Cecile Pin, WANDERING SOULS
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[1:03]Cecile Penn is the author of Wandering Souls, a novel.
[1:06]Cecile grew up in Paris, New York City.
[1:09]She moved to London in 18 to study philosophy at University College London and received
[1:13]an MA at King's College London.
[1:15]She writes for Bad Forum Review, was long-listed for their young writer's prize and is
[1:20]a 2021 London Writers Award winner.
[1:23]Wandering Souls is her first novel.
[1:25]And she is also now long-listed for the women's book prize in the UK.
[1:31]Welcome Cecile.
[1:32]Thank you so much for coming on Mumps.
[1:33]Don't have time to read books to discuss your beautiful novel Wandering Souls.
[1:37]Thank you for having me.
[1:38]It's my pleasure.
[1:39]Your book is so good.
[1:41]It's so good and so captivating from the very first scene.
[1:46]It's so like cinematic, like I felt like I could see every scene that you wrote about and
[1:50]yet so horrific by page 20, I was already gasping out loud.
[1:55]You know, it's like immediately immersed the reader in the story, the characters.
[2:02]You feel like you're there.
[2:03]I don't know.
[2:04]It was so amazing.
[2:05]Thank you.
[2:06]Thank you.
[2:07]Why don't you tell listeners what the book is about?
[2:10]Sure, yes.
[2:11]So the book is partly based on my family history because my mom wasn't getting these book
[2:15]people.
[2:16]She was in LA also at the time.
[2:17]She left LA also spent about a year out of refugee camp in Thailand and then moved to France.
[2:22]And on the journey, she lost her parents and five of her siblings in sort of unknown circumstances.
[2:28]And so in the book, you've got, I haven't had in men three siblings who we get them and
[2:32]then spent a few months out of refugee camp in Hong Kong before settling in the UK during
[2:37]the Margaret Thatcher era in the late 70s or the 80s.
[2:41]And they've lost my mom.
[2:42]They've lost their parents and their four-year-olds younger siblings to the sea.
[2:47]And so they're already finding themselves in this new land, having to deal with grief
[2:51]and building new life from scratch.
[2:53]And I've also intertwined chapters that there are the perspective of Dao, who's their
[2:57]diseased little brother, and also some nonfiction elements.
[3:00]So there's a bit of archival research and newspaper articles from real life events that
[3:06]happened in the book as well.
[3:09]So those were actual articles.
[3:10]You didn't make them up.
[3:11]Well, there are articles based on truth, but I rewrote them and kind of made them my
[3:16]own.
[3:17]Okay.
[3:18]So, well, the way you did that too.
[3:20]Where you have a scene and then you show us, like, for instance, you know, when the group
[3:25]of Vietnamese people ended up in Thailand and those horrific conditions and women running
[3:32]from the burning bush on fire and what they did with the women and oh my gosh, it's so
[3:38]awful.
[3:39]I mean, it's like looking at the newspaper, it's like so awful, it's going not to make
[3:44]this political.
[3:45]But similar to like the atrocities happening right now in Ukraine with the Russia, it's
[3:49]like all this stuff is going on and it's just reported on, like, okay, to do.
[3:54]And then you have a story like yours where you get us into the people's minds and we
[3:59]feel like we are on the boat or in the refugee camp or even dealing with not being able
[4:05]to speak the language, like the way I don't know, the way you did it was so, it was just
[4:10]so well done.
[4:11]I really felt like I was living this experience.
[4:15]Oh, thank you.
[4:16]Yeah, it can be hard.
[4:17]I think we read so many news articles about the refugee crisis that are, or always
[4:23]happening in Ukraine at the moment and in different countries.
[4:26]And I think it can be easy to feel a bit numb by them.
[4:29]And I think in the book, I really want it to make our lives and our voices come alive
[4:35]and I really want people to empathize with the characters and really humanize refugees
[4:40]as well.
[4:41]So how much do you know of what happened to your mom?
[4:43]I don't know a lot.
[4:44]You know, it's something we don't already talk about too much and I think that's one
[4:48]of the reasons why I wanted the book to have this fragment in narration to sort of reflect
[4:52]the way that I learned about my family history, which is something that I learned throughout
[4:56]the years, bit by bit.
[4:57]My mom would tell me, you know, when something that happened at the camp or something
[5:02]that happened, you know, in the book, but it's not, I don't really know how my grandparents
[5:06]and my uncles and aunts passed away.
[5:08]I don't know if it was like drowning.
[5:10]I don't know if it was by pirates or something.
[5:12]So there's a lot of gaps left.
[5:15]I just know of the sort of timeline.
[5:17]I know that she was in Thailand and I know that she then came to France.
[5:21]Yes, so that's one of the reasons why I made the book also fictional and why I said it
[5:25]in the UK, which was a way for me to fill in those gaps with the power of a fiction
[5:31]as well.
[5:32]Tell me about your training and how you became an author, like tell me all of your background
[5:38]and how this novel came to be.
[5:41]Sure.
[5:42]So I didn't crop speaking English.
[5:44]I'm sorry learning English when I was nine.
[5:46]So I didn't do creative writing in English on that with the child.
[5:50]I liked doing it in French as well.
[5:52]It was one of my favorite subjects at school, but it's not something that I ever would
[5:56]feel like do.
[5:58]We're in France.
[5:59]Did you grow up?
[6:00]Paris.
[6:01]Amazing.
[6:02]Thank you going.
[6:03]And then I think I was, I loved writing and I moved to the UK when I was 18 to do
[6:07]philosophy.
[6:08]So I started doing, you know, just writing essays and then I thought maybe I would
[6:11]go into journalism and so on.
[6:13]But then I joined the publishing industry when I was 21, I believe.
[6:17]I worked at Penguin Random House for a few years as a native oral assistant.
[6:22]And I think from that point on I started reading even more fiction and I think I became
[6:27]a bit less intimidated by the idea of writing a novel because I was in that world already
[6:31]and I was just dating and confidence as well, I think.
[6:35]And then the pandemic came and I suddenly had more free time and I think I was also
[6:40]reckoning a bit with my agent identity and I was becoming more curious about my agent heritage
[6:44]and doing more research on my own.
[6:48]And I was at this, right because it was happening as well.
[6:50]So I was also thinking about my place in the UK and the place of migrants in the UK.
[6:56]So all those elements sort of came together.
[6:58]I think at the right time, I just began writing the book with really no expectations.
[7:03]I was just dating for myself and then I entered the London Writers Awards, which is
[7:08]in the world where if you get a new or so in this program almost like an MA, we need
[7:12]to have writing groups and seminars and so on.
[7:14]So I got in for the 2021 cohort, which really helped me, I think gave me a bit more
[7:19]of a structure and taking my writing more seriously.
[7:22]So from January 21 is when I really started writing the book more intensely, I would say.
[7:27]Wow.
[7:28]And tell me about the story of how it sold and all of that.
[7:30]I signed with my agent Matt in the summer of 2021.
[7:33]So I wrote the book for about six months, quite intensely.
[7:37]And then during the summer, we worked a bit on editing one of the big editorial work
[7:41]was making the narrative parts a bit more fleshed out and adding a bit more details and
[7:47]things like dialogues and so on.
[7:48]So we did a bit of that.
[7:50]And then we submitted in September 2021 to the UK first and then for this date, which
[7:58]is part of HarperCollins preempted the book in 24 hours, which was really amazing because
[8:03]you're recording my dream publisher and then from then on, we got a preempt as well in
[8:09]the US from Henry Holt from Robert Rosley, who's now left.
[8:12]So that was also maybe all happened really fast, which I think I'm grateful for because
[8:17]I think it would have been quite stressful to have that long period of having to wait
[8:21]to your back from editors.
[8:24]And then from then on, we got some international territory as well.
[8:27]So our up to 11 international territory as well, which is really be honest, I could have
[8:31]imagined.
[8:32]And then I worked on the edits more for about six months with both the US and UK editor.
[8:38]And here we are.
[8:39]The book that published last week in the UK and it's getting published 21st March in
[8:43]the US.
[8:44]So.
[8:45]Oh, my gosh, so exciting and you wrote it in, you wrote it in English because I mean,
[8:50]I've been living here for almost eight years now.
[8:54]So English has really become my first language in the way and I think I, it's language
[8:59]that I did my studies, my bachelor and master is in starting my, I see French as the
[9:04]language of my childhood now, but English is the language.
[9:07]I think that I have a bit more of an elaborate relationship.
[9:10]I think with English language and it's just, yeah, I feel more at ease writing in English
[9:14]now.
[9:15]In the book, there's a sort of a faded, well, seem to be damaged photo of the family when
[9:21]they were intact.
[9:22]Do you have a photo like that of your family?
[9:24]Does your mom have photo?
[9:25]Yeah, we have a few photos for my family, so I'm able to see what my, what they looked
[9:30]like on my onto knuckles looked like and what my grandparents looked like.
[9:33]And like in the book, it's why we have a little altar and we, every once a year, we
[9:37]bring that in since for them, which is a very lovely tradition.
[9:41]Was it hard for you?
[9:42]I mean, like revisiting, this is, these are not like such happy moments necessarily that
[9:49]you're writing about, you know, it's tough to put yourself in, in these situations.
[9:54]And you are doing the act of writing it and like putting yourself in the scene so that
[9:58]you could write about it and make the rest of it.
[10:00]us feel so immersed. Like, how was that process for you? Like, did you find yourself getting
[10:05]really upset? You seem like a very even killed person, even though I barely know you. But I don't
[10:08]know. Seems like just very like, you know, even, I don't know. Did you, did it destabilize you at
[10:14]all? Did it make you really emotional? Like, tell me about that. Yeah, I think part one was
[10:18]definitely mentally challenging. It's the part where, again, I was reading and learning about
[10:24]sexual assault and the horrible things that would happen to refugees on the journey. So I
[10:30]think that that took a bit of a toll on me. And it was also, I was writing at night because at the
[10:35]time I was, I've now had publishing, but I was still working and publishing back then. So I had to
[10:39]write between like 10 p.m. to a.m. and so it felt quite lonely in the really global pandemic as well.
[10:46]So I think, you know, it's funny, I don't really remember now. I feel like I sort of blocked out of my
[10:50]memory, but I do remember feeling quite upset. But I think at the time, I was also very aware
[10:56]that I had to take care of myself. And so I would always try and make sure to, you know, talk to
[11:03]friends when I could go to the gym when the lockdown was over and try and have like seven hours of
[11:10]sleep, just sort of boring things as well. I think just to keep my mental health, you know, at a good
[11:15]level. But it was hard. And I didn't, I didn't want to ask my mom too many questions as well
[11:22]because I didn't want to stress her. And I wanted the book to come from me. I wanted the characters
[11:27]to come from me and not be based on my family. So it was a lonely process for sure. But I think
[11:34]it was also a very rewarding one and a quite a cathartic experience. And I came out of it, I think
[11:40]feeling much more at ease with myself and with my history and my family story. Wow. Has your mom
[11:47]read the book? She did. Yeah. I gave her an early coffee in October. I think and she was very happy.
[11:53]I think it was probably hard for her. But I think she quite liked that even though especially the
[11:58]first half is quite hard, but there is it and I'm quite a hopeful note. And there's some some
[12:03]happiness and some lightness as well. So yeah. And I think she, she said she felt like I was there
[12:09]in the camp, which made me, I was relieved about because I was still worried all the time about.
[12:14]If I had gone in the details right and everything, I felt this, this burden of responsibility to
[12:20]really be as accurate as possible. So I felt relieved when she said that, it felt accurate to her.
[12:26]Wow. Oh my gosh. What about your dad's story? What's his family story? Like, he's his friend.
[12:32]He's that. He grew up in the suburbs of France with that. He's got four brothers. So they're five,
[12:38]five boys. Yeah. And we still live quite near to my grandma in Paris now, which is nice.
[12:44]But yeah, I think that they met through to work. Wow. That's awesome. I have like this growing group of
[12:50]authors who have been in my podcast who live in Paris. I don't know why I keep like adding people to
[12:55]the group when I interview a new person from Paris. So if you want, I can introduce you to
[13:01]the rest of that. Oh, yeah. I feel like we're up to five. They go for coffee now.
[13:07]Oh, wow. Yeah. I love that. I don't know. I don't even know how it started.
[13:12]It's like, you have to be this other person. I just didn't really.
[13:15]Anyway, maybe your publicist could share your email. I'll put you on a sheet with all of them
[13:19]for sure. I feel like Paris must be so, I mean, this is like stereotypical, but just like the idea
[13:26]of the glamour and literary history of Paris and the cafes and all of that must make you just
[13:32]feel so like literary inspired, you know, versus like the loud noise and dirt and craziness of
[13:39]new theory right now. Do you still feel like that, you know, do you feel that rich history of
[13:45]the literary? I mean, I'm still in London. So I'm mostly based on it. I go back to Paris a few
[13:50]times a year or just like I mean. None at all. But I do quite like, I feel like Paris is quiet.
[13:57]You know, and you can kind of go and work at a cafe and and no one really pays attention to
[14:01]you. So I do enjoy going back to Paris and work there when I can as well. And I think maybe
[14:07]this summer I'm going to start working on book two this summer and I'm planning on going to
[14:12]frogs. I think to do that and just it would be nice for me to have a bit of a change of scenery
[14:17]and be back in my home country kind of getting renewed inspiration. What is your next book going to be
[14:23]about? I don't know. It's still in the very early process. I think it will be more contemporary
[14:28]than this one and probably less personal. I think this one was so personal to write. And as we said
[14:33]quite mentally, yeah, dreams. I think for this new one, I just wanted to be more more freeing and
[14:39]maybe a bit of a love story as well. And I think you'll probably take place in the present day,
[14:44]but still in the very early stages. What made you write? Do you pronounce it down? The just
[14:51]yes. What made you write his story formatted almost like poetry? What was that about?
[14:57]It was hard to get his voice right because he's a he's a child. He's very young. And I think
[15:02]the formatting in the book, the sentences are not linear, right? They kind of go in six eggs. And
[15:06]I think for me, that was just to show on page that idea of wandering that he's not very subtle. He's
[15:12]always moving around. And the idea, I think as well, the sentences having those very short sentences
[15:17]was to reflect that review is just how I imagine a ghost would be someone who would always
[15:23]yeah, be be be in a place sort of in between them, this role in the world of the disease.
[15:31]It's just how I imagined it. And I was very inspired by writers like Max Porter as well,
[15:35]and Jenny O'Fill and writers who play it with form like that. So yeah, you have to read this book.
[15:41]We have a book coming out from Zibi books called Here After by Amy Lind and her. I would love
[15:46]you to like blur bit or look at it or whatever, but she also comes with form when she's writing. And
[15:51]like that's a very important component of her story of loss and everything. So oh, I'd love to
[15:55]love to take a look. Yeah, I feel like you would like that. Anyway, so much for me to do with you
[16:00]after this. Who else do you like to read aside from, you know, Jenny O'Fill? Yes, I love
[16:06]motion long. You know, I love to writing, I think, and him and Kathy Parkong, I think they're two
[16:11]writers that I think gave me more confidence in the story I wanted to tell and in my identity as
[16:18]an Asian person in the West. I love writers like Hand Kong. It's all I was going to start by human
[16:24]acts, just a Korean novel, which starts during a Korean student uprising in the 1980s. And like in the
[16:31]book, it starts with a death of those characters. You then have different voices reckoning
[16:36]with the aftermath of that uprising. I like that. I love girl woman and other about Bernardo
[16:42]still is another one that was very inspiring atonement by Ian McEwen. You know, I think that was just
[16:48]a very good novel. And I love how you kind of place with that idea of the power of storytelling
[16:53]to reckon with the past. Something I was really inspired by Maggie Nelson. You know, I quote
[16:58]the right parts of the epigraph that I love. I love, again, her little, her way of kind of
[17:04]miggling poetry and fiction and on fiction. So yeah, lots, lots of different inspiration. That's
[17:11]what advice would you give to aspiring others? One advice that I have for for I think maybe a
[17:17]bit more for writers of color. But I think for all writers as well is just to not feel limited in
[17:21]who you can be inspired by and what you can write about. I think you should feel free to
[17:26]to be inspired by by whoever you want. And don't feel pressured by being by what you think people
[17:33]expect you to write as well and feel free to just write what you want to write. So I think that
[17:39]that's an advice I got which I thought was really helpful for me as well. And then I would also say
[17:43]um, to really find out what works best for you. I think you know, you always have to be
[17:48]telling you that you have to write in the morning and people who tell you that they you have to
[17:52]write like a sort of number of works per day. And I think you also have to spend a bit of time
[17:56]getting to know yourself and knowing what, you know, what, what time are you the most creative,
[18:02]what works best for you and your mental health as well. I think there's not just one way to be
[18:06]a writer, you know, everyone's still unique. And when you're not writing or working and publishing
[18:13]or whatever. But what do you like to do? Like to let it in your spare time. Oh yeah, I like to
[18:19]well, read of course. I think you kind of go ahead in the hand. Don't think writing and reading.
[18:23]So that I love to go to movies. I like to go traveling as well. I'm going to be doing a bit of
[18:29]traveling. I'm going to come to New York actually in May. I'm really excited about it. Yeah. I like to
[18:34]go like, I'm quite boring really to my friend going to like, I cause a bit, you know, I live in
[18:40]London. It's great city. And then I like to try and like go hiking as well as I can. And I love food as
[18:46]well. I love just cooking and finding the restaurants and and all that. Well, when you're here in
[18:53]May, let me know if you want to come by or something. Yeah. I will. Yeah. So thank you so much.
[18:59]This has been so lovely. You're so like chic and sophisticated. And I just love it this whole,
[19:05]I don't know. You have such a cool energy too. It's very nice. Oh, thank you. You've got a beautiful
[19:11]house as well. Thank you very much. All right. Congratulations on your book. And I'll be
[19:18]ready for you. So thank you so much to be. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of
[19:25]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens
[19:30]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[19:34]and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[19:39]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to
[19:43]Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.