Jodi Picoult and Jennifer Finney Boylan, MAD HONEY: A Novel
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[0:58]Jody Pico and Jennifer Finney are the co-authors of Mad Honey, a novel
[1:03]This was guest hosted by Allison Potaki
[1:06]Jody is the number one New York Times best-selling author of 28 novels
[1:10]Including which you are here small great things leaving time and my sisters keeper and with her daughter Samantha Vanleer to young adult novels
[1:18]Between the lines and off the page. I organized by the way a group of women to go see between the lines when it was an off-Broadway
[1:25]Produced by Darryl Roth and that was so much fun and Jody has been on this podcast
[1:29]I think twice before and is amazing. Anyway, Jody lives in New Hampshire
[1:34]Jennifer Finney-Bolan is the best-selling author of more than a dozen books
[1:39]She is the inaugural Anna Quinlan writer and residence at Barnard College of Columbia University and a
[1:45]2022 2023 fellow at Harvard University's Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study a
[1:50]Nationally known advocate for human rights. She is a trustee of Panamerica for many years
[1:55]She was the national co-chair of GLAD as well as a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times
[2:00]Hello everybody Allison Potaki here and I have the pleasure of chatting with Jody Pico and
[2:08]Jenny Jennifer Finney-Bolan
[2:11]authors of the wildly successful
[2:14]Mad Honey that just hit the bestseller list again for the ninth time this very morning that
[2:20]We're speaking congratulations and welcome Jody and Jenny. Thank you for being here. Thanks for having it
[2:26]Good morning. Hi Alice. Oh my goodness. Okay, so Jenny just told me that this whole experience of writing this book
[2:33]Meeting readers talking about this book
[2:36]Has been like a dream and I thought that the wording was interesting because of the back story
[2:42]How this book came to be can you just share with readers? How this book mad honey came to be? I can do that
[2:48]I had a dream that I was writing a book with Jody Pico. This happened five years ago in
[2:54]2017 and
[2:56]I literally I woke up from the dream and I thought
[2:59]That's very specific because you know my dreams are usually like I'm you know mud wrestling captain crudged or something
[3:06]But the turned out here's a book and I'm sure very in no time at all
[3:12]We're gonna give you a little summary of what what the book is about
[3:14]But I dreamed basically that the 32nd version of this book woke up got some coffee and
[3:22]Went on Twitter god bless it and
[3:26]tweeted out I just dreamed I was co-authoring a book with Jody Pico and
[3:31]With wouldn't you know at Jody Pico happened to be online at that very second and I got a DM
[3:39]Well, was this book about asked Jody Pico and I told her what I had
[3:44]dream and
[3:46]She responded L not LOL OMG. I think in fact. She said let's do it
[3:53]Well, it wasn't quite that simple, but in some ways it was that simple that we it's like we signed
[3:59]An unwritten agreement that we were gonna try to figure out a way of telling the story and telling it together
[4:06]Took a while for us to get to it took a couple years until we are each free
[4:11]But when when our calendar is cleared
[4:14]Thanks to covid in part. We got to work. I'm believable. I have the chills. Thank goodness in this case for Twitter
[4:21]Thank goodness. You saw this tweet. I said no one ever
[4:25]Well, you said it was my ever so it was it Jody
[4:29]So you when you guys when you began writing this together
[4:32]How did you craft the process there are two narrators?
[4:35]It's told from two different perspectives. How did you jump in?
[4:39]So the book basically in a nutshell is the story of Olivia McAfee who years ago was in an abusive relationship
[4:46]Left with her her infant son Asher to start over and when the book opens up
[4:52]Years of past Asher is now 18 and in high school
[4:56]Olivia is a beekeeper in rural New Hampshire and
[5:01]Asher is head over heels in love with Lily who's the new girl in school and
[5:05]At the end of the first chapter Asher calls his mom and says Lily's dead and he's being questioned by the police and
[5:12]Olivia really wonders whether or not the past ever stays in the past
[5:15]You know because she's thinking about cycles of abuse and how that manifests even though she tried to keep her son from it
[5:22]And it's really a book about whether or not the past can stay in the past and about identity and how we become the people
[5:27]We are in gender and all those rich things and we knew going into it that we were going to start with two narrative voices
[5:34]And we kind of decided early on that I would write Olivia the mom and Jenny would write Lily the dead girl
[5:40]And we also agreed very early on that we would each take one chapter from each other's
[5:46]Character and write that chapter and we wanted to do it to be able to inhabit
[5:50]You know each other's characters
[5:52]But also kind of as a fun game for all of our readers to say
[5:55]Okay, can you figure out which one of us swapped which one's you know
[5:58]We're with Jody chapters for Jenny's and vice versa
[6:01]And I will say that today. Oh, I actually jody this just in somebody wrote me recently and said
[6:06]Are these the two chapters that you switched and and they got her in so that's
[6:10]All right, so okay
[6:15]That's pretty good, but you know it was in many ways. It was it was that simple
[6:19]What made it more complicated was that we have very different writing styles and I think you know
[6:24]You know this as a writer when you are writing you're not analyzing how you write you sit down
[6:28]You just do the work well
[6:30]It's a little different when you have a co-writer
[6:31]So for example
[6:32]I am at the ultimate planner and Jenny is not a planner Jenny usually writes to let the story discover itself
[6:39]I pretty easily convinced her that we were going to have to create a very formal outline because
[6:45]In addition to the fact that we were telling a murder mystery and a courtroom drama and you can't get to the end of that
[6:51]And go oh, I don't know who did it
[6:53]You actually have to have a plan in addition to that
[6:56]Jenny was writing a character who literally is dead at the end of the first chapter
[7:00]And so we needed to think about how to bring in Lily's voice and the way to do it was to tell her story backward in time
[7:08]So you know the first chapter happens on a certain day in December
[7:12]The second chapter is not from Olivia's point of view
[7:14]It's from Lily's and it's the day that Lily dies. The next time we hear Lily
[7:19]It's a week before her death and then two weeks before her death and so on and so forth
[7:23]So while Olivia marches the story forward through the trial and the rest of the trial and all of that
[7:29]Lily's narrative explains why yeah, I think originally
[7:32]I mean, it's been long enough ago now that it's hard to exactly remember
[7:36]But I think originally I thought well, so jordy's chapters will begin the day of the murder
[7:42]And and go forward in time which in fact was true, but I thought well my chapters the Lily chapters
[7:48]Will start like a year earlier and I'll work up and my last chapter will be the day that she dies so that
[7:54]So that the book would would work out that way and what's funny is I thought and jordy, tell me if this is
[8:00]If you remember this the same way or not, I'm ever thinking yeah, but that's going to be too confusing
[8:06]You know to jump back to keep jumping back a year in time before
[8:10]and and so when j- it was and it was jordy's idea to have
[8:14]My chapters go backwards in time and at first. I thought I didn't think that's going to be too confusing
[8:20]Interestingly enough what I thought instead was I don't know how to write that
[8:24]I don't know how to do that and and well fortunately
[8:27]I listening to jordy fortunately because we had an outline
[8:30]And because we worked it all out in advance
[8:33]We just eventually we just had a great big kind of storyboard and it was my chapter jordy's chapter
[8:39]My chapter and we and one is going forward at the time what was going backwards and it it might sound
[8:45]Like a mess to your listeners and viewers who have read the book yet
[8:50]But in fact my hope is and readers and said so far it feels pretty seamless
[8:56]Not only in terms of negotiating the jumps in time, but also going between my voice and jordy's voice
[9:02]I think I definitely boil and I asked her a little bit and I was definitely pico
[9:10]I love that
[9:11]But it is I think that was the other big thing that I think we both went into this thinking awesome half the work
[9:16]I only have to write half the book. It was twice the work
[9:19]Absolutely
[9:21]Yeah, like Jenny would give me a chapter of hers
[9:24]And I would edit my way very heavily through it
[9:26]And she would do the same thing with mine to the point where now when I look at the book
[9:29]It is very hard for me to tell which phrase
[9:33]Jenny wrote which phrase I wrote because we really did
[9:37]You know get dirty. It has a lot. Seamless is seamless is the word. I would have used as well
[9:42]Before Jenny beat me to it
[9:44]So in many ways the plot also hinges on this question of the truth and
[9:50]Jo to you said the past but also a secret revealed that that is a real hinge point
[9:54]And we have mixed readership here where some have read the book perhaps some have not yet read the book though
[9:59]obviously
[10:00]have the book and are just going to start reading it today. So what can you say about that and
[10:05]sort of how it was writing with a big twist, a big reveal, and you know, how do you?
[10:11]So it's really about the difference between what's secret and what is private. And there are
[10:16]multiple twists in this book, which we won't disclose. Wouldn't be a book by Judy Pico if it didn't
[10:21]have multiple twists. And the twists in this book are awesome. So I hope if you haven't read the book
[10:28]when you get to those moments that your jaw will drop open. Yeah. I mean, are you really
[10:33]reading a book of mind if you don't throw it across the room at some point? Yeah. Yeah.
[10:38]People have thrown my books across the room too, but I think for different reasons,
[10:43]you know, what we wanted to do is to this book to me in many ways is also about what does it mean
[10:49]to be a woman in all incarnations of that? Because Jenny and I as women have had very different
[10:54]experiences in this country. And there is an element of that in the book. And we wanted to point
[11:01]out how we are far more similar than we are different. That is a resonating thread I think throughout
[11:07]the book. And to that space, the idea of what is secret and what is private is something we
[11:13]all have. Everybody who's listening to this right now, if I say to you, I want you to think about
[11:19]a time that you were afraid to reveal something to someone close to you because you thought it
[11:24]would change your relationship or end your relationship or alter it irrevocably in some way.
[11:29]Everybody has something going on in their house. Absolutely. You do too, Allison, right?
[11:33]And for everyone, it's different. And for Olivia, you know, she was a survivor of abuse for
[11:40]many years. And there's this question of whether or not she has to disclose that now. How many
[11:46]years have to pass from your abusive relationship before you are allowed to not call yourself a woman
[11:52]asterisk survivor of abuse, right? What about someone who has an abortion in their teens when
[11:58]they meet someone in their 30s? Do they need to disclose that? You know, at what point are you allowed
[12:03]to let go of those pieces of yourself? And so all the characters in this book have something
[12:10]that they are wondering about that is secret. The difference I think between what is secret and
[12:16]what is private in my mind before you jump in Jenny is the idea of shame. Something that you keep
[12:22]secret is usually something you're afraid to tell someone. Something that you keep private is really
[12:27]something that's just yours. You know, it may not be anyone else's business. Right. Well, just as a
[12:32]transgender woman, I can say that these are issues that I've thought about in a kind of a different
[12:37]way throughout my life. I went through transition a long time ago. Now, almost 25 years. And in
[12:44]my day to day existence, you know, I don't feel like a woman with an asterisk. I feel like a woman
[12:50]pretty much like other women in very late middle age to be generous. But it is also true that
[12:59]as someone who never had a girlhood in the way that you two did, I think about the past and whether
[13:08]the person that I was until my 30s is still part of me. And the answer is of course that person is
[13:14]part of me because who else would I be? And yet, I've been through enough change so that in a way
[13:21]I'm in many ways in the important ways. I'm both the different person and the same person. So
[13:26]this is in a different way. This is everybody in this book has something in their past. I mean,
[13:33]everybody that they're negotiating with. Can you leave it behind you forever or does it still
[13:39]keep coming back? And that's partially what is driving the murder mystery too. Here's Ashir,
[13:46]son of an abusive marriage. And we see him with Lily. I wrote most of the Lily parts and when
[13:56]they're together. I mean, they're very much in love. But there are these little flickers of
[14:01]anger management issues. Yeah. He's angry. So although that's going on. Yeah. Yeah. And it's
[14:09]it's a fun thing to play with. I think nowadays too. You know, we did write this during the pandemic
[14:14]when everyone was really learning how to reinvent themselves. And in many ways, that's what this is
[14:19]a testimony to to reinvention. So the title is Mad Honey. There we've got. So Jody's holding up her
[14:27]her be mug and Jenny. She knows her honey on her mantle. So how much honey did you eat while you
[14:32]are researching and writing? And more importantly, is that Jenny's showing us her Mad Honey.
[14:38]The sprinkle throughout are these amazing beef factoids, which just blew my mind. And I learned
[14:44]about apiary, which is beekeeping. Can you talk a little bit about the beekeeping, the bees,
[14:50]the title Mad Honey and all the honey. Yes, I can. And the recipes you included for the honey.
[14:56]I actually did not eat a lot of honey, but just probably a good thing. And retrospect, I actually was
[15:01]using all these milk and honey like body products. I was really into that one inspiration.
[15:06]Oh, just kind of funny. Yeah, totally. So most of the bee sections come in Olivia sections, which
[15:11]were more mind for the most part. So I was the one who did the research on bees. And it's worth
[15:16]saying that it was the only time I actually left my house during COVID before vaccines. I was
[15:21]terrified. I had asthma. I thought, I can't get this. And I went out every weekend to master beekeepers
[15:27]field in Vermont. And I would basically study what he was doing from six feet away with a mask on
[15:33]underneath my beekeeping. So everything that you read in there is true. I actually had someone
[15:40]write me yesterday saying, was all that true or can I just get it? You know who I am? My favorite
[15:48]facts about bees. This is probably one of my favorites. You know, everyone knows that girls run
[15:52]the bees. Right? That it's a queen. But what not everyone realizes is that if you are a bee doing
[15:58]any work in a hive, you are a female bee. You can be a worker bee. You can be a female bee. You can
[16:02]be a nurse. You can be an author bee. If you are not doing any work in a hive, you're a drone,
[16:08]you're a male bee. And really, drones do nothing but to complete the resources. They just sit
[16:12]around and eat the honey. And they live for one lousy day in their lives when the queen bee takes
[16:17]a maiden flight, at which point they zoom up after her into the air and the like six or seven
[16:22]fastest bees get to mate with her. The moment that a drone ejaculates in the queen, you can actually
[16:29]hear an audible snap as his genitals snap off and he falls to his death. And then he is replaced
[16:35]by another drone. And this goes on, this little origin in the air. And when the queen comes back,
[16:39]she has all the eggs she needs for the rest of her life, all the fertilized eggs. And which is
[16:44]really important because the queen's only job is to make more bees. And that happens for many
[16:48]years, but sometimes a queen gets sick or old and you need to replace it. When that happens,
[16:52]the nurse bees kind of know what this is going on. And they decide they're going to create a new
[16:58]queen. The way they do that is they basically go to a larva. If it is a fertilized egg larva,
[17:05]it would become a worker bee, a nurse bee, one of these female bees in the hive. And instead,
[17:12]they feed it only royal jelly. And if you feed that larva only royal jelly, it becomes a queen
[17:16]bee. And the hope is that she will have to kill the old sick queen and take over the hive.
[17:21]What's fascinating is that if the nurse bees choose an unfertilized egg larva, which would be a
[17:26]drone, a male bee otherwise, and they give it only royal jelly, it too becomes a queen.
[17:32]This is just so perfect. Yeah, it's really very cool. It's very cool. Yeah. And mad honey,
[17:39]the title comes from, again, something that is very real. When bees forage from roto dandrons and
[17:45]mountain laurel in the Nepal region, they create a certain kind of honey called mad honey,
[17:50]which tastes and looks and smells like regular honey, but actually can make it quite sick.
[17:54]It will, it's hallucinogenic. It will make you vomit and it will give you a terrible
[18:02]fevers and convulsions and seizures and in heart palpitations. And in some cases, we'll kill you.
[18:08]And it was actually used many, many years ago for biological warfare during ancient Greece and
[18:13]ancient Roman times. And I love that idea that something that seems sweet at first could have the
[18:19]power to do such damage. Kind of, you know, like love. Kind of like love. Kind of like love.
[18:26]So that's my, that's my bee stuffs. I love my bees. I love them. I'm so proud of the bees. Every
[18:32]time I look at honey, you know, another fun fact. Just again, this is is a murder mystery.
[18:41]Sherlock Holmes, old Sherlock Holmes in retirement. What did Sherlock Holmes do after he stopped being
[18:48]in detecting him? I know. I know. He was a beekeeper. He was a beekeeper. Apeary.
[18:52]So good. Oh, the bees. We have so much to learn from the bees, right? This is
[18:57]you. And one out of every four mouthfuls that you, that you use a sustenance is thanks to a bee.
[19:04]It's really mind blowing. I mean, there's, there's this whole book. There are these characters.
[19:08]There's this story, but just the bee facts alone. Just everybody needs to read and learn,
[19:12]learn about the bees and the mad honey. Well, I mean, the bee world is run by women.
[19:17]And so again, given that the book asks, among other things, the question of what does it mean
[19:22]to be a woman? And each of the, each of the bees on the hive has a role, but apparently that role
[19:30]can change if you have enough royal jelly. You know, so I think that that's going on too. The way
[19:37]in which the roles that we play as women, the identity that we have as women can really change
[19:43]over time. So all of that's going on. The bees, it, it's just the perfect metaphor. Now,
[19:47]I didn't know about the bees. That, that was going to be a thing when my original dream was not about
[19:52]the bees. My original dream was that there were, there was a girl who had been murdered and her
[19:58]boyfriend's mother.
[20:00]The boyfriend who'd been accused of the crime,
[20:02]the mother was wondering whether she can trust her son.
[20:06]And so the dream I had was the two voices,
[20:08]the mother and the dead girl.
[20:11]There was nothing but beats.
[20:13]Look, I had to do something.
[20:14]I had to earn my tea, right?
[20:15]Well, once we started, we started working.
[20:19]And Jody said, I've got an idea.
[20:21]I'm like, well, she's like, it's going to be a beat thing.
[20:24]I'm like, and I said this a lot of times.
[20:26]I don't know what you're up to, but I will follow you.
[20:29]I think there really was a lot of mutual trust.
[20:32]We just had to follow each other's leads in every way.
[20:36]And I have to say, doing this book with Jody was like,
[20:39]well, I hate to say a dream come true,
[20:42]but it really was exactly that.
[20:46]And it was hard work, but it was like a blind date
[20:50]because Jody, I had never met Jody when I had that dream.
[20:53]I didn't know her.
[20:55]So far as I know, we've never been in the same room together.
[20:59]Well, suddenly here we are, co-authors, collaborators.
[21:03]And now five years later, we're friends.
[21:06]And I mean, there were things we disagreed about in the plot
[21:10]and kind of minor things, and usually in those situations
[21:14]we compromised and let Jody have her way.
[21:17]And but it really, it really was cool.
[21:20]It went from this dream to something that was real.
[21:24]And it's been such a wonderful ride.
[21:27]I would do it all over again if we could.
[21:29]Amazing.
[21:30]Well, there we go.
[21:31]Is that in the works?
[21:32]Is that possible?
[21:33]What is your relationship like now?
[21:35]Oh, my God.
[21:36]If we found the right story, I would 100% do it.
[21:40]I loved right.
[21:41]It was a blast.
[21:42]It was the right story for us to collaborate on.
[21:44]And when you read it, you'll understand why, you know?
[21:46]But I know that it was, it could have gone quite badly.
[21:51]And I'm delighted to say it to you know.
[21:55]Yeah, but also like the reason I wanted to say yes so fast
[21:58]because I didn't know Jenny, but I knew her work.
[22:02]And I loved her work.
[22:03]And I know how talented she is as a creator and as a storyteller.
[22:09]And you know, for all of those reasons,
[22:11]I think it's really important to say for the people
[22:14]who are watching this.
[22:15]I got a lot of emails leading up to this book saying,
[22:19]oh, you're co-writing.
[22:20]Well, we know what that means.
[22:21]You're not really writing your books anymore.
[22:23]So I really blame James Patterson for rooting that for all of us
[22:27]because honestly, I think this is us at the top of our game.
[22:31]When Jenny would give me a chapter, I was always like,
[22:33]oh, God, it's so good.
[22:34]I got to do something just as good.
[22:35]So I was really motivated to make sure that I was never
[22:39]phoning anything in because I wanted to impress Jenny.
[22:42]Well, I had to impress you too.
[22:44]And to impress your readers because I mean,
[22:47]up to two of us, Jody is by far the author with more readers
[22:50]and more books and more eyeballs, you know, around the world.
[22:54]So in taking me along with on this adventure
[22:58]or going on this adventure together,
[23:00]I knew that I had an opportunity to find a bunch of readers
[23:03]whom I have never heard of me before.
[23:06]And so that was, I mean, it was really fun,
[23:08]but it was also a real responsibility
[23:10]that I had to live up to the challenge that I'd been given
[23:15]and the opportunity that I've been given.
[23:16]And so I mean, I do think it's important to let readers know.
[23:19]You know, sometimes when two people go right,
[23:21]it's because they both have the rest.
[23:22]You said twice the amount of work, not half the amount of work.
[23:26]Jenny, what are you working on now?
[23:27]And how can readers connect with you
[23:29]and keep up with your exciting news?
[23:31]Well, step one is a website of mine,
[23:35]Jennifer Boylum.net.
[23:36]And I try to post the latest things.
[23:38]What am I doing right now?
[23:39]I am celebrating Mad Honey and being just really,
[23:44]I mean, seriously, grateful for the ride of a lifetime.
[23:48]I am working on a couple new books,
[23:51]one of which is a memoir,
[23:54]which is essentially about the differences between men and women
[23:57]and manhood and womanhood,
[23:59]as I've experienced it over the last 25 years.
[24:02]I'm also, I keep, I had this idea for a novel
[24:06]about Amelia Earhart that begins on the last day of her life,
[24:10]supposedly, and in this novel,
[24:13]it's not the last day of her life.
[24:15]So I'm thinking about that.
[24:17]You can also find my columns and essays
[24:20]for the last 15 years.
[24:21]I was writing for The New York Times,
[24:24]so you can find me at New YorkTimes.com.
[24:27]And now I'm writing for The Washington Post.
[24:30]So if you go to WashingtonPost.com,
[24:33]you can also find the most recent columns
[24:36]that I've written, some of which are about gender,
[24:37]some of which are about politics, nothing about bees yet,
[24:41]but there's still time.
[24:42]Yeah, and fantastic.
[24:44]And Jody, you said in so many ways,
[24:46]you wrote this in your authors note at the back of Madhoney.
[24:48]In so many ways, my entire career has been about
[24:52]untangling the knots that society tangles itself in
[24:55]as we futilely attempt to separate the us from the them.
[25:00]So can you tell us about what knots you're untangling
[25:03]and what you're working on next?
[25:07]Yeah, ironically, I spent last year doing almost no writing
[25:11]of novels.
[25:12]I was working instead as a librettist.
[25:14]And so a lot of the work that I've been doing
[25:17]has been in the theater world.
[25:19]We are really excited because the between the lines,
[25:22]which debuted off Broadway,
[25:24]they cast the cast album is fantastic
[25:26]and is being released in January.
[25:29]We just found out that breathe,
[25:30]which is, I'm sorry, breathe,
[25:31]which is a musical I wrote during the pandemic
[25:34]is coming out as an audible theater piece right now.
[25:38]And the book thief, which debuted in the UK last year
[25:42]is transferring to two theaters next fall.
[25:45]So there's all this stuff going on in my theater life.
[25:47]And somehow I also have to finish this book
[25:48]that I started in which, in which I will convince you
[25:52]that Shakespeare did not actually write his plays,
[25:55]but a woman who got no credit and did.
[25:58]And there is no more love in it for that.
[26:00]Which, yeah, it's through some of this historical,
[26:03]and it's really, it's fascinating stuff.
[26:05]And it's really something I've been very vocal about,
[26:07]which is gender discrimination and publishing.
[26:10]I don't think people realize how far back it goes way back.
[26:13]This has been a blast.
[26:14]I hope readers enjoy the book.
[26:16]Jodie, I love you.
[26:17]I hope I see you soon.
[26:18]Love you too, Jenny.
[26:20]Jodie, bye bye bye.
[26:21]Jodie, can I just ask you one final question?
[26:25]You can't answer anything you want.
[26:26]I'm like, I want to tell you I'm a big fan of your write-to's.
[26:28]Oh, thank you.
[26:30]You're very, very sweet.
[26:31]So, Jodie, what advice would you have
[26:34]to aspiring writers?
[26:35]So, you know, I get this question all the time.
[26:38]And the first thing that you need to do is read
[26:40]because you really need to figure out
[26:42]how and where your work is going to fit into
[26:44]not just bookstore shelves, but a literary candidate.
[26:47]And then I always say that you need to somehow take
[26:52]a writing workshop course.
[26:54]The truth is it's actually gotten easier
[26:55]since I did it.
[26:56]You can do it at a school, you can do it online,
[26:59]you can do it at a bookstore, continuing ed.
[27:02]And the real reason to do that is you learn how to write on demand
[27:05]and you learn how to give and get criticism.
[27:08]And those are the two tools that a writer needs the most.
[27:11]You don't have to take writing workshop classes your whole life.
[27:14]You just have to do it until you are your own best editor.
[27:17]And then you need to actually carve out the time to write.
[27:20]I hear from so many people who say,
[27:22]ah, I've read all these books, you know,
[27:24]I love Stephen King's on writing and there's this,
[27:26]but I don't know what's, how do I do it?
[27:28]And I said, well, you know,
[27:29]the thing is you got to figure out what's right for you.
[27:31]What works for Stephen King is great for Stephen King.
[27:34]But that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for you.
[27:36]And case in point is this book, you know,
[27:38]what works for me as an author does not work for Jenny as an author
[27:43]where I would, we learned very quickly that like,
[27:46]and I didn't know this.
[27:46]I do a lot of pre writing in my head.
[27:49]I do it when I'm walking when I'm cooking,
[27:51]when I'm swimming, when I'm showering.
[27:54]I'm constantly running ideas and lines and dialogue.
[27:58]So when I sit down to write,
[28:00]I already kind of know where that chapter is going.
[28:03]Jenny does all that on the page.
[28:05]So her fifth draft looks like my first draft.
[28:09]And again, that was something that we had to be like,
[28:11]okay, wait a second, what's going on here?
[28:13]Oh, okay, that's how we write.
[28:14]Again, something we never thought about,
[28:16]because usually when you write alone, you don't.
[28:18]So I think again, it comes down to that,
[28:20]figuring out what works for you.
[28:22]There is no wrong way to be a writer.
[28:26]You just have to figure out what motivation
[28:30]and what path works for you as an individual.
[28:33]And you have to make the time.
[28:35]And I know people, I'm sure you do too,
[28:37]who have full careers and are using those careers
[28:41]to support themselves and their families,
[28:43]but get up an hour earlier and go to bed an hour later
[28:46]and turn off all social media and do nothing but write
[28:48]for those two hours.
[28:50]And sometimes that's what it takes, you know?
[28:52]But if you really are a writer, you have to write
[28:55]and you're going to figure it out.
[28:57]In this case, social media served you well, right?
[29:00]Because we heard, we heard from Jenny.
[29:01]The book is Mad Honey.
[29:03]The authors are Jody Pico and Jenny Boylan.
[29:07]An instant bestseller, just a must read for all,
[29:12]for all men, women, and bees.
[29:14]And just thank you, Jody.
[29:16]Thank you, Jenny.
[29:17]And we look forward to following the exciting updates
[29:20]as they come.
[29:21]Thank you so much.
[29:22]Thank you.
[29:23]Bye-bye.
[29:25]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[29:27]Don't have time to read books.
[29:29]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[29:31]at Zibi Owens and at Moms.
[29:32]Don't have time to read books.
[29:34]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com
[29:36]and sign up for my virtual book club
[29:38]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[29:40]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[29:43]for the Sound Editing.
[29:44]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[29:46]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.