Jamie Fiore Higgins, BULLY MARKET: My Story of Money and Misogyny at Goldman Sachs
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[0:58]Jamie Fury Higgins is the author of Bully Market my story of money and misogyny at Goldman Sachs
[1:04]This was guest hosted by Juliana Goldman of Mama Den
[1:07]Jamie worked as a managing director at Goldman Sachs one of just eight percent of Goldman Sachs employees to earn the managing director title
[1:14]She was the highest ranking woman in her department an active member of the women's network committee
[1:19]Fiori Higgins spent her work days running the trainee and internship programs
[1:23]recruiting and managing top equity clients and a hundred billion dollars in stock
[1:28]Living in New Jersey with her husband and four children
[1:30]She is a trained coach works with teens to hone in on their leadership skills high school and college graduates as they begin careers and
[1:37]Professional as they navigate the workforce also those in midlife looking to reinvent themselves
[1:42]Jamie Fury Higgins author of Bully Market my story of money and misogyny at Goldman Sachs. Thank you
[1:49]Thank you for having me Jamie just to get started
[1:52]I want to tell you how this book was about a lot of things
[1:55]But the word that I just kept coming back to in my mind was how brave it was and just brava to you for
[2:01]for
[2:02]Calling out what you saw in a very open and honest way
[2:07]Can you tell us and tell tell our listeners about Bully Market and what it's about?
[2:13]Sure, so Bully Market is about my 18-year career at Goldman Sachs
[2:20]I started right out of college undergrad
[2:23]The big joke was I didn't even know really what Goldman Sachs did. I actually wanted to be a social worker
[2:29]I had battled some health issues as a kid and really appreciated
[2:34]Doctors and nurses and physical therapists and social workers. That's what I wanted to do and my parents had different plans for me
[2:41]And I can't blame them, but they grew up in poverty and really
[2:45]Wanted their kids to kind of make the kind of inroads
[2:48]They had financially pulling themselves at a poverty so for them
[2:52]The mantra was every generation has to do better
[2:55]So my directive was get the best page out possible and in 1998
[3:00]That was Wall Street and then of course if you wanted Wall Street you really wanted Goldman Sachs. So I got there
[3:08]40 interviews for zero
[3:11]Not knowing anybody and I started my career there and I did very well
[3:16]And I always like to say that I did well because I had a really good work ethic
[3:20]And I am smart, but I was really good at looking the other way and shutting up
[3:25]And so what I observed was during my career having to do a lot of that
[3:29]Which really went against my morals remember wanted to be a social worker and in the end the paycheck wasn't really worth the pain
[3:36]And I risked almost losing my family
[3:39]Losing myself in the whole process and finally found a way to kind of return to myself back again
[3:45]Which meant leaving Goldman Sachs. So this
[3:49]Book is about my experiences and my exploration of
[3:54]Why I endured what I endured there
[3:56]Why I perpetuated what I perpetuated and how I think that we really need to do better for the next generation of working women
[4:04]And I can't wait to get into all of that. Why did you write it
[4:09]In like why did you decide
[4:11]To write the book a lot of people would have had your experience and said
[4:14]Okay, I'm just gonna go put the past behind me. Why did you decide to write a first-person
[4:22]Account it wasn't my plan when I first left
[4:27]What I found myself doing I was really fortunate that I had this kind of sabbatical to enjoy my kids
[4:32]When I left Goldman I had four kids ages seven and under and I would share with people anecdotes
[4:38]I was a bit of a unicorn because
[4:41]Either the moms were kind of still working or a lot of the moms hadn't worked in quite a while
[4:46]And so here I was 40 years old stopped working and people would ask me why and I would tell them a little anecdote
[4:51]It's about what I experienced. Don't get me wrong knowing it was a little toxic
[4:56]But seeing their incredulous reaction really kind of showed me how really it was
[5:01]Pretty extraordinary environment
[5:03]And then around me me too is happening all these other social justice movements and I said wow
[5:09]We really live in a world now where there's an encouragement for
[5:12]Authentic stories which was a polar opposite of my experience of Goldman because at Goldman
[5:17]I was always kind of playing the part and lying and not being myself
[5:21]So I said, you know, I'm gonna just put it down and I feel like this is really
[5:27]Kind of going back to returning to myself
[5:30]I was a shell of who I was when I left Goldman
[5:33]I always felt like I had a muzzle on because I was always looking the other way not speaking up
[5:39]Not articulating my concerns and so now I'm kind of doing a complete 180 ripping it off
[5:45]I just
[5:46]Putting it all out there because I really feel like our stories are more similar than different
[5:51]And I feel like I'm not afraid of Goldman anymore
[5:54]I'm not afraid of what anyone thinks of me
[5:56]And I really do feel like my story is gonna help more people than it's gonna hurt
[6:02]Me by maybe having some people who don't know me that well think less of me
[6:06]I'm okay with that. And did you have to sign an NDA when you left or or like how did you get around some of the
[6:13]Privacy issues or in the in the book
[6:16]So when I left Goldman I left on my own so there was no
[6:20]Severance package or separation agreement with goodies that you usually have to sign your life away for those goodies
[6:26]I did have a managing director contract
[6:29]The language was pretty punitive, but I actually brought it to a lawyer
[6:33]And the view was that we are all entitled to talk about our experiences
[6:41]So
[6:42]Under her direction and it was really aligned with what I wanted to do
[6:45]I didn't want to use anyone's names. This isn't about shaming anyone. This is about just bringing to light
[6:52]The type of environments that happen at a lot of these large institutions
[6:56]So since I did not use anyone's names since I made composite characters
[7:02]I compressed time for narrative pacing. That was all
[7:07]From my attorney's perspective within my rights and then my publisher agreed as well
[7:11]Going back. Let's start it to really dig into your experience. When did you feel like it started to change you?
[7:18]Was it 9-11? Was it before that?
[7:21]It really stuck the environment really started to change my character when I got promoted
[7:28]I feel like and I don't need promoted to managing director per se
[7:32]But first got my first manager position. I feel like don't get me wrong before that
[7:37]I observed a lot of the nonsense on the desk
[7:40]I like to call the white noise of Wall Street
[7:43]the kind of discriminatory comments the sexist
[7:47]You know jokes all that stuff
[7:49]But once I was seen as a threat
[7:51]That's when I really feel like
[7:54]The kind of abuse towards me the anti was up
[7:57]And then therefore the request from Goldman Sachs was for me to shut up
[8:02]And that's what I had really felt like
[8:04]Okay, Jamie now you're in the big leagues in order to survive you not only have to
[8:10]Denied the bad things that happened to you
[8:12]But then also when women would come to me with their own complaints. I was advised listen
[8:18]You could support her, but then it's your head or hers who you protecting well young kids at home
[8:24]I protected myself so I really feel like
[8:27]As I ascended the ranks that was kind of the almost
[8:32]erosion of my morals
[8:34]And when that you had just suffered a miscarriage, right?
[8:37]And there was a pretty powerful moment where you said that there was part of you that was kind of relieved
[8:42]That you had that you didn't have children and you had this promotion
[8:47]And I felt like that was so relatable for any woman who you know who wants to have kids
[8:53]But also is on a
[8:55]A career trajectory. Yeah, that's right. So my first pregnancy ended in miscarriage early on
[9:02]I had to take just a couple days off of work for a procedure
[9:06]And I got called into an office that next day
[9:09]That I was back and I was like oh my gosh, I'm gonna be in trouble
[9:13]And I was offered this manager position, but my my partner said, you know, I hope there's not going to be any distractions, right?
[9:20]And you know, he you know, wink wink, nod, nod, nod, nod, and
[9:25]I had this kind of twisted thought that I was like
[9:29]Glad I wasn't pregnant. Yeah, because it was almost like that's in my sick twisted mind and in that
[9:35]Environment it was like that was the price that had to be paid that was the sacrifice
[9:40]My feeling was if that pregnancy had stuck, maybe I would not have gotten that initial manager promotion
[9:47]I never know right
[9:49]But it also I think then speaks to the world and the culture that you were just getting
[9:54]Suck deeper into
[9:57]When I think about these kind of cultures, it feels like quicksand
[10:00]you know, and you just get it's hard, it's hard not to be brought down.
[10:05]Yeah. Yeah. I think because not only are you making good money and for my family,
[10:11]that was a really big deal. I talk about making them proud, but also just the prestige of it all.
[10:16]Like, oh my gosh, you know, I was like, look at my kid's sister working at Goldman Sachs.
[10:22]And how did she get a job at Goldman Sachs? It was a job everyone wanted. So, you know,
[10:27]you're being treated poorly. You have to treat others poorly, but at the same time,
[10:33]you're filled with so much pride because of what you're contributing to your family.
[10:38]It just puts you in a very difficult situation. Totally. And even once you had children,
[10:45]it just like ignited that hustle fire even more you write about. Yeah. Because I felt like
[10:52]well, now, you know, in those early years, I felt like I was making sacrifices for my family of
[10:58]origin. Well, now it was like I wanted to provide for the family I was creating with my husband.
[11:03]So, you know, if I was giving up on Harley seeing them, I'd talk about how I had wanted to
[11:11]use the lactation rooms to pump for them. And I was based, I was advised that that wouldn't be
[11:16]a good decision for my career. And so, I had this line. I'm like, well, what's the best way to
[11:22]provide for your kids bonuses? You know, bonus does not breast milk. And so, I really, really wanted
[11:28]to focus on it. I think part of me to make me feel okay with all I was giving up as a mother.
[11:34]Well, at least I'd have this to show for it. I would have this title. I would have this career.
[11:40]When you talk about the lactation rooms that reminded me of some like this one thread throughout
[11:45]the book that was so uncomfortable, which was the times that you would go to HR or employee
[11:52]services. And there would be like a back channel, back to your management or back to your boss.
[11:58]So, when you went and requested the lactation room, your boss said, oh, I hear you need the
[12:03]lactation room. You need to be on the trading floor. Yeah. Yeah. And I really think that situation
[12:10]really shows the kind of smoke and mirror campaign that happens at some of these large organizations.
[12:16]Because I do believe when I signed up for the lactation rooms and it ended up on some person
[12:22]in HR's checklist, I'm sure she told my boss to follow up with me because the firm said we want
[12:29]to support her, right? Like, I think that was really probably what that person thought that he
[12:33]if she was doing. But at the same time it had the complete opposite effect. So, it's that kind of,
[12:39]they have these processes in place. They have these people focused on this cause. We get in reality,
[12:46]the opposite happens. And then later after your fourth child, right, you came back and
[12:52]colleagues were mowing at you when you were back to pump. And at that point you were, I mean,
[12:59]you could, I'd love for you to talk about this a bit more, but empowered to say that you were
[13:03]going to do this on your own terms. Because after your first maternity leave, you were like,
[13:07]okay, I just am not going to breastfeed anymore. I can't, I can't do this.
[13:12]That's right. And so when I had my fourth, it was kind of like, this is it, like, this is my
[13:18]opportunity to kind of have this experience. And Goldman has his lactation rooms and damn it,
[13:24]I'm going to use them. I'm going to use them like they're supposed to be used. So, at that point,
[13:29]you know, other things that happened in my career that I was feeling a little more confident
[13:34]that like I didn't care what they thought. And so I did use a lactation room. And my partner
[13:40]never said anything to me. But when I first started using them, I would find trinkets at my desk,
[13:45]milk cartons, a little stuffed cow, which was supposed to be a gift from my daughter. And then
[13:51]when I would get up, they would move at me, you know, gesture like the whole bed. And when I would
[13:56]get to that lactation room, when I finally got to those lactation rooms and use them, I noticed how
[14:02]they were really empty. So that it made me think, wow, there's a lot of women who are making the
[14:07]same decision I did. Yeah, that's such an interesting observation. It's such a broey culture. And you
[14:15]write really honestly about navigating that broey culture and figuring out how to fit in. And you
[14:23]alluded to this before. But, you know, when when other women would come to you and say, okay,
[14:29]how do I, how do I deal with this? Like this manager is taking these guys to strip bars,
[14:35]but he's not doing anything for us. You said, you know, maybe he has something different planned
[14:40]for the women. And you write, I tried to believe my words, but I knew better. Yeah, yeah. And so
[14:47]that was always that kind of hard bit for me because it was still that part of me that
[14:52]22 year old who wanted to be the social worker who wanted to help people who wanted to support
[14:57]people. But yet, you know, I, but I would, I would lie because I knew really what was going on. And
[15:06]so in order, what I found was in order to be successful at Goldman and to rate like rice to those
[15:12]ranks, it was a lot about assimilation. It was basically just parenting and going along with
[15:18]whatever the person and power said. So even though I was a woman and on some level of role model
[15:23]for these younger women, I really wasn't bringing my own sensibilities and perspectives to the
[15:30]table because anytime I tried to, I was pushed back and I was, so I had to tow the party line.
[15:36]Have you gone back to any of these women and apologized or talked to them about
[15:42]your shared experience? Yeah, a couple women have reached out to me and the reactions were a little
[15:51]one was almost relieved because when she heard about what happened to me and how when I eventually
[16:00]did go to HR, when I finally did complain, how as you would remark, like there were back channels
[16:06]and I kind of got in trouble for it. This one one would reach out to me. She goes, oh my gosh,
[16:11]now I understand what happened to my career. But I was so confused. Like I, I was experiencing
[16:18]this harassment. I didn't know what to do. She didn't work for me at the time. I didn't know
[16:24]at the time she had gone to HR. She had, we hadn't talked. I had known something was going on
[16:30]without telling me she went to HR. She said, Jamie six months later, my reviews went down at six
[16:35]months later, I was fired. And I always wanted to figure out like how I failed them. Like I tried
[16:43]so hard for this other woman. She had asked for my help. And I tried to an extent, you know,
[16:51]I went to bat for her. She was getting harassed by a male colleague. I went to bat for her.
[16:57]I was told she was just a drama queen. I pushed back a little bit more. And I was told,
[17:02]listen, you have to stop helping these people or you know what, like it's going to cost you.
[17:07]And I'm calculating your bonus right now. So think again. And for her, she felt that I
[17:13]really did let her down. And so she was supportive. She's like, I'm really happy you wrote this book.
[17:18]And I'm glad to see that, you know, these conversations are happening. But I got to remind you what
[17:23]happened to me and to that, you know, and I, and I owned it because what I, what I did was wrong.
[17:29]I'm just so glad I wrote the book though, because now I really understand why the kind of
[17:34]bigger themes that we're at play. Yeah, I know. I'm sure there's, you know, there's catharsis
[17:40]and there is ownership. One of, you know, going back to this theme of bravery, you wrote also
[17:45]about an affair, your affair with a boss, right? Talk about why you felt it was important to
[17:53]include that and also important to include the detail as well. So for me, this book was really an
[18:02]exploration of how large organizations wield their power and how in order to survive in
[18:10]some of these organizations, you really have to change who you are. So for me, if I'm going to shine
[18:18]a light on this, I want to shine a light in every corner and crack. So I didn't want it just to be
[18:24]what I adored, but also the things that I did. And, you know, my biggest, my biggest regret
[18:31]was the infidelity. And I felt like I needed to go there because it would have been
[18:39]disingenuous for me not to because that really was the moment that I, you know, people say,
[18:45]well, when's the moment that you knew it was time to leave? It was when my daughter called to me,
[18:51]when I was in the middle of carrying on with this guy. I mean, that's really the moment. So
[18:55]I have to say all of it. And I think that's really important because you can't just tell some of it.
[19:01]I think if you're really going to talk about how your morals and your character unravel,
[19:08]you have to talk about every bit of it. Because that's the point in these corporate situations,
[19:14]Julianne, it's not just about work. It's all encompassing in your entire life. So that I really
[19:21]think is important to illustrate because it's not just, okay, yeah, you know, you can't be that
[19:27]type of person at the office that doesn't help out women when they're getting harassed or assaulted.
[19:34]And then go home and be this like happy, go lucky spouse and mother. It takes its toll and it
[19:40]bleeds. And you know, what I found too, even in my responses from my readers, I've heard from so many
[19:47]partners of people who work in these kind of high power jobs, whether it's finance or consulting
[19:53]or law. And they've said to me, I understand my partner more because now I understand what they
[20:00]day and how that's kind of eating away at them and why they're acting the way they are at home.
[20:07]Do you feel like one of the people in your audience for this book was your husband?
[20:13]Oh, 100%. I mean, he's been he's been support. I would have never, you know,
[20:17]going back to the question about the attorney and stuff and making sure I was like, you know,
[20:22]bulletproof in terms of Goldman, my biggest people were my parents, my siblings and my husband,
[20:28]and making sure that they were okay with it. And, you know, Dan really went through a lot.
[20:34]I mean, for a guy who never even worked in their offices, that place had such an effect on his life.
[20:41]So he's been nothing but supportive and I'm so grateful for him and for our marriage therapist
[20:49]who really helped him and me understand that that infidelity had nothing to do with him or that guy.
[20:57]It was just an escape for a strung out woman who was jamming her, you know, square peg into a round hole
[21:06]every day, day in and day out for 18 years and she just snapped. And it was a bad choice and it could have
[21:13]been it could have been other bad choices. It just happened to be the bad choice of this man.
[21:19]You talk about that escape with your work husband in the book piece.
[21:24]And I always felt like it was leading up to something and I don't want to give too much away,
[21:30]but I thought that this was a really a fascinating storyline because for anyone who's worked in this
[21:35]kind of corporate environment, you know, you have like your work wife, your work husband,
[21:39]it's platonic, but there is like a real camaraderie of being in the trenches together.
[21:45]Have you heard from him since this book came out?
[21:48]I have not. I never heard. Yeah. So I, you know, I talk about how our relationship kind of
[21:56]unraveled in the book. I did reach out to him that following holiday season, wrote a letter,
[22:01]trying to reconnect, never heard back. And so I do, you know, Google stalk him and he's doing what
[22:10]he wanted to do away from finance away from Goldman Sachs, so I can only hope he's happy because
[22:17]I certainly am being away from there. So for women in finance, what do you think, you know, we're
[22:24]at this time now where five years after me too, almost three years since the start of the pandemic,
[22:30]like what do you think has changed or has anything changed for women in this industry?
[22:38]I think some things have improved in my book. I talk about an assault that happened to me.
[22:44]I would like to think today that would not be tolerated at all. I have the heard from hundreds
[22:51]of people since my book have come out. Many of them women that a lot of these themes still
[22:58]are happening, especially issues around motherhood. Yeah. You know, motherhood being a disease
[23:04]issues about HR and not being supportive. I mean, even, you know, I've had some women's groups
[23:13]at different firms reach out and want me to speak and then guess what? It gets pulled
[23:20]because of different pressures there under. So to me, I find it so fascinating that even when these
[23:29]women want to join together and have a conversation to talk about it, they're being silenced now
[23:35]from it. You know, I'm not being silenced anymore, but they're being silenced. So, you know, do I
[23:40]think the bigger, you know, issue? Yeah, but then I laugh because a couple of friends in my
[23:45]word of conference a couple months ago and they were still going to strip clubs. So a lot of this
[23:49]stuff is still alive and well, what concerns me the most is the reluctance to talk about it.
[23:58]Yeah. Because if we don't talk about it, I share perspectives. That to me shows the bigger
[24:04]powers that play that really don't want to make a change. Well, and I think there, and I talk
[24:10]about this a lot, but I think there's such power in personal narrative. And when I've talked openly
[24:17]about my experience in TV news and I know you talk about this in response to bully market,
[24:23]there is just so much power in people having their experiences and feelings validated.
[24:29]And it empowers them to be able to speak up and push for change. I mean, that was, that's
[24:35]the me too movement. Exactly. Exactly. And so I'm hopeful. I mean, I've heard like I said from
[24:43]all these women who like feel more empowered to ask for things who are banding together with
[24:49]other women. I talked a lot in my book about in my time at Goldman, the women it was almost a
[24:55]zero-sum game where for one woman to succeed another woman had to lose, there was a structure
[25:01]in place that kind of made women forced a minority. You know, so you couldn't help on another.
[25:08]I think that's changing. And I think certainly people are starting to pay attention. And I've seen
[25:14]a lot of great commitments from some firms. I just wish, you know, kind of looking back and say,
[25:18]what'd it been great if Goldman had said, well, Jamie, this is quite a book. Let's have lunch,
[25:25]let's talk about it. They just hired a new person in their, you know, HR department. They wouldn't
[25:30]that have been an amazing opportunity to come, you know, talk about it to really put situations
[25:35]on the table. Mine's a unique story. I'm not suggesting every woman at Goldman Sachs has had that
[25:40]story, every woman on Wall Street, but it happens enough that I wish these large organizations would
[25:47]respond to these stories with a curiosity to explore it and try not to repeat history.
[25:56]Totally. But that acknowledge is a problem. Yeah. So one other, I'd love to talk about, you know,
[26:02]this your identity was wrapped up in your career and your life at Goldman Sachs. And it, you know,
[26:08]one day that ended. And you write a bit about kind of, figuring out yourself, where you belong,
[26:17]a mother of four kids, like right after you leave your dealing with puke, diarrhea, you're
[26:24]like the stomach flow. Yeah, exactly. Like maybe I should be back at work. But what advice do you have
[26:29]for women is who have children and are trying to figure out how to marry this ambition
[26:39]with their, what they feel they owed to their family and to their identity as a mother?
[26:46]How did you navigate that? So when I left Goldman, I was so depressed because it was like even
[26:55]just being a managing director at Goldman, even though I never really bragged about it or anything,
[26:59]it just filled me with pride. That's what I was. That was kind of what validated me, you know,
[27:06]and then I felt like I was lost without it. And so then I said, okay, well, I got four kids,
[27:11]I'm going to throw myself into that. And then I'll never forget that first fall, which is usually
[27:16]the time of Goldman Sachs review season. I said to my husband, I think I need my first mom review.
[27:23]He's like, what? I'm like, well, I'm home. I think I need to figure out how I'm doing. And he's
[27:27]like, okay, well, like, what are you're like, what are we analyzing you on? I thought about it for a
[27:33]a second. I'm like, oh, my God, what do I analyze myself on my kids grades? Or like, that's bad.
[27:38]Like that's like, that's like not good. And so what I realized is as women, we
[27:45]throw ourselves into these roles, spouse, mother, worker, and we don't even carve out kind of for
[27:54]who we want to be in this world, you know? And so for me, my kind of journey hasn't authorized,
[28:01]I have to carve something out for myself. That's just mine. That is nothing to do with my partner,
[28:06]that is nothing to do with my kids. But even as nothing to do with the paycheck, like what is it?
[28:12]And so for me, I started writing and I started taking writing classes. And so
[28:18]my advice to women, because this is a problem on women face whether they work outside the home
[28:23]or not. Because then I have friends who kids go off to college and they're like, what's my identity?
[28:29]It's like, we have to make sure we have an identity that is completely independent
[28:35]from any person or organization. And, you know, I think that happens with, you know, creating
[28:41]something new for yourself, maybe if while you're working, or even if you are working, making sure
[28:48]you have a healthy boundary between who you are and what you do. So meaning right now, like,
[28:55]I'm a creative, I'm a writer. I like to talk and have conversations. That can be monetized
[29:01]or not. So when you approach your workplace, be like, hey, you might work for X, Y, Z from,
[29:06]but you really work for yourself most importantly. And you have that skill set and you have that
[29:12]knowledge base. That is, you know, right now working out for your employer, but also could be
[29:17]transferred to five other employers at any given time. So I think part of it is also just a mindset
[29:22]thinking of yourself as an independent entity and making sure you are doing things that align
[29:28]with the interests and the values of that independent entity, whether or not you get paid for it or
[29:33]not. I love that CEO self. It's a great CEO of self. Well, Jamie Fury Higgins, real quick, what's next
[29:42]for you? Is there a sequel? Is Bully Market coming to a theater near you? Oh, no, no,
[29:48]is Bully Market. We'll come to a theater near me someday. That would be cool. Right now,
[29:52]I'm really just enjoying any opportunity to spread the message and themes of the book.
[30:00]talking to amazing people like you. I'm in London. I'm going to be talking at a panel at the Financial Times conference about culture and banking.
[30:09]But while I was running the book, I also got my ouch training. So I work with professionals, women, men, all ages, all stages to kind of work on making sure that what they do along lines with who they want to be.
[30:28]And again, in the workplace at home and hobbies. So kind of any work I can do with my clients, speaking to you, I think that what I learned most, I've answered so many things from Goldman Sachs.
[30:43]I'm big takeaway was I was successful because of who I was, not because anyone from anyone person. I think that that really resonates with a lot of employees today. I think a lot of employees say feel stuck in their careers.
[30:59]And so I really enjoy working with them and getting them unstuck as well as just talking about the book. And I really appreciate your time.
[31:07]And if people want to feel unstuck it, do a website where they can find you. Yeah, it's Jamie Fuhr. He can stop calm. And there's a contact me and all that stuff.
[31:15]All right, fantastic. Well, Jamie Fuhr, again, thank you again and thanks for your bravery. Thank you.
[31:22]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at ZB Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[31:31]Also sign up for my newsletter at ZB Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[31:42]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.