Jemele Hill, UPHILL: A Memoir
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, the creator and host of the award-winning podcast that you're listening to right now
[0:07]Thank you so much. Called moms. Don't have time to read books
[0:10]It is a daily podcast
[0:12]365 days a year and each day we talk to an author about all of the things related to their career
[0:18]Their book their life and more in 30 minutes or less because who has time?
[0:22]I am now an author myself
[0:24]Although I wasn't when I started this podcast and you can get my new memoir book ends
[0:29]A memoir of love, loss and literature wherever books are sold starting July 1st and my children's book prints is charming
[0:36]You can learn more about me at zimbyones.com
[0:39]But really you're here to learn more about the authors and that is what we're going to do
[0:43]Also be sure to check out all the other podcasts in the zcast podcast network
[0:49]You can learn more at zcastnetwork.com and definitely check out those shows as well
[0:54]Jamel Hill is the author of uphill a memoir
[1:01]Jamel is the Emmy award-winning former co-host of ESPN's Sports Center and
[1:07]2018 NABJ journalist of the year
[1:10]Hill is a contributing writer for the Atlantic where she covers the intersection where she covers the intersection of sports race
[1:16]Politics and culture
[1:17]She is also the producer of a Disney ESPN documentary with Colin Kaepernick
[1:21]She grew up in Detroit graduated from Michigan State University and now lives in Los Angeles
[1:26]Welcome to Mel. Thank you so much for coming on moms. Don't have time to read books to discuss your memoir a poem
[1:32]Well, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Of course
[1:35]I enjoyed talking about my favorite thing which is this memoir. Oh, I enjoy talking about my favorite things which is my which is me
[1:45]Well, I'm I feel like it's so fitting to come on this
[1:49]Not that the show is really four moms anymore
[1:51]Of course there are lots of moms and non-moms and everything but the relationships between you and your mom and your grandmother are so profound and
[1:59]interesting and emotional and
[2:01]I mean the experiences that you've all lived through the relationships to each other
[2:05]I mean that was for me the heart of this whole story
[2:08]And I know things have happened in your career and you've become this hugely successful person in ESPN all this
[2:13]But when you went really deep into you and their experience
[2:17]It was so moving and so good. So anyway, just to say that. Well, thank you. I appreciate it
[2:24]It was I think the the difficulty in writing a memoir is that you're you're writing obviously about real people and while my grandmother's no longer
[2:33]Longer living, you know, obviously my mother is and we still have a good relationship
[2:39]And so you have to approach how you write about them with honesty and transparency for sure
[2:45]But also with care and delicacy and even empathy
[2:48]I mean, this is not something that I had to manufacture it's something that I naturally felt
[2:52]But whether it was them or any of the other people that I wrote about in the book especially those relationships that are
[2:59]Still in my life and a part of my life that I want to preserve is that that's always something that you have to weigh as
[3:06]You're trying to tell your story be candid be honest and bring the emotion to the pages as you felt it in that moment
[3:13]And as you still feel it. So it was it's it's quite a balancing act which makes writing a memoir
[3:18]Just more wildly different than obviously anything I've ever written
[3:22]Yes, oh my gosh
[3:24]you start with your own childhood you start going and you go back to your a lot of the backstory with your mom and your grandmother and
[3:33]When you're recounting some of the things that happened to your family and your mom when she was younger I was you know
[3:41]Occasionally, I was just like oh my gosh. No again. I can't believe this all the sexual assault your mom went through
[3:47]Like the scene in the van like then at the liquor store like all over and over
[3:52]They were just so many things that happened to her and I was like
[3:57]By the time we get to the end where you're you know the two of you were still like together and like added
[4:02]You know an event and like you're sitting somewhere as something
[4:05]I was like oh my god. How is she even just still sitting there? Like she's gone through so much stuff
[4:10]How can she just walk down the street? I know that sounds ridiculous, but it's
[4:13]the on the miss fortune and it's just
[4:17]So awful and the trauma that she went through and then for you to be the daughter to absorb all that that's a lot
[4:25]It is and believe it or not the reaction that you're having right now in this moment or as you read it is the same reaction that
[4:31]I had as she was telling me some of this a lot of it
[4:34]I knew well I would say more than 50% of it
[4:37]I knew but there were parts in the book
[4:40]I did not know until she told me as I
[4:43]Sort of interviewed for her for this book
[4:45]So I could figure out how I wanted to tell this story how you know
[4:49]Just even knowing some of the finer details to make sure I have the accuracy right to make sure at time in place and
[4:56]You know, frankly the difficulty of taking her back through the worst moment of her life and I tried to be very
[5:02]Careful and how I did that. So
[5:05]When I first started to begin the writing process and was talking to her and talking about our family history overall
[5:11]I sort of started with a lighter stuff first the first and then
[5:15]I wanted to save all the harder and more difficult things for a couple conversations and not constantly go back to her and say
[5:23]Hey, well, what about you know the rape in Texas and what about this part in that part?
[5:27]I didn't want to do that to her to re-traumatize her in any way and even
[5:31]In discussing you know that rape I knew it happened and had known it for a long time
[5:37]But there were small details that I did not know
[5:40]You know, I didn't know how she was abducted. I didn't know and you know
[5:43]I didn't know that's how exactly how it happened and
[5:47]Even some of the things that she dealt with following that I didn't I did not know so it was very eye opening for me
[5:54]I had long forgiven my mother for you know, some of the difficulties I experienced in my childhood and
[6:02]I have always given her a lot of grace, but I think learning about the things that I didn't know and the things that she survived
[6:10]Made me sort of triple the amount of grace that I'd already given her and I
[6:16]Have often have the same reaction that you have which is I cannot believe
[6:21]She was able to withstand all of this and that she is still here
[6:27]And not just still here but driving and having gone back to to get her masters and done all these things
[6:34]Yeah, I've done all these things as
[6:36]as an adult at that stage in her life that you know
[6:40]A lot of people would not have been able to accomplish given the severity of the trauma she experienced through the majority of her life
[6:47]And then you also write about your own traumas even the car accident like that was terrible
[6:53]Talk a little more about that and do you think about that often and you know
[6:57]The people coming in and out of your lives and the poverty and like the rat the infested
[7:03]I mean you I'm just like so in awe, you know
[7:08]And I know you're not the only one. I know these stories. You know it's just
[7:13]You're it's just such a warrior to get through all of it like almost dying in the hospital with this accident
[7:18]Oh my gosh, you poor thing. Well said sadly my story is relatable
[7:23]That's the sad part. Yeah, and that's what's unfortunate is that I'm not the only person
[7:27]In this world and certainly not in this country to have parents who are recovering addicts who not the only
[7:35]Person who you know had an impoverished childhood and had gone through all these the the experiences themselves are unique
[7:42]but the situations are kind of relatable but
[7:45]You know in terms of my car accident that I that I was in where I flatlined and you know it was thrown out of this car after this
[7:53]You know kind of freak accident if you will
[7:57]In the you know at the time you know as a child you don't really process what's happening and
[8:02]You know the as I wrote about in the book what I think about in the moment is like what it allowed me
[8:08]What I wasn't able to do because of it, you know sports are where have always been a big part of my life and to
[8:13]Be told temporarily that I you know could not play sports and not find a way to interact with other kids and then physically
[8:19]The way I looked after this accident was you know
[8:23]Obviously very detrimental. You know as a child. You want to fit in
[8:26]You know you want to be with your peers and you want to feel accepted and to
[8:31]Not really feel that because
[8:33]these lingering injuries that I suffered that was tough, you know, that was a tough time in my life and
[8:39]You know later on as I grew into adulthood
[8:43]That's when you start thinking about your purpose. That's when you start thinking about how close you were to not being here and
[8:50]You wonder as I've always wondered like what was the reason?
[8:55]And or and it doesn't have to be a thing where I'm questioning the things that that are happening in my life
[9:00]But more or less looking at it from the standpoint of
[9:03]There's a reason why I'm here and I have to make sure that every day when I get up
[9:07]That I'm faithful to whatever that reason is I don't always know what it is
[9:12]But there's clearly a reason why I'm supposed to be here and so
[9:15]Part of my purpose my drive my ambition is built around always being
[9:20]very intentional about
[9:22]understanding why I am here and to make sure that with
[9:28]These that I give intelligence these position
[9:30]I've been placed in that I'm maximizing it at all
[9:34]Times because there's a reason that I'm here and so because again as I write about in the book
[9:40]I very easily could have not been here and so it's just something, you know, that's kind of
[9:45]It's it's it's something that drives you but at the same time is also very heavy to deal with yeah, of course
[9:52]And one thing that you did when you were younger has turned to bucks which
[9:55]I also did and probably many listeners and you said instead of this is
[10:00]Can I if I could just read these two paragraphs that okay, you said I had anger resentment fear and longing bubbling inside me and nowhere to dump those feelings
[10:07]I was too embarrassed to talk about my mother with any of my friends
[10:10]I shared some things with my grandmother
[10:12]But talking to her was difficult because I knew she would just use whatever I told her to badmouth my mother to her friends and other people in our family
[10:18]Instead of confiding and someone from my inner circle
[10:21]I turned to two trusted outsiders Judy Bloom and Margaret Simon
[10:25]Judy Bloom was one of my favorite authors. I read everything I could from her super fudge
[10:29]Do you need tales of a fourth grade?
[10:30]Nothing and it's not the end of the world, but my favorite book of them all was are you there God? It's me and Margaret
[10:37]And at the end you said that's how you started writing so tell me tell me more about that in your lifelong love of
[10:43]reading and Judy Bloom and
[10:46]Yeah, Beverly clearly and Judy Bloom
[10:48]Yeah, my two best friends and am I in my head yeah, I I was a voracious reader from the beginning and
[10:55]as I write about it in my memoir, you know, it's that love was stoked and
[11:00]I'm sure this will be a great comfort to parents that are listening is that it was told by the fact that my step by the
[11:07]Red to me on a regular basis and so yes, it does actually
[11:11]Take root parents that when you read to your children, it does stoke that love of reading in them
[11:16]It may not seem like it, but it
[11:18]And so I think about those early childhood books that I love curious George
[11:23]Frog and toad, you know, I still have a copy of frog and toad somewhere
[11:27]It's like, you know, my favorite childhood book that entire series and
[11:31]That is what made me want to read and so I just started reading as a young adult and continue that habit
[11:38]Lost a little bit in college because we have to read in college
[11:41]I did not do much pleasure reading in college. I will I will say but luckily, you know, pick the back up
[11:47]You know, once I it was some distance between my professional life in college. So
[11:53]You know, I've always found great comfort in books. I think books change are perspective on the world books make you curious about the world and
[12:01]I it's hard for me to even fathom where my life would be, you know, without books and
[12:08]It made me want to be a writer even though I didn't know how that process works
[12:12]I didn't know how you know how one becomes an author at all, but it is what
[12:18]Totally drove me to do what I'm doing now
[12:21]I always saw myself as somebody who would eventually write a book
[12:24]I just never thought that it would be a book about me would
[12:29]I always wanted to be a fiction writer because
[12:33]It wasn't until much later in adulthood that I actually started to read not fiction most of
[12:39]My life. I have read fiction, but now I've sort of made a turn where I think a part because I had to write a memoir
[12:46]Where I've become hugely invested in in reading a lot of non-fiction. So books were just a lifesaver for me
[12:56]Certainly it stoked my imagination
[12:58]And it allows you to get kind of lost in it in a universal world. That's not your own
[13:04]And you know, I know people have different ways in which they decompress, but for me that way is is through books
[13:10]Me too
[13:13]Have you read anything amazing lately?
[13:15]I mean, I just read your book, but what did you read?
[13:18]Well right now
[13:19]And this is also I think the great part as well about being in the profession
[13:25]Being in the profession that I'm in, you know, being a journalist is that especially because I had to interview people
[13:30]I'm constantly like I am the interviewer that if you if you've written a book
[13:35]I'm going to read it right and so it's
[13:38]That part I love because it allows me to be able to say I may not have picked up on my own
[13:43]So right now I'm reading a book called go ahead in the rain and it is by
[13:49]The writers last name
[13:50]I'm afraid to say because I know I won't mispronounce it, but it's first name to send me and
[13:55]He this book I'm a hip-hop fan as well and this book is about a tribe call quest and
[14:02]one of the you know best rap groups in history and so
[14:05]He wrote this book just about their dynamic their relationship
[14:09]It's really about music and sound and it's really really good and so
[14:13]I'm almost done with that book and
[14:16]I wrote some like in 2022. I read a lot of amazing books and probably the best book I read on the fiction front
[14:23]was a book called Nightcrawling by Lila Miley or Lila or Lila Miley and this book is
[14:29]Phenomenal. I mean, I cannot believe this young lady wrote this book at 18 years old and she won the National Book Award
[14:36]and it was
[14:38]You know the the the best books are when you as you're reading it you feel something shift inside of you and that's what this book is
[14:45]And so I that that was my best, you know probably book red combination of
[14:50]of 2022 and
[14:52]Probably the best memoir I read in 2022. I'm not counting my own of course is
[14:57]Viola Davis's finding me. I mean that is
[15:00]You want to talk about a woman that you are
[15:03]You will look at and say how is she still here read her book
[15:07]Or that you know her book is extraordinary or better yet my my
[15:12]My suggestion would be to listen to the audiobook and I know some people don't love audiobooks and sometimes it can be this
[15:20]Sort of divide between the book readers and audiobook listeners
[15:24]The reason the audiobook is worth it is because she doesn't and you know
[15:27]Viola Davis is a powerful actress and this is the best audiobook I've ever heard
[15:32]I'm not surprised at all that she's up for Grammy for because it's just that good
[15:37]So that was probably the best memoir that I read
[15:40]In 2022 because you know as you know from my book
[15:43]I grew up for the level of poverty that Viola Davis grew up under is a different level and so
[15:50]She made me feel rich by reading her book
[15:54]Then I grew up rich by reading it, but she has been through some extraordinary challenges
[15:59]And you know that woman is a walking testimony. So those would be sort of my recommendations from my 2022
[16:07]A lot which still early in 2023. So I still have a lot of books
[16:10]Still got a lot of books to get to this year that I'm very much looking forward to
[16:15]That was a great recommendation that has been on my list of things I need to read sometimes
[16:18]I prioritize all the ones I'm doing. I do 365 podcasts a year
[16:22]So I'm like I have to read this books
[16:25]But oh wow. Anyway, I haven't
[16:27]I don't know so I'm sometimes like well, I'm not going to read it because she's not coming in my podcast
[16:32]Anyway, I'll maybe I'll try again, you know to get around no
[16:37]But I like audiobooks in particular by authors who who that are memoirs. I'm not as
[16:44]I mean, maybe I shouldn't even say this but I don't I don't I have a harder time following fiction on audiobook
[16:50]You know, but when somebody telling them they're telling me their story and their words
[16:54]I'm like oh, yeah keep it coming
[16:56]You know, I honestly if I if you asked me my preference
[16:58]I would probably say the same thing like a fiction book. I would prefer to actually read and yeah, and I'm a field of pages person
[17:05]But I'm unfortunately I don't have a library as extensive as yours in terms of space
[17:12]So it's like I have to make decisions like as much as I want to physically read this book
[17:17]I have to make tough choices and then I'll just you know
[17:19]Obviously resort to reading it electronically
[17:22]But a fiction book if it's by somebody I guess newsworthy of note
[17:27]You know, like I listen to Will Smith's audiobook, which was phenomenal as well
[17:31]The actors have a built-in cheat code. Okay, so like whenever you read
[17:35]Yeah, or if you do a audiobook that you know an actor is done
[17:38]You're probably in for a much different audio experience and you are to say when I did my audio book and
[17:45]Yeah, so I kind of make the same separation that you do
[17:48]It's like I'll do a memoir or even something non, you know, fiction and audio
[17:54]But I don't want to read. I don't want to listen to fiction. I want to read it. Yeah
[17:59]I thought there was maybe something wrong with me
[18:01]No, I just can't I don't know. It's right, but maybe that'll be a goal get better
[18:07]One of my favorite audio books by the way
[18:09]I don't know if you've read Jody Patterson's book a bold world
[18:12]But she read that herself. She had a you know many kids including one who was trans and
[18:19]Anytime I think about that book
[18:20]I think about her saying the word Penelope and she has this kind of like dark lower voice and like Penelope this and did it
[18:26]I don't know. I like feel like by the time I interviewed her. I'm like you're like my best friend. You don't even know me
[18:31]so
[18:32]Well the audio book experience for
[18:34]An author, you know like especially me being a first-time author and you know
[18:39]Not being an actor is it's a little weird. It's a little disconcerting
[18:44]I mean, I probably it's probably took me a couple weeks to do mine and
[18:49]When the sound of your own voice most people don't like it. I don't like the sound of my own voice
[18:54]And but that's all you're sort of hearing and it's it was
[19:00]fun to do but also
[19:02]nerve-wracking to do
[19:04]because you're you're trying to
[19:06]You know you you have to sell it in a different way and then the writer in me
[19:10]When I was writing the book
[19:11]I never even thought about the fact that I would probably have to do a audio book
[19:15]So I guess I'm doing my audio book
[19:18]I'm also sort of mentally
[19:21]Swear again myself like why didn't they say this is so long
[19:25]And then there are there are just words that you're so used to writing that you're not used to saying
[19:30]Oh, yeah, so there was a probably a new collection of like 15 20 words that I realized I can't really say
[19:37]I don't actually know how to say
[19:40]And pronounced but I know how to write them. I can't necessarily say them aloud
[19:44]So it's it's a very humbling experience
[19:47]That's totally happened to me to have somebody else a word
[19:50]I'm like oh my gosh, is that how you say that? I've been in my head
[19:52]It was something totally different, but yeah
[19:56]My gosh
[19:57]So you write through the second half is
[20:00]about your career and everything that's happened with that and negotiating eventually leaving
[20:05]ESPN and you know moving on to your that's mentioned little cameo by Donald Trump. I mean
[20:11]there's the year because the life is like crazy. What are you going to do now? Like what is your
[20:15]what are you doing? What are you continuing to do from before? What are you doing now? And how is
[20:20]well uh life. Now the book has been you know really life changing and it's still it's still
[20:27]the strike something in me when I you know I had this experience you know going through the
[20:32]airport and I went into Hudson books because I think they're the largest bookseller and then
[20:38]to see my memoir sitting there was just it was surreal it was like wow my book is actually in a store
[20:45]you know and actually people can buy it at the airport and even because on social media people
[20:50]saying I just got somebody just sent me a photo that they were on the subway and they saw a woman
[20:55]reading my book and that's like yeah that's like the coolest you know thing they were in a subway
[21:00]in New York and I was like oh this is just so cool. So you know it's been and you know it's been
[21:06]different being asked more about you know personal things in my life as opposed to current events or
[21:13]you know social political or sports events because that's what I'm primarily asked about or
[21:18]happened until this time and so now being asked about me and talking about myself constantly
[21:24]is it's kind of interesting that made that joke earlier in the podcast but yes my favorite thing
[21:30]me it was sort of telling you to cheat because I was like I spent weeks talking just about
[21:34]myself and I was like wow that's a lot yeah so that's been that's certainly been life changing
[21:41]to have this out there and in the public and have people digesting it and it's been warmly
[21:46]received which obviously is what you want as an author but yeah now it's it's sort of like
[21:51]I'm moving to a different you know phase in my life just in the sense of while you know writing
[21:58]will always be central to what I do I still write for the Atlantic and you know but I also I'm
[22:04]moving into this phase where I'm getting into more things on the production side so I'm executive
[22:10]producing Colin Kaepernick's documentary that's being directed by Spike Lee so we're like knee
[22:15]deep in production in that so that has a significant amount of my attention I also have started a podcast
[22:22]network with Spotify I have my own podcast on Spotify called Jamil Hill is a bother which is a
[22:28]weekly podcast I do not do 300 episodes a year so we say 300 episodes like 365 every day every
[22:34]time yeah that's incredible yeah it's insane I am I I stand in awe thank you so you also make me
[22:41]feel like I'm not working hard enough I think I do maybe you're a slacker you're a total slacker
[22:45]I'm totally slacker yeah I'm yes I'm clearly not on the ball I'm here to make you feel bad that's
[22:50]my job here today thank you you successfully achieve it great perfect but I started a podcast network
[22:56]it's Spotify specifically that centers black women so we launched our first two podcasts
[23:03]late last year in November what is called sanctified which is about really how black women
[23:10]worship the other one is called the black girl bravado which is a wellness podcast that's really
[23:16]both of them are extremely funny you know and the all of the hosts these are some really dynamic
[23:22]women and I think people will enjoy and so those are also available on Spotify and so I have a few
[23:28]more TV and film projects coming up in this next quarter or this quarter I should say and so
[23:34]yeah it's just kind of ramping up the production side of my life that will at least it looks
[23:39]like for 2023 that will be sort of the defining bar of my life is all these TV and documentary
[23:47]and film productions that I have in the works so cool really fun thank you thank you well I could
[23:54]make like a bad joke like it was all uphill but I feel like it's downhill from here
[24:00]do you feel say that my darling down here is the follow-up memoir oh okay good sequel sequel
[24:07]the sequel is gonna be called town we need like a little like plateau you know like plateau
[24:12]yeah yeah well I'm because of you know as you know from reading the book the first part of it is
[24:19]so heavy that I was like man the next thing I write I gotta make sure that it's like kind of joy
[24:24]because I don't want people to think that you know my life is just consumed by these dark things
[24:30]and even people who read it I often tell them I say don't worry it gets lighter as you go
[24:35]yeah sure it gets lighter as you go that's true but I like I like like wallowing in the dark
[24:40]in the story in stories so I don't know yeah I mean sometimes sometimes I feel like you get
[24:45]a sense of who people are yeah it's so true well this was awesome I'm sorry I made you feel
[24:50]bad haha not good right sort of yeah but anyway it was great to connect good luck with all
[24:58]your stuff coming up and and thank you this is really you know really a moving read and you know
[25:04]congratulations well well thank you and I appreciate you know you having me on and and I always
[25:09]get to connect with another fellow avid book reader I feel like you and I should interview
[25:14]you viola Davis together maybe that's why I mean you want to know I am 100% okay maybe I'll
[25:23]pitch it with like guest hosts of you and okay all right we'll see if it works okay all right
[25:30]take care bye bye thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books
[25:36]don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books
[25:41]also sign up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet
[25:46]lots of authors on zoom every other week thanks so much to Steve and Ryan back texture sound for
[25:51]the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[25:56]now trim music.