Jillian Abby, PERFECTLY QUEER: Facing Big Fears, Living Hard Truths, and Loving Myself Fully Out of the Closet
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30-minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
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[0:21]memoir.
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[0:32]That's at zippymag.com.
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[1:03]Jillian Abby is the author of perfectly queer, facing big fears, living hard truths, and
[1:08]loving myself fully out of the closet.
[1:10]This, by the way, was on my Good Morning America top 15 books when I picked them in that
[1:16]article.
[1:17]Jillian has mastered reinvention through her life to create the most whole and satisfying
[1:21]journey.
[1:22]She left the comfort of her hometown of Buffalo, New York to study abroad in Kacham Bamba,
[1:28]Bolivia at age 15.
[1:30]As an adult, her resume includes certified public accountant, licensed massage therapist,
[1:36]craft beer bar owner, creative copywriter, homeschooling parent, and black belt, martial artist.
[1:42]Her most recent role as a newly out lesbian and advocate for the LGBTQ plus community was
[1:48]by far her riskiest and most rewarding change.
[1:51]In addition to her debut memoir, perfectly queer from Hay House Publishing, she serves as
[1:55]a board member for the nonprofit Tampa homeschool inclusive events, and is a member of
[1:59]Tampa's LGBT Chamber of Commerce.
[2:02]She supports others through her blog site, QueerAbby.com, via TikTok at Ask QueerAbby,
[2:08]and on her podcast, Life and Love in the Cube.
[2:11]Jillian lives in Tampa Bay with her partner Jen, their wildly wacky children, Sophie
[2:16]and Ollie, and a rescue cat named Po.
[2:18]Welcome, Jillian.
[2:19]Thanks so much for coming on Momstone.
[2:21]Have time to read books to discuss your memoir perfectly queer and all the other amazing
[2:25]things you're doing.
[2:26]Thanks so much for having me today.
[2:28]I'm so excited to hang out with my new friend, Zippy.
[2:31]I'm excited too.
[2:33]Okay, huge life change.
[2:36]Tell everybody about what happened, how you decided to change your life completely, and
[2:43]as a mom, and just the host, give us the host story.
[2:47]Sure.
[2:48]Okay, so very high level.
[2:49]The story is about me coming out as a lesbian at 38 years old in a cranio sacral therapy
[2:54]session.
[2:55]Not really, there's so much more to the book than that, and the reason why it's called
[2:59]perfectly queer is because I'm also a recovering perfectionist.
[3:03]People please are trying to do everything that I was supposed to do in life.
[3:09]So the story kind of follows my journey of that always searching and seeking for the thing
[3:15]that was missing in my life.
[3:18]It's interesting because I've read your memoir bookends, and there are so many similarities
[3:26]not necessarily so much in our lives.
[3:28]Obviously, there's a big gay, straight difference, but you had a line your book where
[3:32]you said, I knew I should be happy, and that hit me to my core because I think that's
[3:38]a key message to my book too, is that we can feel like we're doing everything right.
[3:44]We can feel like everything seems so aligned in our life and still feel empty or still
[3:52]be looking for like where is that fire, where is that excitement, what am I supposed
[3:56]to be doing here?
[3:58]So my story, there's a lot of different reasons behind it.
[4:01]It is a love note to the queer community and everything they've gone through in so many
[4:06]ways that I never realized until I came out, but it's also just kind of a hug to anyone
[4:12]out there where life isn't feeling as full as it should.
[4:15]I love that.
[4:18]Thank you for quoting my own book to me.
[4:20]That was lovely and quite unexpected.
[4:23]There's so many highlights, I was like, wait, she used to use Splenda on her cucumbers
[4:28]and I used that in my coffee and me loosing our hair.
[4:32]Anyways, there's like strange similarities to the book, but it's true back in my weight
[4:40]watchers days.
[4:41]I was like, this will save points and keep me full for 2.4 hours and then I can get
[4:45]to my next meal and have another like 5 calories and they're saying very embarrassing.
[4:51]Relatable points though.
[4:52]It's a relatable point.
[4:54]Yeah, even the same age, I was 38, I feel like it was my 30, I mean, I don't know.
[4:58]I feel like it's a point in your life where you're like, okay, I see where my life is.
[5:03]Yes.
[5:04]Okay.
[5:05]So this is it.
[5:06]Like, is this, but wait, I have so many more years.
[5:10]Now what do I do?
[5:11]Yeah, I, you know, everyone talks about their life purpose and their goal here on earth
[5:19]and, and I felt like for so much of my life, I was desperately seeking that purpose.
[5:24]Like, why don't I have a purpose?
[5:26]Why don't I have a passion?
[5:27]I should know this by now and my book talks about my kind of twisty, turny career path
[5:33]from a certified public accountant on the line to then a licensed massage therapist
[5:39]to then a homeschooling mom to a craft to be her bar owner.
[5:43]And now I'm an executive storyteller for corporate executives.
[5:47]So I don't know.
[5:49]You know, in some ways, I always felt I was kind of ashamed of my path because I, I thought
[5:56]I could never commit to anything.
[5:57]I was always looking from my thing and then I realized how all of those bread crumbs
[6:02]now have led me to such a frickin' awesome life.
[6:07]So that's all I can say is like, I'm just, I'm so content in where I am.
[6:13]But I realized that I couldn't force it.
[6:15]I had to just let it happen and not always know where it was going or why it was happening.
[6:20]Yep.
[6:21]So, you know, that's what I always say is like my big advice, like this will all make
[6:25]sense later.
[6:26]Right.
[6:27]You know, because it certainly wasn't making sense at the time.
[6:28]And I'm like, I don't have a clear story, like my resume, I see, I see why it all connects
[6:36]or like, you know, you can go through your own experiences.
[6:38]And by the way, like having all those incredible experiences, like any time I read someone's
[6:45]resume or buy it or whatever, and I'm like, oh my gosh, well, that is an interesting person.
[6:50]I mean, like, like, wow, I can't wait to talk to that person because so cool.
[6:56]Like all those different things, you know, because that's what makes life interesting
[6:59]them.
[7:00]That's what makes people interesting people, right?
[7:02]Having all these.
[7:03]Anyway.
[7:04]Yeah.
[7:05]No, I love that you see the adjective interesting because usually I get like, well, that's
[7:08]weird, but you know, weird is not a bad word in our household either.
[7:12]So, you know, it's just it's a different way.
[7:15]It's just different.
[7:16]That's what works for me.
[7:18]So, but coming to this realization yourself with kids, I feel like that's the other thing.
[7:22]It's like, we're not doing this in a vacuum anymore when you have children and like these
[7:27]big life changes.
[7:28]Like, how do you, you know, talk a little bit more about your decisions and your kids
[7:36]and your, like, and how people should handle that.
[7:39]And I know you, by the way, it's like amazing podcast and you're a little, and you're
[7:43]a dick dog.
[7:44]You can't wait.
[7:45]You're answering all questions just like this, which is amazing, you know.
[7:48]So yeah, kids talk about it.
[7:51]Yeah.
[7:52]So kids were obviously one of my biggest concerns.
[7:54]I have two kiddos and at the time that I came out, they were six and nine years old.
[7:58]and so understanding, you know, I know there's so much talk about now about how topics
[8:03]of the LGBTQ are not appropriate for kids or they can't understand it.
[8:08]But really, I mean, from in utero babies understand love and that's really what it comes
[8:15]down to.
[8:16]It's not a sexual thing.
[8:17]It's who I love.
[8:18]It's who I want to spend my life with and, but anyways, so when it came to my kids though
[8:26]and making this decision, it was really challenging because I think especially as mothers,
[8:31]we are told to put our families first and others first.
[8:35]And so coming out felt like an incredibly selfish decision on my part.
[8:40]And what really flipped things for me, and I talk about it in the book is that I spoke
[8:46]with a therapist and she said, fast forward a few years, if your daughter were going
[8:52]through the same thing right now.
[8:55]And she came to you and asked for your advice, what would you tell her?
[8:58]And I was like, of course, I would tell her to be honest and truthful and do what she
[9:02]needed to do.
[9:03]I wouldn't want her to continue falling into this mental and physical health crisis.
[9:11]And you know, I just wanted to be happy.
[9:15]And then I had to sit there and marinate in the old juices of myself realization and say,
[9:20]oh, okay, well, maybe I need to do the same.
[9:24]if I'm setting the example for them, then I need to lead by example and not just say,
[9:30]this works for you, but not for me.
[9:34]So that was a big thing for me to realize that it would be okay.
[9:38]It would be hard.
[9:39]I mean, divorce even in the most easy circumstances is hard because it's change, changes
[9:44]hard, but we navigated through that and in such a better place now and it's made me
[9:51]such a better mom because I'm so much more available to them.
[9:55]I have so much more love to give them.
[9:58]Yeah, totally understand that.
[10:00]And they had no qualms about me being a lesbian.
[10:07]You know, when I told my children, my son said, what's a lego bin?
[10:11]So I had to explain a little bit more about just, you know, the people that we are attracted to who want to marry for me.
[10:20]That's a woman and not a man. And I still love your dad very much.
[10:23]She's a wonderful person, but I love him in a different way.
[10:27]That doesn't mean that we should be married to each other.
[10:30]And they got it.
[10:31]Yep. So kids are pretty great.
[10:34]Sure are.
[10:35]Yeah.
[10:36]And all this stuff.
[10:37]Oh, yeah.
[10:38]How do you manage perfectionism?
[10:40]Oh, goodness.
[10:43]Well, so I do have a fabulous life coach Gina Giraldi that I go to.
[10:48]And she is always helping me reframe.
[10:51]Anytime I start to fall into those perfectionist traps of I'm not doing enough. It's not perfect.
[10:59]Because then I end up not doing it all. Like if I can't do it absolutely perfect. This book.
[11:04]Almost didn't come to be because as I was writing my book proposal, it wasn't perfect. And so I gave up on it.
[11:13]And she beautifully reframed things for me and said, do you have time to write an A book proposal and I said no.
[11:21]And she said, OK, well, if you don't submit, you get an F.
[11:24]Which to a perfectionist is like that is the button you needed to hit to motivate me to keep going. And so it's something I still work on.
[11:34]It's not an easy fix. But I think every time I have an example of not being perfect and still just doing it.
[11:42]And it working out. It's the, it's the reminder in the lesson that it doesn't have to be OK. You just have to do.
[11:50]And I, yeah, there's so many messages that I've sent that, you know, I'll notice a typo later and it makes me lose my mind because I'm like, I'm a writer and this should be perfect.
[12:01]And then it's like, yeah, but you wouldn't that communication wouldn't have even gone out the door if you overthought it so many times. So.
[12:11]Yes, I relate to this. I need to be fine.
[12:15]No, I do catch myself. So the same thing as you, though, because, you know, I'm like, oh, this newsletter, you know, it's something it right.
[12:23]It's just like I can make this better. I could be better. Better. It could be better.
[12:28]But it's not going to be.
[12:31]Right. It's going to be good enough.
[12:34]It's not going to be.
[12:35]It's not going to be exactly.
[12:37]And I've realized it's kind of why I've loved exploring TikTok as a platform because the TikTok is like the anti-perfect.
[12:45]The more raw and real your video is the more people seem to connect with it. And then I was like, you know what, this is kind of nice and the more.
[12:54]Honest, I am. It doesn't matter what my hair looks like. It doesn't matter if I have makeup on or not. It's about the story and the connection.
[13:01]And so I just need to keep showing up for that instead of creating the most polished videos.
[13:07]How often are you posting to TikTok?
[13:10]You know, I go in waves. I feel like I need to hibernate and retreat sometimes. Now I try and post once a day to TikTok for a while. I was doing three times a day.
[13:21]And it feels good until it doesn't feel good. And depending on what side of TikTok you land on.
[13:29]It can become a very toxic space. And so I've also had to kind of give myself permission to step away when it didn't feel good.
[13:39]And know that I could come back to it. Which I think is, I mean, we don't always have the ability to do that in life.
[13:46]But recognize it when it's starting to really impact us and our health or our hearts or how we're approaching the world.
[13:54]You know, yes, did I lose some engagement on my platform? Absolutely. But was it worth it for my mental sanity?
[14:02]Well, it's really great in the way you've built the platform up and the honest answers and, you know, all of it.
[14:11]It's what you've taken like your life. It's like you've taken inspiration to the next level by putting it in all these different formats.
[14:19]And I love your what's it called love and life in the queue or something. Oh, yeah. Life and love in the queue. Life and love in the queue, which is so awesome.
[14:26]And even like your music is awesome. And you're co-host.
[14:30]You said she felt like Nostradamus at getting an early copy of your book, which I love.
[14:35]I feel like somebody should claim like at Nostradamus or something.
[14:38]But anyway, you were like, and this little thing I do on TikTok. And I'm like, what is she do on TikTok?
[14:43]I make weirdness. It's so funny now too, because, you know, again, I'm.
[14:49]And every day, mom, here in the suburbs of Tampa Bay, launching my first ever book. I have no idea what I'm doing here and trying to figure it out.
[14:58]And so I was making it. I just got my books, the paper back in the mail yesterday. And so I was so excited and crying like face off and starting to make some videos for TikTok.
[15:10]Let's capture these magical moments. And of course, my kids will want in on it. And so they've taken over as my PR team.
[15:18]The videos are hilarious. I don't know that they'll sell books, but they sure are entertaining. So those will be coming down the pipeline soon.
[15:26]I mean, there's just going to chances any for those to somebody who knows that. I mean, I think there's no formula anymore. And that's why I so let like even the bookstore that you opened.
[15:39]It's an unconventional approach in a different approach, even how you categorize the books and how the spaces use. And it's like, yes, we don't always have to keep doing the same thing that we've always done.
[15:51]Why not create a new way. So now I'm exploring the new way of give a 13 year old your camera and see what magic happens.
[16:00]Oh my gosh, I love it. Do you have any fears like launching your book into the world? Do you like ever lay awake at night and be like, Oh my gosh, it's, you know, the train is out of the station.
[16:13]Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, so the really cool thing is that we've just passed the two year anniversary of where I made a YouTube video.
[16:22]And I said, I wrote a book and here's the first chapter. And that was actually kind of my public coming out because also I had only told a few people in my life at that point.
[16:32]And I received such beautiful and wonderful feedback that that said to me, okay, your story has value and there's people beyond just the seven women who have come out as gay later in life.
[16:46]There's more people out there who may be interested in the story.
[16:49]And so I kept writing, but it's a constant. I think with writing a memoir, there's a lot of fear about how to tell your story when you also have to bring other characters up on stage.
[17:01]I can't tell my story without my mom.
[17:04]For me, I can't tell my story without my ex husband without my children without my friends without ex girlfriends. Oh my gosh.
[17:14]Is fear around that. I wanted to do them justice. I wanted to make sure that I was telling the story from the view of an observer and not from the emotional places.
[17:26]And so, you know, what my hurts that I felt in the moment. But yeah, and now we are, you know, the book comes out is out April 25 and I'm amazed at all of the emotions I feel.
[17:40]I feel like I'm at the top of the roller coaster where you just start to drop.
[17:44]And so I'm just kind of holding space for all of it and trying to be really gentle with myself and soak up the fact that this is like a once in a lifetime thing. I mean, hopefully more more in a lifetime, but for now, I know it's the once in a lifetime thing and just really like experiencing each moment as it comes.
[18:14]But it's a lot.
[18:17]That sounds like you're in the right headspace and the whole thing.
[18:21]I'm trying. Do you want to write more? Oh, yeah.
[18:25]I don't want to write about the same stuff different. Like do you ever think about fiction? Like, tell me your whole thing.
[18:31]I don't know about fiction, but so interestingly enough, the book that keeps popping up in my brain is I want to write a book about sex and women and comfort with sex and the funny part of that is I am so wildly uncomfortable with talking about sex.
[18:51]So that's why every time this idea pops up, I'm like, no, why, why do you want to be birds from my computer not somebody else's, but I also feel like through my own learning and exploration with that and speaking to other people and hearing their stories and experiences.
[19:08]So that's why people help me become more comfortable with it. In the same way that perfectly queer helped me become more comfortable with my queerness. I didn't realize the biases that I still held in the learning I still had to do.
[19:25]I use writing personally as my own tool of self growth and self reflection. And so I do see, you know, possibly books more about perfectionism or my podcast cohost, she has her PhD in family identities and we talk about resilient families and what that looks like when families have to go through difficult things are hard changes and how we can navigate those hard times in the most loving graceful way possible.
[19:52]So there's all these little sprouts popping up. I don't know what will be next, but I'm totally hooked now. I enjoyed
[20:00]the writing process so much that I'm almost a little sad that it's over with this
[20:04]book and so I'm like, we need to do this again. How do I do this again? Yeah.
[20:11]Well, I mean, perfectionism alone, there's so many people who can relate to that. I read a book
[20:17]recently on Perfectionism by Katherine J. Creth and something Shafer. Get a name around. Anyway,
[20:24]I like, I'm gonna start crying in the interaction because I was like, oh, like, that's me.
[20:30]Oh, yeah. Like, I'll find it and send you a copy after this. But there was also a woman I
[20:36]interviewed years ago, like towards the beginning of the podcast. And she had a whole concept for
[20:42]time management, which is, I think, applicable to perfectionism about mod, max, min. And for
[20:49]every task, it's like, do I want to put the maximum effort into this, a moderate amount of effort
[20:54]or the minimum amount of effort? But like, you get to decide. Like, do I want custom invitations
[21:00]for this birthday party? Or can I have like the trampoline place sending email? Do you have
[21:06]it like something like that? But like, you always have the choice. So I don't know. For me,
[21:10]that really helped me. And it's such a simple concept that I remember. So I'm like, okay,
[21:16]do I want to spend my maximum effort? Yeah. No, that makes total sense. Because I think in
[21:20]perfectionism, we forget that we have options. Yeah. Like, we're so laser focused on this is the
[21:25]right way to do it. And it's like, well, actually, yeah, there are other choices you have. So I love
[21:31]that. That's great. In coming out at 38, did you find a community of others who have come out to
[21:40]the same life stage? Like, I know you joke that there are only seven people. But did you like,
[21:44]is there a face? Like, how did you get in touch with more people or did you get in touch with more
[21:49]people at a similar sort of timeline? I did, but not until a little bit later in my coming out process
[21:57]at the beginning. And don't ask me why this is where my brain went and why I didn't think to make
[22:03]use of the internet. But when I first came out, the only person I could think of who was in a
[22:10]heterosexual marriage and then was so comfortable in their queerness was Elton John. And so my mantra
[22:18]mantra was like, it's me and Sir Elton. Like, that is the person I feel like I relate to most in
[22:24]this moment, which I know is absolutely absurd. But that's where my head was at. But through time,
[22:29]as I came out, I realized aside from the TikTok lesbian community, there are so many supportive
[22:36]Facebook groups, there are so many podcasts out there. And then even our local community, like,
[22:41]I joined our LGBT Chamber of Commerce here in Tampa Bay. And we have different community
[22:47]centers that are so supportive. I read as many queer stories and history books as possible to
[22:54]feel less lonely in the process. Because sometimes when we go through things, we can feel like
[22:59]we're the only one. And that's why I was wondering too, even with your book. Like, when you met
[23:04]Kyle, did you have a frame of, I'm sorry, no, we're not supposed to turn around in your book,
[23:09]but I'm just like, sometimes when you go through those things and you can feel like, well, this is not
[23:14]what's happening to everyone else. Like, this is unique to me. And it's really not necessarily
[23:20]that unique of an experience once you start sharing it. So I have found a wonderful community.
[23:26]It's been absolutely amazing. And I almost daily, I will get a message from someone
[23:32]somewhere around the world who says, I found you, I'm still in the closet or I've just come out
[23:39]or wherever they are in their process. And thank you for being a support. Thank you for showing
[23:46]me that it's okay or that it will be okay. Thank you for acknowledging that this is hard or this is
[23:51]confusing or that's okay to question ourselves if what we're feeling is real or if what we're doing
[23:57]is right. I think it's beautiful that we can have these real honest conversations. I'm really
[24:05]grateful for all the platforms we have now to connect with each other. It's funny, before this
[24:10]podcast, I was doing Brian Selznick, you know, he has read Big Tree. And I mean, he's a guest
[24:16]a children's book author, but I'll throw it the Hugo Cabre, which is made it to that movie. And
[24:21]anyway, he was saying he came out in his late 20s. And that felt very old to him. He's a
[24:27]little bit older now than you are. And just how the rise in book banning and all the stuff going on
[24:34]suggesting that this is something that like you could pick up from a book, you know, like,
[24:39]right, you know, and he's like, if you're of a certain age, you know, it's not exactly, this wasn't
[24:44]exactly something really, they don't make it enticing to, you know, there was so much against it.
[24:51]Right. And honestly, that was part of the reason of writing my story is because when
[24:57]when I came out later in life, the first thing that so many people went to is midlife crisis.
[25:03]You're bored in your marriage. Right. And the reality is that I struggled with
[25:10]trying to determine who I was, what I was feeling. I tried to locate myself in society and it wasn't
[25:18]always easy, especially, you know, as a kid or as a teenager to to even know that that was an
[25:27]option. I hate to say that because I knew I always knew that gay people existed, but I didn't
[25:33]meet my first out lesbian until I was 24 years old because so many people felt like they had to
[25:38]hide for their own safety. So meeting that person, it was like, light bulb went off and I went,
[25:44]oh my gosh, oh no, like this is a thing. People do this and they're happy. And that was not the
[25:51]story I had been told either. It is not as easy as opening the closet door. There's a lot of
[25:56]layers to it. And so if nothing else, I'm not trying to change anyone's beliefs, but maybe just a little
[26:04]bit more understanding that there's so many layers to this. It is so complicated and
[26:10]you know, it's complicated. There's a lot of complication. But your back will be a source of
[26:19]refuge and inspiration for so many different types of life change. And yeah, just like it can be done.
[26:26]Yes, you know, it can be done. You can admit what you feel. You can change your life. You can
[26:33]be accepted. You can be happy. And that you're not stuck. You're not stuck. And also I encourage
[26:39]people to look at and what happens if you don't change. I think that's one thing that we don't
[26:44]talk about a lot is when we are faced with a difficult decision. Yep. And we do have the choice
[26:50]to change or not. You know, what would my life be like if I didn't come out? What if I had
[26:58]only come out to my now ex-husband? Yep. But we made the decision to kind of keep that
[27:05]under wraps. What would our life be like, you know, in the next 20, 30 years? So there's a lot
[27:14]more. I think the conversation is so much broader than sometimes we give it credit for. And so
[27:18]if nothing else, I hope it just sparks maybe a little bit of different perspective.
[27:23]I love it. On the writing process, what advice did you have for aspiring authors?
[27:29]Oh, goodness. I loved it so much. So I sat a routine for myself. I would wake up an hour before
[27:38]the kids got up. And that was like my time. And it was precious time to me. But a lot of my writing
[27:43]I did in a notebook because there was something about putting it on the computer that's
[27:47]felt like it was more permanent. And so writing in a notebook for me was free flow. I was
[27:53]allowed to write what I wanted to. I could cross out what I wanted to. And it had the permission
[27:59]to change. So I felt like ideas flowed a lot more fluidly. And also my entire book was written
[28:08]asynchronously. As the memories came to me, as I felt inspired to write, I wrote it. And then
[28:14]I used the Scribner program because it was really easy for me to drop all of my chapters and ideas
[28:20]in and then reorder them later. And then the last piece is not everything needs to be shared.
[28:26]I think I had over 50 chapters total and we whittled it down to about 30 or so. Don't let that
[28:33]overwhelm you. It's like a page and I have for two pages each chapter. Tiny little snack size bites.
[28:39]At first, I thought I had to include every single detail and not everything needs to be known.
[28:45]So that's a really good advice. Are you reading anything right now? Oh gosh, all the things. Well,
[28:51]so I just finished Big Magic by Liz Gilbert, the audiobook because I needed some creative support
[28:58]there in this verthing of this book. I'm reading Hugh Ryan's. I have the Women's House of Detention
[29:03]here on my nightstand right now. And when else I read Ashes Frost, you are the medicine
[29:11]once every month because it's broken down into monthly moon cycles. I don't know if you're like
[29:16]this too, but I have like eight books going at all times and just kind of pick up what I need based
[29:23]on the mood. I, yes, I guess. Moms don't have time to read books, but they figure out how to read
[29:31]eight books at one time. I don't know. So yeah. Amazing. Jillian, thank you so much for the chat.
[29:39]It's a nice to be new friends and to help our fans cross in person soon. Awesome. Thank you so
[29:45]much. That'd be a pretty great. Thanks a lot. Okay. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't
[29:51]Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zuby Owens and at Moms Don't
[29:56]Have Time to Read Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zuby.
[30:00]Zibioins.com and sign up for my virtual book club
[30:02]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[30:05]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[30:07]for the Sound Editing.
[30:09]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[30:10]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.