Lori Gottlieb, MAYBE YOU SHOULD TALK TO SOMEONE: A Therapist, Her Therapist, and Our Lives Revealed

[2:17]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. This thirty minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, three hundred and sixty five days a year for about thirty minutes. I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction and memoir. Our books are already out now. You can check it out on zippybooks.com. And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle features. That's at zippymag.com. We have classes at zippyclasses.com. And I recently opened a bookstore in LA called Zippy's Bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue at 11th Street in Santa Monica. I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings. But this Here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018, and no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing. Enjoy. This weekend I'm re releasing my episode with Laurie Gottlieb who I've gotten to know since this episode in LA and gotten to know the amazing work her son is doing to help other kids with their own mental health issues. Laurie's book was a massive success as you all know. Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. She's such a nice person. She came to the opening of Zippy's Bookshop and I thought you should all hear this episode in case you missed it. I'm excited to be interviewing Laurie Gottlieb today. Laurie is the author of the instant New York Times bestseller, Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, a therapist, her therapist, and Our Lives Revealed, which is currently being adapted into a TV series with Eva Longoria. She is a psychotherapist, a nationally recognized journalist, and the weekly Dear Therapist columnist for The Atlantic. Laurie started her career in the TV and film industry, went back to medical school, and then began her writing career before becoming a therapist. She has written hundreds of cover stories, features, profiles, more for The New York Times, The LA Times, The Washington Post, Time, Elle, O, the Oprah Magazine, Parents, Glamour, and many other publications. She's a frequent guest in the media, including on the Today Show, Good Morning America, the CBS Early Show, CNN, and NPR's Fresh Air. A graduate of Stanford University, She also attended Stanford Medical School and received a graduate degree in clinical psychology from Pepperdine University. She lives in Los Angeles. Welcome, Laurie. Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Well, thank you so much for having me. So can you please tell listeners what maybe you should talk to someone is about and what inspired you to write it? Yeah.

[4:50]Lori Gottlieb: So I wasn't originally supposed to be writing this book. I was supposed to be writing a book about happiness. Ironically, the happiness book was making me miserable and depressed. And it's it's not because there aren't great books about happiness out there. There are. It's that I was starting off as a therapist and I felt like the kind of book that I wanted to be writing was about what was going on in the therapy room, what was going on in people's lives. Happiness as a byproduct of living a certain kind of life is a great thing, but I didn't want to write a book about happiness as an end goal. And so every day I would try to sit down and write this book and I couldn't get myself to do it because it just felt really inauthentic given what I was doing, in the therapy room. And so eventually I canceled that book contract and I didn't think I would write another book or I had no idea what I would write. And then one day I just started writing about what was going on in my own therapy and what was going on, with me as a clinician. And I decided to just bring people behind the scenes into the therapy room. And that is what became maybe you should talk to someone. So we follow the stories of four very different patients as they're going through various struggles in their lives. And then I'm going through an upheaval in my own life and I become the patient and we've seen me go through my own therapy.

[6:23]Zibby Owens: It's so good. I just it's like your own memoir is, like, weaved in with all these great stories and all this sort of psychological insight for readers for their own lives. It was it's like the perfect combination. Anyway, I I loved it. Well, great. Yeah. No. That's what I was trying to do. I was I was really trying to help people to see something about themselves

[6:43]Lori Gottlieb: through other people's stories. I think it's so much easier to see something, to see our blind spots when they're reflected in what somebody else is doing. So far, I think the readers have said, I saw myself in every single one of these patients even though I'm very different from them on the surface.

[7:02]Zibby Owens: And I thought it was great how you talked in this book about that happiness book and how you were having such a hard time with it, you, like, didn't even wanna tell your therapist about it. And even the book before that, the one about the article about kids and how to keep kids in therapy. Exactly. Yeah. How you passed on that book deal and, like, hated yourself for it. So I it's, like, so, self deprecating in a way, but also relatable and great anyway.

[7:28]Lori Gottlieb: Well, when you turn in your first draft so I didn't know when I was writing this book that I was going to include all of that information. Right? Because with my story, I could pick and choose what I wanted to reveal. And so in the first draft, I just revealed it all because, first of all, I thought, well, this is the the book that's not commercial at all that no one's gonna read and but it's the book I feel like I have to write, so I can just be free to write whatever I want because three people are gonna read it. And, of course, that's not what happened. But I think that I really felt like I had to walk the walk, that I I had to show all of the pieces of me that maybe I would choose not to reveal because that's what my patients were doing. And I couldn't hold them to a certain standard and not meet that standard myself.

[8:12]Zibby Owens: So interesting. And you also talk about how you got to this stage of your career through sort of a series of of shifts or pivots as people are saying now all the time. So you started off when you were at NBC as a development executive before, you know, Friends and ER were first launching. And then you decided you didn't wanna do that. You end up in medical school after shadowing an ER doctor who you found fascinating for ER. Then you have a child, become a psychotherapist. So you basically and now you're, like, this amazing writer on top of it and best selling author. How do you think you had the emotional toughness and sort of sense of self to keep listening to what you really believed in through all these little transitions in life? Because I feel like some people just ignore those flashing lights to tell them that they are not not happy with what you're doing and and you listen to all of them. I did, and it's funny because in retrospect

[9:06]Lori Gottlieb: they sound like very disparate careers, but in retrospect they all have to do with story and the human condition. I think that it's not that I was switching from one very different thing to one completely unrelated thing, even though it looked that way at the time. I used to I used to always joke that I was either very versatile or very confused, and the reality is I'm not that versatile. You know, so I was really working in the same thing, which was story in the human condition. So when I was working at NBC, when we were telling those stories on ER, they were these very, very rich, emotionally laden, interesting stories, but they were fiction. When I went into a real ER with our consultant on the show, who was an ER physician, all of a sudden it was like, wow, this is the meaning of life right here. This is life and death, real life and death. People's lives are changing in millisecond because you don't end up in an ER if something wasn't a surprise. That was the world that I felt like I wanted to immerse myself in. I ended up going to medical school and when I was at medical school a lot of my professors were talking about managed care, this new thing at the time, and how it was going to be really hard for me to do this thing that I wanted to do, was really immerse myself in my patients' stories and lives and guide them throughout their lives. The system was not going to be set up for that kind of work in the same way and it would be harder. I really grappled with that. At the same time, I had been freelance writing to kind of support myself through, you know, this career change. And I ended up, deciding to leave to become a journalist where I could really immerse myself in people's stories, in real life stories. And then when I had a baby, I think, like a lot of new moms, I felt very isolated during the day. I felt like I needed other adults to talk to, and I needed, like, my professional identity back somehow. And so, you know, like, the UPS guy would come. I was always ordering diapers and Myriad baby supplies. And I would say things like, how about those diapers, and how's the weather? Do you have kids? And he would literally be afraid to you know, he'd, like, hope that I wasn't home, and he would, like, back away to his big ground truck. And I can see the fear in his eyes, and, you know, like, when someone's trying to avoid you. And and so I called up the dean at Stanford where I'd been in medical school, and I said, maybe I should come back and do psychiatry. She said, You're going to go through all this training. You have a newborn. You're going to then go through residency with a toddler. The work you want to do is not prescribing medication. The work you want to do is the deeper work, and you can do that with a graduate degree in clinical psychology. And it was the best advice that I had ever gotten. It was one of those moments where everything just kind of like, the last piece of the puzzle is now placed in it, and you're like, oh, that's the solution. And and I did that, and I I feel like I went from telling people stories as a journalist to helping people change their stories as a therapist because I feel like a lot of what I do in the therapy room is help people to rewrite these faulty narratives, rewrite these stories that they've been carrying around for so long that are holding them back. I think I was similarly

[12:33]Zibby Owens: stalking of my UPS guy as when my twins were really little because my son ended up dressing up as the UPS man for Halloween. I'm like, I think I am ordering online too many times. Yeah. Well, speaking of of, you know, helping your patients change their stories, one of your patients who is battling cancer at the outset gets upset when a friend of hers gives her advice, which is this story about Holland, going to Holland versus going to Italy. And I thought that was so relevant. I was hoping you could tell listeners the story, and then I wanted to know what your trip to Italy and life would have been. And are you there? Are you in Holland? Oh, I love this story. It's not my story. Should say it's Elizabeth Pearl Kingsley's story and she let me include it in the book.

[13:22]Lori Gottlieb: She wrote it because she has a child who has Down syndrome and she was writing about the experience, of what it's like when no matter what it is, whether it's you know, having a child with with a disability or having, you know, just something not work out the way that we expected it to work out and how we how we kind of make that shift. And she says that, you know, she likens it to you get on a plane and you're heading to Italy. Right? You're going you're you're so excited. You're gonna have this, like, beautiful vacation in Italy, and you think about all the food you're gonna eat and all the sights you're gonna see and, you know, everything that you're gonna do in Italy. And they've been waiting for this and waiting for this. And then the plane lands, and they say, excuse me. Slight change of plan. We actually landed in Holland. And we're not in Italy. And, you know, Holland was not where you expected to be. That was that wasn't the plan, and you're bummed. You know? You're like, wait a minute. I I had been planning to go to Italy, and I had this whole vision in my head of what Italy was supposed to be like and what that experience would be like for me. And I don't wanna be in Holland. This wasn't what I signed up for. I did not buy a ticket to Holland. But you're there. You're in Holland. And she talks about how first people are really discombobulated by the change in itinerary, but that you start to notice that, you know, Holland isn't this awful place, that there are Rembrandts and tulips and, you know, they're, like, beautiful things in Holland too. It's just different from Italy. And so in the book, there's a woman who goes on her honeymoon, she comes back and they had wanted to get pregnant right away and she feels something in her breast and the thing that she felt that she thought was a sign of pregnancy is actually a sign of cancer and ends up being a very treatable form of cancer. She gets through that just fine. And then six months later she gets her sign off scan so that she can get pregnant. It turns out that on the scan they find out that she has this very rare aggressive form of cancer unrelated to the first, they think, and it's untreatable and she is going to die. They don't know whether it's like a year or three years or ten years at the most, but wow, what a change in plans. A friend sends that to her and she's like, Screw you. This is not helpful to me. This is not the same thing. What she starts to realize is you don't have a choice, that whatever your reality is, have to find a way to see the things that are to find joy in your situation despite the fact that it's not what you signed up for. She does that, and she's no saint. She's not like I think we tend to of idealize cancer patients like, that person's so brave and she's a saint. She hated that. She's like, I am not brave. I'm scared of needles. I'm not it's like, what choice do I have here? She really did things in her life. She took risks all of a sudden that she would never have taken otherwise. She has this very deep relationship with her husband that they probably wouldn't have gone to these places. You know, would she have traded all that to not have cancer? Sure. But all of these other things happened that never would have. So I think Welcome to Holland helped her to, you know, approach the time that she had left in a very different way. And do you feel in your life there's a situation in which you wanted to go to Italy but ended up in Holland? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I would say the most obvious one is, you know, I had my son on my own and I never imagined doing that. I always imagined that I would have a child with I would have children with a partner. And when I was in my late thirties and I had gotten out of a relationship thinking about, well, if I meet someone, it would take x number of years before we knew, you know, or even if I met someone tomorrow. And so I decided I'm going to have a baby because I don't want to. I'd seen so many people wait too long to have children, and I didn't want to do that, which was a great decision. But at the same time, was Holland. It was in Italy in the sense that I wanted to do it with a partner, and I didn't have a baby with a partner. I had a baby on my own. So I would say that would be my Holland, you can see the great joy in that, that the best thing that could have happened was for me to have my son. But at the same time, it it looked different.

[21:05]Zibby Owens: And I loved how you talked in the book about how you arrived at that decision and the process you went through, including sort of propositioning some guy you had met at a networking conference at Earth Cafe. That was amazing.

[21:16]Lori Gottlieb: Yeah, it was my sperm donor date. Yeah, we went through that process of thinking that maybe he would donate sperm, and he was on board, and then he wasn't on board, and then I ended up getting the sperm that I wanted through the sperm bank. Your little George Clooney. Yes, they said he looked like a young George Clooney,

[21:37]Zibby Owens: and that was their selling point. So one of the patients who you wrote a lot about is John, who you find kind of annoying. And he's calling everybody an idiot all the time and even, like, orders food into your session, which I could not believe he did. I mean, I guess I could once I got to know him a little in the book. But as you said, when you were talking about him, you said this as the saying and he was talking about how his wife had was depressed, and he was actually upset by that, annoyed by that himself. And you said, as the saying goes, before diagnosing people with depression, make sure they're not surrounded by assholes. So I just was hoping you could talk to me a little bit more about maybe narcissistic personality disorder for anyone who's dealt with an asshole in their life and maybe what you should do if you happen to be in a relationship with somebody like that. Or how do you know if it's the people around you causing you to feel sad or and, you know, just depressed in general or if it's something inside yourself? Yeah. I should say, first of all, that one

[22:32]Lori Gottlieb: of the things that I felt was really important to do in the book was that I portrayed people the way that they presented themselves to me and same with me presenting myself to my own therapist. At the beginning of the book, the way that you feel about these people changes drastically by the end of the book, meaning, and as did, it mirrors my evolution with these people too, that at the beginning John was extremely unlikable. He was really abrasive, he was insulting to me, He certainly had narcissistic traits. But as I got to know him, I I always know that someone's behavior is their way of coping with something unmanageable to them, something painful to them. And in John's case, I'm not gonna spoil it, but, you know, there was something incredibly traumatic that he reveals later that explains some of why he protects himself by keeping everybody at a distance with his behavior. It's hard to get close to him because of his you know, the way he presents himself, and and that's by design for him. And so when we first meet him, you know, he and his wife are they they've had this sort of mutual tragedy in their lives, and they don't talk about it. And he is very upset that she kinda can't get past it and is very depressed. And he's kind of like, we're not gonna do this to our kids. We're not going to, like, be this couple who can't get past this tragedy. And so he kind of has the whole stiff upper lip attitude about it. And, you know, I think that she I imagine I, you know, I never met her, but I imagine that she felt very alone and and that's that can be really depressing. And, you know, he went through life kind of thinking that he was as a protection against his his mother had died when he was six, and he kinda thought it was his fault because of the circumstances of how it happened. And he protected himself by kind of he had been his mother's favorite and she always said he was so special and he went through life thinking, I'm so special. That was his way of going through the world. And so on top of not being able to meet his wife where she was with talking about her depression, he went through life thinking, Everybody else is an idiot and they're the cause of my problems and why can't they just do things this way? I think that for people who are with someone like that, it's really important that they really needed to be in couples therapy. There's a very nice place that they get to, which is really gratifying. But I think sometimes, going back to that quote from the book, that there are times when people will come in and they'll tell me something like, Oh, the problem is my boss or my mother or my partner or my child or whomever. And often, they're not looking at their own role in the situation. Often, they can't see that they're contributing to the situation, either in the way they respond to it or in the fact that they're still engaged in it. But other times, if you really are surrounded by assholes, that can be really depressing. And sometimes, like it's like remove yourself from the situation. Why are you why are you surrounding yourself with these people? Good good point.

[25:49]Zibby Owens: Can we go back to your son for a minute? Yeah. In one scene so you have a big breakup with boyfriend at the beginning of the book, which, you know, propels you to seek out your own therapist, and you have to tell your son that boyfriend is not gonna be around any longer, and he had become quite attached to him. Then you say and you're you're dealing with it in this wonderful way and, you know, as a therapist and also a mom. And you say the upside of being a therapist child is that nothing gets shoved under the rug. The downside is you'll be totally screwed up anyway. So I wanted to know what you feel about airing everything out with your like, having your kids be open with their feelings and really sort of getting into everything with them, like how much it helps? Or, like, what basically, what as a parent do you think is the most effective in helping out your kids have sort of great mental health? Yeah. So in terms of airing everything out, I, you know, I think it's letting your kids have their feelings, but that doesn't mean that I shared my feelings with him.

[26:46]Lori Gottlieb: So just for context, at the beginning of the book, my boyfriend and I were planning to get married, and he tells me that he has decided that he doesn't wanna live with a kid under his roof for the next ten years. And at the time, my son was eight, so, you know, and he had not been hiding in the closet the entire time that we were dating. And I my version of this story, and I very purpose fully say my version of the story, meaning I wasn't seeing a lot of things until I went to therapy. But my version of the story was, well, you know, clearly, he's a sociopath because, like, who dates someone for all this time just the day before says, oh, I just checked with my HR to make sure that when we get married, you know, I can get your son on my insurance policy and, you know, all this stuff, you know, that have been going on for a long time. You know, who does that? Who does that if they don't wanna be if they didn't want a parent after his kids were about to go to college? You know, if they don't wanna continue to be a parent who gets involved with someone who, when we first met, you know, has a six year old? I think that, you know, when when he did that, I I didn't tell my son, oh, look. He broke up with me because I didn't even say he broke up with me. I didn't say he broke up with me because he doesn't want a kid around. I said, we broke up. And there's a scene in the book where I explain it and he has a lot of questions. I tell the truth but I don't add details that are not going to be helpful for him to hear at that time. I think that it's really important that I didn't try to kind of cheer him up. You know, he was sad. He was grieving in his own way, but I wasn't like, hey. Let's go to Disneyland. You know? Hey. Let's go see that movie. You know? It was like he you know, our instinct as parents is that we want to it's hard for us to see our children in pain, and we want to take away their pain, but they need experience feeling their feelings and knowing that they will get through them. So he was going to have to be sad about this, and he was also going to know that I was available to him if he wanted support or to talk about it. And it wasn't one discrete conversation. It's not like when you talk about things, well, we had that conversation. That's over. You know, it it it's a process. And and, you know, feelings are like the weather. They they're like weather systems. They blow in. They blow out. You're gonna feel you know, there's gonna be a storm, and then the sun's gonna come out, and then it's gonna be cloudy, and then it's gonna be, you know, mild, and then it's gonna be cold. And so they're just weather systems. And so it's okay that, you know, he's feeling sad, and then he's with his friends and he's happy and then he that's what it's like. Then there are other times where we're gonna have many more conversations about it because those feelings are gonna blow back in. So I think that's what's important. Think so many times, especially nowadays, we're so afraid for our kids to experience any kind of discomfort that we try to make it more comfortable for them, and we're not really doing them a service by doing that.

[29:49]Zibby Owens: Totally. I have to keep that in mind with my kids. It's like Mhmm. I feel like I'm always trying to make everything better, but, you know, obviously, that's impossible.

[30:00]Lori Gottlieb: Well, I think too that they they know how to make things better in a lot of ways if they have support. So, you know, like a kid will come home from school and say, like, this happened at lunch today. You know? Mhmm. And the parents' instinct often is to say, well, why don't you tell her this? Or why don't you do this next time? As opposed to just letting the kid keep talking like, oh, yeah, that must have been hard. And then they'll say, yeah, and then they'll go on and then she did this and that. And then, well, what do you think was happening? You know, just asking them questions, and then they come up with their own solutions that that not only are probably better solutions than you would come up with because they know these people better and and and they know what they're doing. Like, you have to trust them. But, also, it's a better solution because they came up with it and it gives them agency that even if what they try doesn't work out so well, they know that they can try something else. When it does work out well, they know, they have the confidence to know that they are able to come up with a solution.

[31:05]Zibby Owens: That's so important for the many, many, many things that they will encounter throughout not only their schooling years, but also just in life when they graduate. Well, I have so many more questions, but I do wanna make sure to get to the process of how you write because I am really curious as to how long it took you to write this book and where you were. Like, do you write at home? Do you write in your therapy office? Like, I want you to paint a little picture for me of where you get all of this done and how you fit it in with the rest of the things in your life. Well, I'm sitting in that place right now, and it's not a pretty picture

[31:40]Lori Gottlieb: if people only knew. Only do therapy in my therapy office because when I write, I really want to be What I love about being in my therapy office is I work in a suite of therapists, and in between sessions you can go in the kitchen, you can talk to people, you see people in the hallways. It's social in that way and I need that. I love that. But when I'm writing, I need just complete privacy. So, yeah, I could close my door at the office, but I'm hearing voices when people leave their sessions, you know, just like there there are too many distractions. And so, I write at home and, you know, I take my writing days and that's what I do. So today, I have to write my TED Talk, actually. Oh, that's exciting. I'm a person who leaves the writing things generally for the last minute.

[32:33]Zibby Owens: So TED Talk is later so, today.

[32:37]Lori Gottlieb: You know, at home and that's where I write. My process is that I usually need a little warm up. I need to do something else first. I'm not like, I can just wake up and sit down and write. Like, I need to just kind of get loosen up a little bit. And so, you know, whether that's, like, replying to some emails or hanging out with my kid, depending on whether it's summer or not, you know, whatever it is. I like I'm I'm or I'm taking care of, like, other things that I need to take care of, bills or, you know, this is not, like, fun stuff, but just just I'm doing something else. And then all that is off my plate. I don't have to think about all the other things that I need to do that day, And then I can sit down and I can write. And you have this is now gonna be a TV show? Maybe you should talk to someone on TV?

[33:29]Zibby Owens: Yeah.

[33:30]Lori Gottlieb: It's being it's being developed for television, by Eva Longoria's company at twentieth Century Fox. So exciting. Yeah.

[33:39]Zibby Owens: And I saw, by by the way, on your website that now you actually offer yourself as an expert to other people, other TV shows and movies. And so now that you're doing your own, it's, like, the perfect thing. You're, like, gonna be, like, this total expert for yourself and your own show. Oh,

[33:54]Lori Gottlieb: I've always done that, actually. You know, like, I as I've I've consulted for shows before. You know, I think a lot of times they're looking for, well, what is the you know, can you tell me more about, for example, grief? Or Can you tell me more about teen depression? Whatever's going on in a certain show. The way that we had a consultant on ER who was an emergency room physician, the shows really want them to be accurate and they want to do a good job of portraying whatever they're portraying. Often they'll get experts to come in and say, tell me more about this or what would this be like or how would someone react in this situation.

[34:33]Zibby Owens: So one last thing. You're, like, probably the most prolific journalist I've ever, like, come across. You've written articles everywhere, and I was just wondering how you do that. Do you just have a zillion ideas all the time? Are you just always, like, jotting down notes for articles you wanna write? Or, like, tell me just a little two second thing about about that part of your life. Usually, there's something that I see going on in the culture that

[35:00]Lori Gottlieb: seems really obvious, like, you know, some examples are, you know, the how to land your kid in therapy, the thing about sex and marriage, you know, like and and egalitarian marriage. When I see something going on in the culture that everyone's talking about but no one has really thought about in a certain way, that's what I love to write. I love to say, Oh, this thing is going on. Everyone's talking about it, but nobody's really looking at it from this angle, and so I want to create the lens through which to look at this in a different way. And I think in my Dear Therapist column that I write every week, which is different from the features that I write Mhmm. You know, I think that's what I help people to do too is to say, hey. Here's you're you've got this problem. You're looking at it this way. I want you to look at it through this other lens, and I think that will help you. And are you working on any other books now? No. I'm still on I'm still this book is so new, and I'm still on book tour for a while with this book. And last question, do you have any advice to aspiring authors out there? One of the things that people often say to me is, you know, how did you how did you know you had a story? How did you know that, you know, your story was gonna be something that people would that would resonate so strongly with people? And I always say to people, Everybody has a story. That everybody has a story and that your story is inherently interesting. I think that's such an important thing for writers to think about because so often they try to make something up, which sometimes that's great. If you're writing fiction, obviously that's what you're doing. But I also think that it's based on something that you even if you're writing fiction, it's based on something in your experience, even if the characters look very different from your experience. That there's some emotional truth to the characters that you're writing or else you won't write a good novel. And so I think that there's something interesting in all of our lives and all of our stories, and the job of the writer is to tell it in a way that is real and raw and vulnerable and in terms of pacing and structure kind of makes sense to the reader so they can see why that story you know, because they kind see it as a mirror for themselves. One of the things I always say to writers too is don't tell the play by play of that scene. So so often people will say, like, here's the truth of my scene, and I'm like, oh my god. We you know, it's kind of like with the with the therapy room, like, you got the highlight reel, you know, like, you know, in in my book. You know, you didn't get the full fifty minutes every time that I was writing about a therapy session. You got the highlight reel. Here's what here were the important beats in the story, and you're getting them. You're getting them as they really happened. You're getting the authentic version of it, but I'm not giving you every single line that was spoken. Right. That makes sense.

[37:48]Zibby Owens: Well, awesome. Thank you so much, Laurie, for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books, and also for your fantastic book. Well, thank you so much. It was such a fun conversation. And by the way, my therapist, like, loved it. I just wanted to say that.

[38:01]Lori Gottlieb: I'm so glad. I've been hearing that a lot.

[38:05]Zibby Owens: All right. Well, thanks so much. Have a great day. Take care. Okay. Thanks

[38:21]Zibby Owens: and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.