Melissa Urban, THE BOOK OF BOUNDARIES: Set the Limits That Will Set You Free
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[0:54]The list at urban is the author of the book of boundaries set the limits that will set you free
[1:02]This was guest hosted by juliana Goldman of mama den
[1:06]Melissa is the co-founder and CEO of hole 30 and an authority on helping people create lifelong healthy habits
[1:12]She is a seven-time New York Times best-selling author including the instant bestseller the book of boundaries
[1:17]And has been featured by people good morning America the New York Times
[1:21]Wall Street Journal Forbes and CNBC she lives in Salt Lake City, Utah
[1:25]Melissa urban author of the book of boundaries. Thank you so much. Hi. Thank you for having me on just to get started
[1:32]I found this book to be so incredibly empowering and I feel like I've just channeling it and all of my
[1:38]Interactions with people and like you are in my head
[1:41]So I would just love for you to tell us how you got from the hole 30
[1:47]To the book of boundaries and what was your aha moment?
[1:51]Yeah, so the hole 30 is a 30-day elimination program for people who don't know you eliminate foods for 30 days
[1:59]To see what happens to your energy your sleep your mood your digestion your cravings your skin
[2:05]And then at the end of those 30 days you reintroduce those foods and compare your experience because it's an elimination program
[2:11]You will say no a lot during those 30 days to the breakroom donuts and your mom's pasta and the glass of wine at happy hour
[2:19]And I quickly discovered in the earliest days of hole 30 in 2010
[2:23]That people really had a hard time saying no especially in social situations and especially when faced with some kind of peer pressure
[2:31]So I started helping people more than a decade ago say no to food or drink that wasn't serving them or
[2:39]You know say no to conversations about their body or weight or the food on their plate
[2:45]And once they figured out that I was really good at helping them say no there
[2:49]They started asking me about how to say no to their mother-in-law who's always dropping by without calling or their co-worker
[2:54]Who's always gossiping or their best friend who's always emotionally dumping and my conversations really morphed into other
[3:02]Relationships and other areas of life and you know in the early days of the pandemic in 2020
[3:07]I saw all of this come to a head when especially for women and especially moms
[3:13]school and work and home and kids and
[3:16]Relationships all kind of bled together in a way that made us realize we needed stronger boundaries
[3:22]So that's where the idea from the book came from you became the boundary lady
[3:26]I did yeah, you know, it's so funny
[3:27]I had I started getting messages on Instagram from people saying to me
[3:32]Oh my spouse now refers to you as that boundary lady on Instagram, which I thought was delightful
[3:36]I loved it
[3:38]Wear it loud and wear it proud exactly
[3:40]And then you wrote my research shows that the main reason people don't set boundaries where they need them is that it's too damn uncomfortable
[3:47]Talk a bit about the research that you did
[3:51]For this book. Yeah, so you know, obviously I read as many different areas of research into boundaries as I could
[3:57]academic research like a logical research business leaders
[4:01]Recovery leaders, you know in the recovery community. That's my personal experience
[4:06]And then of course in talking to just thousands of people over the last 12 years in my own community
[4:12]And the number one thing that came up
[4:14]And I think the number one thing that I often saw
[4:17]You know lacking in some of the advice that I was reading from others was just how to navigate the discomfort
[4:23]It feels icky to say no to somebody. I don't want to let other people down
[4:27]I don't want to disappoint with them at an even deeper level
[4:30]I say yes, I'm a people pleaser because I want to feel loved
[4:34]I want to feel accepted
[4:36]I'm afraid of doing something that might you know turn them off or turn me off from feeling loved
[4:42]So that sense of discomfort was really something I wanted to tackle head-on in the book by
[4:47]Not only addressing it but kind of pointing out the flip side
[4:51]Which is that what we are already doing when we fail to set boundaries is already uncomfortable
[4:57]How do you look at boundary setting in this era of technology that we find ourselves?
[5:04]Because we'll tell me if you agree or disagree, but I feel like setting boundaries
[5:08]Virtually is a little bit maybe sometimes a little easier in conversation like text conversations versus
[5:15]Setting them in face to face or over the phone. Do you feel like we need to
[5:21]Tear down that wall that it should be like the same kind of
[5:26]Discussions across the board or is it nuanced?
[5:30]So I mean obviously it's nuanced and it depends
[5:33]Technology is here and it allows us to connect with people in a way that we otherwise could not
[5:38]So I get to stay in touch with my friends on the east coast on a daily basis on a way that I couldn't before text message or you know
[5:45]TikToks or email
[5:47]So if I want to set a boundary with someone that I don't see on a regular basis
[5:51]But still want to engage and still want in my life
[5:53]I might have to use technology to send it and I think that's perfectly acceptable
[5:57]I do think that we have to be aware of some of the limitations though in using technology in the fact that you can't read
[6:03]Body language or tone in the fact that people expect like immediate responses from technology especially via text message and very often
[6:12]Technology can be challenging with some of the boundaries. We want to set with ourselves
[6:17]You know the world is at our fingertips when we think about social media when we think about scrolling
[6:23]You know our news feeds and yet those kinds of things the alerts the pings can be
[6:29]I think that scientists have found that they are the biggest drain of willpower and they can be
[6:34]Severely detrimental to our mental health to our time to our energy
[6:39]So I think there are blessings and curses when it comes to technology and we have to try to use the technology in a way that works
[6:46]The best and the most effectively for us not kind of allowing it to work against us
[6:50]I really appreciated the part in the book where you said and it was the fall of 2020 right where you had to check yourself
[6:57]On was it doom scrolling or looking at your phone before bed each night. Yes. I had gotten into the habit
[7:05]It was like you know fall 2020. It was COVID. It was social justice
[7:08]It was the elections and I had gotten into the habit of
[7:12]Doom scrolling through Twitter on my phone right before I went to bed and
[7:16]Inevitably, I would find something that outraged me and sensed me
[7:20]I would start angry typing comments back or I'd come to bed
[7:23]You know mumbling to my husband. Can you believe that this is happening or I read this or that and finally he had to have a little intervention
[7:29]He caught it, you know in a more direct way than I did and he was like you need to get off your phone before bed
[7:34]I was like oh you're right like this is
[7:38]The catalyst for all of these negative consequences that are spilling into the rest of my evening and the rest of my next day
[7:44]I'm not getting a good night's sleep so you you know that sense of like stress or dread or anxiety
[7:50]Is the first sign often that a boundary is needed in that case my husband helped fully pointed it out to me
[7:56]one of the great things about this book is how you structure and you tackle boundary setting by
[8:02]by topic and you know work love friendship family
[8:08]So I'd love to get into some of the specifics
[8:10]But like big picture one of the questions I had when I was reading this is how to set boundaries when you're trying to set them with people
[8:18]Who don't respect boundaries?
[8:22]It's really important to remember and I think it's a common misconception about boundaries that boundaries are about telling other people
[8:27]What to do or controlling other people and that your boundary is only enforceable if somebody else agrees to it
[8:33]And the good news is that that's not the case at all because if that were the case
[8:37]You would be at the mercy of everybody else's behaviors
[8:41]To hold your own boundaries. So a boundary doesn't tell other people what to do
[8:45]It tells other people what you will do to keep yourself safe and healthy and to that effect
[8:51]You can't or should not set a boundary that you aren't willing to enforce
[8:57]So in some situations it looks like
[9:00]Initially expressing your boundary in the form of a request. I have this limit that maybe you didn't know I had
[9:07]So I'm at the table and somebody starts talking about politics and I would say
[9:12]Oh, excuse me
[9:13]Nobody has any fun when we talk about politics at the table
[9:16]Can we agree to talk about other subjects and then I would change the subject?
[9:20]Aunt Rose tell me about your vacation
[9:22]That is an expression of my limit in a way that is very clear
[9:25]But also very gentle and it invites them into my limit and says if you respect this
[9:30]I'm gonna have a much better relationship with you
[9:32]We're all gonna have a better time. This limit is healthy for us and for our relationship
[9:36]If they choose not to respect it and they continue to talk about politics
[9:40]Then you say
[9:42]If we can't change the subject
[9:43]I'm going to excuse myself from the table because that is the action that you can take to keep yourself safe and healthy
[9:49]And if they refuse to stop you leave
[9:52]So the consequence or the boundary itself. It's not always
[9:57]Like an easy thing if you're talking about setting boundaries
[10:00]at work, and your boss is deeply committed to disrespecting even your most reasonable limits.
[10:06]Like please don't call me when I'm on vacation.
[10:10]Boundary itself might require you to request a transfer, report them to HR, or quit your
[10:16]job.
[10:17]So they're not always easy to hold.
[10:19]But the point of a good boundary is that it is always enforceable to some degree by you.
[10:25]So you alluded to this earlier, but on the family front, the in-law who shows up unannounced.
[10:32]We're recording this around the holidays, so there'll be a lot of family interactions
[10:36]for everyone.
[10:37]Talk us through that situation.
[10:39]Yes.
[10:40]So if you have an in-law, if you have a parent who continues to drop by unannounced and
[10:45]you haven't said anything, right?
[10:47]You just sort of grin and bear it and you open the door and you're like, hey girl,
[10:51]come on in and then you're short and you're cranky, that's hurting your relationship.
[10:55]It would be much kinder to share a boundary.
[10:57]So your entry level sort of green level boundary would be, hey Carol, would you please
[11:02]call before you come over and give us at least an hour's notice.
[11:06]They go perfectly clear, perfectly kind and now Carol can just say, oh sure, no problem.
[11:11]Now if she doesn't like that and she stops by again without calling, you hold the boundary
[11:18]in what I call a yellow response, which is you answer the door, you say, oh Carol, you didn't
[11:23]call, now isn't a good time.
[11:25]Would you like to schedule a time to come back this weekend or should I call you in
[11:29]an hour when I'm free?
[11:31]So you essentially are saying, you didn't call, that is my request.
[11:35]You refuse to respect that request for whatever reason.
[11:37]So it's not a good time for me and you're not coming into the house.
[11:40]The red boundary, if Carol continues to show up on your porch time and time again without
[11:44]calling, even though you and your spouse have clearly asked her to, you don't answer
[11:48]the door.
[11:50]And at this point, this is honestly Carol just being deliberately rude and disrespectful
[11:54]of your very reasonable limit.
[11:57]And it might sound harsh, but remember you've given Carol a number of opportunities to meet
[12:01]you in this limit and she simply chosen not to and now this is how you hold the boundary.
[12:06]And you also advise on which partner should be having those kinds of conversations with
[12:14]the in-law and question or the parent in question.
[12:17]Talk a bit about that because it's not black and white.
[12:20]There are situations where a husband should be talking to the mother-in-law if that's
[12:25]the best way to get through this.
[12:27]So my general rule is handle your own parents.
[12:32]If we as a couple are trying to set a boundary with my parents, I'm going to have the conversation
[12:36]and say, on behalf of us, my family, my spouse and I, my kids, we have this limit.
[12:41]We have agreed to this limit and we are asking you to respect it.
[12:43]But I'm going to take the lead in having the conversation and my husband is going to do
[12:47]the same with his parents.
[12:48]We are on the same page.
[12:49]We are backing each other up so that if his mom goes to him or goes to me and says,
[12:54]do you agree with this or are you going to let this limit come between us?
[12:57]We are both on the same page.
[12:59]Of course, there are exceptions.
[13:01]So sometimes the in-laws would rather kind of respect or would be more likely to respect
[13:07]the pregnant persons request in the relationship.
[13:10]So if I'm the pregnant person, then I might say to my mother-in-law, we can't handle
[13:15]visitors right now.
[13:16]Nine months pregnant.
[13:17]This is not a good time.
[13:18]You're welcome to come, but we'll find you in Airbnb or a hotel and they're more likely
[13:21]to listen to me than my spouse.
[13:23]Sometimes parents might want to listen to the professional in the relationship.
[13:28]So if you're trying to set a limit around your kids food or eating and one of you is a doctor
[13:32]or a psychologist, go ahead and use that to your advantage.
[13:36]But I like the idea of handling your own parents because there are such complex relationships,
[13:41]having from childhood that often happen when you marry into someone else's family.
[13:46]And you don't want to put yourself in an awkward situation where now you're sort of like
[13:51]seen as the troublemaker, the one who's coming in and causing all of the disruptions,
[13:55]it's really important for you and your partner to be on the same page.
[13:58]What is a script for parents or grandparents weighing in on parenting?
[14:05]Oh, overparenting, I had to do this with my dad and he means well.
[14:09]he really does, but I think, you know, every grandparent kind of wants to give you the
[14:14]benefit of their experience or thinks that the way they did it is maybe the right way.
[14:18]And obviously, parenting has changed a lot in a generation.
[14:22]My parents were very authoritarian.
[14:24]We are not so authoritarian.
[14:26]We kind of take other approaches to parenting.
[14:28]So in the moment, or if you know that this is something that happens often, you can say
[14:32]ahead of the next visit, like, hey, we're coming to visit, can't wait to see you.
[14:37]Mr. Reminder that when I'm there, I am his parent.
[14:42]And I need you to respect my rules for him to preempt the visit exactly before you even
[14:48]get there set the expectation if this is something that comes up often in the moment.
[14:53]What I might say is in the presence of my child, if I've said my child can have five
[14:57]more minutes of iPad and my dad is like, no, he's had too much put it away.
[15:00]Oh, grandpa, remember, when I'm here, I set the rules, son, you're perfectly fine to
[15:05]have five more minutes.
[15:06]When you're done, put the iPad away and then come find us.
[15:07]And I'm going to remind everybody in the moment that I'm the parent.
[15:11]If this kind of overparent and continues, and it's really causing stress for my child and
[15:16]stress for me and stress for the relationship, I'm going to have to have a hard conversation
[15:19]with grandpa about how the way we show up and visit with him might have to change if he
[15:25]will not respect my role as this child's parent.
[15:28]And, you know, take the grandparents time on our tradition of like, buddy out, why do
[15:33]you think that women have the most difficult time sitting boundaries?
[15:37]We have been conditioned from so many different systemic factors.
[15:42]The patriarchy and the stereotypically rigid gender roles that the patriarchy brought us,
[15:48]religious influences, diet culture, the way that our families model the boundaries are
[15:53]lack thereof.
[15:54]We've been conditioned to not have needs.
[15:56]As moms, we are praised to the most when we're selfless.
[16:00]When we put everybody else's needs and wants and feelings above our own and ours don't
[16:04]even show up on the list.
[16:06]That's when we are the most worthy.
[16:07]And when we do have needs and express them, even if we express them kindly, if they're
[16:14]even the least bit direct, we're told that we're selfish.
[16:17]We're told that we're rude.
[16:18]I can say something in a meeting that is very direct and I'm told that I'm abrasive or
[16:23]aggressive.
[16:24]But when a man says the exact same thing, he's decisive or bold, there are just a lot
[16:29]of factors that women have to unlearn and reclaim their voice in this idea of like
[16:35]my needs are worthy too.
[16:37]My feelings matter too.
[16:38]I have to put myself on that list.
[16:40]In fact, I should put myself at the top of that list because if I am not healthy and happy
[16:45]and mentally strong and feel physically safe, I am of no good use to serve anybody else.
[16:51]Over the last few years, have you found in your research that women, and this is a blanket
[16:58]in a generalization, are better at setting boundaries?
[17:02]I mean, you make the point which I think is really important in the book that like
[17:06]boundaries, setting boundaries comes from a place of privilege.
[17:09]But do you find that women have been emboldened to set boundaries for themselves, especially
[17:17]in the workplace after the last few years with COVID, remote work?
[17:23]I would go back even farther than that and I would say meet the Me Too movement, helped
[17:27]empower women to use their voice in whatever those settings are.
[17:33]And yes, I think open discussions around privilege and allyship, open discussions about
[17:38]the impacts of toxic masculinity on all of our lives, on all of our culture, not just
[17:44]how it affects women.
[17:46]And I think watching other women use their voice in a public way to not only set and hold
[17:53]their own boundaries, but lift others up and kind of pass the mic, have been really
[17:59]empowering.
[18:00]And I definitely am seeing this conversation, like boundaries is very much in the zeitgeist
[18:04]and I am seeing the conversation now and I think we're seeing Gen Z step up and do it in
[18:08]a way that many of us felt like we couldn't in our early 20s and that's really gratifying
[18:13]to see.
[18:15]I still think women have a long way to go.
[18:16]I still think we struggle with it far more intrinsically than a man would just given
[18:22]the society we live in.
[18:23]I've loved to dig deeper into this Gen Z divide with boundary setting because I feel
[18:28]like, yes, on the one hand, I so admire the boundaries that younger employees are setting
[18:35]for themselves.
[18:37]On the other hand, I hear from friends, former colleagues, I see it just in my own interactions
[18:45]that sometimes those boundaries seem somewhat unreasonable.
[18:50]And I don't know if that's just because I'm old now, it's like, well, that's not how
[18:53]we grew up or if because there needs to be some sort of snap back to, yeah, to reach
[19:01]a middle ground.
[19:02]I think obviously it's case by case basis, right?
[19:05]But I do think that capitalism have moved all of us so far in the direction of being beholden
[19:15]to our companies.
[19:16]I mean, Gen Z is talking about quiet quitting, right?
[19:19]And it, what they're not quitting, what they are saying is, I should be able to expect
[19:25]my paycheck for doing my job.
[19:28]I should not have to always give more of my personal time to the company.
[19:32]I don't have to be passionate about my job, as long as I'm doing a very good job.
[19:37]I should be able to leave the office and go home and not think about work because this
[19:41]is my personal time.
[19:42]I should not expect to be texted on the middle of a paddle board in Barbados from my first
[19:47]vacation in three years.
[19:49]They're not quiet quitting, but I think the pressures of capitalism and the way that at least
[19:53]I have been entrenched into, especially entrepreneurship, where it's like, you hustle
[19:58]24 seven.
[20:00]you sleep when you're dead. You're working when they're resting. That is such an
[20:05]unhealthy toxic place to be that I feel like the boundaries that I'm seeing now are perfectly
[20:11]reasonable, but they feel so like such a wild swing because of how far we've all been pushed
[20:17]by the fact that human nature will take as much as we are willing to give and we have been
[20:21]conditioned to just give and give and give without limits, especially in the workplace.
[20:26]Well, I guess, and that brings up two questions, which is one like what does entrepreneurship
[20:32]look like in 10 years from now? Like the entrepreneurs of Gen Z, what is the culture that they're
[20:40]creating? And second question is like, can you have boundaries in a hustle culture?
[20:46]Yes. So to answer the second question, yes, and you should because you are of no good to anyone,
[20:54]not your creativity, not your productivity, not your focus, not your customers, not your clients.
[21:00]If you don't protect your own time and energy and space and mental health and focus,
[21:05]a boundary list environment serves absolutely nobody. And you can probably get away with it for
[21:11]a little while, but you will end up burned out. You will end up burned out and your business will suffer
[21:16]and your health will suffer. And then you're going to have to spend all of that time digging
[21:20]yourself out of that debt when you could have just set some healthy boundaries. And maybe you
[21:25]would have not exploded quite as quickly, but I don't want an explosion if it just leads to like a
[21:30]dramatic crash right afterwards. So I think the concept of boundaries and entrepreneurship is a very
[21:35]hot topic right now. And I think people are talking about, you know, rest as resistance and recovery
[21:40]and that ministry is doing a wonderful work in there. People are talking about this idea of like,
[21:43]no, I get eight hours of sleep a night. And I don't take calls until 10 a.m. because I have my
[21:48]morning routine that I'm deeply committed to for my health and for my mental health and for
[21:51]my productivity. So yes, I think you absolutely can and should. As for what entrepreneurship
[21:57]looks like 10 years from now, I don't know, you know, it's so interesting to watch as Gen Z say,
[22:03]like I don't have to always be in pursuit of climbing the corporate ladder. What if I just
[22:07]really like where I am right now? I don't need a promotion. I don't need a title. I don't need a
[22:11]raise. I'm perfectly happy with where I am. We see tiny houses and van life. And, you know,
[22:16]I don't know if maybe that is like a backswing or resistance to the kind of capitalistic
[22:20]culture that we may have been brought up with and whether that will levels that or maybe there
[22:24]are, I'm sure if we look back at history, there are cycles and there are trends of this kind of
[22:28]waves. But it will, if nothing else be interesting. I recently went in the last few months and I
[22:34]can't remember the authors to give credit to, but they were talking about the concept of
[22:40]guardrails versus boundaries, which is like the guardrails are what we expect from our
[22:46]places of employment, our government. Those are like the protections. Like when you're driving
[22:52]down a road and there are guardrails, they prevent you from like driving off off the road.
[22:58]And the boundaries are what we set for themselves. So I wonder if there will be this like
[23:03]evening out of Gen Z pushing greater guardrails in place to be able to back off some of the
[23:10]the boundary setting that we're talking about or the degree to which they're setting the boundaries.
[23:16]Yeah. I think this is what the conversation around quiet quitting has been missing for a long
[23:19]time as they're looking at it. We're talking about it from the perspective of the employee who is
[23:23]saying, I want a fair exchange of labor for value and I will not keep giving myself to the company
[23:28]without recognition, without, you know, reward, without appreciation. But we have to look at it from
[23:33]the top down as well as an organization. Am I building the kind of culture that when we do ask you
[23:40]to go above and beyond because there will be periods of that in our in any, you know, business
[23:44]life cycle, will employees be willing to do that because it is infrequent because it is not expected
[23:50]because it is appreciated because it is rewarded because it is acknowledged. If we create that
[23:56]culture from the top down where boundaries are respected and encouraged and modeled. So I am preaching
[24:02]what you are watching me do. And now, you know, these extra periods of work are pitching in or
[24:08]team player are actually feeling like an equal exchange for the employee. Now, I think we've got
[24:14]it coming in both directions where we have a truly healthy workplace culture. I want to switch gears
[24:19]just quickly back to family and children and setting boundaries with children of do a real-life example.
[24:27]It's 535. My son walks in, wants to snuggle. His light hasn't come on. I really, really want
[24:34]to snuggle. I don't want to ruin him and give him like issues by me rejecting his snuggle advances
[24:40]whatever. But I want to sleep still. What is the script? I know. I know. So I, you know, I don't talk
[24:47]about boundaries with kids as much because a my son is only nine. So I only have personal experience
[24:52]up until that age. And I feel like the conversation should be really nuanced with somebody who has
[24:57]an understanding of like basic trial development and where their brains are. Dr. Becky Kennedy
[25:02]is fantastic boundaries with kids. But I had the same thing. He had, he has not allowed to come
[25:08]into my room or was not until 623. He negotiated me down from 630, which I thought was wonderful at
[25:14]like four years old. Brilliant. But what would happen is he would knock on the door and it would be
[25:19]615. And I would say we're not available. It's not snuggle time yet. Go play. You can go play. You
[25:25]can go read or you can go color. All of those things were out in his room for him at 623 come back
[25:31]and I can't wait to see you. So, you know, and I would explain to him that he needs that quiet time
[25:36]in the morning that I need that quiet time in the morning to get good sleep. And we had to enforce it
[25:41]a few times and like it was kind of sucky and kind of hard to do it. And now, you know,
[25:46]I'm looking at reading Dr. Becky's parenting book now and I'm like, did I even do it right back then?
[25:50]Because that was, you know, years ago. But I do think it's important for kids to see that boundaries
[25:55]are healthy, that it is, you know, certainly not a rejection, that it's just, they feels real safe
[26:00]for him to know that there are these limits and they aren't, you know, they don't budge. They
[26:04]aren't malleable. They are reliable. And now I see him at 9 freely and confidently setting boundaries
[26:11]with us around when we can come into his room or we can't read this one journal or I can't pick out
[26:16]his clothes anymore. And that feels really good to me. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. I bet it's nice to see
[26:22]your kid like standing up for themselves. You know, yeah, he is. I mean, I'll jump onto the couch
[26:27]now with him and I'll be like, oh my gosh, do you want to snuggle and watch the show? And he'll be
[26:30]like, I don't want to snuggle, but I would like to watch the show. And it's like, okay, we said
[26:34]head by side and watch, right? So yeah, my daughter says sometimes she'll go, kisses are not on the
[26:39]menu today. Yeah. Like, that's fine. Okay. Let me know when they're back on the menu and I'll be here.
[26:46]I love it. That's so encouraging. All right. So if the book of boundaries came out of the whole
[26:50]30, what's going to come out of the book of boundaries? Oh, what a good question. I mean, right now,
[26:55]I am very, very deeply entrenched in helping people through the holidays, of course. And there
[26:59]are just so many conversations to be had around boundaries and self empowerment in all of your
[27:04]relationships. I haven't thought too much farther ahead than that. I think once you give birth to
[27:10]like a baby, a book, baby, even for people to be like, oh, what's the next kind of thing you're
[27:15]working on? I'm like, oh, I don't know. I just want to rest and enjoy it. So I definitely want to,
[27:19]though, continue the conversation around boundaries, continue to expand it and continue to offer people
[27:24]scripts around how they can set boundaries in their own life and then share those really
[27:28]empowering stories that I'm getting to help other people realize that maybe this is something that
[27:33]they can do too. And so beyond the book, how can people get get that support? Where can they find you?
[27:38]Yeah. So I have a newsletter called XOMU. My website is just MelissaU.com. And I offer all kinds of
[27:46]boundary advice and life advice and relationships. And I talk about recovery and addiction and
[27:52]all kinds of subjects. I'm of course on Instagram talking about boundaries all the time also at
[27:57]MelissaU. And on TikTok, I'm loving being on TikTok at Melissa underscore you. It is like the wild
[28:03]west over there. And I'm super into it. So you can find me there too. What's your favorite TikTok that
[28:08]you've done? Did I even say that correctly? Yeah, because I don't know. It's so weird. The ones that
[28:13]explode with like ways that I would never have imagined. But I have, I talked very casually about
[28:21]those shared set of expectations that I have. My husband and I have around household management.
[28:26]And like the fact that I don't ever ask him to help. And he never asks me to help because we
[28:30]understand that if there are dishes to be done or trash to be taken out or laundry to be put away,
[28:36]we just do those things. And we don't ask the other person. And man, did that get a lot of
[28:42]comments, a lot of positive comments from women and a lot of interesting comments. Let's just say
[28:47]for men. How diplomatic? Yeah. Melissa Urban, thank you so much for the time. Thanks so much for
[28:54]having me. It was great to talk with you. Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have
[28:59]time to read books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibbowens and at moms don't have time to
[29:04]read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and
[29:10]meet lots of authors on zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[29:15]for the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this
[29:19]fantastic intro and out trim music.