David Sax, THE FUTURE IS ANALOG: How to Create a More Human World
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[1:03]David Sacks is the author of the future as analog, how to create a more human world.
[1:07]David is a writer, reporter, and speaker, who specializes in business and culture.
[1:12]His book, The Revenge of Analog, was a number one Washington Post, bestseller, was selected
[1:16]as one of Machiku Kakutani's top 10 books of the year for 2016 for the New York Times,
[1:22]and has been translated into six languages.
[1:24]He lives in Toronto.
[1:26]Welcome, David.
[1:27]Thank you so much for coming on momstone have time to read books to discuss.
[1:30]The future is analog, how to create a more human world.
[1:34]It's my pleasure.
[1:35]I know that your son is home from school behind the couch today, so you clearly don't
[1:39]have time to read books, but I appreciate you taking the time to speak with me in between
[1:44]rounds of chicken soup, delivery, or whatever else it is that.
[1:48]Thank you so much.
[1:49]Thank you.
[1:50]Yes.
[1:51]Oh, I've been there.
[1:52]David, your book came recommended to me by so many people.
[1:54]So feel good about all the word of mouth that is.
[1:57]That's wonderful to hear.
[1:58]Yes.
[2:00]A lot of people I know somehow pick me about, and this happened to be one of them.
[2:04]So like, all right, let's do it.
[2:06]Can't wait to hear.
[2:08]I'm honored to be here.
[2:09]And thank you.
[2:10]It's a funny thing as a writer, like, you put these ideas out in the world.
[2:14]And really, you never know how they land.
[2:19]The sales info takes like six months to arrive, and if you don't land on the bestseller
[2:23]list immediately, and most of that's just taken up by Malcolm Gladwell and Jake at
[2:27]Rowland.
[2:28]Like, um...
[2:29]Yes.
[2:30]Yes, of course.
[2:31]The Danielle steals.
[2:32]You really have no right.
[2:33]It's like this void.
[2:34]So when someone's like, oh, I heard about your book from another human being, you're like,
[2:37]wait, what?
[2:38]Is it my mom?
[2:39]Have you known my mom?
[2:41]Maybe you do.
[2:42]I don't think it was your mom, but it might have been.
[2:44]Okay.
[2:45]Never know.
[2:46]Okay.
[2:47]Talk to everyone about your book.
[2:48]The future is analog.
[2:49]How to create a more human world.
[2:51]How should we create a more human world?
[2:52]Tell us all about your book.
[2:54]Sure.
[2:55]This book is unabashedly a pandemic book.
[2:59]It's a pandemic memoir.
[3:00]It is a reflection in a very sort of directed way of those really intense months and
[3:06]years of 2020 and 2021 when all we had was digital.
[3:13]And the reason I sort of wrote about that was because I'd written another book in 2016
[3:17]called the Revenge of Analog.
[3:18]And that book looked at why we were seeing the return of things like brick and mortar
[3:23]bookstores, which I know you just opened, muscle tough, vinyl records, film cameras,
[3:28]paper notebooks.
[3:29]Right?
[3:30]Why were these things growing at a time when everybody had told us they were done, they
[3:34]were obsolete, they had no purpose anymore.
[3:37]And not only that, but they were driven by sort of younger people.
[3:39]And I kept coming up against this notion when I would go give talks or do interviews.
[3:45]No, no, no, but the future is digital.
[3:47]We know the future is digital or we're living in a digital world.
[3:50]And I kept questioning that assumption.
[3:52]And then all of a sudden it's March of 2020, you know, here I am living with my mother
[3:57]son-in-law and like her house because it had more space with my kids and wife and all
[4:02]of a sudden that digital future was here.
[4:04]Right?
[4:05]You know, school work, ass over, shopping, eating, any sort of culture I wanted to
[4:11]watch, any concert, any, everything was digital.
[4:16]That digital future had arrived.
[4:18]Both my kids had their bar, my twin, my older twins, bar and bought Mitzvahs on Zoom during
[4:22]the pandemic.
[4:23]FYI.
[4:24]You saved some money.
[4:25]I did.
[4:26]FYI.
[4:27]It was perfect.
[4:28]Yeah.
[4:29]Like that, you know, minus a DJ, like you're, you're good.
[4:32]They have their colleges covered now and muzzled up to both of them.
[4:36]Thank you.
[4:37]Thank you.
[4:38]And that was it.
[4:39]The experience that I felt and most people felt was, was a negative one.
[4:43]Like if this is the digital future, what does it actually teach us?
[4:47]And I think as those weeks and months went on, I started reflecting on that.
[4:51]And those reflections and the sort of research behind what went on really forms the
[4:56]core of this book.
[4:57]So when I say the future is analog and it is really this sort of declaration against
[5:03]the assumption that the digital future is inevitable and it's where we're going and it's
[5:07]sort of the good thing.
[5:08]And I'm saying, look, we lived through that.
[5:10]We had this once in a history ability to road test and kick the tires of this future that
[5:18]we've been promised for decades, right, you know, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and everybody
[5:23]is getting up there and saying, Hey, in the future, you know, you're going to go to school
[5:27]and go to work online.
[5:28]It isn't going to be amazing.
[5:30]And, you know, you're going to be able to just touch your phone and anything will be brought
[5:33]to you and people like, oh my God, that's incredible.
[5:36]And then all of a sudden you're sitting in your sweatpants, doesn't matter if you have
[5:39]a beautiful library house like you have in Park Avenue or a small house in Toronto with
[5:45]a keyboard that I bought to play on during the pandemic and did it about three times.
[5:50]It's for sale if you want it.
[5:52]I might as a barman, it's a gift, you know, that experience was unfulfilling for most people
[6:00]as a total sort of thing.
[6:02]There's not a lot of people who are like, you know what, this is great.
[6:04]I am still not leaving my house.
[6:05]I am happy to do everything online.
[6:07]I don't need to ride a bike again.
[6:08]I have my Peloton.
[6:09]I don't need to go to school.
[6:10]I'm happy with the virtual version.
[6:12]The number of people who still opt for that at this point in 2023 are statistically insignificant
[6:18]number of people.
[6:20]And so what did that experience teach us about the not only limits of digital technology,
[6:29]but the value of analog.
[6:31]And when I say analog, I mean in the broadest possible sense of non digital, the physical
[6:37]spaces, school, work, synagogue, bookstores, libraries, parks, you name it, but also most
[6:46]importantly, the relationships that happen in the spaces between coworkers, between students
[6:50]and each other, between students and their teachers, between the barista that gives you
[6:54]your coffee in the morning at the coffee shop around the corner from your house.
[6:57]All of those things would be craved so much.
[7:00]And so the book is really unpacking what it is that we learned about the value of those
[7:04]things and how then do we think about it going forward as new technologies like artificial
[7:10]intelligence and virtual reality come along and those who are selling them are saying,
[7:15]hey, this is the future.
[7:16]Like I'm having a debate in an hour with a guy who is a singularity travel consultant.
[7:25]And his whole thing is that in the future, travel is going to be virtual that we are going
[7:30]to strap goggles under eyes or there'll be lenses, contact lenses and like you don't need
[7:35]to go skiing in Colorado because we're going to bring Colorado to you, but you're going
[7:39]to be skiing denim mountain on the back of a whale or some other such acid trip.
[7:43]And we're having a debate about this, but there are the still those people who are
[7:45]frostal sizing and believing that, you know, the inevitability of our future is inherently
[7:51]digital.
[7:52]And I'm saying, hold on, I think we learned about that.
[7:56]I know where that debate, I have a sense of where that debate will end up.
[7:59]If I had to put money on one side or the other, there is a trade off to some degree about
[8:05]productivity and connection, right?
[8:08]I feel like what you give up to order all your gifts online for a holiday is all the,
[8:15]you might do it faster, but you're giving up interacting with all the people going shopping
[8:20]with people you love being thoughtful and the things you give, but it might not be done
[8:24]as fast.
[8:25]So I feel like that is the underlying tension of the whole digital versus analog thing
[8:29]in my mind.
[8:30]Right.
[8:31]We can now do almost anything online, right?
[8:35]There are many activities.
[8:37]And I think we saw this in the pandemic.
[8:39]What was amazing was how quickly we were able to transition so much of our lives and our economy
[8:45]and our sort of services into a digital version, right?
[8:48]Like it's incredible that, you know, by March 30th, 2020, like 90% of corporations and
[8:55]companies and businesses didn't just collapse and go bankrupt.
[8:57]Like it was just kind of like, oh, okay, I guess our ad firm entire city government
[9:05]military, like all of it.
[9:06]Actually, yeah, everybody can do this at home and their pajamas, you know, everyone kind
[9:11]of figured it out and it was relatively simple and the technology already existed and like
[9:17]we sort of made it work.
[9:18]But I think what we saw the difference is because you can do it, it may be technically
[9:23]possible, but the difference between something being technically possible and desirable in
[9:28]every kind of circumstance is very different.
[9:31]And that gap took us a while to realize and I think now it's the thing that we're still
[9:36]reckoning with.
[9:38]And so that question of digital convenience versus a harder to pin down kind of qualitative
[9:45]aspect of the analog experience is the great debate and I'd say sort of task of our time
[9:53]as we figure out the future.
[9:55]And this conversation is a great example of it, right?
[9:57]Through this incredible technology.
[10:00]We are able to have this conversation across, I don't know, you're in New York, right? Like,
[10:05]you know, 500 miles of Great Lake and Tundra or whatever it is. I'm here in Toronto.
[10:12]It's costs us nothing, right? Maybe you buy the Zoom premium subscription because you do a bunch
[10:17]of these. So it costs you 20 bucks a month or whatever. It's high quality. It's good. It's very
[10:22]convenient. I am in my swine pants. I'm also in my swine pants. Yeah. As we should be,
[10:27]yeah. Those are lessons we all learned, right? And yet, if you and I had met in New York,
[10:34]and we had sat down face-to-face with a microphone and recorded this conversation in your lovely
[10:40]living room library with your son and your beautiful dog, right, hanging out behind the couch,
[10:45]we would have had a much different conversation. And I bet it would have been a richer conversation,
[10:51]a more memorable conversation, because we would be two human beings, two physical creatures
[10:58]speaking in the same space in the way that we've evolved to do. And so the convenience of the
[11:02]experience in this case is wonderful. Probably wouldn't have happened if you were like, okay,
[11:07]well, if you're ever in New York, come and do it. I'm like, all right, well, how much is a flight?
[11:10]And I'm just hotel and you know, can I leave my kids and blah, blah, blah, blah versus this.
[11:15]But when you talk about the digital future and people do, saying, no, this is it,
[11:20]this is all you need. And I think what we saw was that when this was just nine hours a day of
[11:27]doing this, you can do it. It might be more economical. It might be more convenient, but it doesn't
[11:32]necessarily make for a better conversation. And it doesn't add up to something that makes you feel
[11:39]more human, right? It takes away if you're sitting inside all day in your sweatpants,
[11:45]having these digital conversations in the same flat piece of glass day in and day out, right?
[11:51]There's a form of incarceration inherent in that.
[11:56]Yeah, I think before the pandemic, I did all my interviews here in person.
[12:01]People did come over and it was really nice. They would come over. I would have to budget
[12:05]double the time in my day, right? Now I budget half an hour, but then I would budget an hour
[12:10]and people would come over and we'd like hang out in my kitchen of coffee and like often my
[12:14]husband was around saying hello, we were chatting about whatever. And then we would come up and do
[12:18]the podcast and then we would like to chat and take a picture and then they would leave.
[12:21]And that was amazing. So I did fewer, but they were, they were the same length conversation.
[12:29]But yes, there was, it was slightly different. I like to think I'm such a good interviewer
[12:32]that my conversations on Zoom are just as good now. But I would obviously much rather have people
[12:39]in person. A coffee and cake. Coffee and cake. Yeah. Right. What's the value of that? Yeah.
[12:44]On the, you know, the dollars and cents of it. Oh, look how much more profitable your podcast is
[12:50]because you're not spending, I don't know, 200 hours a year on end to me cakes or zippers.
[12:53]I actually have a crumb. My family, my, my head since family has a crumb cake business that I
[12:57]helped like scale right before the pandemic. Yeah, it's called Nini's treats. You can get it on
[13:01]gold belly. So we actually have some downstairs. You would have had crumb cake. But anyway,
[13:05]well, this is just, you're just torturing me next time you're in New York. Next time you're in New
[13:10]York, I'll have some crumb cake here. And we can do a postscript or something. I'm going to read
[13:15]another book specifically for that purpose. An elegy for crumb cake. You know, it's, again, it's like,
[13:23]let's just get really big, right? Yep. Human existence. Why are we here? What is the point of it
[13:28]all, you know, like truly a philosophical thing? As a writer, as somebody hosting a podcast about
[13:35]books and building a, as a media company, now a bookstore about books like, is it about selling
[13:40]books? Is it about selling ads? Is it about building this sort of large scalable business? Is it
[13:43]about me selling a bestseller? So there's some part of it that is doing it. But a large part of the
[13:48]reason why we do this, I'm the right part of why you wrote books. I imagine and other people
[13:54]write books and then, you know, all the potential for failure and the ego ride and all that is like
[13:59]the pleasure of those things. The pleasure of those inefficiencies, you know, I love going on book tour.
[14:06]This book tour, I had a stop, I had two things in the West Coast between Seattle and Portland.
[14:13]And I told my public is like, I don't want to fly. I'm flying every single day on this book tour.
[14:17]Can I get a train? And I took a four hour train to the Pacific Northwest. Like, if you haven't
[14:23]taken a train in a while, it's pretty great. This is like a double decker thing. Yeah, I was,
[14:28]I mean, exactly the orange express, it is Amtrak. But just looking out at the kind of rainy
[14:33]cascades and passing by all these things for four hours, like, there was this luxury of that
[14:39]experience and then to be able to go to these bookstores and cultural centers and have these talks
[14:45]with, you know, 50, 40 people. I had three people knitting at my events. I guess it's a demographic
[14:52]thing. I spoke at a typewriter store. And none of that fits into the economic calculus of what
[14:57]I'm doing. And yet the richness of that experience is all in its physicality. It's all in the
[15:03]analog. I'm ranting. I'm going to just, no, I mean, I don't think though that anybody necessarily
[15:11]starts out being a writer for the money, you know, you could be a banker. Like, if that's really
[15:16]the goal, there are other professions that are money, literally any other profession.
[15:23]Maybe not any, but many, maybe not any. But I don't think that when people go in book tour,
[15:30]it's all about sales anyway. And I don't do double the podcasts now for the revenue. I,
[15:35]I just do it because I'm trying to like get more books out into the world and help people. It's
[15:41]not, it doesn't help my, in fact, there's a theory that it might even like to track that maybe
[15:45]people want less podcasts than I give. But I'm like, I don't care. So because you never know what
[15:49]people are going to respond to or what they need to hear. But anyway, I love the train idea. I
[15:53]feel like if I took a train, I would be on my computer the whole time and miss the whole thing. So
[15:57]you have to like make the decision though. Do I want to spend four hours looking out the window versus
[16:01]like working on a flight, right? And then more that? By on that train. Yeah, it's, it's, you know,
[16:06]I read some news. I responded to some things. And I think there's that, that balance, right?
[16:12]Of like, we can always be on, we can always be doing something productive online. But
[16:19]if we do that all day, every day, what does that add up to, right? What does it give us? What is,
[16:24]what is the end goal of that? Because we've seen that we, it will just fill an occupy any space
[16:29]that we have. Right. And we tried that early on in the pandemic. We tried all day school and,
[16:35]you know, going from virtual school to balance your virtual work to, let's do, let's do a
[16:41]a concert, let's do a baking class, let's do a church service, let's, you know, go do this tour
[16:47]of, of a city or whatever. And, and after a while, you're like, TV, computer, phone, iPad, you know,
[16:55]in the circle, you didn't feel better. You felt depleted in a way. Yeah. So what is that, what
[17:01]is that balance? So I totally agree. But I wouldn't necessarily write a whole book about it. So
[17:08]why is this your thing? Why did you write a book about it? Why are you so passionate about it? And
[17:13]like, how did you get here? Well, I'm a writer. So it's what I do every time I'm like, Oh, I should
[17:18]maybe think about something else. You know, maybe I should do a podcast. Maybe I should do like a
[17:22]film and someone's like, well, you should write the book first. And then it's like, Oh, okay, fine. This
[17:26]is what I know how to do. This is my fifth book. So it's, it does come, come easily to me. And
[17:31]actually this started out as a conversation about a podcast for the podcast company. And ultimately
[17:36]go forward due to contract stuff or rights or whatever. But I think there was this to me urgency about
[17:46]it. And whenever I write a book, it's, it's a way to answer some sort of nagging question or
[17:52]feeling or thing that I keep coming back to. Right. And so each book that I've written has been
[17:59]some version of that. My first book was about Jewish delis. And it started in university as a paper.
[18:05]And it's like, why, what, where are all the Jewish delis that I used to grow up going to? They're
[18:08]all closing. Why is that happening? And that question, I'm coming back to me as I was a young
[18:13]freelance journalist in South America. And it's like, maybe I should pursue this. Maybe
[18:17]I should write a book on this. And then every other book that I've written has been some sort of
[18:23]version of some nagging question that I can't quite answer. And I want to find the answer too.
[18:30]And that challenge of this of saying, yes, yes, yes, yes, you're, you know, you believe analog is
[18:36]having this sort of moment. But it's inevitable. The future is digital. It really came to a
[18:41]head at that time. Right. It was something I was thinking about beforehand and really leading up
[18:46]right to this sort of onset of the pandemic when all of a sudden everything was fully digital.
[18:52]And you would turn on CNBC or CNN or, you know, read the news and LinkedIn. And everyone's like,
[18:58]this is it. There's no going back. This is the new normal, right? There's no, no one's ever going
[19:03]to an office again. You know, kids going to be learning from schools, this is going to be this
[19:07]quantum leap in education. Restaurants will be done. Like no, we're just going to order gold,
[19:12]belly caviar, your breeds, whatever you want to call it. Like it's just plastic bins, a pad tie
[19:17]are our enough little destiny. And I think the way I answer those questions is by diving in and
[19:23]wrestling with that idea over the course of a couple hundred pages over a year.
[19:28]May not be the best way to do things, but the only way. But how did you become a writer?
[19:32]Like, did you grow up in Toronto? Like, what's your point of view? Yes. Yes. I grew up in Toronto.
[19:36]I mean, I've always loved reading. My parents used to send me news week to summer camp
[19:44]as well as arches. Or did you go to summer camp? Camp Walden, Ontario, one of the many
[19:49]camp Waldens, truly original name. And I love the news. I wanted to be a journalist. I never
[19:55]want to be sort of a novelist or anything. And I really started.
[20:00]Right out of university, I didn't study journalism, I studied history, but I wanted to be a foreign correspondent and so I started off by writing articles, I lived in South America for a number of years, I wrote for every type of publication, I wrote about news, I wrote about business, I wrote about travel, whoever would buy something and then
[20:16]add the idea for my first book and figured out how to write a book proposal and sell it and that was just sort of it, it's like 20 something years later, it's continued along the same vein of like I have an idea, could it be an article,
[20:29]can I sell it as a book, okay here we go do this again blah blah blah blah and so I sort of stumbled into it, I think as many people did, but I'm fortunate to be able to do it as my living, you know, all these years.
[20:43]That's awesome.
[20:44]Hello to your kids.
[20:45]My kids are nine and six.
[20:47]My son said he wanted to be an author the other day and I was like, let's just let's, is there a junior engineering program we could put you in like,
[20:56]you ought to go through what I've gone through some.
[21:00]I like rejoice when when they say they might want to be authors and like, yes.
[21:05]Yes, but it's like just so you know, let's, let's pre work some disappointment here into you.
[21:11]That's true.
[21:12]Well at least I feel like I could help set the stage for that.
[21:15]That's yes.
[21:16]I mean, I know a few second generation authors, second generation media people and it's amazing.
[21:21]Like I have a lot of friends who's like, oh, they're parents are in finance there and finance the parents are teacher there teachers like the people who are in media.
[21:29]Like it'll be interesting when the second generation podcasters come around.
[21:32]That's true.
[21:33]That's true.
[21:34]My father was a podcaster and his father was a podcaster.
[21:37]All the way back to the Giddish podcast theater.
[21:41]I think you should have a podcast by the way.
[21:43]Why don't you have a podcast.
[21:45]You know, someone has to be the one journalist and writer that doesn't have a podcast.
[21:48]Yeah.
[21:49]What I recently started was a newsletter sub stack thing.
[21:54]So I spoke a few weeks ago at a typewriter store in Philadelphia, Philly typewriter not to pump their business is America's and actually the world from your typewriter store.
[22:04]It began as this passion project of a guy Brian Cravitz who prepares a specific IBM type of typewriter and these other people came along and gotten to the business with them.
[22:13]And they restored typewriters to museum quality like original everything.
[22:18]They take these things apart cannibalize a typewriters built into one.
[22:22]And they gave me as thanks for speaking there a typewriter, which I logged to New York for my book event there and like put in the overhead department on their candidate to fly home.
[22:32]It's like weighs like 40 pounds.
[22:34]And so now every week, every Monday, I bang out a single page one and a half space of writing and then just take a photograph of it and, you know, type it out and correct whatever horrible spelling there is.
[22:49]And so that's my venture into the world of things.
[22:52]There you go. See the future is digital on your head.
[22:56]That's still in his pajamas.
[22:58]Where is it?
[23:01]I have my grandmother's typewriters right there.
[23:04]Have you ever used it?
[23:05]It doesn't have any ink.
[23:06]You know, it's like doesn't.
[23:08]You can get you can order that.
[23:10]It's actually the those things are quite easy to order.
[23:12]If the keys work.
[23:14]Yeah, the keys work.
[23:15]What's interesting and this gets into the sort of the heart of the analog thing.
[23:19]Like people are like, oh, it's, you know, you're just doing this as a sort of trick or whatever.
[23:23]like it's a gimmick.
[23:24]It's like actually what people find.
[23:26]And I think this is something that's, you know, I get into a little bit in the book.
[23:30]But it becomes inherently obvious when you're doing it is when you make a process or a space sort of non digital, right?
[23:39]You have the conversation in person.
[23:41]You go into the office versus working from home.
[23:43]You use paper and pen to do something versus doing it on software.
[23:47]Or in my case, you type for the first time since you were a child on a typewriter.
[23:52]The limitations of it, like you can't backspace.
[23:55]You can't delete stuff.
[23:56]You have to keep moving forward is actually this incredibly liberating thing.
[24:00]It changes your process.
[24:01]And by doing that, you get an entirely different result.
[24:04]Better worse.
[24:05]It's sort of up to you.
[24:06]But it's very liberating in that way.
[24:09]And I think this gets back to sort of what I was trying to get at in the book and exploring all these areas.
[24:15]Like when we talked about the new normal, we talked about the digital future.
[24:18]And people saying, no, no, no, no, this is going to be great.
[24:20]You're going to be able to work from home.
[24:22]You can be able to work from thing.
[24:23]It's going to be the same.
[24:24]And on the face of it, it is.
[24:26]It's like, oh, you and I are having a conversation.
[24:28]You're saying words.
[24:29]I'm saying words.
[24:30]I'm answering your questions.
[24:31]You're doing this.
[24:32]You know, right?
[24:33]Maybe we do that in person.
[24:35]But it's not.
[24:36]There are differences.
[24:37]And those differences at the end of the day, and especially over time, actually make a different thing.
[24:43]And I think what we owe ourselves to do is kind of run these little experiments in our lives.
[24:48]I'm saying, OK, I'm now going to try.
[24:50]I'm going to try the digital version of this.
[24:52]I'm going to try the analog version.
[24:53]I'm going to see what works best for me.
[24:55]Because each of us have those different needs.
[24:57]And I think it's naive to say, well, the digital one is going to be the better one because it's.
[25:02]Hate by Silicon Valley or it has more money behind it or it's newer or it's sleek.
[25:07]Well, I'm about to go do a totally analog thing, which no digital device can replicate, which is packing my kids for a trip.
[25:16]So I'm going to go back to the analog world for that.
[25:19]But thank you so much.
[25:20]This has been really fun, David.
[25:22]And I hope to meet you in person.
[25:24]And thank you for this book.
[25:26]And I wish you luck on your debate.
[25:29]And yeah.
[25:30]Send me the model of it or take a picture.
[25:33]And I'll last the guys at the typewriter store if they have the ink for it.
[25:37]I'll get it for you.
[25:38]It's fun.
[25:39]It's, you know, I wouldn't want to type every single thing on it.
[25:42]But it's it's not just some cool thing to do.
[25:45]Like it's it's a tool like a paper and pen and anything else.
[25:49]So thank you.
[25:50]Thanks for this.
[25:51]Thanks for this conversation and having me on.
[25:52]Good luck with hacking and your kids latest viral illness.
[25:57]Oh, we've got that.
[25:58]Oh, we've got that.
[25:59]In the endless endless reality of our lives.
[26:01]Yes, indeed.
[26:02]All right.
[26:03]Thank you.
[26:05]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:08]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zebioans and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:13]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[26:20]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[26:24]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.