Karin Lin-Greenberg, YOU ARE HERE
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:04]Karen Lynn Greenberg is the author of You Are Here, a novel.
[1:07]Karen is the author of the short story collections, Faulty Predictions, which won the
[1:10]Flannery O'Connor Award for Short Fiction and Vanished, which won the Prairie Shunur Book
[1:16]Prize.
[1:17]Her novel You Are Here came out from Counterpoint Press.
[1:20]She lives in upstate New York and is an associate professor in the English department at
[1:23]Sienna College, where she teaches creative writing.
[1:26]Welcome, Karen.
[1:27]Thanks so much for coming.
[1:28]And momstone him time to read books to discuss.
[1:30]You are here.
[1:31]Thanks so much for having me on to me.
[1:33]I am sort of like notorious with my team for not noticing things on covers.
[1:37]And I just having looked at this cover 8,000 times over what months have just noticed
[1:42]that there is a woman on an escalator behind this pattern.
[1:46]Yes.
[1:47]It's just a design.
[1:48]That's so cool.
[1:49]Yeah.
[1:50]It's very cool.
[1:51]I just actually just saw the cover from the audio.
[1:53]And you see more of the escalator, more of the bottom and the top.
[1:56]And I was like, this is so cool.
[1:58]I love that book cover design.
[2:00]I think they did a really great job with it.
[2:02]Wow.
[2:03]That's amazing.
[2:04]Really amazing.
[2:05]Um, okay.
[2:06]And the story was amazing too.
[2:07]I first probably love the whole thing.
[2:09]It's like a novel set of characters in the mall and intersecting the lives, but then this
[2:13]goes so much deeper and through tragedy and aging and loss and like everything.
[2:19]It is.
[2:20]Wow.
[2:21]So anyway.
[2:22]Thank you.
[2:23]Where did the inspiration for the book come and tell listeners what it's about?
[2:25]Yeah.
[2:26]As soon as you said, it centers on a dying shopping mall and it takes place in the 10 months
[2:30]leading up to the closing of the mall.
[2:33]And there are five point of view characters and there are lives all intersect with them
[2:37]all in some way.
[2:38]So there's a nine year old boy who is the son of a hairstylist in the mall.
[2:43]She's the only hairstylist left in the mall salon.
[2:46]And he comes to the mall every day after school while she's working and he is fighting
[2:50]a secret from his mom, which is that he wants to be a magician and he's practicing magic
[2:54]and learning magic tricks on YouTube.
[2:57]His mom, as I said, is the lone hairstylist in the mall.
[3:01]She's hiding a secret from her son, which is that she wants to illustrate children's
[3:04]books.
[3:05]There's the third character is a woman named bro who is 90 years old and she comes every
[3:11]week to get her hairstyled and she doesn't really need this, but it's a way to connect
[3:15]with people.
[3:16]The mall is really the place where she goes and gets to talk to people.
[3:19]There is a teenager who works in the food court who has aspirations of being an actor and
[3:25]just really wants to get out of there.
[3:27]And then there is a failed PhD student who is the manager of the mall bookstore and kind
[3:35]of dragging his feet on what to do with his academic career.
[3:38]So all five of them come to the mall for different reasons.
[3:42]And then when they find out the mall is closing, they have to think about what's the next step,
[3:46]what's going to happen after in their lives.
[3:49]I love when the boy I'm really bad with names.
[3:52]What is his name again?
[3:54]Jackson.
[3:55]Yeah.
[3:56]Yeah.
[3:57]So when Jackson talks to his mom about that, he's like, well, what if you don't leave?
[4:01]What if you just stay here and refuse to go?
[4:03]And like, I've seen it on YouTube, you can just handcuff yourself to the store basically.
[4:07]And she's like, oh, no, you have to really care about the place to do that.
[4:11]Right.
[4:12]And he's like, you don't care about it.
[4:13]And she's like, I can't be a hairstylist anywhere.
[4:15]And he's like devastated by this.
[4:17]Yeah.
[4:18]Yeah.
[4:19]I just like the different relationships they have to this place and just his idea of, well,
[4:22]how is our life?
[4:24]If you don't have this job, you know, and so yeah, like, yeah, handcuff yourself to this
[4:28]mall that nobody cares about anymore.
[4:30]So you just thinks, you know, this is totally ludicrous.
[4:33]Yeah.
[4:34]And even when you have like the new architecture, whatever he is, new developer of the
[4:38]place, trying to figure it out and, you know, thinking, or is he going to have apartments,
[4:42]or is it going to be another mall?
[4:43]And I feel like Jackson was just like, Jackson, right?
[4:46]Yeah.
[4:47]You got it.
[4:48]You got it.
[4:49]You got it.
[4:50]I'm sorry.
[4:51]I'm losing my mind today.
[4:52]You don't even know what it's going to be.
[4:54]Like, this whole thing is like, you know, he's like, well, what do you think?
[4:57]You know, we're figuring it out.
[4:58]Right.
[4:59]The idea that something that you love could be destroyed and replaced by a question mark,
[5:04]it's like so disheartening.
[5:05]Yeah.
[5:06]I feel like we have stores closing all the time, you know, like, it's gone.
[5:10]But what's there now?
[5:11]There's not even anything there.
[5:13]Right.
[5:14]Right.
[5:15]And I think too, you know, that character, you know, with kids, I think when you're a kid,
[5:17]you think adults have all the answers.
[5:18]And I think that's something for him that's confusing.
[5:21]It's just like, well, why don't you know, the next step you should.
[5:24]You're an adult, you know, so yeah, just like that, that confusion.
[5:27]And I think, I think as adults, we've come to embrace this idea that we often don't know,
[5:32]you know, we don't know the next step.
[5:33]And even our own lives, you know, I'm not even what that's going to be.
[5:37]But just what am I doing like after this year?
[5:40]Right.
[5:41]Right.
[5:42]Very true.
[5:43]And then you have Roe.
[5:44]And by the way, I used to be obsessed with, I mean, I still am obsessed with taking pictures
[5:49]and all that.
[5:50]But now it's on my phone.
[5:51]But I used to run to the one hour photo place all the time.
[5:54]In fact, my high school, I don't even know why I'm talking about this.
[5:58]Sorry.
[5:59]We'll get back to your back.
[6:00]But my high school graduation, we had the ceremony and it ended at like one.
[6:04]And then like everyone was meeting at four.
[6:06]And so I took a whole roll of film and I ran it to the one hour photo, got the photos
[6:11]back and brought them to dinner.
[6:13]And everyone's like, wait, how is that even possible?
[6:15]And I'm like, I'm going to the one hour photo place.
[6:16]It was really one hour.
[6:17]And people are like, what?
[6:18]It always takes like a day.
[6:20]Yeah.
[6:21]It was a drive through one.
[6:22]You've seen those.
[6:23]No, no.
[6:24]It was in New York City.
[6:25]It was like 70th or something, but yeah, I remember that so well and just like sitting
[6:29]on the couch.
[6:30]And then when you said doubles, I had actually forgotten that term that like I went
[6:34]doubles with like, oh my gosh.
[6:36]Anyway, like developing film.
[6:37]No.
[6:38]I think that's something I miss, you know, that you will be an envelope, but you don't
[6:41]know what's going to be in there.
[6:43]You don't know.
[6:44]And it can just be terrible blurred pictures.
[6:46]And you just, you know, the event is gone.
[6:48]So it's something that, yeah, for sure I miss that, you know, it's so easy now with
[6:53]your phone.
[6:54]But that, you know, opening the envelope and seeing what's there, I think that's those
[6:58]exciting.
[6:59]I mean, it's also those are, it's like how you remember everything, at least for
[7:03]me.
[7:04]I feel like if I have a picture, it brings all of it back.
[7:06]But if I forget to take a picture, I lose the pictures, you know, anyway.
[7:10]And just that, yeah, that sense of discovery you have in the book where it's like, well,
[7:15]you know, and having even to like research where to even get them, she's like, I don't
[7:18]even know where to even do this anymore.
[7:20]I was thinking the same thing.
[7:21]Like, does that exist?
[7:22]Yeah.
[7:23]I was thinking too, because you know, when I was writing it, I was thinking, when was the
[7:27]last time I saw a place that, you know, does, like, it used to be, you know, every drug store,
[7:32]but so I was walking around, I was thinking in the drug store.
[7:35]I don't think there's a place here anymore to do this.
[7:38]I think you can put your, your SIM card in.
[7:40]There's like a machine, but there's not a person.
[7:43]There's not somebody's job anymore to man that booth.
[7:46]So I think, yeah, just a big change, I guess.
[7:49]But of course, what it represents is sort of like, you know, a new entry point into someone's
[7:54]life and emotions and all of that that you can have one idea of someone.
[7:59]And then you see like a prior self, honestly, it's like a before her loss, before all
[8:04]this, her life changed and how do you reconcile these two totally disparate seeming
[8:09]people and like sort of synthesize all that information.
[8:12]Right.
[8:13]Yeah.
[8:14]It felt useful to me to try to figure out how are you going to get this characters
[8:17]past, you know, and she's not somebody who's going to talk about it.
[8:21]So it has to be something that is found, you know, so yeah, that's, that's, that's
[8:26]the solution I came up on.
[8:27]That is so cool.
[8:29]That's so cool.
[8:30]Huh.
[8:31]How did you arrive at the different characters?
[8:33]Like, did, and ended the idea itself for you wandering around the mall one day and we're
[8:36]like, yeah, no, I started it.
[8:38]I mean, I think I started with the first chapter, which started as a story.
[8:43]And I was just thinking of it as a standalone story, you know, I had started just a conversation
[8:49]I was getting with my haircut and the woman who's coming my hair was talking about getting
[8:54]scissors sharpened and how it used to be their people who would come to the salons and
[8:58]they'd do it.
[8:59]And that was their job.
[9:00]Nobody does this anymore.
[9:01]So I mean, there are a lot of things in this novel about how things used to be versus
[9:04]how they're now.
[9:05]And so you started talking about that and she said, you know, I have to send my scissors
[9:09]to Japan to get sharpened and that takes a long time.
[9:11]And then so I need a second pair and so I was just thinking about that.
[9:15]And then I just started thinking about, yeah, things that are gone and, you know, I remember
[9:18]when I was a grad student, I go get my hair cut in the mall and the salon was just gone
[9:23]one day, you know, okay, like, where am I going to go now?
[9:27]And so yeah, this, this idea of just, you know, things kind of disappearing.
[9:32]And so I just started that for story and then they got, they got published and, you know,
[9:37]I was thinking, maybe I can keep building because I had that character of Roe, the, the
[9:41]nine year old woman in that story and I thought, you know, she took somebody who comes
[9:45]in and that story.
[9:46]There's like a line in her too about her, you know, and Jackson, the, the young kid looks
[9:50]at her and just thinks about, you know, he doesn't want to ever be that old.
[9:53]And I thought, she's got to have a story, you know, and so I built on her and then I just
[9:57]kept building and thinking, you know, this isn't this place where
[10:00]people who would never otherwise interact
[10:02]would come together in some way and it's the small.
[10:05]So I just kept thinking what other stories
[10:07]could I build around these characters?
[10:10]And I started it with the idea that it would be a link stories.
[10:14]And then as I built the stories, I started thinking well,
[10:17]maybe it's not actually a link story collection,
[10:19]maybe it's a novel because there are certain things now
[10:21]that depend on knowing earlier things
[10:23]in order to understand it.
[10:25]So yeah, it started with one story
[10:26]and then just from there, where can I go with this?
[10:29]And then just building up this world.
[10:32]Well, that is literally what I thought.
[10:33]I read the first chapter now.
[10:34]And I started the second.
[10:35]I was like, oh, it's a different character.
[10:36]We're going to have a cold collection here of linked stories.
[10:38]But yeah, but then, of course, the big event
[10:41]that occurs that I don't want to give away or anything.
[10:43]Like when you see a lot of people interacting
[10:46]and it changes the narrative and the memories
[10:49]and people flashing forward, flashing back,
[10:52]like rethinking everything and having everybody all enmeshed
[10:57]in a way.
[10:58]Yeah, I mean, I guess without keeping it away,
[11:00]I think it's also this idea of an ending, right?
[11:03]And another ending and how we deal with endings,
[11:05]how we cope with endings, whether they are dramatic
[11:09]or undramatic.
[11:10]So that's kind of the second half.
[11:12]It's multiple endings to cope with for the characters.
[11:16]What endings are you working through yourself?
[11:18]I'm going to go on a limb and think
[11:20]that maybe you're sort of subconsciously working
[11:23]through your own ending of something.
[11:25]I don't know.
[11:26]Just thrown it out there.
[11:26]That's really interesting.
[11:28]I mean, I think, you know, that's really interesting.
[11:31]I mean, I think in the small ways, right?
[11:32]Like the things that we were just talking about, right?
[11:35]Like where am I going to get my hair cut now?
[11:37]Or like what if I wanted to take a role of photos
[11:40]on real film and things like that?
[11:42]But I think for me, you know, I teach.
[11:44]And so I had a lot of visiting jobs
[11:47]before I landed in the one where I am right now.
[11:50]And so I've actually been here where I am
[11:52]in Upstate New York outside of Albany for about 10 years now.
[11:56]and it feels really strange to me to not have an ending
[11:59]and to have a new start.
[12:00]Because for a lot of years, I'd work for a couple of years,
[12:03]pack up, move on, go to the next place.
[12:06]And so I think, like for me, the stranger thing
[12:10]is to not have things ending and starting all over again
[12:13]and having, you know, new place, new people to discover.
[12:16]So yeah, I think you're right.
[12:18]Probably like a lot of endings that I was thinking of
[12:20]while I was writing this.
[12:22]But now in sort of the strange position of,
[12:24]oh, I can stay for as long as I want.
[12:28]How did you get into writing to begin with and teaching?
[12:31]So yeah, writing was just something
[12:33]that I always loved doing.
[12:35]You know, I was just as a kid.
[12:37]You know, I liked writing and drawing.
[12:39]So I think I thought that I was maybe like sort of like
[12:42]Tina thought maybe I was like right
[12:43]and illustrate children's books.
[12:45]And then I got to college.
[12:46]And I just kept going with writing.
[12:49]Probably for like the silliest reason, you know,
[12:51]when you're 18, you make really dumb decisions sometimes,
[12:55]but there was a lottery for creative writing class.
[12:57]And it was like literally a lottery.
[12:58]It wasn't, you know, you submit a writing sample.
[13:01]So I signed up for an art class and a writing class.
[13:03]And I thought, well, if I'd get into this writing class,
[13:06]that's got to be like a sign in the heavens.
[13:08]And I got into the writing class.
[13:10]And again, lottery, right?
[13:12]It wasn't like the quality of my work.
[13:13]And I was just like, okay, I guess this is like
[13:16]the path I pursue.
[13:17]And so yeah, I was, you know,
[13:19]English major did a creative writing concentration.
[13:22]And after college I was working,
[13:23]I was actually teaching GED and adult ed classes.
[13:26]And then you know, realize that I liked teaching,
[13:29]but then I also realized that I really missed, you know,
[13:31]the like being in writing classes and being in a writing community.
[13:33]So it was, you know, taking continue ed classes
[13:36]and went back to school for writing.
[13:37]And then got my MFA.
[13:39]And then since then I've been teaching
[13:41]and I've been very fortunate to be able to teach creative writing.
[13:44]So I get to talk to young people about, you know,
[13:46]writing stories and poems and essays.
[13:49]So feel very, very lucky.
[13:51]That's awesome.
[13:52]Are you seeing any themes in the writing
[13:54]that's coming from to young people today?
[13:57]Yeah.
[13:58]I mean, you know, I was actually just talking
[13:59]to some colleagues about this, you know,
[14:00]such as very small schools.
[14:01]I teach all the creative writing classes.
[14:03]I teach in all genres.
[14:04]And you know, I've been seeing a lot of writing
[14:07]since the pandemic, especially about anxiety.
[14:10]And you know, and I don't know how to,
[14:14]I don't know what to do about that as a writing teacher,
[14:17]you know, I think, you know, always thinking,
[14:20]well, how do we make the best and most engaging essay?
[14:22]But I think it's really interesting to see
[14:23]how the pandemic has affected young people.
[14:27]And I think, you know, I mean, the students I'm dealing with,
[14:30]lots of essays about, you know,
[14:32]their last year or two of high school was at home
[14:35]or their first year of college was, you know,
[14:38]they're sitting in their dorm and they had to get a sign time
[14:41]for when they could come pick up their box
[14:43]that was filled with their dinner.
[14:44]And it was really hard to make friends.
[14:46]So of course, of course, you know,
[14:48]these students have a lot of anxiety.
[14:51]So I think I think that's been really just interesting
[14:54]to notice with students and I hope things get better.
[14:57]You know, I think they're getting a little bit better.
[15:00]And I think one of the things that's really interesting
[15:02]is I think students are really like seeking out connections,
[15:05]whether, you know, in classes or clubs or anything like that
[15:08]because they were deprived of it for a few years.
[15:11]So definitely something interesting
[15:12]that I think has emerged in some of the writing that I see
[15:15]and just, you know, just kind of understanding
[15:19]how incredibly difficult, you know,
[15:21]it is to be a young person right now
[15:23]and especially the last few years for sure.
[15:26]Yeah.
[15:27]Oh, I know I think of all my kids
[15:30]and I was just watching my son, my youngest son is eight
[15:34]and we were going through my photos as he always does.
[15:37]And we came across a video I didn't even know I had
[15:40]of his Zoom preschool graduation ceremony.
[15:44]And it was like so sad.
[15:46]It was just, there we all were around the computer
[15:49]wearing like this pretend paper hat we had made.
[15:51]And I don't know.
[15:52]Right.
[15:53]I was like, I don't believe that's how it was for him.
[15:55]I mean, he's fine.
[15:56]He's really good.
[15:56]Yeah.
[15:57]But knowing what it could have been.
[15:59]Right.
[15:59]It's kind of amazing to how resilient kids are too.
[16:03]I mean, just what a strange time we lived through.
[16:04]And yeah, a Zoom graduation, you know,
[16:06]and congratulations supposed to be this celebratory time
[16:09]where everyone's together and, you know,
[16:11]everyone's sitting in their little box on Zoom.
[16:13]It's strange, but yeah, same.
[16:17]So if you were teaching me how to write an essay for,
[16:22]say, let's like, what are some of the most important things?
[16:27]Or some of the things that like maybe authors
[16:29]who are listening might not expect
[16:31]that is part of your teaching.
[16:34]Yeah.
[16:34]So I mean, definitely like different things, different genres.
[16:36]I mean, I think I teach essay writing.
[16:39]I think one of the things for my students, especially,
[16:42]that readers don't know what they know.
[16:44]You know, I think this is one of the hardest things,
[16:46]especially even, you know, students who go from fiction writing
[16:49]to non-fiction writing, because fiction writing,
[16:50]obviously they're making up the world, right?
[16:52]And so they kind of feel like they have to put onto the page
[16:56]this world that they're creating, but in non-fiction,
[16:58]I find a lot of students kind of forget, you know,
[17:00]say things like who is this person you've been talking to
[17:02]for five pages, you know, like is this a relative?
[17:05]Is it like who is this, you know, things like that?
[17:08]And then something I've been working with,
[17:09]and this isn't saying that every essay needs to have it,
[17:11]but it's just scenes, you know, I think students oftentimes,
[17:15]especially coming from academic writing.
[17:16]I mean, this is something across all, you know, creative pros.
[17:20]Students just are not used to writing scenes
[17:22]with dialogue and action and description, you know,
[17:24]they're used to making arguments.
[17:26]And so, you know, it's like sensory details.
[17:29]And I say, you know, what did it smell like?
[17:31]You know, what did it feel like?
[17:32]Because it cold, is it hot, you know?
[17:34]So some of those things I think that, you know,
[17:36]when people are nudged, I think they can, you know,
[17:39]vividly, you know, fill out these scenes,
[17:42]but I think sometimes forget, especially moving from academic
[17:46]writing to creative writing.
[17:48]Interesting.
[17:49]I feel like one piece of advice I got that I love
[17:52]is like don't underestimate the reader.
[17:54]Yeah.
[17:55]Like I felt like it explained a little bit or whatever.
[17:58]And they're like, you can like jump 100 years
[18:00]and like they'll catch on.
[18:01]Right. Right.
[18:03]Yeah. One thing too, I think that's interesting.
[18:05]Yeah, like that sort of over explaining.
[18:06]And then I don't know where this comes from,
[18:09]but I find that a lot of times students want to give a moral
[18:11]at the end and so it's like, therefore, you know,
[18:14]from this experience, you need to, you know,
[18:17]appreciate your grandparents because they want to always be there.
[18:20]And it's like, oh, we get it.
[18:20]We get it, you know, from the story itself.
[18:23]So yeah, I think that goes to exactly what you're saying.
[18:26]Like readers will get it.
[18:27]Readers will put those things together.
[18:29]Yeah.
[18:30]So what is it like now having the book come out?
[18:35]I think it's exciting, you know, I had two story collections
[18:39]come out and they, you know, from, from university presses.
[18:42]And so I think probably fewer people got those books
[18:46]in their hands.
[18:47]So I think it's just exciting that people are interested
[18:51]in reading this book.
[18:52]And you know, it's interesting because a lot of people say
[18:53]to me, I don't like stories, but I like novels.
[18:56]And so just just the genre itself, I think,
[18:59]has gotten people more excited to read it.
[19:02]Yeah, I mean, again, I sort of, I sort of think of each chapter
[19:05]almost like a story, like sort of, you know,
[19:07]has like kind of a movement of a story.
[19:10]But yeah, it's just exciting that people are excited to read it
[19:13]and that, you know, I think, you know,
[19:15]my press has been doing just a great job of getting it
[19:18]into people's hands.
[19:19]And so I'm excited to hear what people think about it.
[19:23]And hopefully they like it.
[19:25]Yeah.
[19:26]Oh, that's so great.
[19:27]What's your favorite mall?
[19:28]My favorite mall, you know, it's interesting
[19:31]because it's like people think that like I may be a mall expert.
[19:36]And I feel like I'm not saying you're an expert.
[19:38]I'm just wondering.
[19:39]Yeah, I mean, you know, so I mean, I grew up in New Jersey.
[19:43]And so the mall that I would go to as a kid was in the short
[19:46]Hills Mall and I haven't been there in forever.
[19:50]And one of the things that's interesting.
[19:52]So yeah, I mean, I was actually thinking about, you know,
[19:53]sort of my mall experiences as of late.
[19:55]And I almost like never go to the mall anymore.
[19:57]I don't know if I should admit this.
[19:59]I mean, I usually
[20:00]find myself going if I have to bring my computer to the Apple store. And then so then I just
[20:05]walked around and just like what's going on. And I don't know if you've been to them all lately,
[20:09]but they've changed and they're really strange. They're like these entertainment centers now.
[20:15]You know, I went to my local mall and there were I think three escape rooms. And I was like,
[20:22]wow, why do you need so many escape rooms in a mall?
[20:25]That's amazing. I need to go there and take the kids and like there's like mini golf.
[20:30]There's just all this. Oh my gosh. Wow. It's like an entertainment center. And yeah, I was like,
[20:35]and then when we're the winter, I was driving. I was teaching in Pittsburgh at a low residency
[20:41]MFA and I was driving home and I stopped in a mall out there. And there was I don't know what
[20:44]they're called, but they're these like big round plastic balls that you can go in and roll around in.
[20:49]I don't know if you know what those are. And there was like a storefront that used to be a storefront
[20:53]that was filled with these big plastic balls that people could like roll around and like bump
[20:58]into their friends in. And I just thought like I just I just got out to like each restaurant like
[21:03]eggs and walk around. Yeah. Yeah. Malls have gotten really weird lately. Wow. Yeah. I actually,
[21:09]I did not grow up going to malls because I'm from New York City. So whenever I would occasionally
[21:13]go to a mall, I'm like, this is nuts. I can't believe this. All these stores like right here.
[21:17]But I did go. I took my kids who had I don't think ever been to a mall. We were dropping my
[21:23]son off somewhere. And he needed like an hour to like hang out with someone. And we were like,
[21:27]what are we going to do in white planes for an hour? So anyway, we went to the mall.
[21:31]And it was fantastic. We did. I was like, you guys, it's almost Christmas like nothing
[21:35]so because I was like, let's do all our holiday shopping now. And so we like raced around. It
[21:41]was so fun. But it was like, it was like an activity. It was like an activity. It was like an
[21:45]activity. And I mean, it sounds like you were with your family. But you know, I think about teenagers
[21:51]too. And malls being such a great place for them. Because you know, you can walk around. It's
[21:56]relatively safe. You know, you don't have to buy things. You can spend hours there. You can see
[22:00]your friends there. It's you know, so yeah, I mean, just just like a place. I think they're just kind
[22:05]of an interesting place to think about and to think about the reasons why people go to them.
[22:10]That's so funny. I've literally never thought about how convenient it would be as a parent
[22:15]to have a teenager at the mall. I've only thought about it as me, the teenager.
[22:19]Right. That's so funny. Or like other DNA. That's how that would be convenient.
[22:23]Well, maybe I'll just drive them on a way. Just drop them off.
[22:27]Don't be fine. Don't be fine. They'll figure it out. It could roll around with plastic balls,
[22:31]you know. Yeah, exactly. It sounds like no mini golfing. So what do you have another book coming
[22:38]up? What are you working on now? Are more stories? So I've been working on stories just here and
[22:42]there. And you know, I just I feel like that's that's kind of what I started doing as a writer.
[22:47]And so I feel weird if I'm not writing stories, but I'm also working on a new novel to
[22:53]and sort of in earlier stages of it and just trying to figure things out and kind of,
[22:58]you know, things are kind of messy right now and just like all these files in a big folder.
[23:04]And so it's not ready for other eyes yet, I guess. But yeah, definitely the idea of after writing
[23:10]this, you know, the idea of sustaining a longer narrative. I think it's been an interesting challenge
[23:14]for me coming from writing stories from for many years. That's cool. I like it. Well, I really
[23:21]love the idea. I'm always wondering about what's people's backstory. How do we all end up in the
[23:26]same place? Like where did everybody where were they before? What's their story in life? Like
[23:32]where are they going after? I don't know. I think about I used to exercise like back in the day.
[23:37]And I would like sit in the like spinning class and I'm like, what is where do they where
[23:41]why is she upset? Where'd she come from? Where's she going next? Right. No, those are those are the
[23:46]questions. I thought I I thought I was weird until I was like, oh, every every novel is things like
[23:51]that's exactly what's that story. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, well, Karen, thanks so much. This is really fun
[23:59]and congratulations on your book and best of luck with the launch and all that. Thank you. I really
[24:04]appreciate it. Okay. All right. Take care. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thanks. Thanks for listening to this
[24:11]episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at
[24:15]Zebioans and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at
[24:20]Zebioans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[24:25]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[24:29]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.