Amy Wallen, HOW TO WRITE A NOVEL IN 20 PIES: Sweet and Savory Tips for the Writing Life

2022-12-29  ·  26:58  ·  Amy Wallen  ·  Podcast Audio

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[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now.
[0:07]Thank you so much. Called moms don't have time to read books.
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[0:36]You can learn more about me at Zivi Owens.com, but really you're here to learn more about the authors, and that is what we're going to do.
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[0:58]Amy Wallen is the author of How to Write a Novel in 20 Pies, Sweet and Savory Secrets for Surviving the Writing Life.
[1:05]Amy is also the author of the LA Times Best Selling Novel Moon Pies and Movie Stars, and the memoir When We Were Ghouls, a memoir of ghost stories.
[1:14]As a writer and resident at Ocean Discovery Institute, Amy teaches personal storytelling to young people traditionally excluded from science, due to race, income status, and educational opportunity.
[1:24]She also facilitates and co-teaches manuscript workshops in San Diego, and France, at which she serves pie.
[1:32]For several years, Amy was associate director at the New York State Summer Writers Institute, and a novel writing instructor at UCSD and UCLA extensions.
[1:41]She is the creator of Savory salons, literary salons with pie, a day of discourse with successful authors on the writing life.
[1:48]And the founder of dime stories, three-minute stories told by the author and featured on NPR.
[1:53]Welcome, Amy.
[1:54]Thank you so much for coming on Mums.
[1:56]Don't have time to read books to discuss your book How to Write a Novel in 20 Pies, Sweet and Savory Secrets for Surviving the Writing Life.
[2:04]Great. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
[2:08]So, Amy, you and Wright before me at the San Diego Book Festival.
[2:13]And I watched your whole presentation and how the audience was just laughing at everything and how dynamic you were.
[2:20]And all of your great advice and your own personal story, like throwing the cake away from your sister-in-law or whatever.
[2:26]And I was like, well, I have to have her on my podcast.
[2:29]Although I will say, at the end, you were like, make sure everybody goes and gets your book signed over at the signing tent.
[2:35]Everybody left before my presentation.
[2:38]And I was like, wait, where are they all going? So, anyway, it's all right.
[2:42]I'm over it. I'm over it. And I'm happy to have you on.
[2:44]I'm sorry about that.
[2:46]That's okay. That's okay.
[2:48]Okay. How to write a novel in 20 Pies. Can you tell everybody why you wrote the book and why you're the person to write the book and how you came into writing it and more about the content and all that good stuff?
[3:00]I'm sure I actually, the book came to me. I was standing in front of my students at University of California in San Diego.
[3:07]I was teaching a novel writing class.
[3:09]And I just saw those faces and thought, they all want to know the secrets to writing.
[3:15]And, you know, I love the Somerset mom quote that I keep at the bottom of my email that basically says there's three, you know, secrets to writing a novel and no one knows what they are.
[3:27]But, you know, I do have this curriculum built up on, you know, how to write a novel and this sequence of events and I was teaching, you know, beginning novel or even how to start a novel all the way through, you know, advanced novel.
[3:43]And I just realized, you know, I can take all of this and put it down and share it with more than just these classrooms that were so hungry for it.
[3:54]And obviously, people were paying for the class and they wanted to come. So I thought, why not create a book.
[4:00]And I truly feel like perseverance is the main secret right like just keep writing. So I wanted the book to include a not just how to do it.
[4:12]And there's really very little craft in it specifically because I feel like you can get that from a lot of other books.
[4:19]But this one is that that, you know, it's encouragement on just keep going despite all the obstacles, the time it takes to write it, the struggles to find an agent and the struggles to get an editor.
[4:35]You know, I had so many personal stories that I shared with my classes over all the, you know, the obstacles I had gone through and whether they were personal like going through a divorce is still trying to finish my novel or or even just, you know, I've had, I've had three agents and three books and so I had to go look for a different agent.
[4:55]I just spoke at two agents because the first agent, you know, try to stitch it and send it out and a lot of people liked it, but didn't know what to do with it.
[5:04]So I found another agent and she found another set of editors that, you know, ended up having an auction over it. So, you know, it's kind of like just keep going.
[5:13]You know, there are times when I need to listen to my own advice and it's not, you know, as easy as, you know, just just get out there and find another agent.
[5:20]I wanted it to be fun and I wanted it to be something that people pick up along their journey and, you know, maybe it'll have wine stains and chocolate stains on it and dogyard pages and something that they would have a good time with.
[5:37]So that's, you know, I just sort of through all my own personal experience and thoughts and feelings about the process into the book.
[5:47]And tell everyone why, why pies, why this framing.
[5:52]Well, pies was again my own personal experience. I do feel like, you know, we need comfort along the way because there is this like there are these lot, there's a lot of rejection and the writing world and this whole process from beginning to end.
[6:06]I felt like also, and then my own personal story, which I tell at the very beginning, was that I was feeling like I was never going to finish my first novel and I really wanted to just give up.
[6:19]And I went to my kitchen and thought, and I like to bake pies and so I made myself a chicken pup pie.
[6:27]And, you know, it was a big long process and I was doing a lot of new things with it and creating a different kind of cross and you know, and there was a creative process and that, and then when I was done.
[6:37]And it puts like I to eat it.
[6:39]I realized I could now go back to sitting in my chair and working on the novel again and there was something about like stepping away, doing something else creative and seeing it finished.
[6:53]And having that satisfaction of something short finished and then knowing I was, I was a creative person in all that I wasn't just, you know, peddling my feet and not going anywhere.
[7:05]And then I could go back to the novel and focus on that bigger longer trajectory. So that was my own story.
[7:11]And then I thought, well, this to be kind of fun to put that in there for a little comfort along the way as people are reading. So, you know, whether they like, why or not it's in there for some people like to just read recipes.
[7:25]You know, I've heard, I keep hearing the word procrasta baking.
[7:29]So I don't think of it as procrastinating in my case. I think of things like, you know, alphabetizing your sock drawer or, you know, searching for dog toys online. Those are things that I think are procrastinating.
[7:43]And those are important too, I think. But yeah, so I don't think of baking as procrastinating at least in my case. And so it's more comfort.
[7:51]I love that. I feel like my biggest procrastination is doing other things in Canva, you know, like doing graphic design stuff and like instagram.
[8:00]But as soon as I go into Canva, I'm like, oh, no, I can relax. I'm just going to like tinker around here for a while. And then I can like go back to thinking and all that stuff.
[8:08]So yeah, I feel like, I feel like it's justified because it still helps everything I'm doing. And I still need to do it.
[8:15]So you have so many clever things. And the great part about this book is like, it's just so fun when sometimes trying to slog that so much of the narrative around writing or just like a slog or like trying to get through it or whatever.
[8:28]And this is like, no, this is fun and playful and awesome. Like you have this whole thing on elevator pitches like a very disgruntled illustration, disgruntled elevator man in this illustration with like all these different things like an orphan boy goes to wizard school.
[8:44]A crazy scientist brings to life a hideous looking but intelligent creature and boy does you regret it and all these different things of course to encapsulate like we are messaging around elevator pitches and all that.
[8:55]And just tell me about like the format and all these wonderful illustrations and women holding pies and of course your recipes and all of this like why why like this people you meet in writing group that was another great one.
[9:08]The writer who never writes, but he was lots of opinions.
[9:11]A new eager writer who loves everything. The writer who knows everything about every book ever written the queen of metaphor.
[9:18]One of every group.
[9:21]Yes, that one came because I was I basically called myself I was a more of writing groups because I went to every possible writing group there ever was just so that I could you know get everybody's input and I love the deadlines I loved all of it, but sometimes it wasn't always productive and I had to learn a lot about how to manage my own self in writing groups and the illustration.
[9:44]There's over 200 illustrations in this book and I just saw it as whimsical you know like I said I wanted it to be fun but also get the message across you know it's a serial writing is hard and so I wanted the book to be.
[10:00]fun. I wanted people to just open any page and see something that made them laugh.
[10:06]And the illustrations are from a friend of mine who I mentioned in the book who was in my writing
[10:11]group. We were in Janet Fitch's writing group together and we used to hang out and make pie
[10:15]and eat a lot of pie together. And I knew he did these incredible illustrations and his
[10:21]sense of humor and my sense of humor both meet in that sardonic realm. And so I said, hey,
[10:28]would you be interested in working with me on this proposal? And he looked at my proposal and
[10:34]sent me some illustrations to go with it. And it just felt like it clicked. And it went on
[10:38]from there. We then got the book deal and then wrote the book together. And yeah, it was fun.
[10:44]It was a lot of fun. And yeah, his illustrations mainly laughed too. So it was just
[10:50]and take me into more of your actual, the novels that you wrote and what those novels are about in
[10:57]in case people want to like go back and like read your novels and then read your book about writing
[11:01]and then read the books you wrote and all that. Sure. Sure. Yeah. It's actually the title is also
[11:07]very sardonic. It's basically how to write a novel in 20 pies, but it's any kind of writing at all
[11:12]is really what it covers. Because I do talk about writing novels and also memoir and really any kind
[11:19]of writing. And I even give some anecdotes about this particular book, which isn't, it's a little
[11:24]memoir, a little how to and a little cookbook. So my first novel is this is my elevator pitch
[11:31]is about a woman who spots her runway daughter on a buttermade commercial. And so she she's from Texas
[11:37]and she sets off her Hollywood to find her and try to get her to own up to her responsibilities,
[11:43]but she left two little kids behind when she ran away. So so that one's it's also sort of a
[11:50]comic novel, but of course obviously has a little pointy and see in it with the the band of
[11:55]young kids. But it's Hollywood in 1976 when it was at its, you know, grungiest. And then my second
[12:02]book is what's that title. Tell the first one all the title. Oh, I forgot the title, right? That's
[12:10]sort of important. Isn't it? Moon pies and movie stars. Yes. Thank you. There's another pies,
[12:15]but different kind of pies. And that one's actually it's not moon pies. I don't know if you're familiar
[12:20]with them, but do this like little cake thing that's sold in like gas station. And yeah, I don't
[12:27]really like moon pies, but every book club I went to serve moon pie. Yes, I learned maybe that in
[12:33]your book you should put foods that you like. So I will put like I'll call my book like chocolate
[12:39]chip cookies. No reasons or something like that. So and then the next book is a very different
[12:50]title. It's my memoir. And it's when we were goals. I'm in more of ghost stories. And it's about,
[12:56]I guess I have this running theme of a band and the kids, but it's about when my family lived
[13:02]overseas. We lived in Africa and South America. And I was basically alone a lot and left alone.
[13:08]And my family kind of dispersed when we went overseas. My mom got malaria. And then just sort of
[13:15]going through all of that. I mean, there's a lot of funny stuff too because it was also a lot
[13:20]about learning about other cultures and being a kid, not, you know, having to go to these strange
[13:25]schools, not speaking Spanish yet, having to learn Spanish, which was a great way to learn,
[13:30]just sort of thrown in there. And then my family dug up an Inca grave. So I was exploring that memory
[13:37]of how did we ever get to a place where we were actually digging up. Right. So it's funny,
[13:44]not funny. And so I had a strange memory. And obviously the memory strange because I remember digging
[13:50]up this grave as a kid. And then I sort of calling around to write this story. And I found out my
[13:56]memory was very distorted. I thought my brother was there and he wasn't, you know, I'm not giving
[14:02]any of the way. This is sort of in the very beginning of the book. But I wanted to explore memory,
[14:06]like how is it that we remember something so completely different than it was? And why did I
[14:12]want my brother to be there so badly? And so I just wrote that story about, you know, everybody saying,
[14:19]no, that's not the way it was. And me trying to uncover or dig up, so to speak metaphor. What I was,
[14:26]I really wanted from that memory, why I was holding onto that memory so, so, so strongly. So yeah,
[14:32]and then it goes on from there with a lot of other memories, obviously. And all my family coming
[14:36]and going. And that's the ghost metaphor of everybody kind of slipping in and out. So, oh, amazing.
[14:43]Are you working on another novel now? Oh, yeah, this one. This one is, I'm laughing because it's
[14:50]funny, I guess, I hope. But it's a menopausal Nancy Drew. It's also the reason I'm laughing is because
[14:57]it's so many obstacles in this book because it's Nancy Drew is, you know, and she's 48. So she's
[15:04]is also going through life changes. And life hasn't gone the way as, you know, she had this
[15:09]idyllic childhood. And, you know, life isn't as easy when you're a middle-aged woman as it was when
[15:14]you're 18. But Nancy Drew is still in the copyright world. She'll never, the copyright will never be in
[15:21]the public domain like all the other like the Jane Austens, etc. So I'm trying to work my way around
[15:27]how to write it and still be Nancy Drew. So I'm doing a lot of so. I'm having to listen to my own
[15:34]advice and keep going. I've got the book written. I'm just trying to figure out how to
[15:38]finish it. So yeah. So sometimes you come up against your own self when you're working on things.
[15:44]So can you call her like Nancy Blue or something? I've tried that version. I've tried.
[15:51]And you have working a little bit now where she's a little more delusional. So it's kind of fun.
[15:56]I've never worked with an unreliable narrator. And it's actually kind of fun. So
[16:02]yeah, it's interesting. It was a woman can be somewhat unreliable anyway. So why not? So we'll see.
[16:08]Anyway, I'm on a nice raft. So let's go back to for a second to surviving the writing life.
[16:14]All right. And some of your secrets. So what are some of the secrets? Pi button chair,
[16:20]crafty craft like all of these works. Like give us a couple secrets, not the pretend ones that don't
[16:25]exist. But I love this one too. The five stages of rejection to Nile, anger, bargaining, depression,
[16:33]perseverance, or pious or veerance. Like what should we know? What do you know now that you wish
[16:40]you'd known and like what are some of the most important things to take away from this book?
[16:45]Well, yeah. I think each chapter probably is some sort of a secret, so to speak. But I guess the
[16:50]just came to mind as you were mentioning some of the chapters in the book was having an agent.
[16:57]And you know, so many students asked me or even just people in an audience say like where we were
[17:02]at the book festival. They asked, why do I need an agent? Why can't I just send it to an editor?
[17:08]Or, you know, get self published or just things like that. And you know, my experience,
[17:12]like I said, I've had three. And not because it just different things change. Like my first one didn't,
[17:18]you know, do memoir. So I switched to a new agent for that. And I told the other story about
[17:23]the other one. But each one has provided me some sort of guidance that I wouldn't have had
[17:30]in the professional world. Because there is the business side of writing. And I go into that,
[17:35]you know, how it ends up becoming a business and not just this creative fun and arduous process
[17:41]to get a book written. And agents were have been very helpful. It doesn't even seem like the
[17:48]right word. But like, for instance, my first agent, there was a contract issue. And without her,
[17:55]you know, I'd probably be, you know, living on the street now because she worked
[17:59]everything out so that I lost no money and got another book deal. And you know, things just got,
[18:05]you know, very, I just sort of got to be there as the person who just, you know, watched it happening.
[18:11]And she was able to handle that because she had 32 years of experience in that world of the
[18:15]business and dealing with the publishing houses. And, you know, it was penguin. So it was like the
[18:20]biggest house who probably had the best attorneys and things like that. So it was all well done.
[18:25]And then I think also, I would also suggest that, you know, I think it's so, my favorite chapter
[18:31]title, I guess, is the joy of rejection. And I think because rejection is so easy to just say,
[18:38]oh, well, I guess I'm not a good writer. And that whole subjectiveness of how, you know, subjectivity
[18:44]of how it is a business. And so it is black and white. But there is still, you know, it is still
[18:51]subjective. So even though an editor is on the business side of it, it is about what they feel
[18:57]when they read it and how it makes them cry when they're on an airplane, you know, coming back
[19:04]from, you know, a trip and they're busy reading all these manuscripts that were sent into them.
[19:08]And to just also understand, there's a lot of people sending in books and writing and
[19:15]just keep it going. Just keep, you know, keep, you know, I, the one bit of advice I did for myself
[19:21]that was always been helpful is just keep, you know, keep it out, keep whatever you're submitting,
[19:27]whether it's a short story or a book out with somebody else, you know, when you get a rejection,
[19:32]you know, make sure you have more than one out there. So when you get one rejection, you could
[19:34]think, oh, I still have those two out there that I'm wanting to hear from. And just always keep
[19:39]that process going. How like a little factory, I guess. So you have to have your own little business
[19:43]side. So yeah, that would be my bits of secrets there. What about driving in divorce while writing
[19:51]a novel? That's another one. Yeah, that was fun. And that was actually, you know, part of life,
[19:56]obviously, gets in the way. And we can't do much about,
[20:00]but just persevering again, going through that,
[20:04]you know, especially at divorce,
[20:05]I was, you know, you get a little crazy.
[20:08]And so I was really just trying to,
[20:11]you know, it's determined,
[20:12]well, I'm gonna get a book published no matter what,
[20:15]but obviously there's a rejection in the process.
[20:18]And then I'll obviously I'm going through a major rejection
[20:21]and kind of keeping your sanity,
[20:23]but allowing yourself that space to also be a human
[20:28]and realize that, you know, life does get in the way,
[20:31]but we can, you know, still keep believing in our work
[20:35]and focus on, that was a big escape for me to write
[20:39]and focus on that.
[20:40]Sometimes like I said, I was a little manic
[20:42]in the sense of I'm determined,
[20:45]but also it was a great place to go.
[20:47]It was like, you know, my book and my writing
[20:49]is something that does stay with me, you know,
[20:53]sometimes it can be a little, little mean to me, I guess.
[20:56]But for the most part, it's really there, you know,
[20:59]and isn't gonna, isn't gonna leave me.
[21:01]So finding solace in some of that.
[21:04]And then stepping away from it,
[21:05]I realized I got so busy with, you know,
[21:07]personal things that also realizing that when I came back,
[21:11]it was still there waiting for me again.
[21:13]And I think the writing is loyal,
[21:14]even though sometimes it can be a little rude,
[21:16]but it can also be very loyal and show up for you
[21:20]when it, you know, when you, when you show up for it,
[21:22]it shows up for you.
[21:23]So, and tell me, tell the story again,
[21:28]I know you wavered between making your own pie crust
[21:32]and store-bought and tell the story with your sister-in-law,
[21:35]cause that was so funny.
[21:36]And also sort of your best practices
[21:39]that to speak for baking pies for other pie bakers out there.
[21:43]Oh my gosh, the sister-in-law story was I had my,
[21:47]my brother and sister-in-law came to visit
[21:49]and I thought, oh, this, in my brother,
[21:52]I mean, my husband and his brother
[21:53]didn't get along very well, but I thought,
[21:55]well, this would be a great, like a chicken-pop pie
[21:58]is a great sort of like bringing everybody together meals.
[22:01]So, and I was, you know, pretty good at making,
[22:04]this is my early days of pie baking.
[22:05]So I hadn't made that many pies,
[22:07]but I was really good at chicken-pop pie.
[22:09]It was my favorite.
[22:10]So I made this a big chicken-pop pie
[22:12]and the family was doing, you know, their thing.
[22:15]And when dinner was over,
[22:16]my sister-in-law was in the kitchen with me,
[22:18]helping me clean the dishes.
[22:20]And I always, when people said,
[22:23]oh, did you make your own pie crust?
[22:24]I just always said, oh no, you know,
[22:27]easy as pie, that's a lie.
[22:30]I, you know, all he just bought pills
[22:32]but very pie crust that came in the box.
[22:34]And I said, taste this is good, it's fine.
[22:37]And so when my sister-in-law,
[22:38]and there was like this little competition
[22:40]always sort of between obviously all of us siblings.
[22:43]And so when we were in the kitchen
[22:46]and she said the same thing everybody does,
[22:48]which is how did you make your own pie crust
[22:50]out of my mouth before I even knew it was coming out
[22:55]of my mouth came the lie.
[22:57]Yes, I did.
[22:59]At the same time, I heard her hit the little can lid
[23:05]for the trash can and I knew the pill is very red box
[23:08]was sitting on the tops.
[23:11]She didn't say anything, she was my first one that I am.
[23:15]And she didn't say anything
[23:17]and I didn't correct my lie, but I should have.
[23:20]We went on about our business
[23:22]and I went out when they left town
[23:24]and bought myself a quiz in heart
[23:26]and learned how to make pie crust
[23:28]so that from then on I always made my pie crust from scratch
[23:32]so I wouldn't have said the lie, I guess.
[23:35]And you know, I had, it took a long time for me
[23:37]to learn again, it was sort of that perseverance.
[23:40]It took me a long time to learn how to make a pie crust.
[23:43]I tried and tried and tried.
[23:46]I kept coming up with these dry blobs
[23:48]or I'll be there to be too wet and soggy
[23:50]and then the crust would be tough
[23:53]or it would be so dry that when I rolled it out
[23:56]I ended up with like a Frankenstein crust
[23:58]and you know, all pieced together.
[24:01]And so it was just really over time with practice
[24:06]and even still, I mean, it's funny last night
[24:08]I was making a pie crust
[24:10]and I was using a new recipe
[24:12]because I wanted to just try a couple of things
[24:14]with this other recipe I had from food 52,
[24:17]you know, they had this recipe.
[24:19]I thought I'd try that pie recipe
[24:21]just because it was a little different pie crust recipe.
[24:24]And I was, you know, testing to see how it was coming
[24:29]the dough was coming together and I thought
[24:32]I could add a little more water
[24:34]and I was always that like fine line
[24:35]between too much and too little
[24:38]and I realized even then I'm like,
[24:39]I'm still trying to find that perfect moment
[24:43]when I know exactly when it comes together.
[24:47]And I think that comes, there's the same for writing
[24:50]as you feel like, oh, I think I've got it
[24:53]and then you might try one more draft
[24:56]and to add a little more of something
[24:57]and it's not quite right or it feels like maybe this is it
[25:02]and then sometimes you go too far and it's not, you know,
[25:05]you know, you took out the things you shouldn't have taken out
[25:07]and so yeah, I feel like it's a constant learning process
[25:11]I think writing is too.
[25:12]I'm always learning more
[25:13]and in fact, I'm taking a,
[25:14]I've mentioned my pie guru in the book.
[25:17]She's the person who I have the lemon meringue pie
[25:19]Kate McDermott and she wrote Art of the Pie,
[25:22]which is also memoir and cookbook
[25:24]and I'm taking an online class with her again
[25:27]on Sunday with a for Tarte Tarte.
[25:30]I can never say it right, it's French.
[25:32]I don't know French either and I'm studying that too.
[25:34]So, so anyway, yeah, that's,
[25:37]that's what I think pie pie crust is sort of that metaphor
[25:41]again, trying and trying and you know,
[25:44]just keep learning, keep learning the process.
[25:46]I think that's why I like writing as you keep learning.
[25:48]It's amazing.
[25:49]Amy, thank you.
[25:50]Thank you for sharing your secrets.
[25:52]Thank you for this great book.
[25:53]Thank you for inspiring people to write.
[25:56]I think that is such a like, I don't know.
[25:58]It's such an important role people play
[26:00]because what people produce is so important
[26:03]and then goes on to help so many other people.
[26:05]So to be the person ushering that work along
[26:09]in any stage of the journey is something
[26:11]that I think is really important.
[26:13]So anyway, I love what you're doing.
[26:15]Thank you.
[26:15]Thank you very much, Zebi.
[26:16]This is a lot of fun and I became all your great questions
[26:19]and letting me go on and on.
[26:20]No, I loved it.
[26:21]I was like, oh great.
[26:22]I'll just sit here and listen.
[26:23]This is amazing.
[26:23]Yeah.
[26:24]So thank you.
[26:26]You're great hope to cross that again.
[26:28]Okay, bye bye.
[26:31]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[26:33]Don't have time to read books.
[26:34]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[26:37]at Zebi Owens and at Moms.
[26:38]Don't have time to read books.
[26:40]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[26:42]and sign up for my virtual book club
[26:44]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[26:46]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[26:48]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[26:50]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[26:52]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.