Isaac Fitzgerald, DIRTBAG, MASSACHUSETTS: A Confessional
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now
[0:07]Thank you so much. Called moms. Don't have time to read books
[0:10]It is a daily podcast
[0:12]365 days a year and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career
[0:18]Their book their life and more in 30 minutes or less because who has time?
[0:22]I am now an author myself
[0:24]Although I wasn't when I started this podcast and you can get my new memoir book ends
[0:29]A memoir of love, loss, and literature wherever books are sold starting July 1st and my children's book princess charming
[0:36]You can learn more about me at Zivi Owens.com
[0:39]But really you're here to learn more about the authors and that is what we're going to do
[0:43]Also, be sure to check out all the other podcasts in the zcast podcast network
[0:49]You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com and definitely check out those shows as well
[0:54]Isaac Fitzgerald is the author of Dirtbag, Massachusetts, a confessional
[1:02]Isaac is the New York Times best-selling author of Dirtbag, Massachusetts
[1:06]He appears frequently on the today show and is also the author of the best-selling children's book
[1:11]How to be a pirate as well as the co-author of pen and ink tattoos and story and the stories behind them
[1:17]Also knives and ink chefs and the stories behind their tattoos
[1:21]His writing has appeared in the New York Times
[1:23]The Atlantic S choir the Guardian the best American non required reading and numerous other publications
[1:29]He lives in Brooklyn. Welcome. Isaac. Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read vix to discuss dirtbag
[1:36]Massachusetts a confessional
[1:38]Thank you so much for having me on. Oh, it's my pleasure
[1:41]Okay, your book has gotten so much press you must be so excited
[1:45]It's like I tell me what that has been like and then I want you to tell listeners more what it's about and all that but first just the the
[1:51]free the preface
[1:53]Absolutely. Well, um, you know for me it has been a wild year and I feel extremely grateful for that
[2:01]Publishing as we know can be a real topsy tervy world
[2:05]And I've I've had different jobs in it for quite some time in the publishing industry
[2:10]So I really tried to go in with low expectations. It's kind of a philosophy in all the life
[2:14]I try to you know keep set the bar low and then things go better than that
[2:18]It's kind of exciting and so with the launch of this book, you know
[2:21]It really came down to I was just thrilled for it to be out of the world and to find the right readers and the readers
[2:26]That could connect with it
[2:28]But I never expected for that to be such a large number of readers or for so many people to connect with this book in such a major way
[2:36]And so the last six months I've been on the road a lot
[2:39]So it's been difficult. It's been hard
[2:41]There's been you know, it's something that really love doing is traveling but like once you're doing it for a long
[2:47]Time it starts to get a little road ragged as I would say but overall it's just been like such a phenomenal experience
[2:55]So while we come to the end of the year
[2:56]I'm happy to take a little bit of a rest, but I'm really grateful for everything that happened
[3:01]Do you feel like the reception of it was different in Massachusetts?
[3:04]Oh, that's a great question. You know the book is kind of sneakily about California and a few other places
[3:11]So like that point got love
[3:13]From from different parts of the country. I would say
[3:17]If anything this might get me a little trouble
[3:21]Massachusetts reaction and New England reaction was very in line when I was expecting which was a healthy bit of skepticism
[3:29]I'd like to think I won some readers over, but you know coming from New England
[3:34]There's a little bit of like let's keep it buttoned up, you know
[3:37]We don't talk about that kind of stuff
[3:39]But luckily I found especially for me
[3:43]I would say like the largest supporting group were independent booksellers and so the independent booksellers
[3:48]Not just in Massachusetts, but throughout New England. I was able to go to like a conference center that are a conference that they have last year
[3:55]And they just really
[3:57]Turned up the support and so I really you know and that stuff matters
[4:01]It's such just it's like I said it's such a topsy-turvy game
[4:03]So like, you know the fact that they were putting it in the windows and that they read it and really loved it is how I think about its audience in that area
[4:11]That's awesome. I'm opening an indie bookstore. Oh, no kidding. Yeah
[4:15]When we're in Santa Monica in February that wonderful congratulations and I'll come visit that's a come visit
[4:25]Yeah, I'm a big I mean obviously goes without saying we all love independent bookstores
[4:30]But right now especially it feels like there's this real
[4:35]Turn into like not only do they function as you know spaces for authors to come and interact with
[4:40]The community. They actually are community centers. That was suppose yeah, that's so important and then the other part of it is I think
[4:48]after you know many many years of
[4:52]Oh, you know this algorithm recommends this or
[4:55]This is the best of list or this or that like I really feel
[4:59]This year what I saw a lot of was was was people in local communities really trusting their independent booksellers
[5:05]The right book in the right hands and so that's if there's another one in Santa Monica like a new new independent bookstore
[5:11]That makes me really happy so thank you. Thank you. And we're actually gonna do shelves that are
[5:15]Author curated so it would be like your five or ten favorite books or something like that. That's a great idea and you know
[5:21]Not time for you've got a lot of folks, but I would love to do if you want to do one. We would love it
[5:26]I would make me so actually a little low on men
[5:31]It's right here. It's official. Okay, great. All right
[5:34]Okay, that's your book. So your whole memoir. Why did you write it? Why did you want to share it? Which pieces of this for you?
[5:41]Like I have to get this out. I want people to know X Y or Z
[5:45]Well, so the kind of funny story here is that for many many years
[5:50]I said I was never gonna write about my child. I
[5:54]Was very interested. I've always loved books. I grew up with a huge love of reading and I really do have my parents to thank for that
[6:01]And I knew that I like you know writing was something it took me a while
[6:05]I'm not one of those folks that was like really gifted with it
[6:07]I really my approach to as much more craft work work work practice practice and over the years get better and better and better
[6:15]But for the longest time in my 20s especially like I would meet you at a party
[6:19]We would talk I was very open about my past. I would tell some stories and every once in a while somebody'd say oh well
[6:24]You should really and I was always just kind of you know
[6:28]So this book when it sold was actually supposed to be a bit more of just like pop culture commentary
[6:34]A little like a sprinkling of my own stuff
[6:36]But the book that I compared to is and the book that inspired it and and she's a good friend of mine
[6:41]But Roxanne gays bad feminist like incredibly powerful essays
[6:46]But like you know very separate
[6:49]Come from a lot of things that she'd written in the past which which I did as well in dirtbag
[6:53]But so that was my setup was that kind of approach and then
[6:58]as I sat down to write it
[7:00]basically a year went by
[7:02]And I'm really struggling
[7:05]Let's be very clear about this. This book missed deadline many many times
[7:09]And so one of the problems was I would try to start writing about this idea that I had an office and I'd have
[7:15]Seven paragraphs about my father or seven paragraphs about something each other and I kept trying to push that aside push it aside
[7:21]focus on the thing
[7:22]And that's kind of when it started to dawn on me that maybe
[7:27]And you know obviously not an original thought here, but yeah, it takes things it takes life to learn things
[7:33]But maybe the things that I don't want to talk about the things that I'm trying to kind of turn away from
[7:37]That might actually be where the interesting stories are so after no lives a year that I said and then basically another six months past about 18 months
[7:47]I called my editor at Williamsbury Nancy Miller wonderful woman
[7:51]And I said I think this book might be a little bit more about my childhood
[7:56]Than I expected it to be and Nancy said yeah, I've been waiting about 18 months for you to forget
[8:03]But then that's when a lot of things really clicked into place for me and
[8:09]You know the themes that came out of this book were not the themes that I was trying to get into when I started this project or when I sold the
[8:16]proposal it really did have a lot more to do with community
[8:20]family
[8:22]They then I expected it to at all
[8:25]So it really I wish I could sit here and tell you that I had this perfect idea
[8:28]And I knew exactly what I was trying to to put out in the world and and how to like figure out how to get readers to connect with these stores
[8:35]but it really was a lot of fumbling in the dark and
[8:39]then
[8:40]To be really I mean, I'm sure many people can relate to this as well
[8:44]But like and then kind of almost overworking it and like not being willing to let it go because there was almost this fear of
[8:50]Of sharing these deeply personal stories in the world
[8:54]But luckily I have a lot of people in my life who are really caring and really patient and who gave me some really great feedback
[9:01]And some really great help with edits and things like that and eventually the book got to this place
[9:07]Where I was willing to let it go
[9:09]I mean, I'm glad that you didn't say it was easy and you just like cranked it out and there it was in perfection
[9:15]I mean, I think your experience is more reflective of the pain involved in writing a memoir and how hard it is to
[9:22]Write the stuff that scares you. No, and then that's it's something I'm so so grateful for because if I'd written this book
[9:29]When I was 25 one
[9:32]My writing would have been a lot worse
[9:35]But too and I would argue much more importantly
[9:39]It would be this book that's kind of like my parents are the worst like the world is mean and hard and like
[9:46]Having written it 10 years later. I'm so grateful and thankful for the kind of
[9:52]introspection kind of the maturity
[9:54]You know the growing up that I did in that time that allowed me to realize like okay my parents are having a difficult
[10:00]time. Yes, some of their choices were not fantastic. But now that I'm that same age, can I not see
[10:08]that not all adults have everything figured out? And it's sometimes we make very, very big mistakes
[10:14]and that's okay. So I am, I'm really happy that in a weird way that it took me as long as it did
[10:20]to get down on the page. I could feel some of that perspective too when you were like, well,
[10:25]it made sense why we would leave the city. It should have been pretty and easy and a nicer
[10:30]life. Like, they wouldn't have known that it would be so horrific. And maybe they could get over
[10:36]the fact that we were moving back to my mom's town where her mother, like, can stand her or whatever.
[10:41]Like, no, no, that's absolutely right. And just for those that are listening who are like,
[10:45]what is happening? What is this book even about? I can do it. There we go. Yes, I shouldn't.
[10:50]I should have gone back to it. That's all right. You asked it early. And I kind of missed it.
[10:53]But it's it's dirt bag Massachusetts. It's a collection of essays, but there really is through
[10:58]line. And I try to build kind of an overarching story. And one could almost call it episodic. It
[11:04]doesn't like, it doesn't you're moving through my life for the most part. Some scenes are kind
[11:10]of jumping around in time. And it starts very early on. But the kind of elevator pitch I can give
[11:16]is it's how my family kind of exploded apart. And then in a very new shape, eventually over years
[11:23]and years and years came back together. And a part of that explosion, a part of the beginning of that
[11:30]is we grew up in inner city Boston involving a Catholic worker, which is kind of this
[11:36]is started by Dorothy Day. It's the socialist, Catholic, very grassroots, you know, give your shirt
[11:43]to your neighbor type situation for the unhoused. And my family was unhoused. And so I grew up in
[11:48]the Catholic worker in this kind of beautiful vibrant. But on paper, you're like, oh, kids in an
[11:56]living situation for the unhoused, that's got to be really hard. Those were actually some of the
[11:59]best years of my life in the inner city. And then my parents make the decision to go out to rural
[12:04]Massachusetts. And like you were just saying on paper again, that should be like, oh, you're going
[12:09]the country. You're going to have a yard. But actually things became much, much worse. So the
[12:14]the book goes from there and kind of the reactions I have in my 20s, trying to pretend like my
[12:19]childhood is in the past and not affecting me at all, realizing that actually a lot of trauma
[12:24]experience was making me make some very, very bad. I don't even want to say bad, but sometimes
[12:29]difficult, sometimes hurtful to myself or to those around me decisions. So that's the concept
[12:34]of dirtbag Massachusetts. And you should know it's dirtbag comma Massachusetts in name of this town
[12:39]that I lived in. My teenage years, it was called Afro Massachusets. I'll give you one guess
[12:44]whatever one else in the state called Afro Massachusets. And it turns out you can't call it
[12:49]book that. So did you try? Well, yeah, I mean, I talked about it with them, but I
[12:58]a real shout out here because I think it's important. They basically, it's smart. You can,
[13:03]let's be honest, technically, of course you can, but it makes it a hard to promote it. I'm
[13:07]in any kind of way. It makes it really hard to search for. So they're like, hey, that's not a great
[13:13]idea. And Jason Diamond is a wonderful author and a very good friend of mine. I'm very lucky. I was
[13:18]kind of just offhandedly telling him that didn't miss a bee. It didn't just immediately just turn
[13:23]to me. It was like, you should call it dirtbag Massachusetts. And it was him. It was like, it's a great
[13:28]title. And I just pull shout out and all came from Jason Diamond. Amazing. I feel like you reached
[13:34]there was such a turning point in your life before and after you went to boarding school. And
[13:39]it almost seemed very unlikely given the narrative that that's where you would end up for high
[13:44]school. And can you just talk a little bit about that? And like, what would have happened had you
[13:49]knock on? Do you ever think it was this like your sliding doors moment or?
[13:53]Yeah, I know. Listen, I think I think all of us as human beings have a million sliding door
[13:58]moments all the time. And if one thinks too much about it, you could do nothing, but stare at the
[14:03]ceiling and wonder, but that was a big one for me for sure. You're absolutely right. So after
[14:09]we move out to the country, things get really tough for my parents. And I also then grow a little
[14:16]older. And let's be honest, around the age 12, I myself then become very difficult kind of
[14:21]reacting to the years before and the experiences around me. And what was lucky is that I was at a school,
[14:28]public school, wonderful school, where the teachers, librarians, secretaries,
[14:33]kind of saw, they could tell, they could tell that there's trouble at home, but they could also tell
[14:40]that if there was a situation where I was given a chance, I might be able to succeed academically
[14:46]because as much trouble as I was getting in school, I always made sure that my work was getting done
[14:51]that my grades were up. And so I got a full scholarship to this boarding school. And it really,
[14:57]you know, before that I had no interest or interested in the right word, like dream of going to
[15:04]college. And I just, I felt like a very straight, straight path. And I probably would have stuck
[15:10]around the area that I live where I want to be very clear. There's a really strong community there.
[15:16]It's a really beautiful part of the state. It is still a very low income part of the state,
[15:21]but we're talking about a low income part of a very rich state. So that's, you know, I talk about
[15:25]class and, and how kind of these poor communities and very wealthy communities really bump right
[15:29]up against each other in the book. And that's always going to be something that fascinates me.
[15:33]But I do, I always want to give a shout out because that area is beautiful and does have such
[15:39]a strong community. But I think myself and what I was going throughout the time, I would have been
[15:44]on a self-destructive path in that area. And what boarding school gave me was this chance to get
[15:50]out of my house and get away from a few of my bad habits. Now, don't let's be very clear. No matter
[15:56]where you go, there you are. So I, I still was not in trouble. But I think the, the biggest gift that
[16:03]the boarding school gave me, not, you know, of course education and this, this ability to then
[16:07]get a scholarship for college. But I was there for four years. And the, the biggest thing that
[16:13]it was just expand my horizons. I'd barely been out of the state at that point in my life. And
[16:18]here was a school where a lot of kids came from not just all over the country, but internationally,
[16:22]as well. And all of a sudden my world opened up in all of these incredible ways. So I am, I'm,
[16:28]I'm, it's funny because the, don't get wrong. If you talk to me when I was probably 15, 16,
[16:34]there's a lot I want to complain about. But I do, I really recognize what those teachers,
[16:40]secretaries and, and librarians at my public school did for me in helping me achieve that.
[16:46]And, and then I understand what that school did in terms of broadening my horizons. And I,
[16:51]I think if, if I had stuck around a lot, like again, a lot of my friends who did stick around
[16:57]having credible stories themselves in whether they stay in the community and the way they help
[17:02]shape that community now or in my best friend growing up ends up going to West Point. We're still
[17:07]best friends this day. We've lived very, very different lives at this point. But, you know,
[17:12]there are these wonderful stories out of that area. But I think myself, I was so drawn to the
[17:19]self-destructive path that I was on that. I, I'd like to think I want to figure it out. I want
[17:25]to give myself that grace. I want to, I want to believe that I still could have figured things out,
[17:30]but I think it would have been a much harder journey. Interesting. You also wrote really openly
[17:36]about your body and your weight and the different fluctuations. And you even included a photo of
[17:42]like, wow, look at what I looked like then. I can't even believe it. Which was lovely. Thank you.
[17:50]And I just feel like we don't get enough of that. I mean, of the thousand books that a woman might
[17:55]discuss her body, there might be one. I feel like that's maybe the percentage or I don't know,
[18:00]I made that up. But talk to me about sharing all that, what you feel about it and what the response
[18:04]has been to, to your relationship with your own weight and body. Well, so that, so that essay that
[18:11]you're mentioning is probably one of the rich, so like I said, a lot of this is new material,
[18:17]but some of it are pulled from these older essays that I published. Again, I, I reshaped them and
[18:23]made it so that it ran with a smoother narrative within the collection. But that, I believe,
[18:29]is probably the oldest essay in the book. And just speaking for myself, not speaking for any other
[18:37]readers, but what really sticks with me is how that essay is still as relevant to me today as it was
[18:46]when I originally published it. And I think that is, that is, it's an essay that a lot of people
[18:52]connect with. It's probably one of the essays that I get written about the most from all sorts
[18:58]of different folks. And I, I think that's, I mean, I just think I think it's like one of the fundamental,
[19:05]sorry, my philosophy major kind of jumping out here a little bit, but I think one of the fundamentals
[19:09]of the human experience is how do we feel at peace in our own bodies? How do we feel love for our
[19:18]bodies or like even like, like just not itchy in our own skin to try and find peace. And then
[19:27]the tough thing that I mentioned in the essays, you will have these moments of like, oh, this is it.
[19:33]This I feel I look good. I feel good. I love myself. And then a day, two days later, all of a sudden,
[19:40]they can all hang in there. And I can kind of come apart and I try to capture that in this essay.
[19:47]But for me, when I first published that essay, I remember being a bit scared again, putting it out
[19:52]into the world. But I knew that it's almost, it's not like I knew, but like I had, I basically had a
[20:00]theory. From telling there's so many people at that point in my life, I was at least probably
[20:05]30. And I was starting to figure out, wait a second, I'm not the only person. And actually,
[20:09]it's not even a small, like I think my theory is it might just be almost everyone that grapples
[20:16]with this. And when I put it out, it's the world, the feedback I got really, really
[20:22]showed that to be true. So that is why body image issues, I think are are going to be something
[20:29]that I'm always trying to write about. And I do, you know, just to speak on it, I think it's
[20:34]something that men should feel. And I think we're seeing way more of it, way more of it, but a lot,
[20:40]a lot of acceptance in themselves to feel okay sharing these different kinds of thoughts. Because
[20:47]you just, you just, the more people are talking about it, the less alone other people will feel with it.
[20:53]And I think for a long time, there was this feeling of, hey, we don't talk about that kind of
[20:59]stuff, like just either hit the gym or don't, but like don't talk about it. So I just really,
[21:07]I'm excited. I think as I get older as a reader that I'm seeing more and more of it out there in
[21:12]the world. The first essay ever published, I was 14 and I wrote about what it had felt like to gain
[21:18]20 pounds, like the year my parents got divorced. And I wrote it in 17 magazine, you know, if not
[21:22]exactly your caliber of place. Andrew or 14, I don't even, I don't look at that. That doesn't,
[21:30]hey, you're on the second. The math is a mountain, but no, that's amazing. Keep going.
[21:33]No, no, but like you, like I got so many letters to the magazine, I feel like that's the only reason
[21:39]why I've like kept writing for however many years I'm 46. So the people are so desperate,
[21:44]I feel to feel seen desperate sense negative. Eager, people are just so eager because of all the
[21:50]interior conversations just to feel like, oh gosh, thank God, someone said something that I feel
[21:56]and don't say something. And again, I think it helps you move to the world in a more loving manner.
[22:02]Because all of a sudden you recognize that, okay, yeah, you've got this rough, these rough voices
[22:08]in your head. But then you wait, it's kind of so does everybody else. I love that. Can I ask,
[22:15]did you just submit it to, sorry, now I promise not to turn that in. No, no, it's okay.
[22:19]Did you just submit it to them? Did you, did you have somebody you knew somebody there? Like,
[22:24]I did not know anybody there. I was, I actually, some of my mother is on the noseier side of things.
[22:29]Anyway, I wrote it, I used to write all the time. And so I wrote it, and I printed it to go grab,
[22:35]but my mother somehow intercepted it off the edge and read it before I could, you know,
[22:41]not in front of me. And then came into my room holding it and was like, oh, you know,
[22:45]you have to send this to a magazine. I bet this will help other girls. And I was like, what,
[22:48]why would I do that? I didn't want you to read it. And she's like, no, I really think it can help
[22:52]people. So we, together, we sat there and opened it up and found the address and like, mailed it in.
[22:57]And then they took it. I know, it was so amazing. I completely, then they had me go to the office,
[23:02]had to like pose with a scale. They like waxed my eyebrows off. I was like, this is terrible.
[23:08]Like, what are you doing? We're doing that a lot back then. Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, it was, it was pretty
[23:13]exciting. Yeah, no, again, again, I'm sure there's all sorts of different levels to that story.
[23:18]And to your, your mom and that relationship as well. What a brave thing to do. And at such a
[23:25]young age. And, and then also to get that feedback, not just, you know, not just like this kind of
[23:31]thin like, oh, yeah, you did a good job. But to actually have readers' right letters that were
[23:36]meaningful and that you felt that kind of connection. So it's no wonder even our writing the rest of
[23:42]your life, having this love of that kind of connection is that's a really real thing. That's impressive.
[23:46]Well, I think like you, I think that it can't be underestimated. The power of someone early on,
[23:51]like identifying something in you that they see a value, whether it's, you're smart enough,
[23:56]you should be like, why don't you try going to the school or, you know what, you're going to that
[23:59]or keep writing or keep doing this. Like, it's huge. Every, so many people on the podcast are like,
[24:04]I tell this one teacher who really believed in me. And that's like all it was. It changed their lives.
[24:10]The power of somebody believe, and this is just something I believe in completely. But the power of
[24:14]somebody believing you, or the power of even just positive support. I mean, even even if it's
[24:21]coming in the form of like, hey, there's something that you might need to work on here,
[24:25]but set in this kind of positive way is something that I really, really believe in because
[24:33]I think especially when you're young, you think I think there's so much like pressure to figure
[24:38]out the work, figure out the world. That's what we're all right. Even since we're little babies,
[24:41]it's just a little learning machine that we have in our, and we're just trying to wrap our
[24:44]head around the world. And then again, the world gets bigger and bigger and you learn that all
[24:48]the problems are much more complex. But you're always kind of constantly trying to figure that out.
[24:52]And so especially when you're young, I think there's this, this, this want to be like,
[24:57]okay, I've got it. I've got my hand on it. This is the way the world is. Okay. And that's
[25:01]can feel comforting in certain ways. But in other ways, it means you're, you're almost against changing.
[25:06]You're just like, hey, I want to say it. All right. And that's the beauty of when somebody comes
[25:11]into your life and says, Hey, just for the record, this is all going to be changing all time.
[25:16]But it's okay. Like you're going to do a good job with X, Y. It's like it's okay to grow and change
[25:21]in these ways. And that kind of support can really change the trajectory of somebody's life.
[25:27]Totally. Totally great. By the way, I loved your children's book, which I read with my kids.
[25:32]How did you, how did you end up doing that? Like that came for like to, how did it go?
[25:37]This is great. This is a great, great story. I could tell it for like an hour. I'm going
[25:44]to give you the question. You have three minutes. You have three minutes. I promise. I promise.
[25:48]All right. So the books call how to be a pirate. It's illustrated by Bridget Berger, who's
[25:52]an incredible illustrator out there on the West Coast. And she also did Unity Unicorn,
[25:57]which is every time I'm doing like a reading in the school and I say that all the kids go,
[26:01]oh, because it's such a such an incredible book. She's such a great illustrator. But the way that
[26:05]that book comes to be much like we're kind of talking about here. A lot of my process is an idea
[26:10]just kicking around in my head forever and ever and ever. A lot of these essays, even when I was saying
[26:15]I don't want to write it. Like these thoughts and these memories were still kicking around in my head.
[26:20]So how to be a pirate came from this place of I wanted to make a tattoo book for kids.
[26:24]That was it. That was the idea. And it hadn't really baked much more than that. But I've been
[26:28]kicking around for me in my head for years. I had a friend who had a kid who their kid called me
[26:33]the stamped man. Like my brother was starting to have kids and like they were like, what are these?
[26:38]So I just wanted to figure that out. Anyways, much kind of the things that we're talking about
[26:43]community a little bit a lot, but a lot of positive support. I moved to New York City from San Francisco.
[26:51]Rough move kind of hit forgotten about winter. Big mistake. Everything was kind of hard in that
[26:56]moment. But then, you know, get through the winter next summer. I'm out in my backyard. And this is
[27:01]truly. I'm not talking down the block. I'm talking about two backyards like is there's just a guy
[27:05]in his backyard drinking rosé. And then I'm in that the next lot in my backyard drinking rosé,
[27:10]we get to talk in. We talk and talk and talk eventually. He's like, hey, much.
[27:15]Just come around the block. I'm walking to the house. There's kids books everywhere. Here's the
[27:18]thing. The guy's his name was John Shesca. It's John Shesca. He wrote the stinky cheese man and
[27:23]other fairly rotten fairy to other fairly stupid tales. You know, the true story, the big
[27:28]battle. Like these incredible, like these 90s books that shaped my thing is if you look at his
[27:32]name, the way it's, but I just didn't know how it was ever pronounced as a kid. It's just, there's a lot
[27:36]of like S's season season there. And so like I didn't know until I got all of a sudden cold crap.
[27:42]So we become friends. I've got this idea for kids, but the one thing I don't want to do
[27:47]is step on his toe. Like you need somebody. You don't John Shesca. Everybody that needs
[27:51]them probably is like I have a kids book idea. So I waited like 30 times. I waited 30.
[27:56]And then I said it kind of what I just said to you. And then he just looks me down the eyes.
[28:01]And he just says, Isaac. And I go, yeah. He goes, that's a stupid idea for a kids book. And I'm crushed.
[28:06]Just like I'm like, Oh, no, I overstep my boundaries. Ah, then what he says, but if you come over here,
[28:12]every other Friday for the rest of the summer, I will teach you how to take this like weird
[28:18]idea that you have. It's very much an adult trying to teach a kid something which kids don't
[28:23]know. Idea for a kids book and turn it into a book that a child might actually be interested
[28:29]to read. And so I won't take you through everything that he taught me in that moment. That can
[28:34]be a story for next time at support and that love and that trust. And the first time I walked over
[28:41]there, all those kids books I mentioned is not very worn out there on couches on the floor on
[28:45]coffee tables. And he's like, I'm going to go to the backyard and drink some more. I'm saying.
[28:49]And you're going to read all these books because like this very karate style thing that happened,
[28:54]but he really taught me how to write a children's book. And the reason that book is so good. And the
[28:59]reason kids like it is because of the incredible way that John Shesca thinks about young readers.
[29:05]Wow. Well, back to everybody. It's my favorite. It's my favorite. It's I won't lie. Very proud of
[29:11]your bag mass. She's it's, but how to be a part of the way connects with kids is like, yeah,
[29:15]so much. I couldn't believe when I realized you were the same person. I was like, no, what?
[29:19]That makes me very happy too. Well, I was like, thank you so much for coming on. This is really fun.
[29:26]It was great getting to know you. So thank you.
[29:28]See the absolute pleasure. Talk to me about Santa Monica, the bookstore idea.
[29:31]Yes, I will. You're going to help. And then hopefully next time I'm out there,
[29:34]we can see each other in person. Sounds good. All right. Very good. Thank you. Bye bye.
[29:40]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books. Don't forget to
[29:44]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for
[29:49]my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom
[29:54]every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan. In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[29:59]And thanks for watching.
[30:00]Thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.