Allegra Goodman, SAM
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[1:03]A legra Goodman is the author of SAM, a novel.
[1:06]And this is from a live event at the Temple Emanuel Striker Center.
[1:12]500 people were listening to as talk live on a webinar.
[1:15]And this is the audio from it.
[1:18]So enjoy.
[1:19]A legra Goodman is the author of five novels, two short story collections and a novel
[1:22]for young readers.
[1:24]Her fiction has appeared in The New Yorker in Elsewhere and has been anthologized in the
[1:27]O'Henry Awards and Best American Short Stories.
[1:30]She lives with her family and came with the Massachusetts.
[1:33]SAM was chosen as a read with Jenna Pick on the Today Show with Jenna Hoda and is one
[1:40]of Jenna's book club picks, which is great.
[1:43]Thanks, the legra.
[1:44]Thanks for my dream.
[1:45]Hi.
[1:46]There you are.
[1:47]I'm here.
[1:48]Bye.
[1:49]Bye.
[1:50]Well, I am so excited to talk to you about SAM, which is the read with Jenna Pick.
[1:56]Which was that just the most exciting thing?
[1:58]Tell me the story of finding out you were a read with Jenna Pick.
[2:01]Oh, my goodness.
[2:02]Let's do some very far in advance, as you probably know.
[2:05]So I guess I found out that in May that I was going to be the January pick.
[2:10]So it didn't seem very real at the time, but a flurry of emails and very exciting.
[2:16]And I was sort of like, what, me, my book, what?
[2:21]Oh, I guess.
[2:23]But you know, when I did meet her, she really reads the books and she loves the books
[2:29]that she picks and her passion is evident.
[2:32]And so I would say it's a great experience.
[2:36]It's very authentic.
[2:38]Well, I'm glad she reads them.
[2:41]I didn't have any doubt.
[2:43]And I managed to love them, as did so many people.
[2:46]Oh, my gosh, so exciting.
[2:47]So Sam, why don't you tell everybody listening what this book is about?
[2:53]And by the way, I love this hot pink on Valentine's Day
[2:55]and Happy Valentine's Day to everybody who's watching tonight.
[2:59]So yeah, Happy Valentine's Day to all the readers and the booksellers and the people
[3:05]who are so hard to get the word out about books like Sam, the book is a coming of age
[3:11]story about a young girl growing up on the North Shore of Massachusetts.
[3:15]And I always say the North Shore of Massachusetts because I grew up in Hawaii and I grew up
[3:19]on a wahoo and the North Shore meant something different where on my island.
[3:25]And it's a book about somebody turning into a human being.
[3:29]It starts when she's a little girl and it shows her heart opening and her mind opening
[3:35]and her becoming aware of the world.
[3:39]And so it is in some ways very simple because it is the sort of coming of age story.
[3:44]And in some ways it's very complex because people are so complicated.
[3:49]And the heart is so interesting to explore.
[3:53]I feel like it's also really about a girl's search and desperation for her father's love
[4:00]and how that's such a universal theme.
[4:04]I just wanted that attention and maybe not every dad is as unpredictable as her dad or
[4:10]but what we can get into that in a second.
[4:12]But I do think that's a big theme is that sort of longing and coming to terms with the
[4:16]fact that your parents are who they are, which we all have to do at some point, I guess,
[4:20]or we don't have to.
[4:21]But most people.
[4:22]It tends to happen where when the book starts, Sam is really young and her dad is magical.
[4:29]And he is a magician also.
[4:31]But he's just a magical being and she doesn't mind even that much that he appears and
[4:37]disappears.
[4:38]And then as she gets older, she begins to see him as a flawed person just as we all
[4:44]are flawed.
[4:45]But he has some challenges in his life and he disappoints her and she has to grapple
[4:50]with that.
[4:51]And you're right, a lot of the book and a lot of growing up is realizing that your parents
[4:56]are human beings and people, not mythical, mythical people up there, but they're human.
[5:02]And so a lot of the book is about her longing for his love and coming to terms with what
[5:07]he is and what he can't be for her, you know, and that's it's hard.
[5:11]Some of that is hard.
[5:13]And also really resonated with me that she never gave up.
[5:18]She doesn't really give up hope.
[5:22]There's all this, I feel like with parents and parental love, there's always this benefit
[5:27]of the doubt, right?
[5:28]Well, maybe this time they'll come through or so somebody in the comments said who
[5:33]was Jenna Pick.
[5:35]So I wanted to clarify.
[5:36]So Jenna Bush Hager is the co-host of today's show with Hoda and she has a book club called
[5:42]Read With Jenna and the Read With Jenna book club picks a book every month.
[5:46]And this was the January book for Read With Jenna.
[5:49]Anyway, just to clarify, I was supposed to not look at the comments, but I looked at the
[5:52]comments, got distracted.
[5:53]See, this is like, sorry, Marjorie, I wasn't supposed to do that.
[5:56]Anyway, one of the big through lines in this story is climbing, right?
[6:01]And trying to attain heights both figuratively and physically.
[6:06]Tell me about that piece of the narrative.
[6:08]And do you climb rocks or where did you even come up with this?
[6:11]You're from Hawaii and we're rock climbing in Massachusetts.
[6:14]What the heck?
[6:15]Where did that come from?
[6:16]Well, we have rocks in Hawaii too, but I am not much of a climber.
[6:22]I'm sort of like Sam's first boyfriend who says, I repelled a little bit in camp.
[6:28]Too much.
[6:29]I have four children, two of them climb a little bit, like just for fun.
[6:32]I was just really, you know, so again, not a climber, definitely an observer as a writer.
[6:38]And I have watched people outside.
[6:39]If you go hiking around here with our beautiful New England boulders, you can see people
[6:44]climbing out there in the woods.
[6:46]And of course, climbing is so popular with gyms everywhere and lots of little kids climb.
[6:51]And I was really interested in the sport because it has a side to it that's sort of privileged
[6:56]where like children are on teams and they're competing in a gym, which is offensive.
[7:02]And there's a side to it that's very laid back and it's just all about like going
[7:06]bouldering outside with your friends and it's not just doing it yourself.
[7:10]In that respect, it's a little bit like the surfing that I grew up with, like there
[7:14]are competitive surfers and there are surfers who just like hang out on the beach and
[7:19]it's like a whole culture and like they're very mellow and they're all about like, let's
[7:23]share our food and let's have some beer and you know, just enjoy nature.
[7:27]So I was interested in those two sides of it and Sam experiences both in the book.
[7:32]She has a friend who's, you know, from a wealthier family who is involved in the gym and
[7:36]she gets a little bit involved in that competitive culture of climbing.
[7:40]And she also gets to know some people who just climb outside for fun.
[7:45]And I was just interested in the sport in that sense.
[7:47]I was also super interested in the idea that like an activity can mean different things
[7:51]to you as you get older, that, you know, the thing that you're really passionate about
[7:55]when you're 10, like you might feel differently about when you're 16.
[7:58]And you might come back to when you're 30 and again feel differently about it in that
[8:03]way.
[8:04]The other thing that really fascinated me about climbing is that it's a sport that requires
[8:09]a lot of strategy and intellectual.
[8:11]So you have to be smart to climb, like you have to think your way through and how you're
[8:15]going to do something.
[8:16]It's not about route strength necessarily.
[8:18]And to me that, that says a lot about sort of how you go through life, you know, there's
[8:23]no route planned out for you.
[8:25]You have to like figure it out as you go along.
[8:27]And if you make one choice, then that precludes other choices.
[8:32]You put your hand here and then like, what do you do with your other foot, you know?
[8:36]And so I was really interested in that aspect of it as well.
[8:39]And she's smart and she's smart on the wall, she's smart physically and stageally.
[8:44]It seems like she has dyslexia or some sort of learning reading issue that's never particularly
[8:50]diagnosed.
[8:51]It sounds like her father probably had that as well.
[8:54]And some of the homeworks of that is having this like massive creativity in other areas.
[8:59]And I feel like the two of them in particular, the way the brilliance with the climbing
[9:03]and those scenes in the book where all of a sudden she just like finds a new way or she's
[9:07]like, oh, I can go this way or like it's so exciting as the reader to be like, yes, you're
[9:12]going there.
[9:13]But I love how you're showing sort of neuro diversity in its greatest form in the struggles
[9:19]in the school, but also where the strengths come into.
[9:23]Totally.
[9:24]And there's so many different ways to learn and to grow.
[9:28]And you're right, like she is one who she says that she hates reading when she's a
[9:32]little kid.
[9:33]You know, she clearly struggles, but she gets to, she gets extra help in school, you know.
[9:38]And she tells her mom, she hates books, but she's very bright.
[9:42]And you know, she excelled in other ways.
[9:45]Her brother also has his challenges learning and with focus and behavior.
[9:51]So I would say, yes, neuro diversity is definitely present.
[9:55]And you know, there are many different kinds of intelligences.
[9:57]And I was just really, really interested in that.
[10:00]You know, she's smart as a kid without being bookish
[10:03]Mm-hmm. And one of the things that I was super interested in when I thought about writing a coming-of-age story
[10:08]It was writing one in which the protagonist doesn't become me the author
[10:12]You know like a lot of books, you know like they're growing in the growing and at the end they become a novel or
[10:18]like a film like a wonderful thing like girlhood like you know
[10:23]Ladybird or I should say ladybird ladybirds growing up in California and then at the end of the book
[10:29]She comes to New York and she's gonna like become Greta Gerwig like or boyhood, which is the one I was thinking of
[10:35]Yeah, you know at the end of the film
[10:38]You know, he becomes a photographer and he's almost way to becoming a filmmaker like Richard Linkblad
[10:44]You know, what is it like to write about a coming the coming of age of somebody who's different from the author not the bookish
[10:50]I have to tell you I'm writing a novel now
[10:53]It just do in like two weeks and that is exactly what happens in the novel. So maybe I need to switch it up
[10:59]Nothing that's a bad thing. No, I'll support you of the artist of young man. No, if you lots of examples
[11:06]March and little women
[11:08]Maybe I'll switch it up
[11:10]Don't toss the whole career away. Maybe this is the big breakthrough. I've been looking for
[11:15]You talked to already a little about the wealth disparity and how that really can affect
[11:21]Training and that's also such a huge issue that does not get discussed enough
[11:25]I feel like for all athletes even track and field athletes today and people who need the to train
[11:31]But then how do they support themselves? How do they do all the therapies?
[11:34]They need and for rock climbing and all of it and there is one scene where
[11:38]Her coach asks her where she's been or why she had to miss a session or something and she was like transportation
[11:44]She just left it back
[11:46]Which I loved but it's true. There are so many
[11:50]Roadblocks to success as an athlete. So just talk about that for a moment
[11:54]Yeah, she doesn't you know her mom is a single mom's working really hard
[11:59]and they have one car and one driver and
[12:02]If her mom can't take her and it's far, you know, she doesn't live in the city
[12:06]She's to take the bus if she can't the her mom can't take her and that's over an hour
[12:11]And so things happen and like you you can be late and you can miss and her friend
[12:16]Halley who you know comes from a comfortably off-family like her dad installed
[12:20]They like a chin up bar and her door frame so that she couldn't get strong and you know when Sam
[12:26]That's her mom. It's like they're renting an apartment. They can't do that. She's like no it'll damage the door
[12:32]Like we can't do that. So the reality is really different for her
[12:37]The mom character was was fabulous too
[12:39]I mean all of her day-to-day struggles
[12:43]Like how did the logistics of her life which were very stressful and how we just one thing falls out of place
[12:50]Like the whole the whole casket the card-toured cascades and they're and towards the end of the book
[12:57]When she's thinking about her the rest of her life
[13:01]There was like an off-hand thing where it said she was 38 years old and I was like 30 age
[13:06]She's like a baby. I can't believe that she was this young
[13:11]Not that anyway that if it was like you know it intellectually because she like dropped out of college
[13:16]I know I know I but you don't think of it because and the reason is because it's all from Sam's point of view
[13:21]And she thinks that her mom is her mom. Yes
[13:23]Another thing that happens when your kid like your parents are old
[13:27]Like even if they're young they're old because they're your parents. So even when her mom says I'm
[13:33]I'm young. I've got my whole life ahead of me. I'm you know 37 and half years old
[13:38]Sounds like yeah right mom. You know like she still thinks that's old because she's like 20. Yeah or 21
[13:45]So yeah, that perspective on ages is very interesting
[13:48]But I see my son is like
[13:50]My youngest son. I have four kids also and my youngest is eight
[13:53]He's like are you gonna be alive for my graduation? And I'm like I hope so. Come on
[13:59]You'd be walking like a sense of time
[14:02]Right like you're are you gonna have a cane and I was like what no
[14:06]Anyway, yes
[14:09]But I actually think your point of view with Sam is so interesting because it almost for a
[14:14]While could be a YA novel right? It almost
[14:19]Could have been packaged that way and marketed to that age group more. So I wondered if that was a debate you had or if this was firmly
[14:28]Adult book, but you want us to see the coming of age of a teen
[14:32]I mean up through past teenage years, but tell me about that. That's a really that's a really astute question
[14:36]I can tell that you're very much in the book world. No, it's good
[14:41]I thought about it when I was writing it. I was just sort of like because the
[14:45]One of the things I do in the book is that the language starts very simple because her
[14:49]Perspective is a child's perspective and then it gets more sophisticated as she grows up
[14:54]But I was afraid that the first people who read this book
[14:56]We're gonna open it up and be like is this a children's story? Is this why I like what is this? You know what category is this?
[15:03]And I was I was happy that my editor just thought you know thought of it as really a book for adults
[15:10]And of course there is crossover lots of adults read books for chip so-called books for children or why these are just marketing
[15:16]categories that break down of course
[15:19]But she really thought like she saw that it was
[15:23]More sophisticated than it led on at the beginning when she saw that it was really about the process and the growth of this girl
[15:30]So so yeah, it starts off simple like a children's story and you're like oh is this this is this little girl and she's in school
[15:38]Like every clear like what's happening and then but you know
[15:41]It takes her from the inside through adolescence and becoming a young woman as well
[15:47]Well, yeah, that once I kept reading and it's all about her relationships and you know
[15:51]Well, the physics I was like, okay. Okay. Yeah. Maybe it's not remote in a quimby. It's not everybody. Yeah, exactly
[15:59]It was also interesting how you brought in what it's like to have a family in which there are two different deaths
[16:05]Right the same mom two dads and the effect of the dad on the other sibling and when that when the one would swoop in and obviously
[16:12]They had more of a you know financial relationship with one dad than the other
[16:16]Did you say very early? But how to navigate that as a child and what happens if that's not a particularly positive thing for the family structure
[16:25]Yeah, it's it's hard and it's complicated
[16:27]And I think in that case what what really is shown is what a rock
[16:32]Courtney the mom is yes, that she she's the one who holds those children together and the two children are really close
[16:38]Even though they are you know far apart in age and have different fathers
[16:42]They are this the three of them really are like this family unit and it's really thanks to Courtney
[16:47]Because she's the one who's there every day. She's the one who you know does all of the hard-boring
[16:54]Things the difficult things the not fun thing not the not fun part of parenthood as well as the fun parts
[17:01]She's tired all the time. Did you have like a mental image of Courtney? Do you have an actress in mind like?
[17:08]Like what is she look
[17:12]Yeah, that's a good question. I think of her as like
[17:16]Like she's beautiful, but she's a little bit getting heavy
[17:20]And she oh, I have to think about who it would be like somebody real looking, you know
[17:26]Not a movie star type yeah, this is tough. This is tough. Yeah, but she loves hair. She's a hairstylist. So, you know, she loves hair
[17:35]I feel like I have to ask Courtney, you know, it's like you're so real to me. It's like I'll have to ask each of the people like who would play them
[17:43]Do you miss hanging out with Courtney all day or do you feel like talking about her keeps her in the and Sam of course and all the characters
[17:49]But are you so down in novel?
[17:52]Yeah, they seem sort of real sort of caught an amber in my mind. Wow, amazing
[17:58]Your career. Take us through that. This is not your first book. Take us through the whole thing. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, we don't have a lot of time. So
[18:09]Yeah, okay, this is the clip notes. I started I want it to be a writer since I've seven years old. I really want to be a writer
[18:17]I started writing seriously all through high school
[18:21]My first story was published when I was 19. I published short stories. I started by writing short stories
[18:27]And I recommend that to people interested in writing. It's a little bit more bite size
[18:32]I then started writing novels. I again wrote all from school and just kept publishing. I had four children kept writing
[18:41]You know, women don't of what if you say mothers don't have time to read well. Yeah, they do make time to read mothers make time to read mothers can make time to write sometimes
[18:49]But I've been writing, you know, sort of all through it and my kids are now my youngest child is in college and my oldest child
[18:58]Who's 10 years older than my youngest is an economist?
[19:01]And he actually said to me I've noticed that your productivity has gone way up since we'd all left home
[19:08]And I was like hmm. You don't have to be a labor economist to figure that one out
[19:12]like
[19:15]So I am writing more now. I would say than when my children were all little, but I kept working out steadily
[19:22]And so it's and I've written like eight or nine books or maybe 10. I'm not sure
[19:28]You just lose track after a while. You're just that from the fake it's like
[19:31]No, I just I don't focus on that. I just I work on the thing at hand. I live in the moment
[19:36]Nice. I like it. I like it. And what are you writing something new now?
[19:41]Yes, I am doing couple things. I have a new novel which is coming out in
[19:47]2025 I think it's scheduled for which it seems like tomorrow
[19:51]So and I wrote it a lot of it when I was writing this book, which is weird. It's a very very different book
[19:57]But I wrote them at the same time, but I um
[20:00]I don't talk about the stuff that is that I'm, you know, in the
[20:02]middle of until it's done, until it's really done.
[20:05]Wait, how did you write two books at the same time?
[20:09]Thanks for writing today.
[20:10]And I don't hear a day of that.
[20:12]Yeah.
[20:12]Well, here's the thing.
[20:14]I write just a little, I like to sort of be one of those
[20:18]writers who sort of chips away at things.
[20:19]I like a little bit at a time.
[20:20]So after like three hours on something, I get really tired.
[20:25]So what I do is like a session in the morning on say Sam.
[20:28]And then in the afternoon, I do the other project because I'd
[20:32]be done for the day on the first one.
[20:34]If that makes sense, I'd just like to switch it up.
[20:37]And I don't try to write, again, I don't try to write a huge
[20:40]amount of either of them, but I just try to be very consistent.
[20:44]That's how I did, that's how I did it.
[20:46]Also, I did it because I had to do it because I was just
[20:49]compelled to write this other book really.
[20:54]And you didn't get confused in all the characters or any of
[20:56]that stuff.
[20:57]No, they're very different.
[21:00]OK, wow, that's amazing.
[21:03]And I didn't do that when I had four little kids at home.
[21:05]I should say, that's what that was, that's like me as the
[21:07]empty nester version of the mom.
[21:11]But you still have your 10 year old at home, right?
[21:13]No, no, no, my young getsons in college now.
[21:15]Yeah.
[21:15]Oh, I thought you said someone was 10.
[21:17]Then I was like, how did she, she's 10 years younger than my
[21:19]oldest 10 year gap between my oldest and my youngest child.
[21:22]I was literally like, how does she know?
[21:24]No, no, no, 10 year old.
[21:25]You're not a kid.
[21:26]No, no, no, no, no, no, my oldest is an economist.
[21:30]And he's 30.
[21:30]I have a 27 year old, a 23 year old and a 20 year old.
[21:34]I see.
[21:35]I see.
[21:35]So that's it.
[21:35]Yeah.
[21:36]OK, so now like the floodgates are open and you're just
[21:39]writing non-staff.
[21:40]You got nothing to hold you back.
[21:41]I have no one to blame anymore, which is a problem.
[21:44]No one to blame except myself and think don't go well.
[21:47]Another way to look at it.
[21:49]There's a theme is recorcing through this book, both in Sam's
[21:53]relationships with the men in her life, including her father
[21:57]and her mom's other, I don't even know what to call that guy.
[22:01]Her brother's father and the relationships that she gets in.
[22:06]And I feel like there aren't a lot of men in here that make you
[22:11]feel really good about men.
[22:13]What was that about and where did that come from?
[22:16]Well, let's let's defend.
[22:17]Let's defend.
[22:19]Who should have divorced by Justin?
[22:20]OK, he's a good one.
[22:22]He's there's a fair, a few good ones.
[22:23]OK, OK, I have to say, although Sam's dad is, you know, he's so
[22:30]flawed, but I love him.
[22:32]I love that character.
[22:33]So I love him too.
[22:35]Her brother's dad is more problematic and can be pretty brutal at times.
[22:39]So yeah, so what is going on with that?
[22:41]Well, again, it's all from Sam's point of view.
[22:44]And her point of view evolved as she gets older.
[22:46]And if the book continued, it would continue to evolve.
[22:49]So I think at times that this is what she sees, you know, around her.
[22:53]She also has a mentor in her life.
[22:55]He's a man who's her professor at North Shore Community College.
[22:59]Yeah, so, you know, it's not all bleak.
[23:02]There's kindness, but yeah, no, I hear what you're saying.
[23:04]It's I think it's tough.
[23:05]She sees the world all through her own eyes and comes to see it
[23:09]through her mom's eyes and mom is a single mom left to do left to do
[23:14]really everything.
[23:15]So I like how her first relationship.
[23:19]She was sort of just not into the whole thing at all.
[23:21]And you know, she's like almost wondering like, maybe I'm gay or maybe this
[23:25]or I don't know.
[23:26]And then she enters that not to give anything away.
[23:28]But just in her second relationship, she's like, Oh, this is why people kiss.
[23:33]Yeah, that was awesome.
[23:38]Any any experiences in your own life that have formed this novel?
[23:42]Oh, no, I'm not a memoirist.
[23:43]I it's all purely fiction, you know, I that's why I like to write fiction.
[23:49]Yeah.
[23:51]Well, it is it is great because you see in her development in Sam's
[23:55]development, you know, what she's looking for.
[23:58]And at times you don't know what you're looking for until you know who you
[24:01]are.
[24:01]Right.
[24:02]And so those things kind of develop in parallel.
[24:04]I feel like did you do that on purpose?
[24:07]Yeah, definitely.
[24:08]I mean, you know, her experiences with these guys trying to figure out what
[24:13]she wants, who she is and also what she wants.
[24:17]And, you know, I think that also looking back when she's older, she may have a
[24:21]very different perspective on some of this stuff.
[24:23]She gets involved with somebody and she thinks she's in love with.
[24:26]She may not think that when she's, you know, 40, when she looks back at that
[24:31]experience.
[24:32]But I wanted and so I took a little bit of a risk because I really chose to
[24:37]stay with her point of view.
[24:39]I really committed to her point of view, even where the reader's like, Oh, no, don't do
[24:43]that, you know, or oh, God, like how can you trust him, you know, or, you know, or
[24:49]you know, you're making a mistake.
[24:50]I just chose to really inhabit her, um, for better and for worse.
[24:55]Amazing.
[24:56]So that's one of the things that happens when you write fiction.
[25:01]I'm very method.
[25:03]Of it.
[25:04]When it was announced that this was a read with Jenna, but club pick Jenna also
[25:09]has option this, right?
[25:10]Is that right or did I get that wrong?
[25:11]No, I got it.
[25:12]Oh, I think that's the name.
[25:13]Oh, that's the name.
[25:13]Yeah, I'm the last.
[25:14]No, I don't know.
[25:15]No, you know what?
[25:15]I'm mixing it up with her February pick.
[25:17]I'm so sorry.
[25:18]Scratch that edit it out of the live feed here.
[25:24]Whoops.
[25:25]But that's okay.
[25:26]It would be really okay.
[25:27]Movie.
[25:27]It's almost like, you know, wild where you're conquering, you know, you could see
[25:31]all the terrain of the rocks and the building that she climbs.
[25:36]And I don't know.
[25:38]It would be very visual, very visual.
[25:40]You'd have to refine the right people like you're saying.
[25:43]You have to cast it well.
[25:44]Yes.
[25:45]Have you seen free solo, the rock climbing?
[25:47]Yes, documentary.
[25:49]Oh, God.
[25:50]Yeah.
[25:50]Yeah.
[25:51]We'll have to do some collaboration or something.
[25:55]It's just incredible.
[25:56]Is that Oh, yeah.
[25:59]When you read for pleasure, which I'm assuming you find time to do, but
[26:02]it's a big assumption.
[26:04]What writers do you love to read?
[26:06]Like, have you read anything amazing lately?
[26:08]And who are some of your long-term inspiring authors and current?
[26:13]Well, I'm sorry.
[26:15]When writer I really love is Lily King, Victoria and writers and lovers,
[26:20]which is set here in Cambridge where I live.
[26:22]And she's an, she's just funny and smart and sensitive.
[26:26]And she writes, she's a great storyteller.
[26:28]Kevin Wilson, who wrote this amazing book, his last book, he has a new book
[26:34]called Now is Not the Time to Panic.
[26:37]And he wrote this one, nothing to see here.
[26:39]He's got great titles.
[26:40]He is so funny.
[26:42]And again, so smart and his characters are wonderful.
[26:45]Like, he's managed to be sort of funny and satirical, but also sensitive and
[26:49]character driven at the same time, which is such a tricky thing to do with a
[26:52]light touch.
[26:53]So, you know, those are two novelists I love.
[26:56]I also love short stories.
[26:58]And I have a friend named Gish Jen, who wrote a recent, I think it's just
[27:03]out in paperback called Thank You, Mr. Nixon.
[27:06]And it's like stories of China and the Chinese diaspora of Chinese America.
[27:11]And again, oh, there's a theme here.
[27:14]She's also funny and all the smart, but the cultural issues that she tackles
[27:19]with such a light hand, she does such a good job with it.
[27:22]She's, she's another one.
[27:25]So I do like to try to keep up with fiction if I can.
[27:28]I also read a lot of nonfiction and biography and just all over the place.
[27:33]Amazing.
[27:34]When you talked about the name of Kevin Wilson having great covers, it brought
[27:38]to mind this current debate, which is, do you think it's better to have a title
[27:42]like yours, which is one word, you know, the one word versus multi word titles.
[27:46]Like, where do you fall on that?
[27:47]And what do you think, if you write no books, you can just do all of the balls
[27:51]depending on the book, right?
[27:52]I actually kept trying to think of a good title for this book that was like
[27:56]multi word, like, and all of the titles that I came up with sounded so pretentious.
[28:01]And I felt like they weren't working.
[28:03]And my working title for the book was Sam and the book is just all her.
[28:07]This book is not a landscape and support it.
[28:11]And it is her and it's her face, not her face, but a photograph of a girl who,
[28:16]my editor thought looked like her, you know, with her intensity and her name.
[28:22]And that proved to be the best, the best title for this book.
[28:25]So I'm all about just, you pick what is appropriate to that project.
[28:31]And if you love all different kinds of titles and just write something else and,
[28:35]you know, you'll find that the long title will be appropriate to that, I think.
[28:40]Well, I'm curious for the people listening if they have a view, if you find yourself
[28:44]gravitating towards longer titles or shorter titles or if you haven't even noticed
[28:48]because people in publishing are always asking about this.
[28:52]Anyway, thank you very much.
[28:53]Thank you so much, Allegra, and good luck with this book and Zibi.
[28:55]Good luck with everything and we'll talk soon and thank you all.
[28:58]Thank you.
[28:59]Thank you.
[29:00]Bye.
[29:02]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[29:06]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[29:11]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club
[29:15]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[29:18]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[29:19]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[29:22]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.