Balli Kaur Jaswal, NOW YOU SEE US: A Novel
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Fali Kair Jazwal is the author of Now UCS A Novel.
[1:07]She's actually the author of five novels, including erotic stories for Punjabi widows,
[1:12]which was a recent book club pick in 2018.
[1:15]Born in Singapore and raised in Japan, Russia and the Philippines.
[1:19]Jazwal studied creative writing at Holland's University in Virginia and worked as an English
[1:23]teacher in Australia and Turkey.
[1:25]She has held fellowships at the University of East Anglia and Nanyang, Technological University,
[1:32]where she also completed her PhD in South Asian diaspora writing.
[1:36]Her nonfiction has appeared in The New York Times, Harper's Bizarre India, Refinery29,
[1:40]and salon.com, among other publications.
[1:43]By the way, in this episode, I could not remember the name of another book.
[1:49]And so I put that in the show notes after so you can go check there.
[1:52]Welcome, Fali.
[1:53]Thank you so much for coming.
[1:54]And moms don't have time to read books to discuss.
[1:56]Now UCS A Novel.
[1:58]Thank you so much for having me, Zippy.
[2:01]Of course.
[2:02]It's a pleasure.
[2:03]Can you please tell listeners what your book is about?
[2:05]So now UCS is a novel about re-domestic workers in Singapore who band together to exonerate
[2:15]the friend of theirs who has been accused of murder in a nutshell.
[2:20]You do such a good job with setting scenes.
[2:23]I feel like your book is so visual, whether it's the rainstorm with the bus driving
[2:28]by, or people flying into this ministry or the markets, or checking the phone apps,
[2:35]or all these little moments are so real.
[2:39]So I guess one of my first questions is, is this going to be a TV show, a movie, any of
[2:44]it?
[2:45]Because it feels very cinematic to me in the way that it's portrayed.
[2:48]I'm happy to hear that, because I think the priority for me is worldbuilding, especially
[2:54]bringing a world to readers, bringing a world like Singapore to readers who don't know
[2:58]much about it.
[2:59]I really wanted to get those details down.
[3:03]And I was really sort of, I've written another novel about Singapore before, but this
[3:07]was the first novel that I wrote about Singapore while actually living here and experiencing
[3:12]Singapore.
[3:13]So it felt overwhelming at times, like there was just so much that I wanted to put into
[3:17]the novel that I had to really pair back in order to make way for the narrative and
[3:22]for the story.
[3:23]But as for a movie, yeah, conversations are happening, but conversations are conversations.
[3:28]So I can't say much, yeah, okay.
[3:31]Well, I feel like it would be really great because yeah, I could just see it so well.
[3:36]And I haven't been to Singapore.
[3:37]So I feel like this is one of those books that really like took me somewhere, you know,
[3:41]like if you want to go to Singapore.
[3:43]But of course, this is like a lot of different parts and a lot of different worlds and
[3:47]social strata and all of that.
[3:50]And each character, I felt like, so sympathetic towards, you know, whether it was like
[3:56]what's named Dora Lee who like comes in all, you know, looking all nice with her skin
[4:00]type outfits, but then gets totally, you know, she's like the rebel character basically
[4:06]like, okay, yeah.
[4:09]And Cora is sort of like the older, more experienced hiding secrets of her own from the
[4:14]past.
[4:15]And I just, it's all so interwoven and awesome.
[4:19]I read that you did just so much research on telling me all about the research that went
[4:24]into it, not just in what Singapore is like, but also this culture of staffing and help
[4:30]and all of that.
[4:31]So I suppose the basis of my research, the road into it was that when I was 16, my family
[4:37]actually moved to the Philippines.
[4:39]So we lived there for three years and we moved there from Singapore, where I'm from.
[4:44]there was a very controversial case here of a domestic worker from the Philippines who
[4:49]was executed in Singapore for murder, for murdering her employer's child and another
[4:55]domestic worker.
[4:56]And growing up here with only one source of media, which was state-run media and very little
[5:01]internet at the time, I just, you know, wholeheartedly believe that story, everyone did.
[5:07]And then we moved to the Philippines and anytime someone asked us where we were from, we
[5:12]said we're from Singapore, people would say, oh, your country executed an innocent
[5:16]woman from our country and I heard just a whole different side of that story.
[5:20]So that was really where the spark began, it's strange to say because that's over 20 years
[5:25]ago.
[5:26]But that was really a moment for me where I understood that there are different narratives
[5:30]about one thing depending on where you are, and depending on who has stake and who has control
[5:35]over that narrative.
[5:37]So I think the backgrounds of these women and the circumstances that lead them to come
[5:45]to Singapore, those narratives were very much part of my formative years growing up and
[5:52]living in the Philippines.
[5:54]And then, of course, writing this novel over 20 years later, I needed to sort of confirm
[5:58]some of those narratives and update some of those narratives and actually speak one-on-one
[6:03]with women to make sure that I wasn't just hearing stories and writing a novel based
[6:09]on details, really interesting anecdotes that I had heard rather than experienced and witnessed.
[6:16]So I contacted a number of domestic workers, some of whom I knew through various writing
[6:22]groups in Singapore.
[6:24]And then once you speak to one and you say this is what I'm writing about, they contact
[6:29]their networks and they start sharing.
[6:32]And so I had quite a few people to speak to.
[6:34]I also spoke to a domestic worker in Saudi Arabia a couple of them actually several years
[6:39]ago before.
[6:40]I even knew that I was going to write this novel because it was just such a topic of interest
[6:43]to me that I just knew that I just wanted to know about their worlds and their lives.
[6:48]You should.
[6:49]Oh my gosh.
[6:50]Now, I'm forgetting the name of it.
[6:51]If you haven't already, I'm going to put you in touch with this author.
[6:52]She wrote about this, but in India, and it's like 10-ling short stories, some of which
[6:57]are from the point of view of domestic workers, some from the employers.
[7:01]I will read that.
[7:02]I will think of it.
[7:03]But I feel like the two of you should be in conversations somewhere.
[7:06]So I will, my brain is not working so well.
[7:08]It'll come to me.
[7:09]Give a give a time to like squirrel around.
[7:11]Wait, first of all, why did your family move around so much?
[7:14]And how did you end up in Singapore to begin, tell me your family story a little bit.
[7:20]Well, so my family Singapore in, my dad was born in India, but he moved here when he was
[7:26]three.
[7:27]So the very Singaporean, my mom was born here.
[7:30]And my dad's job for the government, Singapore government, just required us to move quite
[7:34]a bit.
[7:35]So it was sort of fortuitous that we ended up in the Philippines and quite a quite an
[7:41]interesting time of conflict between two countries.
[7:44]Interesting.
[7:46]When you wrote from the point of view, there was one scene you had with Miss Elizabeth
[7:50]or Mamal Elizabeth, I should say.
[7:53]And to Cora, when she's basically not asking Cora to do much of anything and wanting
[7:57]her to just accompany her to places and, you know, bring her to the good hospital versus
[8:02]the possible she's supposed to use and all that.
[8:04]And there's this moment where Cora is like, listen, you think you're being nice, but
[8:08]you're actually putting me in this very awkward position.
[8:10]And people are looking at me sideways, you're it's making me feel uncomfortable in my
[8:15]own community.
[8:16]Like you're not being nice.
[8:17]Just like cut it out.
[8:19]Tell me about that moment and how, how did the domestic workers you spoke to feel about
[8:25]that?
[8:26]Like, did they like, did that come from somewhere?
[8:28]Did you make that up?
[8:29]Like, I found that to be very powerful.
[8:32]I think that probably most of what happens between Cora and Mamal Elizabeth came from
[8:38]personally my desire to showcase what it's like to have a nice employer, a good employer
[8:43]because there's another employer in the book because that's absolutely awful.
[8:47]We hear a lot of those stories here, unfortunately.
[8:50]And with Mamal Elizabeth, I wanted to show, you know, the other side of things, but also
[8:54]to show that the other side also comes with its complications and its complexities and that
[8:58]a lot of domestic workers want boundaries and they want to, you know, draw a line between
[9:04]yourself and them.
[9:05]I mean, even in the conversations that I had with women, even though I said, you know,
[9:09]refer to me as Bali, like, where are you girls in this conversation?
[9:12]I'm not an employer.
[9:14]I still just couldn't really shake that.
[9:16]They still refer to me as Miss.
[9:17]They were still sort of in their interactions with me, very tentative in the beginning.
[9:23]I think when we warmed up and stuff, then we started talking to each other and, you know,
[9:27]it changed a little bit, but there was still this sense of like, you have, you have power
[9:32]here.
[9:33]You have power in this country and I do not, you know, so that said, though, they were very
[9:37]honest.
[9:38]And I didn't feel like they were, they were holding back much when they started talking
[9:42]about what they've been through and Singapore.
[9:44]Did you have domestic workers to yourself growing up or now?
[9:48]No.
[9:49]So not growing up?
[9:50]No.
[9:51]We didn't have domestic workers.
[9:53]I did have, I should say, I do have a nanny for my son.
[9:57]He's, he's almost, he's turning sixth soon and I just asked her.
[10:00]where our nanny is going to leave us soon
[10:03]because he's become more independent.
[10:05]But yeah, that was something that I didn't put directly
[10:09]into the book.
[10:10]I wanted to separate a little bit of my interactions
[10:12]with the things that happened in the imaginary world
[10:15]that I was creating.
[10:16]But some moments, things like the boundaries,
[10:21]things like wanting to kind of extend and say,
[10:24]you can do this, you should sit at the dinner table
[10:27]with us, for example.
[10:29]You shouldn't wait for us to eat,
[10:31]and then eat your dinner.
[10:32]Like that's absurd.
[10:33]She got quite annoyed about.
[10:36]She was kind of like, no, this is what I'm going to do.
[10:38]And we decided to just let her set the boundaries.
[10:41]And just say, OK, whatever it is that makes you comfortable,
[10:45]you decide on what those are.
[10:47]And we'll just leave it that way.
[10:49]Because I felt a little bit like the mama
[10:50]Elizabeth sometimes wanting to sort of overreach
[10:54]in my effort to not be like the other employer,
[10:56]like the most fun that you hear about.
[10:59]Yeah.
[11:01]And then even the interactions with the domestic workers
[11:04]and the men, which is highly charged as well,
[11:06]you have one employer, bus man who's throwing ashtrays at Cora
[11:12]from back in the day.
[11:14]And just even the advice, don't look too nice or so
[11:18]wife will think that the dad's going to be like staring at you,
[11:20]even if you're alone in your room with the door closed
[11:23]or whatever, it's a very tricky terrain to navigate.
[11:26]And therefore, it makes the most interesting fiction.
[11:31]Yeah, I think the fact that it didn't
[11:34]occur to me until I started writing this book
[11:36]that there are so many complications too.
[11:38]And I guess it didn't occur to me until we hired an any ourselves
[11:41]that there are just so many things to navigate and negotiate
[11:44]when you are employing someone that they live with you.
[11:49]And in Singapore, their identities
[11:52]are completely linked to yours.
[11:55]And her passport number is linked to my passport number.
[11:57]So I had to deal with this thing of like,
[12:00]I just had a child who was completely dependent on me.
[12:03]And I suddenly had this new person,
[12:04]this new little human being who was dependent on me.
[12:07]And then I also eight months later,
[12:08]when we decided to hire a domestic worker,
[12:11]I also had this woman in her 30s whose life was just so
[12:15]intricately linked with mine, even just
[12:17]bureaucratically, officially.
[12:20]And it's a lot to navigate.
[12:21]You're an employer in your own home, which is very strange.
[12:25]I have to say, and I've considered debating whether I should
[12:27]have been sharing this on this podcast.
[12:29]But growing up, my mom, with my family,
[12:32]we had this wonderful housekeeper from the Philippines named
[12:35]Connie, who came over when she was 18.
[12:38]And she lived with us for a time and then got married.
[12:41]And my kids were in her wedding.
[12:42]And literally was with us for, I don't know, 25 years.
[12:46]And it was like a part of our family in so many ways.
[12:49]And then she was on her way to a bridal shower.
[12:53]And in the Times Square subway station,
[12:55]and this woman who had just been released from Bellevue
[12:57]pushed her in front of the subway and killed her.
[12:59]Something was terrific, I know.
[13:01]I know.
[13:02]I was not to bring the mood of this podcast down.
[13:04]But yeah, it was horrific.
[13:06]And then it turned out that woman got put into prison
[13:09]where she then killed herself.
[13:11]I know, it was terrible.
[13:13]So, but I still, she was such a part of my world.
[13:19]And every time I, she helped me so much when I was on
[13:22]a bed rest, actually, to be honest,
[13:24]when I couldn't do anything, and I had twins,
[13:26]this is now, you know, I'm 16 years ago.
[13:28]But she was so sweet and, you know,
[13:30]just like the nicest, most wonderful person.
[13:33]Anyway, so that's my, I'm so sorry to be there.
[13:37]That's my sad story of the day.
[13:39]But yeah, thank you.
[13:40]Yeah, that was like, maybe 2014 or something.
[13:44]Anyway, oh, that's quite recent.
[13:46]Yeah, maybe 13, 14, something like that.
[13:49]Anyway, moving on to writing.
[13:53]So this book came after your last, you know,
[13:58]erotic stories for Punjabi widows,
[14:00]which was Reese's book club pick.
[14:02]And then this came next, had you written this prior
[14:05]to that being selected?
[14:06]Did you feel enormous pressure to write something?
[14:09]Like what was that like?
[14:10]It's sort of in the aftermath of that.
[14:12]And how did that whole thing go down?
[14:14]How did you feel about all of that?
[14:16]And, you know, then going back to like regular writing
[14:19]and tell me about, we'll have to correct you there.
[14:22]Oh, okay.
[14:23]There was a book in between.
[14:24]Oh, I'm so sorry.
[14:25]I'm not sorry.
[14:26]That's okay.
[14:27]So erotic stories came out in 2017 and two years later,
[14:33]my novel, The Unlikely Adventures of Fisher Bill Sisters,
[14:36]came out, that was kind of the second part
[14:38]of a two-book deal.
[14:39]And part of the reason we hired him,
[14:41]and then he just got it, I had a newborn,
[14:44]I couldn't cope with meeting this deadline.
[14:46]And then yeah, so it's been,
[14:48]it's been a couple of years since that novel came out.
[14:50]You know, the Reese's Book Club pick was just massive
[14:55]for the novel.
[14:56]It was, it was published in the UK first.
[14:59]And then, you know, there was a deal between the UK and the US.
[15:02]So there was, it was always meant to be released in the US.
[15:06]But something about Reese with her spoon holding it up
[15:08]and saying, you guys should read this book really boosted it
[15:11]and really created this audience that then, you know,
[15:14]wanted to hear more and wanted to read more,
[15:16]which was just every writer's dream.
[15:19]So with the, yeah, with the follow-up book,
[15:21]I had, I got to have that.
[15:23]I actually, I did have the idea for this novel
[15:26]a long time ago.
[15:27]Like I said, like, you know, that pivotal moment
[15:29]when I was a teenager, I think made me think,
[15:32]even though I didn't know then
[15:33]that I would write novels about anything,
[15:34]I did think this is something special has happened here.
[15:37]Like something that has opened up my world
[15:39]a little bit more has happened here,
[15:40]and I wanna hold on to it.
[15:42]And for years after that, I would come back to this idea
[15:45]like, I'd like to tell the stories of, you know,
[15:50]people who work in other people's homes.
[15:53]And I'd like to tell the, I think that the story
[15:56]of that epiphany, that realization,
[15:58]that, you know, that someone who is cast as guilty
[16:03]in one place or by one group of people
[16:04]can be clearly innocent by another group.
[16:07]So I'm thinking that, but, you know,
[16:09]it just, it wasn't formed yet.
[16:11]And I'm really glad that I didn't push myself
[16:14]to write it as a follow up to her about it stories
[16:16]from a job we would as because I think that it would have
[16:19]been under-researched quite sort of melodramatic.
[16:23]I think it would have followed a lot of the,
[16:26]it would have followed the line of a lot of the narratives
[16:28]that are out there about domestic workers.
[16:30]And there seem to be only two real,
[16:33]and they're real kind of binary narratives.
[16:34]So it's either they're villainous,
[16:37]they're here to take advantage of you
[16:39]and you have to watch them all the time.
[16:41]Or like they are these noble, you know,
[16:44]women who sacrifice all in our complete angels.
[16:47]And I just, the complexity and the nuance
[16:50]between those two things.
[16:52]The fact that like, like Donita, for example,
[16:54]her character, she is unapologetic about being,
[16:57]you know, quite sexy, isn't it?
[17:00]You know, she doesn't fit into this angelic world
[17:02]of sacrificing everything.
[17:04]They have selfish moments.
[17:05]They, you know, they have moments where they lose their temper
[17:09]or where they sometimes, you know, are dishonest.
[17:12]And I wanted to kind of put all of that in there
[17:14]to be like, you know, these, it seems so simple,
[17:17]but like the domestic workers are human beings.
[17:20]And you know, and there's a great deal of nuance
[17:23]and there's a great deal of, there's a whole lot of spectrum,
[17:27]I suppose, when it comes to morality,
[17:29]depending on the circumstances that you're in
[17:31]and what you have to do to survive.
[17:34]And it's just not as simple as those two really kind
[17:37]of black and white narratives of what we know
[17:40]about domestic workers.
[17:41]So I'm quite relieved that it took a longer time
[17:43]to write this book.
[17:45]And that, you know, not just a complication between people,
[17:48]but at least in this book, and I don't know
[17:50]if this is actually the case,
[17:51]that you actually have to go somewhere
[17:52]and have them released from your employment.
[17:56]And you know, it's a whole, it's like the DMV type
[17:59]of situation, like as if you need to register a new car.
[18:02]I mean, it's like ridiculous in them.
[18:03]So I shouldn't say ridiculous.
[18:05]It is the way it is in them.
[18:06]It is pretty ridiculous.
[18:08]I mean, another narrative that we hear all the time here
[18:10]and that I see in a lot of kind of ads
[18:12]and messages that I get from the government here.
[18:16]Like, you know, they'll be a campaign.
[18:18]And sometimes it looks really well intended.
[18:20]And I think it is, but it'll be like, you know,
[18:22]make sure that your master company is getting rest days
[18:25]and make sure that, you know, you are looking up
[18:28]for her mental health, things like that.
[18:30]But then there's always this underlining
[18:31]that right after that, it's like,
[18:32]because she'll be able to work harder for you then.
[18:35]She'll be able to do more for you.
[18:36]It's like they're really, really seen
[18:38]as these productivity machines.
[18:39]Like when we first hired Arnany,
[18:41]there was a time when I went to the supermarket one day
[18:44]and I got into a conversation for some reason
[18:46]with someone in the checkout line who was wondering
[18:49]why I was buying a particular brand of sort of a powdered drink.
[18:54]And I said, oh, I said, my helper said,
[18:57]my helper likes this one.
[18:59]And he looked really confused that she had put something
[19:01]on the shopping list for me to get for her.
[19:04]And then he went, finally, he liked to justify it
[19:07]to himself and he went, well, if you get her the one
[19:09]that gives her more energy,
[19:10]then she'll work harder for you.
[19:12]Oh my gosh, it's a thing she likes.
[19:17]Yeah.
[19:17]Like when I just do the thing for someone
[19:19]for the sake of doing it,
[19:20]like it doesn't all have to lead back to,
[19:22]well, this will then make me more productive.
[19:25]This will make our nation more productive.
[19:28]Well, I also think, you know, with so much spotlight
[19:31]right now on on privilege and differences and wealth
[19:35]and all of that to have a narrative like this
[19:38]is really very important, especially now
[19:42]and the nuanced way in which you did do it
[19:45]was really wonderful.
[19:47]And I don't know if there's how you feel about,
[19:50]you know, acknowledging privilege and all of that.
[19:53]But if you wanted to speak to that at all.
[19:56]Yeah, I think it's interesting to see the reaction.
[20:00]and the way as well that the book is sort of marketed in the U.S. because I think there's
[20:05]this perception and certainly in the U.S. like and in England and in most sort of western countries
[20:10]I think you only really have help at home if you are quite privileged and you do have that
[20:16]wealth whereas in Asia it's quite different the way that the systems are here are just different
[20:21]this an economy of scale that makes it quite mutually beneficial for women to come from Indonesia
[20:26]the Philippines and earn in Singapore dollars and then remit those earnings back.
[20:31]There's also the fact that like we don't have the same sorts of we don't have the same sorts of
[20:36]structures that what I say this this we just don't have like we don't have flexible working
[20:41]for example or we don't have it as much so like your boss is writing you to work all the time
[20:46]and as a result like you know you have to go back to work after maternity leave there's an
[20:51]assumption that someone is there looking after the kids there's an assumption that someone is there
[20:54]making the meals and and and because of that because everyone's got that then it means that
[20:59]you can stay longer at the office so there's things like that there's there's also there's a
[21:04]huge fear as well that people have of taking time off you know to to be with their kids I
[21:09]taking their kid to the doctor or something all of that gets eliminated if you've got someone at
[21:13]home I mean you know how kids think it's sick all the time I'm sure you always there's always
[21:21]like the rotation if they go there's always someone yeah so even I think even for the people who
[21:27]are like you know I won't have a domestic worker like for whatever reason like I don't have the
[21:30]space or I don't have you know I don't I just don't want my privacy intruded on like that or
[21:35]anything it ends up being the default way of getting on with your life and getting back on that
[21:41]treadmill because there are just not many options for yeah for for pulling your kid out of school
[21:47]and staying home with them and working from home like we just don't have those those sort of
[21:51]employment protections in the same way yeah I forgot what your original question was
[21:55]I'm not sure about the Philippines actually I think it would be exported
[22:06]to different countries in Asia yeah so I'm not sure when it hits the shelves in the Philippines
[22:10]and how is the reception in Singapore so far I mean it's only been out for a month now still
[22:18]yeah no it's been a good reception so far yeah the reviews that I've gotten it's been
[22:23]the national newspaper have been very positive so that's good Singaporean readers it's interesting
[22:29]there's a difference again American and British readers or people you know that's spoken to
[22:34]like the whole thing podcasts and things like that have described it as so dystopian
[22:40]and like wow the way you portray you know it just seems it just feels so dystopian it feels
[22:45]satirical and then people in Singapore film feels really real feels feels very much like the
[22:53]world but we live in so I don't I don't know what that says interesting I doesn't feel that
[22:58]satirical when you were here I don't think oh my gosh wow so what are you working on now
[23:07]oh I am just working on having some rest I do have I do have like the beginnings of some ideas
[23:14]about a novel but it's really early I'm not sure how much I can say because I really don't
[23:19]know if I'll commit to it but yeah I was still writing that's the thing okay what's your what
[23:25]are some of your favorite things to do when you're not writing what do you like to do on the weekend
[23:29]I'd like to take long walks I really I really I think again I guess that feeds back to the writing
[23:34]but something something just clears my head it's movement and something on movement just kind of
[23:40]does something to my sense of creativity or just my sense of groundedness and then also just
[23:46]like hanging out with my kid going swimming because it's so humid and hot and simple so doing a
[23:51]lot of that yeah very very simple very simple pleasures no judgment sounds lovely I walked a little
[24:00]bit this morning I mean not like a walk like maybe 15 minutes or something like wow this is like
[24:07]exercise to me now I walked to the gym and now this exercise itself that's fine anyway well
[24:14]Molly thank you so much thank you for coming on and talking about now you see us and I'm excited
[24:20]to follow along and I'm sorry again about missing that other book I didn't do enough research
[24:25]but I was reading the book so there you go thank you anyway it was really great to talk to you
[24:30]Zibi thank you so much for having me okay thanks for coming on have a great day bye
[24:36]thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books don't forget to
[24:40]follow me on instagram at zibi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books also sign up for
[24:46]my newsletter at zibiowans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom
[24:51]every other week thanks so much to Steve and Ryan back texture sound for the sound editing
[24:56]and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and