Cathleen Schine, KÜNSTLERS IN PARADISE
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Kathleen Shine is the author of Counselors in Paradise.
[1:06]And this is her second time on the podcast.
[1:09]She is the author of The Gromarians, The Three Wisements of Westport, and The Love Letter
[1:13]Among Other Novels.
[1:14]Kathleen has contributed to The New Yorker, The New York Review of Books, The New York
[1:17]Times Magazine, and The New York Times Book Review.
[1:20]She lives in Los Angeles.
[1:21]Welcome, Kathleen.
[1:22]Thanks for coming back on.
[1:23]Mom, I'm starting to have time to read books.
[1:25]It is Gus.
[1:26]Counselors in Paradise.
[1:27]Well, I'm really happy to be back and it's good to see you.
[1:31]It's good to see you too.
[1:33]Thanks so much.
[1:34]We were just talking about LA weather and all that.
[1:37]And your book, of course, opens with somebody who has never set foot in LA or the US,
[1:44]basically, except for New York, like looking and seeing what this craziness that is LA
[1:49]is all about.
[1:50]So it's like perfect to have you sitting there for this interview.
[1:55]So tell listeners a little about the counselors and how they came from Vienna and the whole
[2:02]idea for this book and all of that.
[2:05]Well, the counselors are a family, a Jewish family who live in Vienna.
[2:11]The father is a composer and pianist.
[2:14]And the grandfather has a department store and the mother is an actress.
[2:22]And they live a sort of high bourgeois life in Vienna until the 1930s.
[2:29]And then the onshless happens in 1938 and the Nazis come in to Vienna.
[2:35]And they have to get out.
[2:37]And they do.
[2:38]And they have to leave their lives behind as so many people did.
[2:43]And they end up in Los Angeles.
[2:46]And a lot of people have said, why did so many?
[2:48]They joined a community of German-speaking Jewish, mostly Jewish, not all artists, intellectuals,
[2:56]writers, composers, conductors, architects in Los Angeles.
[3:01]And people have said, well, why did they go to Los Angeles, which was at that time not
[3:06]exactly a locus of high culture?
[3:10]And one of the reasons was they could get jobs there because of Hollywood.
[3:15]And Hollywood reached out to people to Jews in Europe trying to help to get them out.
[3:23]And there was something called the European Film Fund that helped sponsored people.
[3:28]So that's how the counselors arrive in Los Angeles.
[3:32]And they arrive in Santa Monica.
[3:35]And they are just stunned by what LA is.
[3:41]Because if you, the first time you come here, it is kind of stunning.
[3:46]And particularly coming from the atmosphere that they were coming from in Vienna.
[3:53]And the book starts out with them arriving in Los Angeles and becoming part of this community.
[4:02]And later on in the book, Mamie, the daughter, the 11-year-old daughter, is we now see
[4:09]her as a 93-year-old grandmother living in a little house in Venice.
[4:15]And her grandson comes, Julian is her grandson, he's 24.
[4:20]And he comes to help her out because she is, she has hurt her wrist.
[4:26]And he is just going nowhere, he doesn't know what he's doing.
[4:30]He's just drifting in New York.
[4:32]And his parents basically ship him off to help grandma.
[4:36]And then the lockdown comes.
[4:38]So it's a grandma Mamie, this kind of wild, eccentric, artistic woman in her 90s.
[4:48]And Julian, at loose ends, 20 something, and Mamie's helper Agatha stuck together in this
[5:00]little bungalow.
[5:01]And someone said to me, horror or comedy, it's kind of, you know, I hope it's more comedy
[5:11]than horror.
[5:12]But there's a level of just horror on both their parts that, oh my god, I'm stuck in
[5:17]this little house with this person from another generation.
[5:20]And then to fill up the time and also because she sees that her grandson is just drifting
[5:28]and to try to give him some sense of where he comes from and what life can really be
[5:35]like, Mamie starts telling him stories of her life in Hollywood, in Los Angeles, really
[5:42]and in Pacific Palisade, Santa Monica, in the 40s where she knew, you know, she was part
[5:49]of this community of very, very famous people, many actors and actresses and directors,
[5:55]but also musicians and composers.
[5:59]So that's how they make their way through the pandemic.
[6:03]Amazing.
[6:05]Going back to when the family first came over, you detailed sort of their windy path
[6:12]through Europe and then on the steamship, going across in the knot waving of the Hincher
[6:17]Chef and all that.
[6:18]Is there a boat?
[6:19]Like, did you base this on a particular boat that was, like, way late in the harbor as
[6:24]Germany invaded Poland?
[6:26]Like, was there a ship like that?
[6:28]Yes, actually there was.
[6:30]And I got some of that information from, there's a wonderful book written by a woman
[6:37]who was very important in the Hollywood community named Salka Firtel who wrote a memoir
[6:45]about it.
[6:46]And she was a very close friend of Greta Garbo's and some rumored she was Garbo's lover,
[6:52]who knows.
[6:53]She and her husband had already moved to LA, but she went.
[6:59]She had come back to Europe to do some research on a film that she was hoping to write
[7:05]for Garbo.
[7:07]And she was on, she ended up on the last boat out.
[7:12]And so the descriptions of the ship and of the extra 400 people getting on just to get
[7:20]out as soon as they realize, you know, most of the Americans, they realized war had really
[7:24]started and starting out in France and by the time they got to England, the war was on.
[7:35]So yes, that's based on a real ship.
[7:37]I thought it was funny, you know, you have such a sense of humor and it's such like an
[7:42]understated way by the grandfather who by the way, I kind of love when they were saying
[7:50]they were not happy about it.
[7:52]Anyway, he was like, they were so lucky, you know, we're lucky we got out.
[7:55]And it's like, yes, we're lucky, lucky Jews, you know, lucky, lucky Jews.
[8:01]Yeah, exactly.
[8:02]Look at us.
[8:03]And I do feel like the way you wrote about his relationship in the family into the daughter
[8:08]and even their acquisition of English and how they settled in and his sort of tobacco smelling,
[8:16]like I like smelled his grandfather.
[8:18]So clearly the way you wrote him and how he's like hanging back on the beach when
[8:23]made me first easy ocean and she's like carefree and running all over and he's just like
[8:26]sitting back on the bench and I'm like, this is such a perfect view of how they saw this
[8:32]new world and how they could see their roles in it.
[8:35]And some people just could dive right in and do whatever and then others were so entrenched
[8:42]in the old way of doing things that they were happy to just sit back and be like, I
[8:46]don't think I can engage here.
[8:48]But it is so wild how many families were displaced like this and what was it like?
[8:53]I mean, it's not it's not the easiest thing traveling to a new place, especially when
[8:57]you can't go back.
[8:58]Well, that's that was one of the things I read a lot of memoirs while I was writing this.
[9:05]And for the, you know, for some people it worked out wonderfully and they just, you
[9:11]know, found a way to fit in and to find work.
[9:14]And for other people, the upheaval was just something they never got beyond.
[9:20]And I also thought, you know, with a child, with someone who's 11 or 12 years old, they
[9:25]can pick up the language easily, they're just able to integrate more quickly.
[9:34]But for the grandfather, he doesn't even want to, you know, he doesn't want to give up
[9:40]the Austria that he grew up in and that he believed in.
[9:46]And even when all these horrible things are happening, he still thinks they're an aberration
[9:52]and where he grew up and what he loved is the best.
[9:56]And I thought that that just sort of typified.
[10:00]certain kind of older person which a kind of older person that I'm rapidly becoming.
[10:08]But I'm glad you brought that up because I liked their relationship and then I liked the
[10:14]relationship between Mamie as a grandmother and her grandson and I think there's something very
[10:20]special and very interesting and profound about relationships between children and their
[10:28]grandparents where you know skipping that generation they can see each other better.
[10:34]They're not all caught up in whatever rebellion is going on at the moment or trying to separate
[10:42]or you know it's they can see each other as individuals much better than when you're
[10:47]looking at your parents you're seeing my parents. When you're looking at your grandmother you're
[10:53]seeing grandma but you're also seeing this individual human being so that was very interesting to
[10:58]write about that relationship. And as one of my friends said the reason the reason grandparents
[11:04]and grandchildren get along so well as they have a common enemy. Yes I've heard that.
[11:11]So too. I was really close with one of my grandmothers. I mean I love them both but one in particular
[11:17]who is like a big storyteller the way that Mamie is becoming and so I don't know I felt so
[11:23]lucky. Yeah. It's something you keep with you forever. It's wonderful. I'm
[11:36]unmitigated love too. No expectations. No judgment. It's just oh my grandchild you're perfect
[11:46]and I love you. I mean so many writers have written about the pandemic in different ways
[11:52]addressing it not addressing it writing it into it. This you know the pandemic is like a
[11:57]centerpiece in that that's what created this whole thing for you in the book. So how did this
[12:02]happen? Were you sitting in the pandemic and thinking how could I make this into powerful fiction
[12:07]or like how did you decide and when did you decide to use this as a narrative tool?
[12:14]Well I had started I was very interested in this community of Emma Gray's and so I had started
[12:24]thinking about them researching them reading about them and I wanted very much to write about them
[12:28]but I really didn't know how and I had started some of the Mamie as a child stuff but I didn't want
[12:37]to write you know just historical fiction because one gets sort of caught up in too much detail
[12:46]and I just wasn't sure what to do. I knew what I wanted to write about but I didn't know what
[12:52]it meant or how it fit and so yeah the lockdown came and I was just sitting in the garden and
[13:01]thinking well that's it. I can't write this book. I'll never write another book. I'll never write
[13:06]another word. Everything is terrible. Everyone in New York is dying. Every time I'd call my mother
[13:13]I would just hear sirens in the background and I was feeling terribly guilty and you know because
[13:20]L.A. was quiet. The two cities experienced I think the pandemic so differently L.A. there was no
[13:31]traffic. There were no helicopters. It was absolutely quiet. No cars on the streets. You could hear
[13:38]all the birds and the bees and it was beautiful and New York the just sirens and fear and death
[13:48]and I realized as I was sitting in the garden smelling the jasmine and feeling you know guilty
[13:58]but also thinking God it's so beautiful. I realized that this was something I had encountered
[14:04]in a lot of these memoirs. The emigres coming here loving L.A. being so happy to be near a beach
[14:13]to take a walk on a beach and being safe and at the same time feeling this tremendous guilt for
[14:21]the family and friends they left behind and for their world that was being completely destroyed
[14:28]at that at that same moment. So once that I made that connection and that bridge happened
[14:36]I kind of realized how Julian would fit in and that the that made me could be telling him these
[14:43]stories which you know would be for someone who he's a rather callow youth to begin with and you know
[14:51]and this is something that can make could make him sort of grow and and I also felt that these
[14:57]stories needed to be passed on and I could help pass them on through made me passing them on to
[15:07]to Julian. Love that. That's amazing. So you did read again. Always not last. I did. I really thought
[15:15]well this is it. I've hit a wall and you know to depressed it's too awful but I found I worried
[15:23]I thought well should this ever be over. Who's going to want to read about it. But then I thought
[15:29]look this is where I am. This is what I'm thinking about. This is what I'm obsessed with and this
[15:35]is what I have to to write about whether people you know read it or not. This is what I'm doing.
[15:41]And I think I found a way to to deal with all of that that was not just you know
[15:50]I'm you know we're all victims and everything's terrible. I think I found a more meaningful
[15:57]way to kind of and I hope a more funny a more readable way to to deal with it.
[16:04]Well also like the whole like if we actually could survive the Holocaust we can survive
[16:12]anything. Do you know like not like like we've gotten through worse than this. It's sort of you know
[16:18]like almost why you are Jewish.
[16:24]It's like yes I have a t-shirt that says this to shall pass.
[16:32]I think people would be shocked how often I thought about the Holocaust. I think I probably every
[16:38]single day in whatever. What would this be like I think about it all the time that like yeah
[16:43]I think you know with all the political you know there's there were so many political echoes here
[16:51]in the United States that that was rather frightening actually. But yeah you kind of can't help but
[16:57]but think about it and especially in it for me in a situation like that where you know everyone
[17:05]so I mean everyone in the world was at risk but at the same time they're not comparable you know
[17:13]they're not they're not the same as totally different yet there's a yet there's a bridge there's a
[17:18]no I didn't mean no I know you didn't mean pandemic in any way and you know it was also
[17:25]they're both terrible one was that man made versus well anyway you know I'll drop this but
[17:30]yeah yeah yeah yeah let's talk about the weather um we why changing gears why was it thought
[17:37]to be bad for you to have a house by the water in LA isn't that so odd yes yes well I actually I
[17:47]I think I read that in the same memoir by Salka it was considered we know there's fog there's a
[17:54]a lot of fog in in Santa Monica and it was just considered unhealthy and so the you know the very all
[18:02]of the very successful directors or producers or people or actors and actresses who did have houses
[18:08]on the beach they were you know it's like well they have air conditioning and you know thick windows
[18:14]so the terrible air the miasma from you know and whereas now we think oh it's so healthy and
[18:22]wonderful to be near the near the water and and breathe all that nice ionized air so I thought
[18:27]that was really interesting and funny but Salka fertile and her husband lived in this house that
[18:35]they also she turned it into a kind of salon for it were for this community and it's very moving
[18:43]reading about all the different people who came to her house and she had a Sunday open house and it
[18:50]was just and it was a way for people to network to find jobs for for the the emigres to find each
[18:58]other and it is kind of amazing what what you know what she accomplished as just as a woman
[19:07]giving Sunday parties she was so influential she's a very interesting person I think so
[19:15]she inspired Mamie in some ways now I want to go read her memoir it's really good it's really
[19:22]interesting what are you working on now well I had started I started thinking about a book but I just
[19:32]I can't start another book quite yet I'm still I'm still sort of waking up from this one so I'm
[19:38]I'm working on some book reviews which is perfect way to sort of you know and not be doing what
[19:46]I was doing because it's very hard to get these these German emigres out of my head and I keep I keep
[19:52]reading you know it's like oh but I have a book by Heinrich Mon that I haven't read yet
[19:57]and it's as if I'm still doing
[20:00]the research and I can't stop. So eventually I will emerge, but I'm not quite ready to move on to
[20:08]the next to the next book. You can also just keep you can do something else with that community.
[20:16]I could. Maybe. I don't know. It's true. I hate to leave them behind. But I mean, there are
[20:22]a million stories and every that's that is true. And sometimes I look at all of my books and
[20:29]I think I would like to take some of the characters from all of them and just put them together
[20:34]and see what happens throughout the the chronology, though, because yeah, the ones who were
[20:40]very young when I first wrote the book would be pretty elderly now. So on the other hand,
[20:47]their characters in a book, I could make them any age I want. That was a realization I had
[20:52]with this book. I was I was running back and forth to my neighbors to check her orange tree to see
[20:58]when the oranges were actually out because there's an orange tree in the book. And I didn't want to
[21:04]you know, have it have oranges at the wrong time. And then at a certain point, I thought,
[21:08]you know what? It's my orange tree. I made it up. It's magic. It has oranges all the time whenever
[21:18]I wanted to. It's a magic orange tree. It was a great it was a great revelation that I you know,
[21:25]to be the boss of your characters, which is not entirely true. They kind of, you know,
[21:31]they kind of get to say what they want to say and you have to listen. But the orange tree,
[21:36]I thought I could boss around a little bit. That's so funny. What advice do you have for aspiring
[21:44]authors? That's such a hard and good question. And part of me wants to say, you know, read
[21:55]really good books, really good classic books. And part of me wants to say just sit down and write
[22:03]the most important thing I think is when you're writing not to judge it as you're writing to write
[22:11]what it is you want, get it down. However bad you think it is and then go back. I actually do
[22:20]think that's I still have to tell myself that because, you know, sometimes I'll type out a sentence
[22:27]and I'll think or sentence and written. And then I'll delete it and then I'll type out the next
[22:35]sentence. I don't think that's the worst ever written. Not all deleted. Sometimes I just have to resort
[22:42]to a pencil. So, you know, or a pen. So it's not so yeah, and just keep going. So keep going. And then
[22:49]at a certain point you stop and you look back and you make it better. But don't be a perfectionist
[22:54]as you're writing. That's that is paralysis. That is for me. That's really the worst. And that's
[23:01]something you have to fight all the time, I think. Yes. That is very good advice. Any other books
[23:08]to recommend? Anything you're reading now that you love or LA based books like yours that you,
[23:14]you know, think or amazing. The pile. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. I'm reading a treasury of
[23:25]Yiddish stories, which I read when it came out a million years ago. And I just reviewed a collection
[23:32]of Maxine Hong Kingston's work, which, which is amazing. And this book is really good. 100
[23:40]Saturdays by Michael Fry. I love that book. Isn't it? It's wonderful. And so good. Yeah. Also,
[23:46]beautiful book. Yeah. And I'm reading something. I'm actually reviewing it called After Sappho, which is
[23:51]quite interesting and good and odd. So along with, you know, a novel by Heinrichmann. And another one,
[24:02]another thing by Anna Sager's, I think her name is there's a book called Transit about
[24:09]about leaving Germany that I'm is in my pile. But yeah. And then there's like a million books
[24:17]on my iPad that, or, you know, that I'm working my way through. Oh, I just, I know. I just read,
[24:27]thank you, Mr. Nixon. Again, it's wonderful. That's something I haven't read any contemporary
[24:34]fiction for years because of doing this. I don't like to read contemporary fiction.
[24:40]I don't know if you can see me, but oh, yes. It keeps going in and out. But yeah. Anyway, that's,
[24:46]but I started reading that. And sorry. And it's, it's wonderful. It's very, very funny and smart.
[24:53]And yeah, that was, that was a treat because it was sort of the first piece of fiction I read
[24:59]just to read, not because I was research or, or still stuck in Germany in 1993. So yeah,
[25:10]that was excellent. Have you read a book by Julie Metz? Yeah, I can't remember the name of it,
[25:14]but it takes place in Vienna during the Holocaust and her, I'm going to, I'll send you a
[25:19]copy if I, it's has like, I don't think I orange here. And it was on, she was on my podcast.
[25:25]I, I'll look it up and send it to you. But if you're doing, since you're doing this,
[25:29]you know, deep dive, Allah, I send it to you. It was very interesting. You worked in, in a factory
[25:35]and anyway, I loved it. But now I'm forgetting everything because I'm very tired. But anyway,
[25:40]I will, I forget the names of my own characters. I have a list here of the names of the
[25:46]characters in case I have to, is I forget as we're talking. So well, I hope you'll come do an
[25:53]event in the store and Santa Monica at some point. I mean, you have a Santa Monica. We would love that.
[25:57]I think that would be great and, and congratulations on all that, all of that stuff. Thank you so much
[26:04]lighting and thank you so follow up. All right. Thank you so much. This is wonderful. I wish I
[26:09]was sitting here on the beach right now and not freezing care. But anyway, well, you could be freezing
[26:14]here. That's a good t-shirt. You could be freezing here too. Okay. Bye. Thank you. Bye.
[26:21]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to
[26:26]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also, sign up for
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[26:37]every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[26:41]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.