Mona Simpson, COMMITMENT: A Novel
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[1:03]Mona Simpson is the author of Commitment, A Novel.
[1:06]Mona was born in Green Bay, Wisconsin, then moved to Los Angeles as a young teenager.
[1:11]Her father was a recent immigrant from Syria, and her mother was the daughter of a McFarmer,
[1:15]and the first person in her family to attend college.
[1:18]Simpson went to Berkeley where she studied poetry.
[1:20]She worked as a journalist before moving to New York to attend Columbia's MFA program.
[1:25]During graduate school, she published her first short stories and plow shares, The Iowa Review,
[1:29]and Mad Mazzell.
[1:30]She stayed in New York and worked as an editor at the Paris Review for five years, while
[1:34]finishing her first novel anywhere but here.
[1:37]After that, she wrote The Lost Father, a regular guy, off-kick road, my Hollywood, and
[1:42]casebook.
[1:43]Her work has been awarded several prizes, a wedding prize, a Guggenheim, a grant from
[1:47]the NEA, a hotter fellowship from Princeton University, a Lila Wallace Reader's Digest
[1:51]Prize, a Chicago Tribune Heartland Prize, Penn Faulkner Finalist, and most recently a literature
[1:57]award for the American Academy of Arts and Letters.
[1:59]She lives in Santa Monica with her two children, and Bartleby the Dog.
[2:03]Welcome, Mona.
[2:04]Thank you so much for coming.
[2:05]On mom's, don't have time to read books to discuss your latest novel, commitment.
[2:09]Thank you for inviting me.
[2:10]Oh, it's my pleasure.
[2:12]Would you mind telling listeners about your amazing new novel?
[2:16]Oh, how true.
[2:18]It's funny.
[2:19]It's its most common question, but it's hard to answer.
[2:23]By the end of a book tour, I feel like I can easily describe the novel.
[2:29]But I really am at this point, which is the beginning, the middle of the beginning.
[2:35]I'm not so certain.
[2:37]It started in a number of ways.
[2:39]It's actually a book about three siblings who have a mother who is a big fragile and
[2:45]a single mom who's a bit of a striver and worked to get them in the best school district.
[2:53]In one of the good public school districts in Los Angeles in the 1970s.
[2:57]And then when she takes after she takes her oldest child to Berkeley, she falls into
[3:04]a real depression, which she can't seem to get out of.
[3:08]And eventually she's taken to a state mental health hospital and her two kids who were
[3:14]remaining home and her son, who's a student at Berkeley, have to then put together their
[3:20]lives and try to help them all and go from there, so to speak.
[3:25]So that's what it's about.
[3:27]It's about giving so much and then realizing you have nothing left to give.
[3:34]I love all the palisades references in the book in Palae High and all the stuff.
[3:39]And even how you have Walter get into Palae High because of a relationship with his mom
[3:44]with someone in her exercise class whose address that she kind of stole.
[3:49]I thought it was so interesting how you said, you know, she could have turned them in.
[3:52]She could have easily have noticed all the mail, but something that so many people, not so
[3:57]many, but many people were trying to do just to get a better education.
[4:00]And you talk about the moms reverence for her nursing degree and how important education
[4:05]was for her and also wants to do is just like give her kids a better life.
[4:09]So immediately we're like drawn in and sort of rooting for her and like, is what would
[4:13]we all not do for our kids?
[4:16]Yeah, that's true.
[4:17]And it's also just a sad state of affairs that that one has to do that or would have to
[4:23]do that because, you know, there's been all the studies as you well know of the zip code
[4:28]of where you live really determining so much of your future socioeconomic outcome.
[4:33]So she thinks that the best, she's probably right that the school that she's, that her
[4:37]kids are districted for is not as good a school, but that's a very sad state of affairs,
[4:43]especially for the people who have been public schools when they were, when they were
[4:46]a little better than they are now.
[4:48]Yeah.
[4:49]And you immediately highlight the competition between moms, which so many people can relate
[4:55]to as well when she's driving up to take Walter to school and the other moms, like you're
[4:59]not going, well, I wouldn't miss this for anything.
[5:02]And I'm like, oh, I could, I could so see and hear that whole scene.
[5:06]I know that other mom, you know, and she's just like, you know, oh, no, you know, like
[5:11]bracing herself and even how Walter was imperceptive and is like, my mom doesn't, you
[5:16]know, she didn't do well with women like that.
[5:18]You know, they made her nervous, which of course like women like that make everyone
[5:21]miss, you know, I have two 15 year olds, they're almost 16.
[5:29]And then a nine year old and an eight year old.
[5:31]So I know that's so nice.
[5:35]It's fun, but I, but yes, you come up against all types of parents, talk about the decision
[5:45]to figure out what to do when the mom has this breakdown.
[5:48]There's so many ways you could have gone with the story, right?
[5:50]She could have just suffered at home, like, why go to the institution, why or how, I guess
[5:56]I should back up and just say, which, like, which piece of this story came to you first?
[6:01]Like what was really exciting to you about it?
[6:03]I think one of the ways I really, you know, with the novel, this, that I worked on for
[6:07]this long, I had a couple of sort of little doors into it.
[6:11]And one of them was certainly Walter was starting with a kid who was in college and we
[6:15]had a lot of unusual experiences, you know, sort of falling in love with the two girls
[6:20]down the hall and especially one and loving his roommate and just, yeah, just do it with
[6:27]the feelings of friendship.
[6:28]But at the same time, as he's having these very sort of universal and typical experiences,
[6:34]he also has a whole other life going on in his head about his concern for what's going
[6:39]on at home.
[6:41]And then another way into the book I had is I read an essay by the late and wonderful writer
[6:48]Oliver Sacks called The Lost Virtues of the Asylum.
[6:52]And I, you know, before that, I guess I, I grown up, like most people in my generation,
[6:57]you know, I'd seen who went through a book, who couldn't ask them.
[7:00]I sort of thought of those state, those big state institutions and snake pits and terrible
[7:05]places of abuse and exploitation.
[7:10]But this essay sort of traced the history of how those hospitals started in America and
[7:15]what the original ideals were.
[7:17]And he actually quoted a number of people who've been committed and several of them actually
[7:25]had better lives in a smaller, more protected environment and wrote about it in their memoirs.
[7:32]So while acknowledging, he himself worked at Bronx State, which was one of these hospitals
[7:37]for decades.
[7:38]So he had a certain kind of authority and he, he wasn't glossing over anything.
[7:43]He said, of course, there were bad nurses, of course, there were bad doctors and of course,
[7:46]there was a very good ones.
[7:47]And, you know, he had memories of all kinds, but he certainly remembered many patients
[7:54]reading peaceful and seemingly productive lives inside the institution.
[8:00]So I was also thinking about that and I was thinking about how really we grew up at
[8:07]at least I grew up kind of in the age of institutions and how many have really ceased
[8:13]to exist.
[8:14]I grew up in a town in the Midwest where there was one orphanage in the middle of town.
[8:19]Now we have foster care, you know, we don't really have an orphanage.
[8:23]There are all kinds of ways in which we've changed the way we take care of society's
[8:28]media people and, and I guess this was a little bit of a, I wanted to examine whether
[8:34]maybe went too far and closing all the mental health hospitals or in the most of them
[8:40]out.
[8:41]Now 90% of people are who were there in 1960, you know, the beds aren't there anymore.
[8:46]Well, I feel like you see that particularly here in New York, the effect of not having
[8:50]proper, you know, state-sanctioned mental health and what happens as a result of all that.
[8:56]Yeah, I worked in a, in a psychiatric institution for a little, for a summer, which I found
[9:02]really eye-opening because in my head, I was, I, for a while, I wanted to be a psychologist
[9:07]and all of that.
[9:08]So in my head, I thought, okay, well, when you get to a point where you really need to
[9:11]go to a hospital, right, like they'll be really, they'll take care of you and, you know,
[9:15]you'll really get the care you need.
[9:17]But when I was there, managing so many people with so many disparate mental health conditions
[9:24]all in the same ward, it basically became much more about management and I was in the
[9:30]adolescent and patient unit, but still, it became about like rewards and systems and how
[9:35]to manage.
[9:36]I'm like, well, this is not the like TLC, I would imagine where like you hit bottom
[9:40]need help, right?
[9:41]This is like the complete opposite.
[9:43]This isn't going to make anybody feel any better.
[9:45]Like how is this going to help?
[9:46]And that's kind of what happened everywhere, a large thing that happened with these big
[9:51]state institutions is when they opened, people brought their aged parents and learn.
[9:59]So it was...
[10:00]kind of the first form of institutionalized elder care in this country. And so, of course,
[10:06]these words became incredibly overcrowded. The funding was less than native, of course,
[10:12]hoped or then it had been at the beginning. Of course, that's not going to work. These places
[10:17]were designed to have therapy, really, and to have a kind of peace and quiet and some time in nature
[10:25]libraries and so forth, orchestras. And, of course, with one or two doctors and hundreds of
[10:32]patients, none of that is possible. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Well, it's really powerful the way you write
[10:38]about it and for us to see it. Another great example, I feel like, and I don't know if you read
[10:43]Wally Lam's book, which was recently made into that mini series, which was amazing.
[10:49]Wasn't that amazing? It's like, it's going to be really great. Yeah, I have it in my queue.
[10:53]Oh, my gosh. Push it up the queue. Now, I'm blanking on the name. I'm always
[10:57]forget the name. It was with Mark Ruffalo. But you will never think about institutions the same way
[11:02]after that either. So, I don't know. I feel like there's a narrative about, you know, it's
[11:10]prison literature, institutional literature. Anyway, you also are really good, as you well know,
[11:15]I'm sure, but at observing the way that society works and all those sort of unspoken things,
[11:21]like you had a line that said how the younger daughter analyzed something like she analyzed
[11:27]the way that the the goddess girl is at Pally high. How they operated similar to how
[11:33]boys analyze sports moves, right? Like they had to study them. She had to know everything.
[11:39]Talk a little bit about that because I feel like there's so much of this like societal
[11:44]commentary woven it. I think that's always a good thing for the novel. You know, I think that's
[11:50]what in a way what we go to fiction for is those little irritations and those little hurts and
[11:55]those little things that we feel in every day, every day life get explained in fiction.
[12:01]And especially with this family because they're not quite members of this community and
[12:07]they live outside of district. As you said, their mom got them in with a fake address so they
[12:14]can't ever have people over to where they live. They can't even accept a ride home. You know,
[12:20]if one of their friends is traveling, they can't even get home because they don't want to,
[12:23]you know, blow their cover. Because of that, I think they're also especially vigilant in that way.
[12:30]They're all vigilant and what is for one. It doesn't easily gracefully casually belong.
[12:38]The show was I know this much is true. It just came to me by the way.
[12:43]But you write really well about this feeling of being other or right, being on the outside
[12:49]and trying so hard to get in. Like where does that come from for you? And like where in what
[12:54]situations do you feel other? That's a good question. I think probably, you know, I grew up as
[13:03]the child of a single mom and we lived in a small Midwestern town and then eventually moved to
[13:08]California. So I don't know. I don't think I was ever quite in the situation of these kids,
[13:15]but I certainly grew up poorer than most of my classmates. So I was aware of that kind of
[13:21]feeling interesting. And then how did you go from coming from the Midwest and your background or
[13:30]whatever, however you arrived in LA to then, you know, selling books, having your book in 1986,
[13:37]we made into a movie. I mean, that's like the American dream, right? So what happened in between 1986
[13:46]arriving in Hollywood? How did that all happen? In 1986, I was living in New York, but oh,
[13:52]okay, sorry. We looked sold to Hollywood, but it didn't get made. I don't think it could tell a few
[13:57]years later. But I actually, I went to UC Berkeley and I had a situation a little bit like Walters
[14:05]at Berkeley. I was a scholarship kid at Berkeley. And then I went to New York for graduate school
[14:14]to Columbia. And I guess when I went to Berkeley, I first thought like you, I first thought
[14:19]I might want to be a psychiatrist and then changed to writing. And I stayed, I guess, a few years
[14:26]after graduating and worked as a journalist, which was really fun. And I guess it's what I, you know,
[14:32]it's what I always wanted to do most. And so I sort of stuck at it for better or worse.
[14:39]What was it like having that book be successful and get made, you know, get made option made,
[14:46]like the whole to do. And then, you know, you've written how many know six novels now, six, seven,
[14:52]seven, seven. Sorry. How do you keep sort of reinventing the form and figuring out what to do next and
[14:59]so keeping this going without being hindered by past successes? Well, I think I've been lucky
[15:06]in a way in that regard. I mean, I'm, I don't think I'm that, you know, I'm not that successful.
[15:10]So I wouldn't ever get that feeling like, oh my God, I've made it. You know what I mean? I still
[15:15]feel sort of hungry. I still teach, for example, I've still got my teaching done. And so I
[15:21]thought it hasn't been so much a problem. I think every time, you know, it is, if you feel like it
[15:26]should get easier, but it doesn't necessarily. It's one of those, it's one of those fields in which
[15:33]every story seems to be, seems to present its own problems and challenges. And this one was hard
[15:39]for me. How any reference earlier that this took you a while, how long did this take it? When did
[15:44]you start working on it? Somebody asked me that and I told this lovely reporter at the LA Times
[15:52]they're taking six years. And then afterwards, I Googled it and actually was nine years since my last
[15:59]story, way too long, although there were other things in there too. There was covalent in, you know,
[16:03]the paper shortage and my editor who I've been with for years and years was working in, in the
[16:11]south. She'd go back to Charleston where she has relatives and she wasn't with her assistant and
[16:17]she's very computer dependent. So things went slower than usual, but nonetheless, it was a very,
[16:21]very long time. I don't encourage that. I don't think one of the good things about that,
[16:27]was I did actually start a shorter book well in the last few years of this book. And so I
[16:33]have another one almost ready. Oh, make a little time. Yeah, good. Tell me about that book.
[16:42]That book is two sections. It's called Help and it's and it's sequel. And it's about, you know,
[16:50]the problems of helping other people of trying to help other people. It's about a young woman
[16:55]in New York just out of graduate school, just trying to, you know, make a living, just barely,
[17:00]barely making a living, getting her first department. And at that time, her family back in the Midwest
[17:07]has one of her cousins has been hospitalized because she's having terrible problems at home and
[17:13]she's not eating and she it's looking very bad for her. So they want to send her to work to this,
[17:20]to what they see as their successful, you know, niece, but in fact, she's barely, you know,
[17:26]she goes to the bank machine and takes out a $20 bill because that's really all she can take out
[17:31]because she's near the bottom to develop. So it's about that girl coming to stay with her and trying
[17:37]to help her. But the limits of that, while at the same time, her landlord comes to her with his
[17:45]granddaughter who's who's fairly privileged. She's seeing a private guidance counselor. They know
[17:49]that she's trying to be a journalist. And they say, will you help her write her college entrance
[17:55]essay? So it's about who's able to be helped and who's not why and all the complexities of that.
[18:03]Oh, that sounds really good. Exciting. Just keep it out. Keep it going. Keep the machine turning.
[18:10]What do you like to do when you're not teaching and writing and all of that?
[18:15]I know you live in California. Do hike. I feel like everybody who lives in Santa Monica hikes.
[18:20]Let's do it. I see you have a dog. I have a wonderful dog. I see Copperfield.
[18:25]Gosh, I don't know. The usual things that suppose I take walks, I hike, I read, I go to the movies,
[18:30]I have dinner parties, all that. I just, it's funny that, you know, the kids your age, I just,
[18:36]I just was at a wedding and it kind of a lovely, lovely wedding in Northern California with
[18:42]five of the families, my oldest child, my son grew up with. And sort of his best friend from
[18:48]me put on was just getting married. So it was really lovely to see those families get off.
[18:54]Yeah. I have a group with my oldest son's lower school buddies.
[19:00]And like, because I feel like that group of moms in particular, we went through so much,
[19:04]actually even his preschool buddies. That's another group of friends. I don't know. I guess my
[19:08]two ends like going through the ringer. Well, it's a whole different group. Yeah. There's something
[19:13]about, you know, in the trenches with those families and, and at this, especially at that young age,
[19:18]but kind of different than now. But you know, and are you reading anything great?
[19:22]I'm teaching my Antonya and to the lighthouse, which we're both publishing
[19:26]around. And that's, it's really delightful to be doing that. So I've been reading all this
[19:32]gather material and all this world material. Wow. It's really funny too. I've been, you know,
[19:38]who I have unbooked to trying to sound halfway intelligent talking about my book. And in the
[19:43]critical edition that I'm teaching my Antonya from her early interviews when she was, you know,
[19:50]trying to talk about the book. And she's so much more stilted in the interview than she was.
[19:55]You know, but I think it's very funny. So you've been in the publishing.
[20:00]world for a long time.
[20:01]How do you see where we are today?
[20:03]And was there anything better back in the day,
[20:06]or is it easier or harder to break out books,
[20:09]or is there anything we can do?
[20:11]I feel like it's some days it feels really challenging.
[20:14]I don't know.
[20:15]I think it's kind of self-protective reasons,
[20:19]just so I can write, I don't follow it probably
[20:21]as attentively as the same my character follows
[20:24]the social ups and downs for high school.
[20:27]So I'm not sure.
[20:28]I think that certainly during COVID,
[20:31]everybody was reading a lot.
[20:33]You know, I hear a lot about young people not reading,
[20:36]but I haven't, I don't know if I fully buy it
[20:40]because I teach college students,
[20:42]and I like to teach the big novel sometimes.
[20:45]You know, like I've talked a little bit
[20:46]a little bit a little bit of several times.
[20:47]Oh, I'm probably feeling, I want to teach great expectations.
[20:50]You know, I like to teach it for big novel
[20:52]that takes the whole time to do.
[20:54]And that's all we do.
[20:55]We just do that novel.
[20:57]So we're reading at a reasonable pace.
[20:59]We're not reading hundreds of pages.
[21:02]I go down the halls and I see, you know,
[21:04]some people will have middle march covered
[21:06]in two weeks in their class and I think,
[21:09]why can you pass something to me?
[21:11]In two weeks, you know, so I often get, you know,
[21:15]students from all over campus will take these classes.
[21:18]And sometimes it's the first real 19th century
[21:22]demanding long novel.
[21:24]A lot of these students will have read
[21:25]and it's absolutely an exhilarating experience for them.
[21:29]So I'm not sure, I buy,
[21:33]but on the other hand, we are all on our phones
[21:35]and that's true too.
[21:37]So I don't know what the future will be,
[21:40]a books and literature.
[21:42]I just don't know.
[21:43]I think it probably helps that there are certainly
[21:47]good aspects of it all.
[21:48]I mean, I have my writing students do a little research
[21:52]on literary magazines and also including online magazines.
[21:56]And each time they do it, it's kind of fun for me too
[22:00]because they'll come up with a few new online magazines,
[22:03]which are really good.
[22:05]And, you know, if you love this kind of thing,
[22:08]they should be going out in their 20s
[22:10]and starting some magazines and starting some podcasts
[22:13]and, you know, starting some book clubs online,
[22:16]starting more public communal reading experiences.
[22:21]Totally agree.
[22:22]Yes, it would be helpful to everyone involved.
[22:25]What is your process when you're writing a novel?
[22:28]Like, do you have a, where's your favorite place to write
[22:31]and do you do it by hand or you type or what does that look like?
[22:34]I used to write everything by hand
[22:36]and now I should opposite.
[22:37]Now I sort of, I still write sections in hand,
[22:40]but then I typed them into the computer
[22:42]and now I do a lot of revising by hand.
[22:44]I'll print the thing out and I'll revise it.
[22:47]In terms of a place to write, no, I actually,
[22:50]I moved back, I used to have, I do have a little office
[22:54]at UCLA, but that's a waste from home.
[22:57]And I used to have a little office.
[22:58]I rented an office in Santa Monica,
[23:00]which I'm now sublimbing because I moved home
[23:02]when I guess when my kids were in high school,
[23:04]because I had plenty of time at home when they weren't here.
[23:08]But now I sort of roam around the house.
[23:11]So often I'm, you know, working at the table
[23:13]because I just live with one other person.
[23:15]It's quite quiet.
[23:19]Do you have a favorite food?
[23:21]I have no idea what I'm seeing with.
[23:22]I'm just curious.
[23:24]You know, I live in California.
[23:26]So the produce here is so good.
[23:29]So I have, I probably have seasonal favorite foods,
[23:32]but it's funny that Santa Monica
[23:35]who has wonderful farmers market.
[23:36]So it's a great place to shop
[23:38]because I go with one of my neighbors down the street
[23:41]who he carries a huge wagon.
[23:43]He's Italian and has a fabulous cook.
[23:46]I sort of trail along in his wagon,
[23:49]but there's a kind of berry that we all get here
[23:52]called Harry's berries, which I saw was in New York.
[23:56]Just last week.
[23:57]They do not taste as good here.
[23:58]It's totally different.
[24:00]I was so excited.
[24:01]And I'm like, this does not taste the same at all.
[24:04]They should just not taste.
[24:05]I don't know.
[24:06]I don't know.
[24:07]Maybe it's just like eating food clothes
[24:09]or to wear it grows.
[24:10]It's just so much better.
[24:12]It's much better.
[24:13]Yeah, I'm just, I'm a true California.
[24:17]I have a vegetable garden and everything.
[24:19]Oh, I was voting citrus for you.
[24:21]I was seeing oranges and grapefruits.
[24:25]Anyway, I don't know.
[24:26]I'm crazy.
[24:27]I don't know what I'm talking about this.
[24:28]Anyway, congratulations on commitment.
[24:30]Thank you so much.
[24:31]It was really fun chatting, getting to know you.
[24:33]And I'm really excited for your event
[24:35]at Civie's Bookshop coming up with Amy Efron.
[24:38]That'll be lovely.
[24:39]And thank you for all your time this morning.
[24:41]Thank you.
[24:42]It's so nice.
[24:43]It's so nice getting a chance to talk to you too.
[24:46]All right, thanks so much, Mona.
[24:47]Bye.
[24:49]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[24:52]to Read Books.
[24:53]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zibi Owens,
[24:56]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[24:58]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com
[25:00]and sign up for my virtual book club
[25:02]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[25:05]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[25:06]at Tech's True Sound for the Sound Editing.
[25:08]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[25:10]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.