Mary Otis, BURST: A Novel
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30-minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
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[1:03]Mary Otis is the author of First, and I am so excited.
[1:07]This is our Zippy Books published book for the month of April.
[1:10]So congratulations to Mary.
[1:13]And on behalf of our whole Zippy Books team, we are so, so excited for you.
[1:18]And here is the episode.
[1:20]Mary Otis is the author of the short story collection, yes, yes, cherries.
[1:24]And now, of course, first.
[1:25]Her fiction essays in poetry have been published in Best New American Voices, Electric
[1:29]Literature, Tinhouse, Zizzova, McSweeney's, Bennington Review, The Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles
[1:35]Review of Books, and numerous other literary journals and anthologies.
[1:39]She has taught fiction at UCLA and was a founding professor in the UC Riverside Low Residency
[1:43]MFA and creative writing program.
[1:46]Originally from the Boston area, Mary lives in Los Angeles.
[1:49]Congratulations again, Mary.
[1:51]Welcome, Mary.
[1:52]Thank you so much for coming.
[1:53]And moms don't have time to read books to discuss first.
[1:55]Thank you for having me on the podcast.
[1:58]It's so wonderful to be here with you after having you initially acquire my book and
[2:04]seeing everything that has played out since then in with Zippy Books and the release
[2:09]of the latest two books with Alicia Fernandez, Miranda's book, My What If Here, and Andrea
[2:14]Don Leop's book, Women Are the Firstest Creatures, They're terrific books.
[2:19]And I highly recommend them to everyone.
[2:22]And I also want to congratulate you on your bookshop here in LA.
[2:25]Oh, thank you.
[2:27]Beautiful store.
[2:28]It's very thoughtfully curated.
[2:31]And I know everyone in Los Angeles will be happy to go there and check it out.
[2:35]It's just a wonderful, wonderful shop and will be a new literary hub here in town.
[2:40]Oh, well, I adore doing this, this store, having the store, working with Sherry, Huzzy
[2:46]and Diana Trump, a ton of on it and are amazing stuff there.
[2:49]So anyway, the whole everybody is so excited about birth, Mary.
[2:52]And I'm just, I feel like we've been talking about it for so long that I get so excited
[2:55]by these books.
[2:56]Finally, get to see the night of day and, you know, it's like the buildup is crazy.
[3:01]I know it almost seems like, you know, that's just where that will always keep going.
[3:05]You know, you're like just in this state of you're on the journey.
[3:09]You know, they say it's, you know, not the destination.
[3:12]It's the journey.
[3:13]And then when the destination, you know, is around the corner in like three weeks, it's
[3:16]almost impossible to conceive, but exciting, of course, very exciting.
[3:21]So why don't you tell us that there is what burst is about?
[3:24]So burst at its heart is a mother daughter's story.
[3:28]It's about Charlotte and her daughter Viva and their unconventional, complicated, very complicated
[3:36]relationship.
[3:37]Sometimes for access that could also be considered a kind of a love story.
[3:42]And within the book, I also explore generational addiction, artistic ambition.
[3:47]And the idea that forgiveness isn't always a one time event, but more often an ongoing
[3:52]process.
[3:53]So true.
[3:55]So how did you come to these characters?
[3:58]How did you arrive at this plot?
[3:59]Like where did this whole book come from?
[4:01]Tell me the whole thing.
[4:02]Well, it's funny because this was originally a short story.
[4:05]It was published in Zizavad.
[4:07]I should say the opening chapter was a short story.
[4:10]It wasn't the entire novel.
[4:11]It was a tiny short story.
[4:13]But pretty much the opening is quite similar to the original story with some changes required
[4:20]just because of novel, you know, there's threads you need to pull through that with
[4:23]a short story.
[4:24]You can leave a question and end on that, whereas you can't quite do that the same way
[4:28]with the novel.
[4:29]So it started with a short story.
[4:32]And I thought I was done with these characters, but we're not done with me.
[4:38]And it was a kind of a favorable haunting that they wouldn't let me go.
[4:42]And I like that feeling.
[4:43]When I get the feeling like something is bothering me or pulling at me or I can't get
[4:48]it out of my head.
[4:49]I'm hearing lines.
[4:50]I'm hearing them speak.
[4:52]I'm waking up in the middle of the night and writing down things on index cards.
[4:55]Then I know it's probably something I really need to pay attention to.
[4:58]So I began to gather more material on them.
[5:02]And at first, I thought it was just going to be a mother's point of view, Charlotte.
[5:05]And, you know, started hearing this other little voice coming into.
[5:10]So yeah, that was, that was the genesis of it and it's exciting when something that's
[5:15]so short expands to a much, much bigger project and it's my first novel.
[5:21]So.
[5:22]Wow.
[5:23]Well, back up a little bit and tell listeners like where, how you got your start in the
[5:30]whole literary world.
[5:31]I know obviously your collection, yes, it's cherries came out, but like where did like
[5:36]take us back for a minute.
[5:37]So where did you grow up?
[5:38]How did you know you love to write?
[5:40]When did you discover this is something you could really do and all of that?
[5:44]It was a rather interesting journey to get here because I actually did not think I would
[5:50]be a writer.
[5:51]That was not something I ever planned on doing.
[5:54]And I was always a reader.
[5:56]I studied literature, but I never studied creative writing and oh, to back up a little,
[6:02]I grew up outside of Boston in a small town called Millis.
[6:06]It's Southwest of Boston and I grew up in a large family with five brothers and sisters.
[6:11]So were you secretly longing for just to be your mom and you?
[6:14]Is that where this book came from?
[6:15]Like what if it was just mom and me for a little?
[6:17]Yeah, I think it is.
[6:18]I think it's always fascinating when you're, you know, I've met so many people that
[6:22]were an only child who were like, oh, what's it like to have so many brothers and sisters?
[6:28]So I think it's always, you know, fascinating when you're on the other side of it.
[6:32]But yes, growing up in such a big family, I'm not quite sure why I wrote about this society
[6:38]of two that is just Charlotte and Viva, but there is always kind of a mystery to me
[6:44]as to, I can pull it apart sometimes, usually retroactively and figure out why I was
[6:50]pulled towards something, but not always.
[6:53]Sometimes there's just an element of mystery and I accept that.
[6:56]I like, I like that mystery as to why certain things happen the way they do in a story.
[7:02]What number were you in the, in the birth order?
[7:05]I'm five, oh, number five, but the next child up is nine years older.
[7:11]So it was sort of like the first group before we're much closer in age, then there was
[7:16]a big break.
[7:17]And then there was my brother and I, my brother is younger than I am.
[7:21]So, you know, I came to writing in just a very serendipitous way.
[7:25]I was out here in Los Angeles.
[7:27]I knew nobody, I know I had one friend, and I would call my friend, and Los Angeles was
[7:36]just really different for me coming from the East Coast, coming from Boston.
[7:41]I lived in Manhattan for five years, you know, and I, it just was beyond, you know, there
[7:47]was so much to take in.
[7:50]And I would call this friend and tell my friend about things that I saw.
[7:54]And at a certain point, he said, you know, we have a lot of taking a writing class, which,
[8:00]you know, I don't know if he was just trying to get me to stop calling him and telling
[8:02]about wonderful things.
[8:03]You know, like, you wouldn't believe when I saw it today, or what, but I said, you know,
[8:10]I've never thought of doing that, but why not?
[8:11]And, you know, maybe I'll meet some people since I only have my one friend.
[8:16]And I signed up for the class at a local college.
[8:19]I'd heard, you know, wonderful things about this teacher.
[8:22]And I really liked his name, Jim Crusoe.
[8:24]And it turned out that he is truly, you know, been one of the best teachers in not only
[8:30]in Los Angeles, but maybe the entire country.
[8:33]I mean, he's shepherded.
[8:34]It's the careers of so many writers.
[8:36]It's just a truly unique and intuitive, wonderful, wonderful teacher who can teach many
[8:43]types of students, which is, I think, a mark of excellence to, you know, can kind of come
[8:48]in at any level where a writer is at.
[8:51]But I went, and I took this class.
[8:53]I signed up for it.
[8:55]And I immediately thought he was brilliant.
[8:57]It was wonderful.
[8:59]It was a mixed-level class.
[9:01]So there were a lot of people that were already published.
[9:04]There were a lot of people talking about writing terms that, you know, I didn't know
[9:07]the language yet.
[9:09]And although it was very wonderful and I felt very old to it, I also found it overwhelming.
[9:15]And so I left the class because I just felt like it was just beyond in some way, which
[9:23]I find very strange in retrospect, you know, given how central writing is to my life
[9:29]that, you know, I would almost run from something that was so, was going to be so important
[9:34]for me, which I think, you know, emotions are funny sometimes, you know, how a thrill and excitement
[9:40]and passion can maybe run close to fear, you know, and so maybe the signals got a little
[9:45]misinterpreted, but I did go back to the class.
[9:49]And then I studied with Jim Crusoe for a really long time.
[9:53]So, you know, had my one friend never said, have you thought of taking that class?
[9:57]I'm not sure I would have.
[9:58]I mean, who is the friend?
[10:00]I think we need to get the friend on the podcast or something.
[10:02]Oh, the friend's been shook as somebody I knew long ago in L.A.
[10:08]So, all right.
[10:09]Well, I think you need to write a minute.
[10:11]I am planning to.
[10:15]That's wonderful.
[10:16]And so when did you realize that you love to write short stories?
[10:20]Well, part of it had to do with the direction from that particular teacher
[10:25]who suggested I write short stories.
[10:28]I mean, it's interesting.
[10:28]I think if he'd said start with a novel I would have.
[10:31]And being a teacher myself now, I think for me, I can often kind of pick up
[10:37]whether somebody is built to naturally write short stories
[10:41]or naturally go toward the novel.
[10:43]And it's kind of how they're pacing it, how they're looking at it.
[10:47]And there's a certain velocity to a short story.
[10:49]You know, you need to get in and get out.
[10:51]And a lot of people write both.
[10:53]I mean, I write both now.
[10:55]But a short story is a very challenging form
[10:57]because, you know, you don't have a lot of extra room to move.
[11:01]It's end-oriented.
[11:02]Often the beginning image or line or paragraph, you know, will run through
[11:06]and somehow tie in at the end.
[11:08]And I love that task of figuring out what that is.
[11:11]So that's how I came to start writing the short stories.
[11:14]But there were people writing novels in that class.
[11:18]So you took the class and you started writing short stories.
[11:21]And were you working a day job at the same time?
[11:24]I was. There was like a brief period where I was working at a financial company
[11:30]as like I'd gone in as a temp.
[11:32]They offered me a job.
[11:34]And as I got more serious with writing, I had this like figure in my mind
[11:40]that I wanted to save.
[11:41]And then I would take some time just to write.
[11:44]And so I did do that.
[11:46]And I quit the job.
[11:48]And I spent the next like six months writing.
[11:50]And a lot of things, you know, that thinking of like jump in the net will appear.
[11:56]You know, when I look back at it, that I'm not trying to be comfortable doing that today.
[12:01]But at the time I was and a lot of doors opened pretty quickly after that.
[12:06]And I had started to publish and not super long after that, you know,
[12:11]was offered a book deal by Tinhouse.
[12:13]And I didn't have a collection yet.
[12:15]But I had some stories published.
[12:17]They published a couple of them.
[12:18]And then they said, do you have a whole collection?
[12:21]And I said, I don't.
[12:22]But and they said, well, we'll buy the book and write.
[12:25]And you write three more.
[12:26]So, you know, all because of this one thing, you know, that the friend said.
[12:31]And I went and followed along on that path.
[12:36]Wow.
[12:37]That much time basically went from your first class, the first day of class.
[12:41]Generally, not like, you know, you don't do the math.
[12:43]But until yes, as cherries came out.
[12:47]I think it was around six or seven, because also there was a period where I wasn't
[12:53]sure, you know, I would be still taking the class.
[12:56]But thinking like, you know, this is something I really enjoy doing.
[12:59]But I'm not completely sure yet.
[13:02]And having some of the stories published started really making me think,
[13:06]okay, this is something you can do.
[13:08]And I'd gone to take a workshop with Michael Cunningham.
[13:13]And finally his work center in Provincetown.
[13:16]And he also was very extremely encouraging, you know, saying yes, this is what,
[13:22]you know, you should be doing.
[13:24]And it was wonderful to study with him.
[13:26]It was, you know, like a one week workshop.
[13:28]But he had a big influence on me.
[13:30]Oh, my gosh.
[13:32]That's what that's just the whole thing is so wild.
[13:34]Okay.
[13:35]So then what was it like when the book came out?
[13:39]Oh.
[13:41]Gosh, you know, it was wonderful.
[13:44]You know, I'm just, I'm sort of flashing on different readings for whatever,
[13:49]for whatever reason of, you know, I went to Portland to read a tin house
[13:54]at their conference that they did.
[13:56]You know, just thinking of the kind of a cascade of events in my mind and seeing people from
[14:02]all parts of your life.
[14:03]I think that's something that's really nice when you have a book come out.
[14:06]And, you know, you see somebody from grade school.
[14:09]You see a student you taught two months ago.
[14:11]And, oh, you know, there's Mrs. Harris, you know, my science teacher or, you know,
[14:16]it's like, this is your life.
[14:18]So I remember that that was, was very special.
[14:22]That part of it, seeing so many different people.
[14:25]And for some reason, I'm remembering reading at tin house conference.
[14:30]And they have a beautiful, it's at Reed College.
[14:32]They have a beautiful amphitheater set up there outdoors.
[14:36]And I remember going up to Reed and there was a jogger behind me in the woods
[14:44]that I could hear.
[14:45]And I was like, I'm kind of stopped.
[14:49]And I knew they were kind of right behind me.
[14:52]And I thought, like, can the audience see this person?
[14:54]Are they gone?
[14:55]I don't know why I'm thinking of this, but it's like, you know, funny things sometimes
[14:59]happen at Reed.
[15:01]So they stopped.
[15:02]They did listen.
[15:04]But it was odd to do a reading where you can kind of feel somebody right behind you.
[15:09]Yeah.
[15:10]Oh, my God.
[15:10]Yeah.
[15:11]All right.
[15:12]Well, we'll make sure to have a big backdrop or something or not the back.
[15:17]And so what did you begin to teach?
[15:19]And when do you decide to do that?
[15:21]Sorry.
[15:22]I just want to know your whole story here.
[15:23]Yeah, yeah.
[15:24]No, teaching this also kind of came in an unusual way, which was after my book
[15:30]came out.
[15:30]I was doing some, you know, just individual writing classes around town at UCLA.
[15:36]I taught it a couple writing conferences.
[15:38]I was doing a little private workshop of my own.
[15:40]And I was offered a job to help create a MFA program for writing at UC Riverside.
[15:47]So that also was not something I had been intending to do with my life.
[15:53]But I love teaching and I love working with my students.
[15:56]And I love really helping people get to the essence of what they're trying to say.
[16:02]That's a really special task to me.
[16:05]So yeah, I mean, it's almost like if I hadn't taken the advice of my friend and gone to
[16:11]that class, I wouldn't have, you know, say published my first thing.
[16:14]If I hadn't published the first thing, I wouldn't have done the book.
[16:16]If I didn't do the book, I wouldn't have had an offer to, you know, teach in this program.
[16:23]So one thing that led to the next, and again, I do kind of, I do believe sometimes when you're
[16:30]taking risks and, you know, kind of throwing yourself into something with your whole heart,
[16:35]a lot of times doors will open.
[16:38]And things that were beyond what you could have expected happened.
[16:41]You know, and back to burst for a little bit.
[16:46]Now that we have more of a background, setting the stage, some of the themes in the book
[16:51]revolve around, obviously, there's the complicated, very complicated mother-daughter relationship
[16:56]and sort of unfulfilled dreams and, you know, all of that.
[17:00]But there's also the theme of addiction.
[17:03]So where, how did you end up writing about that?
[17:06]Where did that come from?
[17:08]What was it like to write about?
[17:09]Well, I've known and loved a lot of addicts of different stripes.
[17:15]And, you know, I think that we are a rather addicted culture overall.
[17:21]You know, with some addictions being more accepted than others.
[17:25]But I think there's a lot of people with, you know, whether it's gambling or alcoholism
[17:31]or taking drugs, there's a lot of people seeking relief.
[17:35]And I also wanted to dovetail or draw the line between the idea when you were saying,
[17:42]you know, deferred dreams or whatever with Charlotte and not being able to pursue her art.
[17:47]how when somebody's pursuing an art form, you know, whether it's writing or dance or painting,
[17:53]that's probably like the best drug in the world.
[17:55]Because you are, if you're really in it, I'm sure you've experienced this.
[17:59]It's like, it is a transcendence.
[18:01]You are, you are a time and space doesn't matter anymore.
[18:04]You are in a totally different reality.
[18:07]And I have seen, you know, unfortunately, a lot of cases, sometimes when people
[18:13]are not able to play out not only an artistic dream, but perhaps any kind of dream,
[18:19]how that can become very twisted and lead to, you know, really problematic,
[18:24]hurtful behavior and how also that same addiction, whether whatever the thing again is,
[18:31]again, whether it's a drug or food or overdoing anything, you know, it's kind of like the knockoff
[18:38]transcendence. It's like the faith transcendence, like trying to achieve that same thing,
[18:44]but not through that other way, that's such a beautiful way.
[18:48]So that's something I wanted to explore, also knowing and loving a lot of different artists
[18:53]and some close friends who I saw this happen to.
[18:57]Wow. So addiction is basically the way you're reframing it is really positive, right?
[19:06]It's an attempt to achieve something that only art can bring.
[19:09]So it's just like an attempt to get the close second hit of it, if you will.
[19:14]Exactly. I mean, obviously there's that that's just one angle, but I think it's an angle that
[19:18]isn't explored a lot. And I sometimes think, you know, I've met people that were addicts,
[19:25]that if they had ever been able to take their natural gifts and energy and put them in the direction
[19:33]of, you know, I'm just thinking of somebody on that one's who I think would have been the most
[19:36]amazing comedian if they could have ever had, you know, one of the funniest people I ever met
[19:42]who, you know, if they could have channeled that all in that direction. And sometimes it's a matter
[19:48]of luck and support, you know, it's hard to be an artist. And it's, you know, you need support,
[19:54]you need support from other artists and other writers. And so sometimes things have to
[20:00]but that was something else I wanted to look at as well.
[20:06]And what did you learn about it
[20:07]after you dove deep by writing the novel?
[20:10]I don't know, humans are very complex and very, you know,
[20:16]I've read a quote that I liked recently about, you know,
[20:19]people, they don't always behave the same.
[20:21]People behave situationally, not, you know,
[20:24]like this one way they will behave in all situations.
[20:28]And I think that's very true.
[20:30]And I like to try to think about that when I'm working.
[20:33]And, you know, we are vast, we contain multitudes
[20:36]and that's also something I try to think of
[20:39]when I'm writing characters,
[20:40]because there is no truly bad character
[20:42]or there is no truly good character.
[20:45]And I'm always seeking to try to get inside a character
[20:49]that really helps me to write
[20:51]and try to almost like on an acting level,
[20:54]like get inside to try to understand
[20:57]how they see the world and how they react.
[21:00]And if I can lock onto that,
[21:02]then I can, you know, use my imagination
[21:06]to fill in the rest.
[21:07]Or if I can understand one emotional thing,
[21:11]maybe I only understand it on like a smaller, you know,
[21:14]level, but I can go deeper into it
[21:18]or really increase it for the sake of the drama and the story.
[21:24]It's so interesting.
[21:26]It's also so interesting to think
[21:27]that these people aren't real that you're talking about.
[21:29]Jeremy, like that you get to create,
[21:31]I know this is such a silly point,
[21:32]but that novelists get to just create these characters.
[21:36]I mean, you're right, actors as well,
[21:37]but you get to rewrite it and figure it out.
[21:41]And of course you're so right.
[21:42]I mean, take anybody going back to their parental home
[21:46]pretty much and you'll see like a massive regression,
[21:49]like you, whoever is like who they are in the workplace.
[21:52]Like they could be completely different people, right?
[21:54]Oh yeah.
[21:55]I have a close friend who did share a lot of her growing up
[21:59]stories which were along the lines of Charlotte and Vibba.
[22:03]And that is quite different from, you know,
[22:06]my own growing up and my mother was quite different
[22:09]than Charlotte and quite traditional,
[22:11]quite conscientious, hardworking, you know,
[22:14]I don't even know what she did exactly make of Charlotte.
[22:17]But I think there's a little bit of her in there
[22:21]with kind of the salty humor
[22:23]and kind of these offhand remarks.
[22:25]I think she got in there that way a little bit,
[22:28]which is something I always, my mother's past now,
[22:31]but I loved about her.
[22:33]She could really toss off some singers, you know.
[22:38]Are you close with your siblings?
[22:41]Yes, yeah, yeah.
[22:42]I mean, when I was growing up,
[22:44]some of my siblings weren't in the house
[22:46]because they were a college,
[22:48]but yes, they were all over the country.
[22:50]And there's some, and still back on the East Coast,
[22:53]nobody on the West Coast or a few down South.
[22:56]And have they read your book?
[22:58]They've ordered it.
[22:59]So, you know, they all pre-ordered it.
[23:02]They certainly read, yes, yes, cherries.
[23:05]My brothers and sisters are all very good storytellers.
[23:09]I mean, I think within some families,
[23:12]that's kind of a currency, you know,
[23:14]and when I was young, I remember, you know,
[23:16]sitting there listening to all the older kids,
[23:19]tell stories and try to make each other laugh
[23:22]and try to make my parents laugh.
[23:23]And I mean, and people would laugh, you know?
[23:25]And so you're always taking it in
[23:28]when you're the younger one, you know,
[23:29]even if I wasn't saying anything, you know,
[23:31]they're very good storytellers.
[23:34]Have high hopes for my little escape.
[23:36]It's kind of like, you get it by us, Moses.
[23:40]Yeah, I know.
[23:42]I've told them, I'm like,
[23:43]okay, you're gonna be an author.
[23:44]Just say you down.
[23:46]I think that's probably likely.
[23:50]Are you working on anything else right now?
[23:52]I am.
[23:53]I have a lot of notes on another novel.
[23:56]I'm finishing up a short story.
[23:58]And poetry has become a new form for me
[24:01]that I'm excited about.
[24:02]I just had a couple of poems come out
[24:04]and I didn't expect that exactly.
[24:06]But it's wonderful to work in such a short condensed form,
[24:10]you know, so it's like, I'm working on novel
[24:12]and I'm working on poems.
[24:13]And there's, you know, such different forms,
[24:15]but each one can support whatever it is you wanna do
[24:19]in such a beautiful way.
[24:21]Wow.
[24:22]Yeah, it's very exciting.
[24:24]What advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[24:27]Oh, trust your instincts.
[24:30]Find a good teacher and trust your subconscious.
[24:34]Because I think your subconscious will lead you
[24:38]in directions that you could never have expected
[24:40]and will help you pull a theme through a book
[24:43]in a way you never could have seen coming.
[24:45]Your subconscious always, you know,
[24:48]if you're tapped into it and tuned into it,
[24:51]it might be surprising where it takes you sometimes,
[24:53]but that's for me one of the strongest pieces
[24:57]of advice I would give to a student.
[24:59]That's great advice.
[25:00]And I have not heard that piece of advice before.
[25:02]Oh, really?
[25:03]Yep.
[25:04]So there you go.
[25:05]Well, Mary, thank you for coming on.
[25:08]Thank you for your beautiful book.
[25:10]I am so honored to play a small role
[25:13]in getting this novel out into the world.
[25:15]It would have come out through some other publisher, I know,
[25:18]but I'm just so proud to be affiliated
[25:21]with your beautiful, beautiful writing and storytelling
[25:25]and the way your words make people feel
[25:29]and just you're just so good at it.
[25:33]You're just such a great writer.
[25:34]Anyway, and the story is so wonderful.
[25:36]So thank you for coming along with some ebooks
[25:38]of this ride and just know how deeply honored we are.
[25:42]Thank you so much.
[25:43]That means it's a great deal to me.
[25:45]I really appreciate it.
[25:47]Awesome.
[25:48]I'm very excited for our lunch together.
[25:50]This will be fun.
[25:51]It will be in New York soon.
[25:53]All right.
[25:54]Well, thanks so much.
[25:56]Thank you, Zippy.
[25:58]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have
[26:01]Time to Read Books.
[26:02]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens
[26:05]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:07]Also sign up for my newsletter at zippyowens.com
[26:10]and sign up for my virtual book club
[26:11]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[26:14]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[26:17]for the Sound Editing.
[26:18]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[26:20]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.