Michelle D. Hord, THE OTHER SIDE OF YET: Finding Light in the Midst of Darkness
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30-minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction
[0:20]and memoir.
[0:21]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag, where we have lots of wonderful essays and
[0:30]lifestyle features.
[0:31]That's at zippymag.com.
[0:33]We have classes, it's a B-Classist.com.
[0:36]And I recently opened a book store in LA called Zippy's Bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue
[0:43]at 11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings.
[0:49]But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018.
[0:54]And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing.
[0:58]Enjoy.
[1:03]Michelle Ford is the author of the other side of yet, Finding Light in the midst of darkness.
[1:08]Now I have to say someone asked if I would talk to her quickly on the phone one day.
[1:13]So I jumped on knowing nothing about her and she told me her story and I was so riveted
[1:19]and horrified and just bold over by the whole experience and had been accidentally recording
[1:25]the conversation on Zoom because I always record so that I don't forget to record.
[1:30]So at the end of our conversation, I asked if I could just make this into a podcast
[1:35]once I realized that what she was telling me, she had also written about in her book.
[1:41]Let me tell you a little bit about her and you'll see why I really wanted to talk to
[1:44]her about it and make this a podcast.
[1:46]Michelle DeHord is an inspirational speaker, author, consultant, and media executive.
[1:51]As the president of Hope Warrior Inc., a strategic consulting agency and former vice president
[1:57]of creative content and talent management for NBC Universal, Michelle has produced content
[2:02]for an esteemed list of television shows and developed tactical solutions for business
[2:06]and talent management needs through Hope Warrior Inc. Michelle offers her expertise in on-air
[2:12]talent recruitment and development, employer brand marketing, DEI, workforce leadership training
[2:17]and broadcast writing and producing.
[2:18]Okay, this is not why I had around, but this is her background, I'm going to keep going.
[2:22]Here we go.
[2:23]2022, Michelle released her Amazon bestseller, The Other Side of Yet.
[2:28]The book focuses on her story of resilience in the face of unimaginable loss and was written
[2:33]in hopes that others can also find courage and strength on the other side of their own crossroads.
[2:38]Michelle has shared her journey with audiences across the country, focusing on healing,
[2:43]resilience and starting over.
[2:45]Michelle founded Gabriel's Wings Inc. in 2018, a nonprofit she created to honor her daughter,
[2:51]Gabriel Eileen, who was taken by tragedy at age seven, which is what we spoke about.
[2:57]Gabriel's Wings is dedicated to giving children of color from vulnerable communities
[3:01]the tools they need to soar above their circumstances.
[3:05]The organization embodies every parent's dream for their child to grow and thrive without
[3:08]limitations.
[3:09]Michelle is a proud alumna of Howard University and a member of the advisory board for Howard
[3:14]University's School of Communications.
[3:17]She has passed chair of Hampton University's Scripps School of Communications Advisory
[3:20]Board and Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority Inc. member and an associate of Jack and Jill of America.
[3:26]She has worked with organizations like Good Morning America, the oxygen network, CVS News
[3:31]and the Oprah Winfrey Show and has been featured on far more.
[3:35]Listen to our conversation and try not to cry.
[3:37]Hi.
[3:38]Hi.
[3:39]How are you?
[3:40]I guess see my face would be useful.
[3:42]Oh, hey.
[3:43]How are you going?
[3:44]Hey, what is Gabriel's playground?
[3:46]What was that?
[3:47]It flashed on the screen.
[3:48]So Gabriel was my daughter's name.
[3:50]I don't know how much you know about my background, but I don't know anything.
[3:54]I'm so sorry.
[3:55]I just like jumped off.
[3:56]That's okay.
[3:57]Like, what's the zoom?
[3:58]I know Kate Hudson recommended you to talk to me.
[4:00]I've been there.
[4:01]Done that.
[4:02]So I'll start by saying thank you for taking the call because I know when it's like,
[4:05]it's like, I have to pee.
[4:06]Where am I supposed to be right now?
[4:07]Who's this person?
[4:08]So thank you.
[4:10]So I'll back up.
[4:12]I worked for DMA for a really long time as a producer.
[4:14]I was one of Robin Roberts first producers, which totally dates me.
[4:18]I was so have lots of GMA fan relationships, have been a TV producer for most of my career.
[4:25]And Gabriel's playground, which you saw is I'm a nonprofit that I started in my daughter's
[4:30]memory.
[4:31]Oh, no.
[4:32]You lost a daughter.
[4:33]I did.
[4:34]I did.
[4:36]So I wrote a book that came out last year called The Other Side of Yet.
[4:42]And it is a memoir about my experience, really what it's like to come back from the ashes.
[4:50]And the title, there's a million things I would do differently now, first time author.
[4:54]One would probably be do a different title.
[4:56]But the title was based on the verse in Job, though he slay me yet, do I trust him?
[5:01]And how do you get to the point where you can pivot towards something else when your
[5:06]life is not going to look like you thought it would look.
[5:09]So my backstory, just because I think it's useful and why I wanted to get some time with
[5:16]you and appreciate your time.
[5:18]And by the way, I love what you do.
[5:20]I love how you promote moms.
[5:21]I love how you promote normalcy, which social media is not really about, you know, before
[5:27]you're going to Amsterdam or like, oh my God, everything's with everybody six, something's
[5:32]broken, something's because that's real life, right?
[5:34]And so much of what people are inundated with is some sort of BS aspiration.
[5:40]That's not what real life looks like.
[5:41]So I love what you do for authors and your love of books and for moms.
[5:46]So that's why I wanted to get a chance just to say hi and introduce myself to you.
[5:51]My own backstory journalism major from Howard started at America's Most Wanted.
[5:57]And my first big job there was doing missing kid stories.
[6:00]So I would at 23, you know, way back in the day before we had the internet or any of these
[6:06]other tools.
[6:08]My one 800 sky pager would go off and, you know, when a child went missing because there's
[6:13]such a short turnaround time for recovery.
[6:16]And I would go out and produce a piece, be with a family, I get it on the local Fox affiliates.
[6:23]And at the time, what was even crazier as I look back as a grown up now was, you know,
[6:29]I wasn't like the rest.
[6:30]This is pre reality TV, right?
[6:32]So this is back when you had, you know, five nights of 60 minutes and five nights of
[6:37]prime time, right?
[6:38]Like the cheap way of doing TV was news magazines.
[6:42]And so these stories were huge, I wish they were, they're not as big as they were,
[6:47]right?
[6:48]Unfortunately, I remember that.
[6:49]I remember that.
[6:50]Okay.
[6:51]Okay.
[6:52]Yes.
[6:53]I didn't know.
[6:54]I didn't say a certain age.
[6:55]I'm 46.
[6:56]Yes.
[6:57]Let's go for that.
[7:01]So poly class was this huge story out of Petaluma, California that I broke.
[7:06]I was in the house of Polly's family.
[7:08]She was on the cover of People magazine.
[7:10]Oh my God.
[7:11]And because it's America's most wanted, and John Walsh, like all of a sudden, I'm a social
[7:15]worker.
[7:16]I'm a psychiatrist.
[7:17]I'm a publicist, right?
[7:19]Because they trust me.
[7:20]And so in addition to covering the story, you know, I'm not with the rest of the press.
[7:24]I'm having parents say, should I talk to them?
[7:27]Can I trust them, right?
[7:29]So early on in my career, just having proximity to the worst nightmare and really developing
[7:37]a passion is a storyteller for how people like ordinary everyday people somehow survive
[7:44]just the most unimaginable things and still make dinner and take care of kids and
[7:50]tell off color joke, right?
[7:51]Like how do they do that?
[7:53]And then continued, you know, worked CBS, Oprah, long time at GMA, which is why I have
[7:59]my GMA connections.
[8:01]And always love those stories about the triumph of the human spirit, right?
[8:05]How people rally, how they come together, how they somehow survive.
[8:09]And then fast forward, I got married to someone I'd known forever.
[8:12]He was my brother's RA in college at UConn.
[8:15]You know, the whole like Clinefell, Brides magazine, all the New York things, right?
[8:21]As a producer at GMA was told for years, I wouldn't be able to have a kid and gave birth
[8:27]to Gabriel when I was 39, no issues, no, like natural.
[8:33]I won't say an easy birth, but an easy pregnancy, beautiful, healthy little girl.
[8:39]And you know, several years into our marriage decided, unfortunately, this marriage wasn't
[8:44]what I thought it was going to be.
[8:46]This person wasn't who I thought he was.
[8:48]there was never any violence or threat of violence.
[8:50]He was basically just lazy, like a lazy asshole, right?
[8:55]And I still talk like I'm in morning TV.
[8:57]I should have given that disclaimer.
[8:59]But you know, when you're a mother of a girl, you're aware that what you do is more
[9:06]important than what you say, right?
[9:08]In terms of projecting what normal is, what acceptable is, and I just didn't want Gabriel
[9:15]to think that she should have to be mommy, daddy, and everybody else because I was doing
[9:21]that.
[9:22]So I asked for divorce and it was a horrific nasty, you know, tug of word divorce as I've
[9:28]learned over the last several years, so many of them are, right?
[9:32]Like if people haven't been to the process, they just, I'm divorced, I know, I'm remarried.
[9:38]I don't know your process, but I do know that you were divorced and people just really
[9:43]don't understand like how horrific it is.
[9:46]And so we, you know, sort of the knockdown drag out, I move out of the house just because
[9:52]I don't want her to see any drama or friction to barely while we settle things.
[9:58]And June 5th, 20.
[10:00]17, he agrees finally to sign the papers. We meet, we sign the papers. He says to me,
[10:05]you know, I'm so sorry for everything that's happened. And I go back to my rental house,
[10:10]call on my friend like Brian, grateful, praise report. Oh my God, we can, I can start over,
[10:16]right? Put a work the next day. That was a night where Gabriel was spinning the night at her
[10:21]dads. I get a phone call from Arneany at about 3 p.m. And it is clear she's walked into a crime
[10:28]now. And my first thought is, oh my God, he's killed himself. How am I going to explain this to Gabriel?
[10:34]And then I get this sinking feeling, you know, that kind of like just cold ice pick from your head
[10:39]down. And I called one of the moms who was always there for drop off and asked if she'd seen Gabriel
[10:45]that day. And she said now and went found like, you know, one of those little phone booths I was
[10:51]like facilitating at a conference and like found all those little phone booth spaces and went in
[10:56]and shut the door and literally got on my knees. I was like, God, I don't know what I'm walking into,
[11:00]but please just give me the strength to handle whatever it is. And, you know, the longest ride of
[11:06]my life back to New Rochelle, New York. And now there's more police tape and there's a crime scene
[11:13]and I've been here a million times. And now I'm the mother. And the first person I see is my pastor.
[11:19]And so that was almost six years ago, that was June 6, 2017. My ex-husband is now serving 25 years
[11:29]to life because for some reason in New York state, it's not first-degree murder unless it has
[11:35]circumstances unless you kill someone in law enforcement or someone that's a witness or it's an
[11:41]act of terrorism. So it was second degree. And, you know, two years to get a divorce, two years,
[11:48]even to someone who's behind bars, just the whole legal system crazy, which made me realize,
[11:53]oh my God, I have education, I have friends, I have means, I have relative privilege, right? When
[11:59]you look at the universe. And this system is really horrific for me. I can't imagine for, you know,
[12:07]the average person that's dealing with these sort of circumstances. So I've always written,
[12:12]go ahead. Can we go back to the crime scene for one second? Sure. So what, so what happened? Your
[12:18]ex-husband has- She killed our daughter. He killed your daughter. Like, did he have a psychotic
[12:23]break? Like, what happened? He must have. He must have. He has said he was innocent every day.
[12:28]He's gone to a PO court. He's still alive. You know, the big shock for me in that moment was that
[12:33]he didn't have the decency to kill himself. He is still alive. He's serving, you know, 25 years
[12:40]to life. He's tried to appeal it. We had to go through a trial because he, you know, would not admit
[12:47]to the fact that he did this, even though he did on the scene with police. As you can imagine,
[12:54]I can't emotionally go into the details, right? But yeah, this person that I had known.
[13:01]I am so sorry. Thank you. I am so sorry. There are no words to- not that there are no words.
[13:09]I am just so sorry. I can't believe you had to go through this and that you can just sit here on
[13:13]the Zoom and pretend you're like a normal person when like something like this happens. You're-
[13:18]I- I- just my heart is like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that this happened to you. Just, I can't
[13:25]even think you explain how much empathy I'm feeling towards you and I'm so sorry. Anyway, keep going.
[13:33]Thank you. I just had to pause. And I'm sorry. I think my defense mechanism has been,
[13:38]I've had to do this so many times that I've had to learn how to rush through it a little bit.
[13:43]Do you know what I mean? It's fine. I just- I just wanted to like make sure I understood
[13:48]how that- that is actually what happened and I am so sorry. Okay, so keep going. I don't want to stop
[13:54]get you up. No. No, no, no. That's okay. Okay, so he's in prison now. He's in prison now. And, you
[14:01]know, I've always written, you know, those of us that love books, you know, and were the geeky kids
[14:06]that wrote all the time and read all the time and always dreamed of writing a book. I was one of those.
[14:12]This is not a book anybody would ever want to write, right? This is not something you dream of writing,
[14:17]but I knew that journaling was going to save my life. Like if I was going to survive this,
[14:21]it was going to be putting pen to paper. And so every morning I would go outside. I started
[14:27]reading the book of Job because I felt like this was worse than my worst nightmare. Like as a type
[14:34]a high-strung television producer, worst nightmare is your kid gets sick. Some freakish thing
[14:41]happens. It's not this. It's not this. And because this isn't possible, do you know what I mean?
[14:47]like this isn't in the realm of reality. Yeah, so I started writing. Thank God I was introduced to
[14:55]an amazing trauma therapist. And over time as part of my own healing, my trauma therapist would suggest
[15:03]I send, you know, journal entries or poems or things that I'd written to my friends just so they
[15:08]could get a sense of where I was. And I had people say, oh my gosh, I hadn't prayed in years
[15:13]until I read what you wrote. Or, you know, when I heard you speak at Gabrielle's funeral,
[15:20]that was such an aha moment in my own life. And so I felt led to somehow share this journey.
[15:27]But what was so important to me from day one, especially because as a TV producer, I know
[15:34]are kind of thirst for the macabre. And I know this world of date line 48 hours, right, that we live
[15:41]was that my daughter's legacy was going to be about who she was and what I built in a foundation
[15:48]and not what happened to her. I also understood that in order to really talk about what it meant
[15:56]to become resilient and to have hope and to rebuild from the ashes, I was going to have to say what
[16:02]happened out loud. And so my book is my journey. And it's the journey of how do you get to the other
[16:10]side of life, completely knocking you on your ass in a way you can never imagine. And it's
[16:17]divided into before yet and after from that verse. And also just from, you know, these universal
[16:24]moments where we thought we knew it like would look like. And guess what, it's never going to look
[16:28]like that again. Right. And COVID was one of those universally for us. You know, none of us could have
[16:34]imagined until it did that the world shuts down and all of the repercussions. And how do you
[16:40]when everything goes away or everything you thought you understood about your life goes away,
[16:45]how do you pivot? How do you find that yet? And then at some point, find the guts and the hope
[16:52]to imagine you can still have a life, not better, not replace, but that there's still more out there.
[16:59]And so that's the journey that my book tries to take people on. And I wanted to meet you for a long
[17:06]time and talk to you. You know, I won't be the first one to tell you that publishers and publicists do
[17:14]not sell books. But that is not a new school. I'm super, super clear that I was able to sell my book
[17:22]for two reasons. One, I was able to take something that is not imaginable and sell it in the
[17:31]heart of COVID. We were universally going through an unimaginable moment. So I was able to talk about,
[17:38]as I pitched kind of this universal, there are no words moment that we were all living through. And
[17:44]people could grasp that. And frankly, because I've worked at the Oprah show in GMA and all the places
[17:51]that, you know, are kind of crown jewels in the industry to be able to get an audience. And so I did
[17:58]that. I had a big push in terms of getting in front of the radio audiences on the right show.
[18:05]My paperback came out in March. The hardcover came out last March. And, you know, it has not done what
[18:14]I know it could have done because it has been received as this horrific nightmare story. And, you know,
[18:24]if you pitch something as a story of a woman whose daughter is murdered by her dad,
[18:29]you know, thank you. Right? Like what I try to do and what 80% of the book is, if not more,
[18:36]is how do you survive? How do you find joy and crazy moments? How do you keep your wickets
[18:42]sense of humor? How do you find love again? I'm remarried, fell in love in the most unexpected way
[18:49]with most unexpected person. And so so much of the book is that universal experience of having
[18:57]to survive and reimagine your life. And I've struggled to really get that out messaging wise.
[19:05]And so, you know, I'm doing all the things now from a branding standpoint and
[19:10]website and all of that. And the ultimate goal is not the book. It's the idea that this is a message
[19:18]that people need to hear. And I just wanted, you know, in my long sort of
[19:24]vomiting out my entire life to you in 15 minutes, wanted to get your ear because you read so
[19:31]much because you're so exposed in this world. Did you see if you had any advice for me about
[19:39]how I could do a better job of reframing this because there's so much hope and love in this book.
[19:49]And my heart breaks at the thought that people think that it's a crime log. Do you know what I mean?
[19:58]Well, first of all,
[20:00]I think that this conversation
[20:01]because my Zoom automatically records
[20:03]and I always forget to turn it off
[20:04]and I just have like a normal meeting
[20:05]because I'm so often doing podcasts.
[20:08]I think I should just turn this conversation
[20:10]up to this point or whatever
[20:12]and just have this be a podcast
[20:14]because you told me your whole story.
[20:15]I know I haven't read the book
[20:17]because I thought this was a meeting,
[20:18]which it was, but whatever.
[20:19]But I'd love to just put this on my podcast
[20:22]and let everybody else hear your story.
[20:24]It sure is.
[20:25]It's okay with you.
[20:26]Sure.
[20:27]Okay, so there's that.
[20:27]Thank you.
[20:28]You know, in terms of rebranding
[20:31]like the message of the book and selling,
[20:34]I mean, it is all so hard.
[20:36]I wish I had like the magic bullet.
[20:40]But as you know, there are new books coming out every second
[20:44]and what you're doing is the most important thing.
[20:48]I was literally just somebody who's asking me for advice
[20:50]for authors and I'm like,
[20:52]act like a partner with your publisher.
[20:54]You know, like that you can't expect them to do everything.
[20:56]Like the more you can do the better.
[20:58]You know, your book, you care more than anybody in the world.
[21:01]I know I care more about my book,
[21:02]you care more about your book.
[21:03]You know, I mean, like they're like, you know,
[21:05]very important to us.
[21:06]And so not giving up because the update has come and gone
[21:11]is like the most important.
[21:14]You know, I think for you, I think,
[21:16]you know, then this is just my armchair, whatever,
[21:18]but maybe pitching more book clubs,
[21:21]even on a smaller scale going and talking to book clubs,
[21:23]you're a great speaker.
[21:24]I think you should get like a speaker's agent
[21:26]and go on the road and be a speaker.
[21:28]Well, I've had lots of people say that.
[21:31]And if there are any that you would recommend
[21:33]that I reach out to you,
[21:35]that sort of feels like a huge world
[21:37]that I'm not terribly, you know,
[21:39]I'm very comfortable speaking.
[21:41]I mean, I've done a ton of press,
[21:43]you know, I've done a ton of sit down interviews.
[21:47]But I also think that, you know,
[21:50]whether it's corporate, whether it's non-corporate,
[21:52]that they're the messaging about in resilience and hope
[21:54]and, you know, rewriting your own narrative,
[21:57]taking it back is super universal
[22:00]and something that I can share with audiences.
[22:03]Would you be interested in teaching a class
[22:05]or does it be classes?
[22:06]Because you could do it.
[22:07]Yeah, that could be really cool.
[22:08]You could do a whole thing on rewriting your story
[22:11]or picking up the thread or, you know,
[22:13]I think you could teach.
[22:14]No, that sounds really cool.
[22:16]Okay, so I can put you in touch
[22:17]with the woman who runs our classes.
[22:20]But I think I don't know speakers, Puros,
[22:22]that's not my world,
[22:23]but I've actually been meaning to look into it
[22:26]for some other authors as well.
[22:28]So I can do some digging as well and get back to you.
[22:33]I know that there are some authors
[22:34]who are a part of some.
[22:36]So let me call dig into it and you can dig into it too.
[22:38]But I really think you should be taking this sort of
[22:40]on the road, if you will.
[22:42]And I mean, that sounds so callous.
[22:44]But I mean, I think that hearing it from you
[22:47]is so beyond powerful, that it would be hard
[22:50]for people not to want to help you
[22:52]after they hear your story.
[22:54]So I think your main asset is you
[22:57]and your ability to tell your story
[22:59]and not, and I don't mean on media.
[23:02]I mean, I'm sure you've already done all the media,
[23:03]but yes, where people will have to look you in the eye
[23:06]and hear it and then figure out
[23:10]how what you're saying is gonna inspire them.
[23:12]So even schools, honestly, colleges,
[23:16]like, I don't know, I just-
[23:18]Well, it's funny you say that my trauma therapist
[23:20]has shared it with some of her colleagues
[23:23]and I was like, it's this sort of thing,
[23:25]whether it's a theology school or a social worker,
[23:28]that could be a companion.
[23:31]Here is, my joke is always,
[23:33]I'm like, Brene Brown's white paper.
[23:35]With that, I'm the human side of all of the things
[23:40]that people hear about when they talk about resiliency
[23:44]and survival and the choices people make
[23:48]and how they're able to, you know,
[23:50]the tools it takes to overcome for lack of a better word.
[23:54]And listen, I am nobody superhero.
[23:56]I, you know, I think we all do what we're required to do,
[24:01]what life requires for us to do.
[24:04]I'm, you know, the only person on earth
[24:06]that started off doing missing children's stories
[24:08]that America's most wanted and wound up in this position
[24:11]like literally.
[24:13]So I understand what it's like on both sides
[24:17]of that mother's story and that police tape
[24:20]and have done stuff with like the Trayvon Martin Foundation,
[24:24]which is great.
[24:25]But I want to be careful, you know,
[24:27]the nonprofit that I have Gabrielle's wings is focused
[24:31]because my daughter was fortunate enough to be a child
[24:34]of, you know, again, privileges relative,
[24:36]but relative privilege as an African-American child
[24:41]in terms of the school and camp
[24:43]and the things that she was exposed to.
[24:45]The foundation is about finding a way to stand
[24:48]in that gap for other children who looked like her,
[24:50]elementary age children, through literacy,
[24:53]through social, emotional learning.
[24:55]And so we have different programs on three continents
[24:59]are building out our programming, you know,
[25:03]from a literacy perspective, from a manipulables
[25:07]when you're, you know, working with younger kids
[25:10]that are dealing with emotional issues, you know,
[25:12]what are the tools that they need?
[25:14]So I'd love to send you, you know,
[25:18]through your sister, whatever makes them a sense.
[25:20]I'd love to send you a copy of the book.
[25:21]I'd love to send you a link to, you know,
[25:25]some of the stuff I've done, media-wise,
[25:28]so you just get a sense and, you know,
[25:31]about the foundation.
[25:32]And I just, you know, I feel like you can feel people's hearts
[25:36]and I've just, you know, since I've been following you,
[25:41]have felt your heart and your sincerity
[25:43]and just kind of your no BS openness,
[25:46]which I totally appreciate.
[25:48]So I did, because I'm close friends with Robin Roberts,
[25:51]she did something for Nightline and GMA
[25:54]when the book came out last year.
[25:56]They revisited it with this little, you know,
[25:58]those quick little buzz things that they do this year.
[26:02]And I sat down with Ew Pilgrim from Weekend GMA
[26:06]and did a piece that aired in the last couple of weeks.
[26:10]So I mean, I couldn't ask, you know,
[26:12]I mean, like, I've probably gotten more publicity
[26:15]from my book than Will Smith did for his autobiography,
[26:18]but he doesn't need it, because he's supposed to be right.
[26:21]So I think there is something to the intimacy of being
[26:26]in small rooms with people, being live,
[26:28]and in person with people that directionally feels
[26:32]like an important next step.
[26:34]I think so too.
[26:35]For the work, like not, this isn't just, this isn't,
[26:38]I'm not focused on, I mean, listen,
[26:41]I'm a competitive as hell, everybody,
[26:42]you don't write a book if you don't want it to sell, right?
[26:44]You want to be heard, you want to feel like
[26:46]your message is validated.
[26:48]Having said that, what's more important to me at this point
[26:51]is I feel like this is really kind of my ministry
[26:54]is to help women and people overall,
[26:57]but really what does it mean to rewrite your own narrative?
[27:01]And so I'm just looking for smart ways to plug in
[27:03]where I can do that work.
[27:06]Well, again, I am so sorry that this is your story in life.
[27:13]I'm honored that you told it to me.
[27:16]Let me put you in touch with our class person.
[27:18]I'm going to dig around for speakers things,
[27:20]and let me think about it too,
[27:21]if I can think of interesting ways,
[27:24]but I feel like you just, you need to get out there
[27:28]and talk whether it's schools or churches,
[27:31]or even just prisons, or like a population
[27:35]where people feel like they are,
[27:37]yes, how will they rebuild?
[27:39]That's right.
[27:40]Because your message is if I can do it,
[27:41]anybody can do it, and that is the most powerful thing of all.
[27:45]And that is what people need.
[27:47]They don't need examples of resilience.
[27:51]It's much more powerful than the phrase.
[27:53]I know I can do it, but seeing someone and saying,
[27:56]oh my gosh, this woman Michelle came with spoke
[27:58]and it's changed my life.
[27:59]Absolutely.
[28:00]That's what you want.
[28:01]Absolutely.
[28:02]And that's your mission now.
[28:03]Like you have to turn your pain into a calling.
[28:06]Absolutely.
[28:07]How to get through anything, really.
[28:10]So, well, let me keep thinking about creative ways
[28:13]that I can think of or that I could personally help,
[28:16]but hopefully someone will listen to our podcast
[28:18]and think of ways for you to help.
[28:20]And yeah, I think you have to take the show on the road.
[28:24]Thank you.
[28:25]It didn't even bookstores, but like community centers.
[28:28]Yeah, no, and that's definitely, you know,
[28:30]when we did the paperback, we did a book club guide,
[28:34]you know, kind of a, which I think will help facilitate that
[28:38]in terms of getting in front of book clubs and groups
[28:41]to have the conversations, to make it applicable
[28:43]to their own lives.
[28:45]When I stopped producing, I went to NBC Universal
[28:48]and I ran all of recruiting and helped develop curriculum.
[28:51]So I facilitate like I'm this bizarro purple unicorn.
[28:54]So I know what it's like to facilitate classes and courses
[28:57]to help design them.
[28:59]So I bring this very unique toolkit
[29:03]that I think uniquely positions need to do this work.
[29:06]And it's just about the best way to get it in the world.
[29:08]And listen, I'm not asking you to do my homework for me.
[29:12]Do you know what I mean?
[29:12]Like I don't, yeah, I just wanted to be honest on what you do
[29:17]and the exposure you have and the conversations you have
[29:22]thought if there were things that came to mind.
[29:25]And you know, I'm just kind of pulling smart people
[29:29]for advice and guidance.
[29:32]I love that.
[29:34]I totally get it.
[29:35]I wasn't misinterpreting or, you know,
[29:37]thinking anything at all.
[29:39]I was, you know, let me get emailing about you
[29:43]and see what I can do.
[29:47]And, you know, if you want to write something for Zibi Mag
[29:50]also, you know, no Mother's Day is coming up.
[29:52]Well, I would love, I will tell you.
[29:54]And I just had not had time to pitch.
[29:57]I did a lot of stuff for Oprah daily over the last time.
[30:00]few years. And my newest idea that I'm really stuck on is that women have to learn how to
[30:06]mother themselves. And not only did I lose my daughter, I lost my mom when I was 24. My mom was
[30:13]50 and died in aneurysm. And three months later, her mom died of cancer. So like, gee, I was totally
[30:21]cut off of that feminine chain. And so I think there's something about, you know, the put your
[30:27]oxygen mask on first thing and how women mother stays complicated, right? Whether you wanted
[30:34]kids and don't have them, whether you have kids and don't feel like you're the mom, you should be
[30:38]whether you have a complicated relationship with your mom name it, right? It's just a super complicated
[30:43]time that really brings up emotions for people because it's one of those holidays that
[30:49]we've manufactured and we've manufactured the idea around what the perfect mother relationship is.
[30:55]And so I think there's something empowering around the idea of women learning to mother themselves
[31:01]that could be an interesting piece. Great. Okay. Let me connect you with all the people who can help
[31:08]at least in my little world here. So that's awesome. And if you decide this is not podcast material,
[31:15]then I'm fine with that. If you decide at some point down the road, let's like set up a time to
[31:20]actually do a podcast. I'm fine with that. I saw the record like the whole time. I'm coming from
[31:26]a world of TV. So, you know, think about what makes sense for you and your work. And if it's using
[31:33]parts of this great, if it's not fine, if it's doing it another time, you know, I don't have any
[31:40]expectations there. Okay. Amazing. Okay. Thank you so much. All right. Great to connect. All right.
[31:47]Bye. All right. Have a good day. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms. Don't
[31:52]have time to read books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms. Don't
[31:57]have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual
[32:02]book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan
[32:07]at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing
[32:12]this fantastic intro and outro music.