Ella Berman, BEFORE WE WERE INNOCENT
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
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[1:03]Ella Berman is the author of Before We Were Innocent.
[1:06]Ella grew up in both London and Los Angeles and worked at Sony Music before starting
[1:10]the clothing brand London loves LA.
[1:13]She lives in London with her husband James and their dog Rocky.
[1:17]She is the author of two novels, The Come Back and Before We Were Innocent.
[1:20]Welcome Ella.
[1:21]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss before
[1:25]we were innocent.
[1:26]Thank you so much for having me.
[1:27]I'm honestly so happy to be here.
[1:30]So I saw on your Instagram that you posted how much you love your cover, which I'm
[1:33]glad you said because this is like the most amazing awesome cover.
[1:37]So cool.
[1:38]Thank you.
[1:39]I'm so happy.
[1:40]So we slightly terrified waiting for that email from my editor with the options.
[1:46]But yeah, I sent over with my debut.
[1:48]I sent over like a 38 page PowerPoint presentation of, you know, just like loose cover
[1:53]and inspiration ideas.
[1:55]And then this time I was like, I trust them.
[1:57]They've got this.
[1:58]Thank you.
[1:59]Wow.
[2:00]Yeah.
[2:01]For people listening who aren't looking at the cover right now, it's a black and white
[2:05]photo of three girls like in Bikini's like running down the beach with some cliffs behind
[2:11]and then this beautiful pink all caps before we were innocent.
[2:14]And of course you have your read with Jen and pick The Come Back little sticker on here.
[2:18]So good.
[2:19]Yes.
[2:20]Oh, thank you.
[2:22]Okay.
[2:23]So tell listeners what your book is about and how you came up with this, especially on
[2:28]the heels of your last book.
[2:30]Okay.
[2:31]So please bear with me because this is the first time talking about this.
[2:34]Really?
[2:35]Oh my gosh.
[2:36]I'm so honored.
[2:37]Okay.
[2:38]You can try it as many times as you want.
[2:39]Okay.
[2:40]We'll give it a go.
[2:41]I'll give you a critique.
[2:42]We can, you know, we can find it together.
[2:44]This sounds perfect.
[2:46]That's ideal.
[2:47]Okay.
[2:48]So before we were innocent, it tells the story of two best friends, Jenny.
[2:52]Jenny.
[2:53]Okay.
[2:54]It's okay.
[2:56]Joni and best.
[2:57]There we go.
[2:58]It was light.
[2:59]Thank you.
[3:00]We got that.
[3:01]And their lives are torn apart when their other best friend eventually dies tragically
[3:06]the summer after they graduate high school on their dream vacation in Greece.
[3:11]And so not only have they lost their friend, but the police think they're involved.
[3:15]And then the world's media turns their attention on them and the girls lives and choices
[3:21]and behavior, it's like view through the prism of the worst moment of their lives.
[3:27]And they're just basically left there and their lives are ripped apart like vultures.
[3:32]That was a good part.
[3:33]I'm so sorry.
[3:34]No, no, no.
[3:35]I liked that part when you said ripped apart like vultures.
[3:37]That was a good line.
[3:38]Keep that in.
[3:39]Thank you so much.
[3:40]I'm so sorry.
[3:41]Is there any way I can start again?
[3:42]This is more cool.
[3:43]Don't start again.
[3:44]This is amazing.
[3:45]I'm so sorry.
[3:46]No, you know why?
[3:47]This is great because it's really hard to talk about a book.
[3:50]And it's particularly hard to talk about a novel that you've worked so hard on.
[3:55]And that has twists and turns and all these things and a lot of layers and intricacies
[4:00]and dual timelines and dual timelines, never know which one to start with.
[4:05]Right.
[4:06]So it's complicated because it's all, I mean, fiction is like this insane like output
[4:13]of our brains, right?
[4:14]All these things twist and turns into summarize it into a couple of sentences near impossible.
[4:19]So I love that you're being open about how hard it is because I was literally telling
[4:24]the authors and to be books.
[4:25]I was like, here's here's what I have to say about pitching.
[4:27]Every time I ask an author, like, what's your book about they go like this?
[4:31]Okay.
[4:32]Yeah.
[4:33]Because it's so hard.
[4:35]But I do this very hard.
[4:37]It's also hard.
[4:38]If you if you write quite instinctively, I think it's really tough as well because you're
[4:42]not thinking of it in terms of plot points.
[4:44]It's more like a character's journey, how it unfolds.
[4:48]I didn't even tell me what it's about.
[4:49]I didn't even care.
[4:50]And I read part of it.
[4:51]Why don't we talk about where it came from?
[4:53]So you had your last book and then what happened?
[4:56]You decided to write a new book.
[4:57]And so I had, yeah, so the comeback came out in August 2020 and I ignored everyone's advice
[5:05]which was to write my second book or at least start it before this one came out.
[5:11]And it meant that I essentially started writing it in March 2020, which obviously was
[5:17]a very complicated time for many reasons, not at least because I was locked in my house
[5:23]like everyone else.
[5:24]So I started writing a book and I think the one I started writing was a kind of reaction
[5:30]to everything that was going on and it was a real roller coaster of a plot and it had
[5:36]you know, like the pharmaceutical industry, the I don't film world.
[5:40]And it was very like plot heavy and I kind of was like, skimming the service of the character.
[5:46]And it was like, do you know what?
[5:47]This is just what I need to write right now.
[5:49]And then cut to eight months later I have two books that I've thrown out, two versions
[5:53]of this book, like full 100,000 words.
[5:56]So I was starting from scratch and it was maybe the third lockdown in London and it was
[6:00]winter and it was just, I was not in a good place.
[6:05]And my mum had given me my teenage journals.
[6:08]So I was reading them and I was just like really struck by how, I guess how intense
[6:14]everything was and how critical everything felt at the time, particularly my friendships.
[6:20]And I just started kind of like no pressure, just writing a few kind of scenes from the
[6:27]point of view of this character that came to me best.
[6:30]And when the book opens, she is living this very isolated small life in a cabin in the
[6:36]salt and sea.
[6:38]And she basically as the book unfolds, you realize that she's built her life this
[6:43]way because she doesn't want everything to be taken away from her again, which is what
[6:48]happened in the 2008 part of the story.
[6:52]So yeah, I just really wanted to write a book about friendship all the ways that we test
[6:56]each other, especially at that age when you're a teenager and all the ways we show our
[7:01]love.
[7:02]And yeah, it just sort of happened quite instinctively, which I know isn't that interesting
[7:06]to hear about.
[7:08]With hindsight, it makes sense that it kind of incorporates so many subjects that I'm
[7:13]like fascinated by and have kind of been researching my entire life without realising.
[7:18]So I think I can like retroactively retrospectively.
[7:22]Yeah.
[7:23]Yeah, talk about all the influences, but at the time it just felt like very organic and
[7:29]just such a relief after this other book where I'd honestly, it was, it was vaguely torturous
[7:35]trying to like put it all down on the page.
[7:38]Oh my gosh.
[7:39]Well, one of the things that the book raises immediately is how much of an allegiance do
[7:45]you have to old friends?
[7:47]And what are you willing to do for those friends?
[7:50]Even if you know it's probably not the right thing to do, but you do it anyway.
[7:54]I mean, I have a teenage daughter.
[7:56]She was literally just telling me about a very, not this obviously, but yeah, a similar
[8:01]thing.
[8:03]Because they ask and you care, I don't know, so even just something as simple as covering
[8:07]up for a location or what she's doing there.
[8:10]Do you see them or one of the friends is in another relationship, right?
[8:13]So yeah, and someone goes missing right at the start.
[8:16]So you have to cover up and I don't know.
[8:19]It's like what is the limitation on what you will do for people that you loved at one
[8:23]point and do you always have to do that, right?
[8:27]Yeah, definitely.
[8:29]And also, yeah, I definitely think that and I think it's really interesting what we
[8:34]look for in friends and like the gaps they fill in us and like often what you admire
[8:38]and them or what you hate most about them is stuff that you are either lacking in yourself
[8:42]or and I think that particularly for the best and journey, there's a pull there that despite
[8:49]the fact they haven't spoken in 10 years when, um, Joni turns up and asks for this
[8:54]favour in 2018, best is still drawn to her and there's a part where Joni tells her like
[9:03]you knew what you were getting into, like you knew I wouldn't let you hide anymore
[9:07]and I think best doesn't realize this at the time or you know it's not on a conscious level
[9:13]but she knows that she can't, yeah, hide from herself around Joni because Joni will
[9:19]pull that out of her and that's what she's always done for better or for worse.
[9:23]I think it's particularly at this age, right, that I think, you know, 15 to 25, let's say,
[9:30]where you really are searching for what is missing, you know, I feel like at this age like I'm
[9:34]much older than the I'm like 46, like I'm not looking for friends to fill voids anymore.
[9:39]Now it's like let's go and talk and you know it's very different but you know all of that
[9:45]and before you end up in your committed relationship for life, if that's what you end up doing,
[9:49]right, you look to the friends for all of that, all of those needs and I'll
[9:54]just to fill in all of those holes. So anyway, yeah. No, yeah. I agree.
[10:00]And it was so interesting exploring it.
[10:04]And yeah, the nuances of this friendship.
[10:06]And just yeah, all the ways they're just constantly
[10:10]testing each other, like, will you love me if I do this?
[10:12]And what about this?
[10:13]And I guess when you're a teenager,
[10:15]you're doing that with everyone on you, your parents.
[10:17]You're just pushing everything to the limit.
[10:19]So this vacation that the girls go on in Greece,
[10:23]it's sort of like a pressure cooker for all of that behavior
[10:26]and all their insecurities.
[10:28]And I'm also fierce for the future,
[10:30]because at that point, when you've been so close to people
[10:34]and you're graduating, you know that a change is coming
[10:36]and you won't, your friendship won't be the same again.
[10:39]It's just, yeah, it's just all the insecurities.
[10:41]Yeah, come to a head, really.
[10:45]So take me back a little bit to what you said
[10:48]was the agony of writing your first book
[10:51]and how you got into writing books to begin with.
[10:53]Like, tell me, just go back quickly and describe
[10:56]like how you grew up and when you wanted to start writing
[10:58]and then how you got to that first book.
[11:01]Okay, so I think like most other writers,
[11:04]I was a real book, I was always reading like in the car.
[11:08]My parents, you know, would take me shopping.
[11:09]I'd sit under a rack of clothes reading a book.
[11:11]They constantly were losing me because I was just fighting out.
[11:14]And I told my best friend when I was four
[11:17]that I was gonna be a writer.
[11:18]It's like one of the first things I told her.
[11:20]And then I guess just sort of life got in the way
[11:25]and I became more interested in,
[11:28]I was still always reading, but I wasn't writing
[11:30]like friendships in school.
[11:31]And, you know, who I was gonna be and boys.
[11:34]And I just, I got very distracted,
[11:36]but I also think that I think maybe I instinctively knew
[11:40]that I wasn't quite ready to write what I wanted to write.
[11:45]If that makes sense.
[11:46]Yep.
[11:47]So I think because I was so sure,
[11:50]I was still always told people I'm going to write a book
[11:53]and I'm gonna be an author.
[11:54]And I think it's so strange, but I think because I was so
[11:57]convinced of that, it was quite reassuring.
[11:59]I didn't actually, it's like the reverse
[12:01]of how a lot of people feel I think.
[12:03]I didn't feel pressure, just because I knew
[12:05]I would eventually do that.
[12:06]And I just was so certain, but it wasn't until my late 20s
[12:11]when I actually sat down and started doing it.
[12:15]So what was your day job at the time?
[12:17]Like what did you do before then?
[12:18]So I went to university, study psychology, left,
[12:22]worked in marketing and the music industries.
[12:24]I worked with Sony Music for about six,
[12:27]five or six years straight out of university.
[12:30]Then at the same time, I set up a clothing company,
[12:33]a vintage like selling clothes from Los Angeles
[12:36]that we bought back to the UK.
[12:37]My sister and I set it up and we sold them online
[12:41]and did pop up stores and events and like collaborations.
[12:44]So I was doing that.
[12:45]And then once I decided I wanted to write
[12:47]and that was what I was doing.
[12:48]I did talk some part-time work,
[12:50]doing like styling work at ASOS and at Amazon for a bit.
[12:55]And it was a like Fest in the book.
[12:58]I was a moderator on a dating app.
[13:01]Well, yeah, so I just did like bits and bogs
[13:05]to support myself while I was writing.
[13:07]But yeah, I can't explain it.
[13:09]I didn't ever feel pressure just because
[13:14]I just knew I was gonna do it.
[13:15]So I'm so weird and I would be doing it
[13:17]even if people weren't reading it.
[13:19]And now I can't believe I went so long without writing,
[13:21]just because it's honestly the calmest I am.
[13:24]Like it feels like therapy.
[13:26]It's just the flow state that I'm in.
[13:29]And obviously there's a lot around it that's very stressful
[13:32]and I'm trying to break a story or yeah, it is,
[13:36]you know, inherently hard,
[13:37]but it's the happiest I am since I'm writing.
[13:40]So I'm just, yeah, very pleased I found it.
[13:43]But you know, it's funny because talking about writing
[13:46]or giving advice on it, it's because I've done this twice
[13:50]once vaguely successfully.
[13:52]You don't even know about this so often.
[13:54]So I feel funny talking about like process or the crop.
[13:57]So I'm like, I'm still learning.
[13:59]I'm figuring it out.
[14:00]But it's just, yeah, I'm very much enjoying it.
[14:02]That's amazing.
[14:03]I mean, that's really what everybody says.
[14:05]You have to enjoy the process.
[14:06]Yes, whole publishing thing is so unpredictable.
[14:09]Yeah, definitely.
[14:10]If you don't love writing, making everything a lot harder.
[14:13]Yeah, very, I don't want to know.
[14:15]So then what was it like when you had your first book
[14:18]come out in the pandemic and all of that?
[14:21]What was that whole experience like?
[14:23]Yeah, well, I think because I didn't have anything
[14:26]to compare it to, it just felt like that's just how it goes.
[14:30]I think it was a little puffer
[14:31]because my book deal is in the US and I live in London.
[14:35]So I couldn't see it in any stores.
[14:38]I didn't see it in a bookstore for 15 months
[14:42]because the travel corridor and I got
[14:44]just didn't open up yet until November, I think,
[14:47]all over the next year.
[14:48]So it felt slimy like I was sort of living through my phone,
[14:52]which is I guess what a lot of us do now anyway.
[14:56]But I knew stuff was happening,
[14:58]but I just couldn't be there for it.
[15:00]And it was August, so things were opening up a little more,
[15:04]depending on where I had like a fun little outdoor party
[15:08]with my friends, but I didn't, you know,
[15:10]there were no books to sell or anything.
[15:12]So it was, yeah, it was strange.
[15:16]But I think I had some great profile, you know,
[15:20]the read the Jenna thing was amazing.
[15:22]I'm just having her kind of championing the book
[15:25]for a debut coming out in the pandemic year.
[15:27]Like I just, yeah, it was a real blessing
[15:30]and I'm so grateful for that
[15:32]because I know it was hard.
[15:34]A lot of people were reading, I mean, as you know,
[15:36]but I think a lot of people were kind of reading books
[15:41]from authors that they knew and loved.
[15:43]And it wasn't so much a time of discovery perhaps
[15:46]because, you know, there weren't the book shops
[15:49]to sort of walk into.
[15:50]So yeah, I feel really grateful how it went
[15:54]all things considered, but it did fail.
[15:56]It wasn't what I dreamed of,
[15:58]but you know, it couldn't be in a lot work.
[16:01]And this time I'm just so excited to be in Los Angeles
[16:06]and New York and just be able to walk in
[16:08]and see my book and talk to people.
[16:10]I didn't sign a book for 15 months.
[16:13]I'd signed like two of my friends books and that was it.
[16:15]So yeah, it feels like a different budget of myself,
[16:19]like a little avatar had that experience.
[16:22]And yeah, I'm excited to experience it
[16:25]in real life as well.
[16:26]Wow.
[16:27]Well, you deserve it.
[16:28]It'll be great.
[16:29]Thank you, thank you.
[16:31]So do you live in London now?
[16:32]Yeah, I live in London, yeah.
[16:33]Yeah, you think.
[16:34]But you get to tour all the way.
[16:35]Yeah, I've lived in London.
[16:38]I basically lived in LA
[16:39]when I was very young with my family
[16:40]and then again for a year when I was older.
[16:43]But I lived in London other than that.
[16:46]And I find, I think I've lived it for so long.
[16:50]I don't feel like that inspired by it.
[16:54]So the fact that I often write about Los Angeles
[16:58]is because I do feel inspired
[17:02]when I'm more inspired when I'm there.
[17:03]So I often go there for writing tricks.
[17:06]And then the fact that I got a book deal
[17:07]in New York, it means that, yeah, I have that connection.
[17:10]I probably could write a story set in London.
[17:13]And I don't know if it's the site outsiders perspective.
[17:16]And I always write generally so far my two books.
[17:19]I've written about outsiders for whatever reason
[17:23]that they don't feel like they truly belong
[17:25]in their environment.
[17:27]So I think maybe that helps.
[17:30]Yeah, setting it somewhere where I don't actually live
[17:32]and have them for a while.
[17:33]Yeah, it's OK.
[17:34]You don't ever have to write a book based on London
[17:36]if you don't.
[17:37]Yeah, it's OK.
[17:39]Thanks, Anthony.
[17:41]I'll try Monday.
[17:42]I will say it.
[17:43]No, no, it's OK.
[17:44]I've given you an idea here, excuse me.
[17:48]That's funny.
[17:48]That's really funny.
[17:49]Yeah, I feel like I can't do any creative writing
[17:52]in this office.
[17:53]Like this is my work.
[17:55]Like I can never be creative.
[17:57]I don't know.
[17:58]So I can't put your sense.
[18:00]I can't put your sense.
[18:00]Yeah, I've got the whole country.
[18:03]Yeah, even if I go in another room, I'm like,
[18:05]and I face a different direction or something,
[18:07]and I'm like, OK.
[18:08]But in here, I'm just like, yeah, this is totally different.
[18:11]So I get it.
[18:12]OK, so what's next?
[18:14]Do you have another book?
[18:15]There I ask.
[18:15]Yes.
[18:16]So at the moment, I'm adapting the comeback for film.
[18:20]So I'm writing the screenplay.
[18:22]That's exciting.
[18:22]Yeah, which is great.
[18:24]I'm love learning like a whole new craft.
[18:27]It's incredible.
[18:28]Anyone that says it's easy is absolutely bonkers.
[18:32]One of the hardest things I've ever done,
[18:34]but I'm loving every second of it.
[18:36]And then, yeah, I'm working my third book as well, which
[18:39]is a bit different.
[18:40]It's set in the 60s and 70s in Hollywood.
[18:44]And it's about two female writers.
[18:46]And that sort of friendship and rivalry
[18:49]in a set of 10 years.
[18:50]So yeah, it's a little more sprawling.
[18:53]It's less of a dual-time-line thing.
[18:56]I said, yeah, I'm really enjoying it.
[18:58]It's so fun.
[18:59]And if they're doing research, it was amazing.
[19:01]And yeah, it's very cool.
[19:02]And it's just different.
[19:04]Do you know the author, Jane Green,
[19:05]have your pads crossed at all?
[19:07]No, I know who she is.
[19:10]But I've never, yeah, I've never met her.
[19:12]I want to connect you.
[19:13]I feel like she'll adopt you.
[19:15]You're like, oh, I'd love to be good.
[19:17]I feel like I just feel like you guys need to meet
[19:20]and do an event.
[19:21]No, I don't know.
[19:22]That would be wonderful.
[19:23]I'll connect you.
[19:24]I'll get your email or something from your publicist.
[19:27]And I'll connect you.
[19:28]Thank you so much.
[19:29]I really appreciate that.
[19:30]Do you feel that I think because being in London
[19:33]and with the US book, Dale,
[19:35]I feel a bit like I've sort of missed
[19:37]that connecting with other authors.
[19:39]Because like on Instagram, I speak to a few.
[19:42]And like everyone's been very supportive.
[19:43]But yeah, I'd love to go for a coffee with people.
[19:46]But I need to get better at reaching out here, I think.
[19:52]Well, she's based here now.
[19:53]But anyway, that should sound like I'm going to figure it out.
[19:56]Yeah, I love to hear that.
[19:58]Amazing.
[19:59]So when you're not right,
[20:00]Are you still into the whole fashion stuff
[20:03]that you had originally been into?
[20:05]Like, importantly, I mean, what do you like to do
[20:07]when you're not doing all this work stuff?
[20:10]And that is a very good question.
[20:14]Yeah, I still have the online company with my sister.
[20:17]It's more of a passion of ours now than a job,
[20:21]if that makes sense.
[20:22]Yep.
[20:23]I like traveling a lot.
[20:24]This book set in Malibu, the Greek Islands
[20:27]and the salt and sea.
[20:29]Yeah, I love traveling with my husband.
[20:31]I'm obsessed with my dog.
[20:32]He's 10 years old.
[20:33]He's 100% age-old.
[20:35]So we've got lots of walks, enhanced city youth,
[20:38]and get copies, and meet friends.
[20:41]I'm trying to pick French back up.
[20:44]So I'm, yeah, I'm looking to do that.
[20:47]And I've just started doing ballet classes.
[20:50]Can you tell that I realized I had no hobbies
[20:52]at the end of the video?
[20:53]I was suddenly like, wait, hold on, I don't have a single hobby
[20:56]that isn't writing or reading related.
[20:58]So, yeah, so French, ballet, and I think that's it for now.
[21:02]That's great.
[21:03]Yeah, that's great.
[21:04]Good to hear.
[21:06]Thank you.
[21:06]I mean, a lot of people realize they have no hobbies,
[21:08]and then they're just like, oh, well.
[21:10]Yeah.
[21:12]I know.
[21:14]I mean, just while I have time, I love my lifestyle.
[21:17]That's awesome.
[21:18]I love it too.
[21:19]Yeah.
[21:20]Thank you.
[21:20]Fun shorts, is they say?
[21:22]Oh, messy.
[21:24]How's it going?
[21:26]Yeah, not exactly.
[21:28]This is my third grade, French.
[21:30]All right, well, this is a random question.
[21:33]If there's, if there's an author in the world
[21:35]that you would love to meet or get advice from,
[21:37]or you idolize or anything, who is that?
[21:40]If you have anybody.
[21:41]A live?
[21:42]Sure.
[21:43]I would say, you know what?
[21:45]I love her to sit and bow.
[21:47]And I do think that PrEP was maybe the book
[21:51]that got me back into writing.
[21:54]Interesting.
[21:55]PrEP was great.
[21:56]Yes.
[21:57]It was just how driven by character it was, if that makes sense.
[22:02]And just the incredible observations that just winded me.
[22:06]I was like, if I could write one sentence that wins someone,
[22:10]just in its like accuracy, universal accuracy,
[22:14]I'm happy.
[22:15]And then since then, I just, yeah, I guess,
[22:19]followed her career and it is, I think it's
[22:22]because her books aren't that reliant on hooks
[22:27]or plumbed, if that makes sense.
[22:30]They're more about the characters and the relationships.
[22:34]And I think that's the side of writing that
[22:36]comes a lot easier to me.
[22:38]And the plot side of things that I try and make sure
[22:41]that it's always driven by the character.
[22:43]And I can, as opposed to the other way around.
[22:45]And I can see that in her writing.
[22:48]and then not alive, if that is, I'm obsessed with a queen.
[22:52]I think she'd hate me because she was, she was so fun
[22:57]and carefree and she'd be like, what's wrong with you?
[23:00]But I would have really admired her from afar.
[23:05]Amazing, I love it.
[23:07]Well, Ella, you survived the podcast and all that.
[23:12]And I will be rooting for you and wishing you luck
[23:15]when this book launches before we were innocent.
[23:18]And I'm just so excited to know you.
[23:21]Like, good luck.
[23:22]Thank you so much.
[23:23]I really appreciate it.
[23:24]I good luck with the bookstore opening and the book release.
[23:27]I'm so excited for everything you'll do.
[23:29]Thank you.
[23:30]OK, thank you so much.
[23:31]Bye.
[23:32]Bye.
[23:34]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[23:36]Don't have time to read books.
[23:38]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at ZB Owens,
[23:41]and at Moms, don't have time to read books.
[23:43]Also, sign up for my newsletter at ZB Owens.com
[23:45]and sign up for my virtual book club
[23:47]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[23:50]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound
[23:52]for the Sound Editing.
[23:53]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[23:55]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.