]not be other dogs as models or sort of to show you what to do or how to be a dog. And the human
[5:06]home is already completely set up, right? And it arranged and so ordinary for us people, but an
[5:13]extraordinary for the pub that also can be a moment depending on how they're incorporated into
[5:20]the family, which is really determines what their future is going to be like with that particular
[5:25]family or with people generally. So they're both influential. And we think about like one to seven
[5:32]in terms of the ratio of human years to dog years, but that's not really accurate when we're talking
[5:38]about those first couple of months, right? Yeah. And when I was writing my first book inside of a dog,
[5:44]I went into a deep dive about where that's one to seven. And I saw as I could tell it's kind of a
[5:51]back extrapolation from the fact that our average lifetime is 75 or so years and dogs was about 10
[5:58]years. But as you suggest, and future research has shown that they actually rapidly age so that
[6:07]the first year of their life might be considered equivalent to about 30 years in a person's life,
[6:13]and then they slow down 30 or 30, not not zero three 30, right? Their bodies develop so rapidly
[6:22]and they're ahead of their brains. Really, they're kind of like 30 year old adolescents. And so
[6:28]you can, as you can imagine, right? Like full of potential, but also not completely in control of
[6:35]themselves. And then they really slow down in their developments of the last years of their life,
[6:40]they're aging kind of at the rate, the wage. One of the fascinating questions that you would
[6:45]try to answer was whether or not once they left the litter and even like months or weeks or even
[6:53]years, I think later, do they recognize their siblings? Because that's a question we had with our
[6:59]dog. We bought our dog when he was a puppy. And, you know, we chose between him and his sister.
[7:05]And we always said we should have also bought, we should have also brought home his sister.
[7:11]What did you find out? Well, these pups were separated about nine weeks from each other and from
[7:17]their mom. And then they were reunited later, right? And I saw no signs of recognition of their
[7:23]siblings. So, you know, some people say to me, I feel so guilty that I took this puppy away from
[7:30]her mom, for instance, but mom is done with the puppies at that point. Yeah, that was so
[7:35]interesting how the mom begins that process. Yeah, she is part of not just helping them survive
[7:40]in the first weeks, but then helping them become independent. Yeah. And, you know, if we remember
[7:46]also dogs, female dogs could have a litter twice a year, their fertile twice a year. So,
[7:53]frankly, you know, evolutionarily, they're ready to almost go into another round potentially. And
[7:58]they have to get these litter out from under them. They're taking a lot of resources from her
[8:05]and so that's part of their learning to be independent. Now, that isn't to say they wouldn't
[8:10]in some distant way have like a memory of each other and there has been research that shows that
[8:16]both the mom and the lidders, if they're given a blanket with the scent of, you know,
[8:22]the mom's young or the litter's siblings or mom, they will prefer that. They'll prefer to lie on it
[8:28]than a blanket with the scent of a dog they don't know. But when they see each other in person,
[8:33]if they've only been together in person, in dog, if they've only been together for the first
[8:38]nine weeks of their life, there doesn't seem to be a lot of recognition.
[8:43]You call this a scientific memoir and I want to talk about your own experience through writing
[8:49]this and the relationship that you forged with with quid, quiddy, quiddy, you go through all
[8:54]the names and names. But you say that at one point in the book, you write that the dogs are the
[9:01]best teacher of all. What did you learn about yourself through through this process?
[9:09]You know, I thought that since I adored dogs in general, I had, I was living at the time with
[9:16]several dogs who I adored and admired, that it would be easy for me to add another dog to this
[9:23]fray and it really wasn't. You know, it took a long time for me to fall in love with her,
[9:28]I think partly I think because I was scrutinizing her so much, right? The dog scientist in me
[9:33]was observing her very carefully, maybe over carefully, and looking at behaviors that I thought
[9:39]might be harbingers of future behaviors, my husband and son just loved her right away. You know,
[9:45]they had more of like that pure visceral experience. But I stayed a little bit distant from it and
[9:51]I do think that that is the case for many people. You shouldn't expect that this dog will come
[9:57]into your life and then just instantly they're
[10:00]part of your family, right?
[10:01]Instantly, you're responsible for them.
[10:03]And they start looking to you for how the world's going to run.
[10:07]But that doesn't mean that the bond is always instant.
[10:10]And so I did wind up writing about that.
[10:12]And I hadn't expected to feel that way, frankly.
[10:16]But I've gotten some nice feedback
[10:17]that people felt reassured that even a dog scientist
[10:20]was not confident that I'd made the right choice.
[10:23]Do you think you purposefully tried not to get too close?
[10:26]No, I would love to have been completely
[10:29]head over heels for her.
[10:31]I think that, in retrospect, what I saw was that our two other dogs
[10:35]Finnegan and Upton were older.
[10:38]They were about 12 when we also adopted quid.
[10:41]And in some ways, having a puppy around rejuvenated them.
[10:45]But in other ways, it felt like her vitality
[10:48]was matched by, especially Finnegan's diminishment of his life.
[10:53]And suddenly, quick decline toward the end of his life.
[10:58]And I just adored Finnegan.
[11:00]Finnegan is, in all my other books,
[11:02]he has been this long-kind companion.
[11:04]It was just like the perfect charming sweet dog,
[11:08]the way some people feel about the work.
[11:10]No, I see you tearing up right now just talking about him.
[11:13]Oh, we lost him this January.
[11:18]I wrote an obituary for him as well.
[11:20]And I think that actually, and then Upton died a month later,
[11:24]and quid was too.
[11:25]After both of them passed, it was a lot easier to look at quid
[11:31]and say, oh, I really appreciate you for who you are.
[11:33]And I think that simple sentiment,
[11:35]appreciating for who they are, is what sometimes stands in the way
[11:39]from people really getting along with the dog in their house.
[11:42]They're behaving badly.
[11:45]They're energetic when we want them to be quiet and quiet
[11:48]when we want them to be energetic.
[11:50]But we really have to see that this is the dog we have.
[11:53]They're individual personalities
[11:55]and try to find some middle ground with that.
[11:59]You alluded to some of quid's behaviors
[12:02]that you were concerned were indicative of future issues.
[12:06]And that is definitely the dog owner,
[12:09]not the dog scientist hat that you were wearing.
[12:12]What were some of those, can you give an example
[12:15]of one of those behaviors that the dog scientist
[12:18]and you would have said, like, no, that doesn't.
[12:21]That's not necessarily a bad sign for the future.
[12:26]Sure, I have a perfect one, which is that she was really barky.
[12:29]She would bark at all the things, you know,
[12:32]the new thing, the sound she hears, the squirrels,
[12:34]she wanted to chase.
[12:36]She just expressed herself by barking
[12:38]and she had a very shrill bark, you know,
[12:41]I've lived with dogs who don't bark at all.
[12:43]And that's pretty useful if you live in New York City, for instance,
[12:46]as I do.
[12:47]And on the other hand, if you look at it as a scientist,
[12:51]which I can do at the same time,
[12:52]I mean, I kind of hold these two things in my head at once,
[12:56]you know, barking is just a communication.
[12:58]And she was always telling us something.
[13:00]And if I had just looked at it as a way that she was saying
[13:07]to us, listen, there's something outside,
[13:08]listen, I'm excited, right, listen, I'm alone,
[13:12]then you see, okay, right, that's all that is.
[13:15]I'm not gonna, certainly not gonna scold you
[13:17]for trying to communicate.
[13:18]In fact, bark's probably evolved in dogs
[13:22]as dogs attempts to communicate with humans,
[13:24]because wolves don't bark.
[13:26]And bark's right at the same frequency range as speech.
[13:30]So I'd be ignoring the very thing
[13:33]that actually might be her attempt to talk to me about.
[13:37]And I also thought it was fascinating
[13:38]because like many others, you adopted a dog
[13:41]during the pandemic.
[13:42]So this is a pandemic puppy.
[13:45]And you talk about how some of the things
[13:47]that you would normally do with a puppy,
[13:49]like taking them for a walk and hearing people like,
[13:52]cool over, oh my God, that's the cutest dog.
[13:55]And like, that makes up for some of these other
[13:58]behavioral issues, they like go hand in hand.
[14:01]And you didn't, you weren't able to have that.
[14:04]Yeah, and I actually think that that's a great pleasure
[14:07]of having a dog in a city is that there are so many
[14:09]other people in dogs, right?
[14:11]And the dog is an extension of yourself.
[14:13]Yeah, there's community in it.
[14:15]Yeah, somehow I think that we often think of,
[14:19]me included, you know, the compliment of our dog
[14:21]as a, as a compliment, a personal compliment, right?
[14:23]Of course it is.
[14:24]Yeah.
[14:25]And I, we had none of that.
[14:28]We were, you know, we were anywhere near other people.
[14:31]This was peak pandemic.
[14:32]They moved away from us, right?
[14:34]And so we missed that.
[14:36]And more important, we missed continued socialization
[14:39]and that a lot of people with pandemic puppies
[14:42]missed continuous socialization where she could just get
[14:45]used to encountering new things, new people, new dogs,
[14:49]new cats, new sounds, fire trucks, bicycles, whatever.
[14:52]So we wound up having to, you know, very assiduously go out
[14:57]and find places where she could be socialized
[15:00]and have encounters with lots of things.
[15:02]And that helped a huge amount.
[15:04]But it wasn't just a matter of course.
[15:06]We had to do it really intentionally.
[15:08]Is that one of the things that surprised you
[15:10]while you were working on this?
[15:12]Yeah. Well, I certainly didn't anticipate it.
[15:14]You know, I had started the project as it were of thinking
[15:17]about getting a puppy for our family
[15:19]and also imagining that I would write about the science
[15:22]of early dog development pre pandemic.
[15:25]And it was just that when the pandemic came swooped in,
[15:29]we acknowledged it and everything shut down,
[15:32]I was watching one litter and I realized,
[15:35]oh, I bet it's this litter that we're going to adopt a dog from
[15:38]because nobody's going to let me into their house
[15:39]to watch the pups grow up.
[15:42]And so we had nobody, right?
[15:45]We were just like everybody.
[15:46]We had no idea what was coming
[15:48]and certainly didn't think ahead about,
[15:51]well, it's going to be difficult to socialize her
[15:54]or what's going to happen when we eventually have to leave
[15:58]her at home and go to work or go to school.
[16:01]And those are the things that everybody was encountering at once,
[16:04]but at least our eyes then, you know, quickly were open to this
[16:08]because you could see in her behavior how she was just accustomed
[16:11]to just us, right?
[16:13]Got used to just being around the family
[16:15]and she was going to need exposure to those other things.
[16:18]I love it.
[16:19]It's like dog cognition scientists.
[16:20]They're just like us.
[16:21]Exactly. Well, they really are.
[16:23]And I've just been more time like watching slow motion video
[16:26]tapes of dogs being made new.
[16:30]Yeah, I love you say at one point.
[16:32]If I can say there's any difficulty involved in being a dog
[16:34]cognition researcher and really there is not.
[16:37]It's simply that we can be too close to our subjects to see them well.
[16:41]Once we start thinking, we know what we will see.
[16:44]We stop seeing and the science stops.
[16:46]We need to be agnostic not ready to feel certain that we know what a dog
[16:50]means by a gesture or what they might do next.
[16:54]Yeah, I love that you highlight that.
[16:55]I think that just like everybody who lives with dogs,
[16:58]even as a scientist, you have expectations or kind of assumptions
[17:03]about what the dog is doing or what they're about to do or who they are.
[17:07]And the best posture you can take really in both positions
[17:11]is to be a little agnostic and let them show you for themselves.
[17:15]What's your after going through this and writing about it and studying
[17:19]yourself through raising a puppy, having other dogs?
[17:24]Like what is your advice now?
[17:26]Your cheat sheet for people as they bring a puppy into their home?
[17:31]Well, first you don't have to get a puppy.
[17:32]You know, it's also really nice to get an older dog.
[17:36]I would say, come in expecting that they won't be who you think they'll be.
[17:43]Come in with fewer expectations and come in realising that there is no set of tricks
[17:50]or things that you can teach them that's going to make them
[17:53]miraculously understand what it's like to live in a human household.
[17:58]And that's going to make them bond with you immediately.
[18:02]You know, they're going through an early part of their life,
[18:05]puppyhood, adolescence, being a teenager.
[18:08]And once you realise that those phases are happening, it's a lot easier to
[18:13]just, you know, shepherd them through it as opposed to being concerned
[18:17]that they're not perfect yet.
[18:19]They're not doing all the behaviors we want yet.
[18:21]Be patient, essentially.
[18:24]Can you tell us about the dog cognition lab at Barnard?
[18:27]What exactly?
[18:28]What exactly is it?
[18:30]Yeah.
[18:31]Well, I started doing research into dog behavior with an interest in trying
[18:36]to find out what they know or understand when I was a graduate student.
[18:40]And when I came to Barnard after grad school, I was still doing small
[18:44]experiments with dogs.
[18:45]And these are behavioral experiments where basically you show them things
[18:48]and ask which one they choose, for instance, a point at one or the other
[18:52]and see if they follow your point.
[18:55]Simple experiments, sort of like games for the dogs.
[18:57]And I'd also gotten really interested in the fact that
[19:01]we as dog owners seem to know all about what dogs know and understand, right?
[19:05]They, though, they don't need to be a science.
[19:07]So I was testing our assumptions too.
[19:09]And then there were students who wanted to work with me.
[19:11]You know, there was no such thing as a dog cognition lab.
[19:15]When I started, I think I started the first one in North America.
[19:18]When did you start in 2008?
[19:21]Yeah, I know if it had been there when I was a student at Barnard,
[19:24]I'd definitely want to know.
[19:26]Yeah.
[19:26]It is a little bit on the PT because it's not like we're keeping dogs there.
[19:31]It's basically just a room where dogs and their people can come
[19:36]and participate in one of these little studies with us.
[19:39]And then they leave at the end of the day.
[19:40]In fact, dogs are not allowed on Barnard's campus.
[19:43]Our dogs have an exception.
[19:45]They're research dogs.
[19:46]I love it.
[19:47]And at the end, they get a little certificate, a certificate of
[19:50]dogness for completion of the studies.
[19:53]And it's brilliantly fun and it's really great
[19:55]that there are so many local dog owners who are interested in working with us.
[20:00]And how did you tap into this passion of yours?
[20:02]How did you get into it initially?
[20:05]It was pretty accidental.
[20:06]I didn't go to grad school thinking
[20:07]I was going to study dog behavior or mind at all,
[20:10]although I lived with dogs.
[20:11]I thought the only way to think about dogs professionally
[20:15]was to be a veterinarian, basically.
[20:17]And I wasn't that hot on being a veterinarian.
[20:19]But I was interested in cognitive science.
[20:21]I was interested in knowing about others' minds.
[20:23]And that included non-human animal minds.
[20:25]And then it wound up that dogs were just
[20:27]a great subject to study because I was studying play behavior.
[20:31]And guess what?
[20:32]They're playing all the time.
[20:34]I got a huge amount of data and was able to show
[20:36]a little bit of how they were sensitive
[20:38]to each other's attentional states in play, which
[20:42]is a kind of sophisticated cognitive ability.
[20:45]And then just dog stuck.
[20:47]Once you realize you can study this species
[20:50]and they're widely available.
[20:53]And also, I knew that the science was
[20:54]affecting and improving my relationship with my own dogs.
[20:57]I just stuck with it.
[20:59]But I didn't have any foreknowledge that this was going to happen.
[21:02]Well, it's so fun to talk to somebody who's
[21:05]so passionate about the line of work that they're in.
[21:09]And even just having this conversation,
[21:10]I can see your face beaming and smiling just
[21:14]as you talk about it.
[21:15]So it's contagious.
[21:16]Thank you.
[21:17]That's great.
[21:18]Well, I mean, other scientists come in this field.
[21:21]I do hear from a lot of young students
[21:24]who are interested in the science.
[21:25]And I'm like, this is great.
[21:26]This is you have your passion and you have a scientific method
[21:31]and the two of them can meet with this study subject.
[21:34]What do you think is the most misunderstood trait of dogs?
[21:38]I do think we still treat them a little bit
[21:40]as furry humans.
[21:42]So as you know, I'm very keen on the olfactory prowess
[21:47]of dogs and talking about how actually,
[21:51]it's not just that they have a good nose,
[21:53]that they can smell some things that we can't.
[21:55]But it's a profoundly different way of seeing the world
[21:59]that they're seeing the world through smell.
[22:00]And that kind of redefines everything
[22:03]about their experience.
[22:05]They recognize us by smell.
[22:06]They recognize each other by smell.
[22:09]They're seeing what happened on the street
[22:12]before they even got to the street because it's written
[22:15]in smells.
[22:16]So I think that's kind of misunderstood.
[22:18]We assume that because they're sitting alongside us
[22:21]on the sofa, they kind of are in on it with us.
[22:24]They know exactly what's happening.
[22:26]I don't think I'm going to get this totally right,
[22:28]but there was a statistic in your previous book
[22:32]that talked about, was it like if you poured a cup of salt
[22:36]into a pool, was that, was it a cup or was it?
[22:39]It was two teaspoons of sugar, two teaspoons of sugar
[22:43]in an Olympic-sized swimming pool, right?
[22:46]They would be able to detect the sugar in that pool.
[22:50]Right, their acuity, their olfactory acuity
[22:53]is very, very strong for so many substances.
[22:55]Not for, I mean, some we have perfectly good noses.
[22:57]If we stuck our nose in things and really sniffed,
[23:00]we would smell a lot more things than we do,
[23:04]but they're smelling this constantly.
[23:06]They have a way of like circular breathing
[23:08]so that they're never kind of getting the smells
[23:11]out of their nose as we often want to do
[23:14]on a New York City street in the summer.
[23:16]And so that's the way they see the world.
[23:19]And I think that's not completely understood.
[23:21]And in fact, even as a scientist,
[23:24]I'm still trying to make sense of what that means for them
[23:28]in terms of their understanding of time and each other.
[23:32]That's just such a completely different sensory experience
[23:36]going through life in a different kind of way.
[23:39]Absolutely.
[23:40]And I think that there has been this interesting side effect
[23:44]of the pandemic of COVID in particular
[23:46]which it took a lot of people's smell temporarily.
[23:49]Yeah. And people thought very aware of the fact
[23:52]that it's not just we're smelling our food
[23:55]or you smell the odor of the gas
[23:58]having been left on.
[23:59]It's that we recognize each other a little bit by smell
[24:03]and rooms have a smell and you have expectations
[24:07]for what it smells like in the spring.
[24:09]And this kind of information I think is what dogs deal in.
[24:15]And I love trying to get a glimpse of that.
[24:17]You know, if dogs ever lost that sense when they got COVID,
[24:22]I don't know.
[24:23]Well, very few dogs did as far as I know, get COVID.
[24:26]But I haven't heard of dogs being a gnaw's smack,
[24:30]losing their sense of smell.
[24:31]But then again, we're not usually testing them for that.
[24:34]You know, so it would be interesting to meet a dog
[24:37]without a sense of smile, be curious about
[24:39]how that affects their behavior.
[24:40]I mean, their vision is fine, their hearing is fine.
[24:42]So it's not like they're without bearings,
[24:45]but I haven't ever met an announcement dog.
[24:48]You know, that's like a new line of research
[24:50]you're opening up for me.
[24:52]Is that gonna be your next book?
[24:53]Well, I mean, I would love to know about it for sure.
[24:57]Yeah, what is next?
[24:58]And actually, I'm writing about animals more broadly,
[25:01]animals like kind of on the margin of our societies
[25:04]that we sometimes don't look at as closely as we could,
[25:08]but a really important to our society
[25:09]that even like pest animals, for instance.
[25:12]So the modern, the state of the modern animal in society
[25:16]bringing the same gaze that I brought to dogs
[25:18]to other animals.
[25:20]And are you doing that research at Barnard?
[25:22]Yep, amazing.
[25:24]All right, so for people who wanna learn more,
[25:27]if they have specific questions,
[25:29]do people reach out to you or?
[25:31]Sure, yeah.
[25:32]I have a website, Alexandra Horowitz.net
[25:35]that has a lot of information about me
[25:37]and there's a site I am ubiquitous on the web.
[25:40]I'm afraid.
[25:40]And I, you know, Barnard has under the psychology department.
[25:43]There's information about some of my research
[25:46]as a dog cognition lab at Barnard website.
[25:49]So absolutely.
[25:51]And if you're in the vicinity
[25:52]and you wanna participate in studies
[25:54]with your dog sign up for our mailing list
[25:56]and we'll notify you when we have a study.
[25:58]Awesome. Well, Alexandra Horowitz,
[26:00]thank you so much for the time
[26:02]and highly, highly recommend the year of the puppy
[26:05]and also other works by Alexandra.
[26:07]Thank you.
[26:08]Thank you.
[26:10]It's been a pleasure talking to Juliana.
[26:13]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[26:15]Don't have time to read books.
[26:16]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[26:19]at Zebioans and at Moms.
[26:20]Don't have time to read books.
[26:21]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com
[26:24]and sign up for my virtual book club
[26:26]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[26:28]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[26:30]at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[26:32]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[26:34]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.